The Hip Hop/Rap Thread

I tend to like almost all facets of rap today - both commercial and underground. Some cats out here like to disparage commercial acts, but sometimes I feel like people have a problem with these acts simply because they're popular. You know who I'm talking about - the so-called hip-hop 'purists' who only listen to cats like Aesop Rock, Necro, and Immortal Technique (among others). Nevermind that these cats don't have the kind of swagger or image to make it in the rap game even if they completely sold out and tried to make the same music say....Nelly makes.

Music is a business and when it's a business, businessmen are always going to cater to what sells - music that bangs in the clubs and that gets females dancing. Besides....I don't care who you are, if you can't enjoy a well-crafted club or party track you probably are a virgin.

At the end of the day, it's entertainment and there's gonna be different strokes for different folks.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Thanks for rewording my last sentence because it needed that much clarification.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

T.I. - Still Ain't Forgave Myself
Tonedeff - Porcelain

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I can't listen to older hip-hop because I've found that with the exception of a select few gems, the production values of hip-hop sucked majorly before 1992. It just doesn't sound good to me.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

The real reason why people aren't open to underground hip-hop is because 98 percent of 'underground' rappers don't know how to make hot songs.

It's not that people got anything against so-called 'conscious' hip-hop, it's that most underground rappers sound fucking horrible. Their beats suck, their flows and deliveries suck, their hooks are completely uncatchy and thus forgettable, and they just sound unpolished as all fuck.

Guys like Kanye West and Lupe Fiasco get their fair share of radio play because they understand the concept of making good songs.

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Ahh, BUT, Listen to Immortal Technique, Or Pitch Black Or Jedi Mind tricks EVEN Mf Doom and MF Grimm or Even Binary Star. They ALL have ill beats.

I've heard all these people. To me, these people's beats suck the wang.

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Are you seriously citing Kanye West as a decent beat maker?

Yes. He's one of my top five producers, actually.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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Now; enlighten me if you will, "Flowman", what exactly constitutes a "hot song"?

A hot song is hot in all aspects - the beat is stellar, the rhymes are awe-inspiring, and the hook is absolutely infectious - you cannot get it out of your head.

There's a reason why a lot of emcees like MF Doom, Immortal Technique, and others will never see mainstream success: They make music that is almost intentionally dull, drab, and unlistenable to by the average consumer. From the beats to the rhymes to the hook, the songs these artists make are inherently weak.

And while you can fall back upon the 'it's just your opinion', you gotta realize that I'm pretty deeply entrenched in the music industry. I know what the fuck I'm talking about regarding this. It doesn't mean that these artists will have to dumb down their lyrics and make a carbon-copy club track on par with "Laffy Taffy" or "Lean Wit It, Rock Wit It." It does, however, mean that they will have to step up their songwriting game.

For example - take the entire QN5 Music roster: Tonedeff, Pack FM, Cunninlynguists, Session, and a few others.

I know Tone personally and Deacon is one of the reasons I started spitting rhymes in the first place. I've heard unreleased material from these guys that if it ever got the mainstream exposure it would simply blow the fuck up.

But when it comes to putting out an album, what do these guys do? They go completely abstract. Tonedeff sabotages himself by putting out a song like "Politics" out as the first 'single' and wonders why he's 'slept on' by the music industry. Deacon and Kno proceed to release an album that is good, but has nothing that is marketable whatsoever - and despite the critical acclaim they receive, they really have nothing to show for it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about regarding these rappers - they either don't have the ability to create a song that appeals to anything other than a niche market or they refuse to in the name of 'art.'

So no, these guys that are stuck in the underground are going to stay that way because they aren't complete as artists.

FELIPE NO

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Plus, you really make it a point to make it sound like the underground is a bad place to be. Why?

I don't know about other people's motivations, but I'm in this game for two main reasons:

1. To be heard by as many people as possible.
2. To make money.

The underground is the antithesis to this.

I hear a lot of these underground emcees whine and moan about how the cats who are out there in the game suck and aren't 'real hip-hop' and I just laugh. When I listen to these underground niggas and then I listen to more commercial niggas, the difference is night and day - underground emcees just don't have the proper sound to make it.

I want you people to think for a second...

Give Immortal Technique the same promotional budget as say.....Young Joc and see who is more successful.

Immortal Technique makes music that only appeals to a small amount of people. Furthermore, this nigga's songmaking ability is pathetic. In short, the nigga simply isn't pleasant to listen to for most people.

Music is a business. I don't have time to play around and see how many multisyllablic rhyme schemes I can put together. I'm out to make music that people will enjoy and are willing to purchase. Most of these cats in the underground are just playing around. If they were serious, they'd stop making that bullshit.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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it IS possible to make money on an independent label.

No shit. Talk to Percy Miller, Baby and Slim Williams, and Micheal Watts.

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yes, music is a business. but to some people its more than a business. apparently you cant understand this.

I understand it better than anyone on this board ever will.

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I remember a time when people made music because it was about the music. Hip-hop became the cash-whore that it is because of cats like you, plain and simple. It's a business, yes; but it doesn't make it a soul-swap meet.

Who the fuck do you think you're talking to? I've poured more time and money into this shit than you can even fathom. I haven't sold my soul for shit. I live, breathe, sleep, and eat music. I am, however, about making music that people want to listen to. I'm about making quality music that stands up against anything on the radio right now but is still lyrically creative. I am of the belief that you can still produce commercially-viable music without dumbing yourself down and the success me and my labelmates are having with a major label at this very moment is proof of it.

Getting money with this music shit isn't selling your soul and I'm insulted that you would insinuate that is is.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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And yet, the artists who you quote as having this pontifical lyrical prowess can't stop rapping about woodgrain, spinners and premium gasoline.

Yes, because an artist is completely defined by the single the label decides to release.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

All I'm saying is.....for every "24s" there's a "Still Ain't Forgave Myself." For every "Turn It Up" there's a "Think I'm Crazy." For every "Hot In Herre" there's a "N Dey Say".

You seem to have it in your mind that because mainstream artists write about cars, bitches, clothes, etc. for their singles that they are incapable or unwilling to write about other subjects and that's simply not true.

You can't judge an artist solely on his singles.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I'm willing to agree to disagree. When I listen to 95 percent of the underground, regardless of what they're talking about, I feel completely unmoved. I take into account the entire performance. Sure, there are some gems here and there, but by and large, the whole 'underground artists can convey a human feeling better' is iffy at best to me.

Simply put, I feel that if you put any of your favorite underground artists up against any current mainstream artist on an equal playing field (media exposure, marketing budgets, no. of units shipped first week, etc.) that the underground artists simply wouldn't measure up based on the strength of their music.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

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You obviously equate Talent with mainstream success

I equate talent based on what sounds good. Most underground music sounds like total garbage.

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You probably one of those cat's who think T.I " King" is the dopest album of 06 so far, don't ya?

Not the dopest, but one of the top three hip-hop albums this year, for sure. Of course, you disagree since you think that anyone who can sell records to a lot of people somehow sucks and is a sell out.

You can throw at me all this nonsense about integrity, but it's all bullshit. You don't have to be a sellout to make music that is marketable.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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NP, can you honestly tell me T.I. (and whoever the hell else is making these "hot" tracks) has any lyrical talent at all?

Yes, of course, what the fuck? T.I. is one of the sickest in the game with it.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

See, this is the kind of shit that pisses me off.

Why do I gotta have some kind of sinister motivations or be some kind of retard to think T.I. is one of the best emcees spitting right now?

You don't like T.I., obviously. OH FUCKING WELL. What I eat doesn't make you shit.

FELIPE NO

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Yeah, but since you lack of sense of smell, you can't notice that your shit stank up the joint.

This coming from a person with AESOP ROCK in his signature.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Aesop Rock holds far more integrity as an emcee who can chain together sixteen syllable words endlessly and yet say not A GODDAMN THING AT ALL.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

You guys got some serious hate in your blood. Granted, "What You Know" isn't the most lyrical song in existence, that track is a bonafide banger.

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BUT to say Aesop is pointless shows that you don't understand his lyrics.

Oh, I understand his lyrics just fine - they're just so needlessly abstract that I don't find them enjoyable to listen to.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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You see, your ability to absorb the lyrics is directly proportional to understand why they're so abstract. If you don't find them enjoyable to listen to on THAT premise, then there's a fatal flaw in your personality.

You got me fucked up, kid. I don't like people who spit lyrics like that. I hear them, I understand them, but I don't find it particularly enjoyable. T.I. could spit the same shit and I'd be like "....This nigga is trippin'..."

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Dawg, you're crazy. T.I. shits on Aesop as a lyricist.

How ya doing, buddy?

I don't like grills very much, actually.

I was speaking idiomatically.

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T.I. is the simplest of lyricists. T.I. knows nothing of the concepts in hip hop and if he does, He only knows the basics of rapping. I don't know if it's just me but any song i've heard of his he can barely keep his flow going and he can barely keep his overall interest level in anyone's attention. His hook's are terrible and his whole style is just made to sell.

Have you ever even LISTENED to a T.I. album?

I mean, I can only laugh when I read your post. I can't even take you seriously anymore. Aesop Rock is a fucking horrible emcee. Yeah, he's got some nice rhyme schemes and shit, but his delivery, flow, mic presence, production, and overall charisma and swagger are fucking pathetic.

Don't you dare try and pull this 'you don't understand the concepts of hip-hop' bullshit if you have the audacity to sit here and tell me Aesop Rock is better than T.I. in any aspect of the art.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I guess it's all based on what you value in an emcee.

Me, I like someone who has the total package - they got the lyrics, the delivery, the flow, the mic presence, and the swagger. T.I., to me, has all of these qualities. He isn't the greatest technical lyricist (i.e. crazy multisyllablic rhyme schemes), but he isn't simple either.

Aesop Rock, on the other hand, has crazy schemes and some tight track concepts, but I just can't get into his music. It's not always about what you say, but how you say it. Aesop Rock is one of those cats to me that has the lyrics, but not the other qualities necessary to make him listenable to a wide audience.

FELIPE NO

Did it look like I was talking to you, bitch nigga? No. Resume shutting the fuck up.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

In other news - I just listened to the new Field Mob album, Lightpoles & Pine Trees, and that album is hot as hell. Of course, with these guys being part of Ludacris' label, Disturbing the Peace, it's got commercial-type tracks on it, but these guys are lyrical as hell. If you like punchilnes, they got 'em. If you like concepts, they got 'em. Standout tracks to me are "My Wheels", "Smile", "Blacker The Berry", and "At the Park."

Jam it back in, in the dark.