Microsoft Podcast Discusses HD-DVD/Blu-Ray

**To Mods: Not really sure where to post this; I don't feel it belongs in the computer hardware section, as it doesn't apply to computers at the moment. So it was either Media Centre or Microsoft Section. Move it if you feel it's in the wrong place.**

Yea, this is from last week but I think it's pretty interesting, especially for those who aren't in the know about both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

Yes, I know most will think this is a biased discussion, considering it's from Microsoft and all. However, this podcast from Major Nelson has some respected authortities in the field, such as Amir Majidimehr, who's a regular poster in the AVS Forums, which is a highly-regarded website for video/audiophiles.

It's a very interesting discussion though, as it explains the differences between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray's media storage, compression methods, bitrates, etc.

It's a good education to learn what some of the lingo tossed around means, and it might help you become a better-informed consumer.

I just figured I'd post it here since it is a Microsoft podcast after all, and the 360's eventual HD-DVD player will reap the benefits of the format.

Major Nelson Podcast About HD-DVD

How ya doing, buddy?

Of course Microsoft are biased; they have already decided which side they are on in this format war. However, that doesn't make the technical information on offer any the less interesting. I just hope that there hasn't been any spin put on it.

Face it, Blu-Ray can't win. When was the last time that a media format backed by Sony won a format war? Betamax videotapes, Minidiscs, UMD, Memory stick... they've all been second-string players.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

The format war will likely have many such well known individuals siding with one format or the other. This is just a reiteration of information everyone who cares to know knows about already.

I am at a loss for what this thread is actually about though. What are we to discuss? The podcast itself?

How ya doing, buddy?

Really, I had posted this as a source of info for those who aren't up to snuff on the whole Blu-Ray/HD-DVD issue itself. I felt the podcast was a good source of info, and the guests do explain what HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are capable of.

It'll always boil down to which formats better; and at the moment, HD-DVD is winning. As is said in the podcast, Blu-Ray is only using 25GB Single-Layer discs; add that to the various botch-jobs they've had on transfers thus far (such as The Fifth Element and House of Flying Daggers), things aren't looking so well in their camp at the moment.

Either way, I haven't found a specific thread on here pertaining to the formats, so I guess this can be considered a discussion on that topic as well. But yea, I'm curious to hear thoughts/opinions on HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Perhaps one of you guys have purchased one of the players and can give a hands-on opinion?

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

I've seen an HD-DVD running Serenity before, but that's about all I've got for hands on experience. RIght now it's not worth the investment. When more titles worth owning start showing up and looking really DAMN nice, then I'll consider it. Right now 1000 bucks to watch the only good movie on the format available up here (Serenity) is just not worth it.

If they start putting TV shows on this new format though, I might have to jump on it. Imagine entire seasons being 2 discs instead of 5 to 7. That'd be nice.

Anyway, do you mind if I request this be moved to Hardware? Seeing as how the 360 will not be using HD-DVD for games, it's not like it's really Xbox-related.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Colonel Skills: Yea sure. I guess it might actually be better fitted on that section either way.

I think you're mistaken though; it's the Samsung Blu-Ray player that is $1,000 at the moment. The Toshiba HD-DVD Player is $500 and Serenity is only on HD-DVD. That is a good movie as far as PQ is concerned though.

I've seen some demos of HD-DVD movies, and so far, the best ones as far as picture quality is concerned are Phantom of the Opera, Blazing Saddles, Constantine, and Chronicles of Riddick. See one of those playing, and you'll really see the true potential of what HD-DVD has to offer.

I recently saw a Blu-Ray demo at my local Best Buy, and I must say that i was completely underwhelmed. Though it was running on HDMI and on 1080p, the picture completely lacked any definition and was far too soft. If anything, it matched the quality of what I see on my HD channels over-the-air. Nice, yes. But I'm expecting much much more, as over-the-air HD is riddled with compression artifacts and macroblocking when there are motion scenes; Blu-Ray shouldn't have that at all, and it did from what I saw.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Yeah I listened to the whole thing and remain convinced that HD-DVD is the better format. And unfortunately, if more studios don't get on board with HD-DVD, the inferior format will still end up on top. However, it is important to note that neither format is even worth spending a penny on for at least another year or two.

FELIPE NO

Those listening in on the podcast might want to take a look at the interview with "video calibration expert Joe Kane." He couldn't have been more right about Sony in that interview.

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-320.html

Now, I despise Sony as much as the next guy but the reason why Blu-ray titles look inferior to HD at the moment is because they're using MPEG2 rather than VC-1 which is what HD-DVD using. Sony has clearly lost it's mind to think that MPEG2 can look equal or better than VC-1. Also not to mention that Sony themselves are known to deliver poor transfers overall. I took a look at Blu-ray first hand at my local BB and unfortunately at the time, Ultraviolet was playing and if you need proof it's there. While the video was playing on a 1080p Samsung 62" DLP, the video itself was not forgiving. One pretty bad transfer and definitely not something you want to showcase when trying to sell a $1000 player. Artifacts shouldn't even appear for movie that was released less than a year ago. Once Sony gets there act together and releases the 2nd generation of Blu-ray titles then we'll be able to fairly compare the two but at $499, you'll be hard pressed to pass the offer of a Toshiba HD-A1. I plan on grabbing one come November and hopefully WB will release a reference HD-DVD disc in which I seriously hope it turns out to be Superman Returns.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

HD-DVD simply does not stand a chance at this point. It simply comes down to support of each format.

First off, and I'm going to bold this because I'm sick of seeing it:
BLU-RAY IS NOT A SONY PROPRIETARY FORMAT.
Blu-Ray is an open format standard(just like CD is) which was developed and is partially owned by the following companies:

Apple Computer, Inc.
Dell Inc.
Hewlett Packard Company
Hitachi, Ltd.
LG Electronics Inc.
Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
TDK Corporation
Thomson Multimedia
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Pictures
Warner Bros. Entertainment


With that said, 90% of the movie industry supports Blu-Ray where 20% (there is some overlap due to some movie companies supporting both formats) supports HD-DVD. Not only that but only a single company, Toshiba is currently manufacturing HD-DVD players and no plans from other manufacturers have been announced. So in terms of both hardware and software support, Blu-Ray is far and above HD-DVD.

The other issue is Toshiba is already showing signs of defeat. They are frantically pushing for a hybrid format. The reason for this is Toshiba realizes they simply do not have the financial resources to fight Blu-Ray. Look at the line-up of companies that support Blu-Ray. Apple, Dell and HP computers will come with Blu-Ray drives, not HD-DVD. Every major home electronics manufacturer save for Toshiba will be making Blu-Ray players, not HD-DVD players. And finally the three largest in the movie industry: Disney, Warner Brothers and Sony Pictures are founding BDA members. Even with major help from Microsoft and Intel, they simply cannot compete with the corporate lineup Blu-Ray has.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

While that may not be entirely true, I do believe we'll see more HD-DVD players in the near future. Also I honestly don't see your average Joe plunking down $1000 on a BD player anytime soon. I'm still hoping Samsung pulls through and makes that universal HD/BD player we've been reading about in the past months.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm with cetra there, with this corporate line-up the hd-dvd must be really darn good to win this fight for now (yeah for now, who know if this may change later on)

and trying to justify a poor quality with Ultraviolet as an exemple is really stupid, because this movie has the poorest CGI-video quality lately >.>

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

No matter how much support Blu-ray has, it will only thrive if the product sells. Now obviously a wider selection of films is in order, but that doesn't matter until they are available for sale. Also, some of HD-DVDs advantages may catch on with consumers in ways that the big companies don't expect. At the moment, HD-DVD has come out a lot stronger than Blu-ray, though this won't mean much in the long run. It's going to be at least a year before we can get a good idea of who is going to win the format war.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Inhert

and trying to justify a poor quality with Ultraviolet as an exemple is really stupid, because this movie has the poorest CGI-video quality lately >.>

Yes, Ultraviolet isn't what you'd call reference material, but a movie such as The Fifth Element, which was of reference quality when it hit DVD (and is still considered to be), should show off the supposed benefits of what Blu-Ray has to offer. Unfortunately, the transfer is marred with extreme artifacts, noise, screen dirt, and edge enhancement. In other words, you're better off with the old Superbit release of the movie.

Now this especially bummed me out, as this movie is a fine example of the use of color in film. Also, the unique visual style of the movie should lend itself nicely to High-Definition. If anything, the fact that this movie was encoded with MPEG-2 seems to be the main culprit, as the small 25GB space on the current discs was what lead to the transfer being so bad. I can just see it now though...Sony being lazy with this transfer just for the sole reason of double-dipping the movie later on to be on a "Blu-Ray Superbit" type BD. After all, the movie itself has already been released on DVD 3 or 4 times now.

I really hope they didn't screw up the transfer for Terminator 2. Now that would be a crime.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Kaleb.G

No matter how much support Blu-ray has, it will only thrive if the product sells. Now obviously a wider selection of films is in order, but that doesn't matter until they are available for sale. Also, some of HD-DVDs advantages may catch on with consumers in ways that the big companies don't expect. At the moment, HD-DVD has come out a lot stronger than Blu-ray, though this won't mean much in the long run. It's going to be at least a year before we can get a good idea of who is going to win the format war.

It's not just a matter of support, we're also talking ownership. Those companies I've listed have a lot of money tied up in Blu-Ray investments. They aren't just going to sit around and let their investment go to waste and they are even less likely to switch over to HD-DVD even if HD-DVD is clearly ahead.

We're going to be dealing with a forced switch really soon here. I know people like to think the consumer has the real power but this really isn't true. Consider each new generation of consoles. The companies pretty much abandon the old consoles and the consumer pretty much has the choice of either adopting the new generation or not buying games at all. Total boycott of their favorite pastime is very unlikely. The same will most likely happen with Blu-Ray and if you consider the enormous industry support both on the hardware and software side it is clear Blu-Ray has the ability to force this switch. HD-DVD on the other hand has to convince people that they want the product which is a huge disadvantage if you are in a race to establish your format as the new standard.

Now it is correct that HD-DVD is the better option out of the gate. But make no mistake, Blu-Ray is a superior format in nearly ever aspect. HD-DVD is pretty much at its reasonable maximum capacity. Sure they still have double sided or triple layer options, but it is doubtful they will be used much if not at all. The main reason is current HD-DVD movies are maxing out the transfer rate of HD-DVD discs. This means it is impossible for HD-DVD to use a higher VC-1 bitrate than it currently is and more space will only equal more content, not higher quality transfers. So in other words HD-DVD has pretty much reached its maximum potential.

Blu-Ray on the other had is pretty much at its current minimum potential. Dual layer 50 GB discs are just around the corner and triple layer Blu-Ray discs are actually cheaper than HD-DVD discs. Secondly Blu-Ray is currently only using MPEG-2. The big reason for this was because the movie companies were not convinced of the reliability of available tools to do MPEG-4 or VC-1 transfers. Another BIG thing to consider is Blu-Ray is using a 1.5x transfer rate standard. This means Blu-Ray has a 54mbps transfer rate compared to HD-DVDs 36mbps transfer rate. This also means Blu-Ray can offer VC-1 encoded content at a higher bitrate than HD-DVD translating to higher quality video which HD-DVD will technically never be able to match Blu-Ray picture quality.

So yeah, Blu-Ray has some catching up to do which isn't surprise since it is new technology. However the support behind the format as well as the technology benefits Blu-Ray has over HD-DVD guarantee Blu-Ray is going to become the new standard.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Okay time to chime in once more.
Sony at the moment stands to lose a large amount if the BD camp should decide abandon MPEG2 completely for AVC or heck even VC-1. Now who stands to gain here, MSFT. Royalties I believe plays a big part in this format war so I don't necessarily see Sony jumping ship with all those backers. This can only explain as to why Sony stuck it out with MPEG2. They cash in on license fees, seeing as they are part of MPEG-LA. The absolute last thing Sony will ever do is admit defeat and do what is in the best interest of a competitor (MSFT).

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by T1249NTSCJ

Okay time to chime in once more.
Sony at the moment stands to lose a large amount if the BD camp should decide abandon MPEG2 completely for AVC or heck even VC-1. Now who stands to gain here, MSFT. Royalties I believe plays a big part in this format war so I don't necessarily see Sony jumping ship with all those backers. This can only explain as to why Sony stuck it out with MPEG2. They cash in on license fees, seeing as they are part of MPEG-LA. The absolute last thing Sony will ever do is admit defeat and do what is in the best interest of a competitor (MSFT).

I was using VC-1 just as a side by side comparison. H.264 is a superior compression format and will more than likely be used over VC-1 in Blu-Ray.

Also would you please stop equating Blu-Ray to Sony! It is driving me nuts. And also the royalties for VC-1 use and MPEG2 are paid by the movie companies. Sony does not have the power in the Blu-Ray format for force movie companies to use MPEG2 over a different compression format with Blu-Ray. It was a choice made completely by the movie companies to release the first wave of Blu-Ray movies using MPEG2 over VC-1 or h.264.

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