Mac VS. Windows Laptop?

I could google search this but it's nothing without the views of actual people. I'd prefer the opinion of you guys here cause I have no idea what's going on...

I've had my laptop for quite a while now and while it's still great, it's starting to show its age. Not only physically, but it's a sign when you start gawking at other laptops and fantasize about coming home to this CORE DUO, MEGATON RAM + GRAPHICS CARD BUSTER piece of hardware.

...GETTING TO THE TOPIC!


Recently, I've been eying Macs a lot. Perhaps it's the sleek, white design of the notebook, but lately I've had a desire to own one. If I had the money, I wouldn't jump into buying though, cause I have NO IDEA about Macs.

For those who've experienced both kinds of laptops:
- Which one would you prefer?
- What are the pros and cons with both OS's?
- Which one would be better for running really power intensive programs, such as AutoCAD and other programs of the sort?
- Is it true that with some programs, you sometimes have to find Mac-specific versions? What's up with that?



As always, thanks in advance for advice, and if the thread doesn't comply by rules, can delete. YO!

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Quote:

Perhaps it's the sleek, white design of the notebook

Black MacBook looks much better, but white is okay if you have bad taste.

Originally Posted by chaofan

Is it true that with some programs, you sometimes have to find Mac-specific versions? What's up with that?

You have to use Mac-specific versions of all programs. Windows programs naturally don't work in OS X, just like Linux programs don't work in Windows. It's a different operating system. However, if you need some Windows programs that aren't available on Mac, you can just use a Windows emulator like Parallels Desktop. It works very well, you can open it in another window while working in OS X, or you can boot right into Windows and use it like a normal Windows laptop.

I've used a MacBook for some half a year now, and well, OS X is nice, what else can I say. It works well, but frankly so does Windows unless you're an idiot. OS X is prettier though. The best part about MacBook is not the software, but the laptop itself. It's very nicely designed and just looks good, unlike 95% of other laptops. It's also very sturdy, I've had virtually zero problems with it so far, whereas my previous laptop just had one after another (non-working USB ports, keys getting flimsy and falling off, overheating, touchpad problems).

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by chaofan

Is it true that with some programs, you sometimes have to find Mac-specific versions? What's up with that?

Honestly, if you have to ask this question, you should just seriously stop considering Mac laptops.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I've always been a PC user, I'm typing on my PC desktop now, but I can't recommend Mac laptops enough. I bought one for school, so I got $100 off, and it pretty much just works. The school I'm starting is hard and intensive and I didn't want to have to worry about if my computer was working properly or if my OS was set up as I like it (it takes me a lot of time to tinker with Windows to get it just right). I just turned it on and I was pretty much done. I just needed something that works.

As for programs, I dunno. Whichever ones you use exclusively you might want to see if they make Mac versions for or ask someone knowledgeable about computing in your field if they know how well a Mac would work.

How ya doing, buddy?

My experience with MacBook users:
They only buy a Mac because of the design and tend to have even fewer knowledge about their system than the average windows user.
If something breaks they're just as helpless as everyone else.

@Parallels: I advice against using it: Why? Because it uses part of Wine's sourcecode and and it took a lot of time to get to the points where the developers admitted it and released the modified source.
That's ripping off the Wine people who do their job for free. And I really don't like that kind of attitude.

me: Using a Dell Inspiron which works for me. I can do everything I need to do. Browse the net, office work, LaTeXing, coding, listening to music, watching movies, etc.
The system is not a gaming machine but I never intended it to be one. gfx chipset is integrated, so it's rather slow compared to current gfx accelerators on the market. But personally I advice against using a laptop as gaming machine.
1) you don't get the fast desktop equipment for your laptop
2) the fast laptop equipment if expensive and draws power en masse
3) fast laptop equipment produces a lot of heat and heat transfer is always the main problem with laptops

Anf besides the different OS a Mac-machine is nothing special anymore. Only generic x86-hardware with some unique design that doesn't appeal to me (but I rarely buy hardware because of the design *g*).

How ya doing, buddy?

It really depends what you want out of your laptop. You could go the route of a cheap Windows laptop that's going to last you another year or two. Or you could get a really expensive Windows laptop that's going to last you three. Or you could get a high-end Mac that's going to cost around the same amount as a high-end Windows machine that's going to work for you for 4-5 years before it's going to be outdated. I've had my G4 powerbook for 3 years now, and it's still outclassing and outperforming many friends windows machines that are 1-2 years newer. You do pay a bit more for the product, but Apple doesn't put cheap parts in its machines, and it really shows.

As far as worrying about software...you can run pretty much anything on the new intel macs using Parallels, bootcamp, or many of the other Windows emulators. And the system doesn't even struggle running two OSes at the same time (unlike the older powerPC versions of Macs). It's pretty amazing -- you basically get two computers for the price of one. It's a heck of a lot better than using a memory hog program like WindowBlinds to try and make your Windows desktop look like a Mac =P

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by Guru

As far as worrying about software...you can run pretty much anything on the new intel macs using Parallels, bootcamp, or many of the other Windows emulators. And the system doesn't even struggle running two OSes at the same time (unlike the older powerPC versions of Macs). It's pretty amazing -- you basically get two computers for the price of one.

Yeah, but if he's gonna buy the thing, and then stick to almost entirely Windows software, you just paid more than you should have for what is basically an okay Windows computer that, depending on how you have it setup, can't do some of the things he needs to do, and maybe even some of the things he might not do often, but might want to do.

One of the questions he had was how well it could run AutoCAD. AutoCAD, depending on the extent you use it, is a pretty beefy program. Maybe for small things, running it in Parallels or VMWare Fusion, it will be fine, but if you get to a large project, it's gonna bog down really fast. Virtualization is never for that purpose.

If he wants to play a system-intensive game that's only for Windows, that's just out the window, because hardware 3D support is just lacking. The best you'll get is software 3D rendering, which is taxing, to say the least.

And if you're going to run BootCamp to get into Windows constantly, that's just annoying, and also counter-intuitive to the entire reasoning for him to get a Mac in the first place.

The best I can say, from what's given, is if he needs it as a serious work machine, it just isn't going to work out. If he just wants one to fuck around with and has the money for it, just get a refurb system.

Quote:

It's a heck of a lot better than using a memory hog program like WindowBlinds to try and make your Windows desktop look like a Mac =P

The Mac OS X interface is incredibly inconsistent and is nothing worth copying.

FELIPE NO

What exactley do you mean by *outperform* though Guru?

Also, perhaps prices are a bit different down in the States, but up here in Canada i ran into the following scenario while choosing a laptop for my cousin.

Basically she wanted a MAC, and my Aunt whom was buying it for her uses them at work *newspaper graphics stuff*, so was gung ho to buy her one until she saw the price. A mid end Mac with 1Gb of Ram, 100gb hdd and Core2Duo 2.1 ghz went for $1399, with 2 year warranty and such. She asked me to go price out a Windows notebook, both cheaper and the same price to see what the difference is. Eventually I came up with:

Dell
AMD x2 2.0ghz cpu
2GB of Ram
120Gb hdd
And 3 year Complete Care package, basically meaning she could drop it, spill stuff on it etc.., and get a new one for three years.
All that came to $999 cdn *and could choose a colour outside of ugly white*

Now, as Macs pretty much use the same components as PC notebooks now, I don't see how a Mac can outperform a newer pc notebook unless you are referring to the OS.

There are too many arguements for the whole Windows vs Mac OS , and that isn't related to this thread.. yet. Unless you are out to use software that is specific to MAC though, I just can't see the point.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I just recently switched over (in February) from a Dell Inspiron 9100 to a Macbook Pro, and I've absolutely loved it. Parallels works very well for the odd time I need Windows, but frankly, I haven't had to go into it very often. Everything I needed I found an alternative for.

It's a work computer for me though - word processing and InDesign/publication work along with the odd game or two. If you need AutoCAD and other such programs though, I'd be cautious about a Mac unless you want to BootCamp it.

Still, the build quality is great. Couldn't be more satisfied with the machine. The machine with all the software (including Office Student and Teacher) cost me about $2,600, which is no small sum. It's a lot less if it's not a Pro though, which is what I got.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

You should be aware that Parallels Workstation, VMWare Fusion, et cetera, are Type 2 Hypervisors. Guest operating systems run on a very thin software layer that leverages hardware virtualization support from Intel (VT-x) and AMD (AMD-V). There is no instruction translation, and as a result the virtual machines are very efficient. Typical working environments will incur only a 3-6% overhead penalty running on the hypervisor, with an over 80% native performance rate for intensive work. You can also get Direct X 8.1 support for 3D graphics acceleration, and multiple processor support with VMWare. You just need to remember that you'll need to have enough resources available for both the guest operating system and the host operating system. This includes lots of memory, and not trying to run CPU heavy tasks in both environments at once.

I have a friend that uses AutoCAD regularly under Parallels (he runs his own architecture and design firm), and its very fast for him. He's claimed that its more responsive that running on his old Dell Inspiron notebook.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Basically in simple terms, there is little performance lost while using processors that support it *Intel-vtx and AMD-V*, but you are still slightly limited by the emulated hardware *restricted to dx8.1, although i've heard rumors of a company coming out with full dx support*, and limited to the fact that your hardware must support two OS's, so you have to split up the resources.

I am still however asking why you would purchase a MAC, only to run window's stuff in a Virtual Machine. If the MAC used some secret hardware that made it faster than pc notebooks sure, but they don't.

Most amazing jew boots

Originally Posted by chaofan

Recently, I've been eying Macs a lot. Perhaps it's the sleek, white design of the notebook, but lately I've had a desire to own one. If I had the money, I wouldn't jump into buying though, cause I have NO IDEA about Macs.

Go find an Apple store or a Mac user near you with relatively modern hardware and play with OS X. Ask an experienced user to show you around the OS. Be aware that if you buy a Mac, you will be using different software than you're used to. For me personally, I like a lot of it better than the apps that I used to use on Windows, but that's because I prefer the OS X design and apps that conform to it.

If you need AutoCAD a lot, don't bother. There's no native version of it for OS X so you'd be running it virtualized. It's not slow, but buying a Mac when your livelihood is AutoCAD is kinda like buying a hammer when you've got a bunch of shiny screws.

Now, if you have a main desktop to do AutoCAD on and want a Mac laptop for portability/to find out about the platform, that's a different story—I'd say go for it.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Aardark

Black MacBook looks much better, but white is okay if you have bad taste.

There's black?

Anyways, I'm asking about Macs cause the OS seemed pretty cool. I've played around with it and it feels really nice. Shame about the AutoCAD though... I'll need it a lot for architecture... Also, do you Mac users find yourself using Parallel (or whatever it's called) a lot?

So basically (to dumb it down to my level) there's no difference in terms of performance. Without the OS's, both Macs and Window notebooks are the same. Is that a reasonable conclusion?

I was speaking idiomatically.

You can also use Bootcamp, which is just duo booting windows. But then, if you are going to buy a mac and only use windows on it, don't.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I use Parallels when I need it - which is turning out to be much less than I anticipated. I just have no real need to go into Windows I've learned. The only reason I really keep Parallels is because I have a Dell printer which is incompatible with OSX.

Otherwise though, I've been thrilled with most of the applications OSX ships with - Mail, iCal, iChat, Address Book, and Dashboard have turned into necessities for me.

FELIPE NO

The MacOS isn't nearly as system taxing to run as people may be used to from a Windows machine. Running programs in Parallels or Bootcamp really does not bog down that much unless you're running equally intensive programs in MacOS at the same time. But that's just the same as running two intensive programs under Windows at the same time, which isn't really that great of an idea to begin with.

It's completley feasible to run AutoCAD smoothly in a virtual environment, as ElectricSheep pointed out. And it's likely that here before the end of the year, there is going to be Dx10 support.

Another thing to consider is that the growth of the Mac marketshare is inreasing fairly significantly, and software developers are making more of their productivity applications multiplatform, and most major game releases are available for Macs (at least most of the games worth playing, though some are delayed a month or two behind the PC release).

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I vote for buying a Mac notebook. The best part about it is, you get the best of both worlds because of boot camp.

I've used the MacBook Pro for video editing with Final Cut Pro, and then later rebooted into Windows and played Day Of Defeat and Company of Heroes. Not only that, but the build and the magnetic power supply plug are lifesavers. This thing has gone through a nasty milk spill, and other padded drops with no issues at all.

I've also used a Macbook for dual booting, and one of my co-workers (very non-computer literate) uses his Macbook exclusively with Windows via Boot camp, and he has no issues whatsoever. We boot to OSX with his computer for other uses and it does perfectly well for that use as well.

That's the beauty of the Mac, you get the best of both worlds. If you know how to use both, or even one, than you will get your moneys worth.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I cannot really lean either way, saying you'll get the best of both worlds, or the worst.

OS-wise, in the end, I WILL vouch for OS X 10.4 over XP and/or Vista. It is more appealing to me, visually. For my work, it helps me efficiently. Whoa, wait. I can do my designing work on a PC too. Doesn't matter. My university will have Mac AND Dell laboratories for students who wish to edit their animations, render image sequences with Maya, blah blah, etc. What really matters for that kind of thing is a really WELL sized monitor (24+ inches) and power-hardware. Well, then there's availability of programs, like Final Cut Pro. However, given that I'm a Visual Development/Illustration student, I don't make "movies," and I could do fine producing Storyboard Animatics with Adobe After Effects.

Now you see, to start complaining about mac laptops. I've had one for +2 years, and every several months something will break. The battery was replaced. The power supply was replaced because it fried, and Apple admitted this to be a common problem with the Powerbook G4 Aluminum series. The hinges supporting the LCD screen weren't properly adjusted, and Apple admitted this to be a common problem with that Aluminum series of laptops. When the notebook was shipped in for verification (during the battery's death), the top-case had to be replaced because of internal heat expanding the metal rims. There has been a +$1400 spending on repairs for this shitty Powerbook G4 laptop.

In addition, my IRL friend Kurado (Mudkips.....), has a black powerbook G4 laptop. His LCD screen is showing a huge and black "tornado-like" shape across the monitor because it was improperly installed, and Apple doesn't have LCD screen warranty services (like Dell does with their "accidental whatever" plan? It's just a way for them to suck an addition $200 bucks). Anywho, for any case of LCD screen repair it's about +$350. I still don't have the aluminum G4's screen repaired just so I can think that all that money could have gone to a new computer by this point. It was purchased during August of 2005.

There was a series of the iMac G5s that had "commonly known-of" logic board problems. Only one month after purchasing the G5 back in X-mas of 2004, the whole display went on fritz. The computer was taken into an Apple-certified repair store and it was determined this G5 had the same "common" problem with others.

Basically, in addition to all the "heard-of" complaints about iPods breaking left and right with ridiculous repair bills, etc., I am really edgy/skeptical about trusting another Mac product "for now." To be more specific, I'm reluctant to invest in another laptop, period, for a good while given the problems had with the PC notebook. A custom pre-built notebook that had "gaming" components installed has overheated. The batteries also died, the HDD had bad sectors (or the IDE controller had problems), the video card fried. A +2 years laptop. I conclude that there still is no such thing as a "safe" gaming laptop.

I've heard that Toshiba laptops are ultra-reliable, but I don't think they're as capable as the mac laptops.

Anyway, since you haven't said why you want a mac or windows laptop other than for looks and software (without mentioning what you're working IN), I dunno. Well you do mention the need for AutoCAD in Architecture. Sooooooooooooooooooo... a Mac with bootcamp, whatever, it is.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

From what I've learned, Mac's are good for graphic design. Otherwise...you don't need one.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Slash

Mac's are good for graphic design.

Every graphic design artist will beg to differ. It is widely accepted in the profession that both platforms are equivalent, it just comes down to how comfortable one is with Mac OS or Windows.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Edsplosive

I cannot really lean either way, saying you'll get the best of both worlds, or the worst.

OS-wise, in the end, I WILL vouch for OS X 10.4 over XP and/or Vista. It is more appealing to me, visually. For my work, it helps me efficiently. Whoa, wait. I can do my designing work on a PC too. Doesn't matter. My university will have Mac AND Dell laboratories for students who wish to edit their animations, render image sequences with Maya, blah blah, etc. What really matters for that kind of thing is a really WELL sized monitor (24+ inches) and power-hardware. Well, then there's availability of programs, like Final Cut Pro. However, given that I'm a Visual Development/Illustration student, I don't make "movies," and I could do fine producing Storyboard Animatics with Adobe After Effects.

Now you see, to start complaining about mac laptops. I've had one for +2 years, and every several months something will break. The battery was replaced. The power supply was replaced because it fried, and Apple admitted this to be a common problem with the Powerbook G4 Aluminum series. The hinges supporting the LCD screen weren't properly adjusted, and Apple admitted this to be a common problem with that Aluminum series of laptops. When the notebook was shipped in for verification (during the battery's death), the top-case had to be replaced because of internal heat expanding the metal rims. There has been a +$1400 spending on repairs for this shitty Powerbook G4 laptop.

In addition, my IRL friend Kurado (Mudkips.....), has a black powerbook G4 laptop. His LCD screen is showing a huge and black "tornado-like" shape across the monitor because it was improperly installed, and Apple doesn't have LCD screen warranty services (like Dell does with their "accidental whatever" plan? It's just a way for them to suck an addition $200 bucks). Anywho, for any case of LCD screen repair it's about +$350. I still don't have the aluminum G4's screen repaired just so I can think that all that money could have gone to a new computer by this point. It was purchased during August of 2005.

There was a series of the iMac G5s that had "commonly known-of" logic board problems. Only one month after purchasing the G5 back in X-mas of 2004, the whole display went on fritz. The computer was taken into an Apple-certified repair store and it was determined this G5 had the same "common" problem with others.

Just want to note that the Intel Based Apple's seem to me to have a better overall build quality than the G4s, particularly the laptops (MacBook/Pros). I wont point to the PowerPC macs, and say they are great products. But I will with the Intel Books.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by Merv Burger

Every graphic design artist will beg to differ. It is widely accepted in the profession that both platforms are equivalent, it just comes down to how comfortable one is with Mac OS or Windows.

Tell that one to my school

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

To present a counterpoint, I've had a PowerBook G4 for four years. In that time it has gone into Apple three times. Two of those times the computer was back in my hands two days after I sent it, and in all three cases the repairs were free—free shipping, free parts, free labor, all covered under the AppleCare plan I purchased for it. If you buy a Mac laptop, buy AppleCare. Repairs for faulty components will be FREE. If you don't ever need it, great. Their service and support is wonderful.

Second, aside from those problems (minor screen defect in the first run of aluminum G4s, a DVD drive problem that I created, and an "end of warranty" hinge fix/backlight replacement) this little laptop has been an absolute workhorse and has never let me down. The battery life is obviously not so great 4 years on, but the machine is still extremely capable and I use it for mobile tasks daily. I actually use it as a testbed platform as well—currently it's running the most recent developer seed of Leopard so I can see what it's like. The best thing? It's actually faster, smoother, and more stable with Leopard than it was with any OS revision before it. It shipped with the last version of Jaguar, I got a free upgrade to Panther, and bought Tiger. With each upgrade the machine has become more stable and smoother to work with, a real testament to the quality of engineering that goes into Mac OS X.

Any laptop or desktop line will have some problems, but overall Apple still has the highest customer satisfaction rating of any computer company out there. Their service and support are, overall, great. For that reason alone I recommend them wholeheartedly.

Originally Posted by Slash

Tell that one to my school

Well, to be fair there are things that can make OS X a better workflow environment. Font management solutions on OS X tend to be more mature and stable. System-wide color calibration built into the OS means it's much easier to set up a consistent color-managed workflow between applications (especially important for print environments). Beyond that it is preference. In my case the OS itself has things that make me more efficient (Exposé being foremost among them, but also things like spring-loaded folders and the third party app-launcher Quicksilver), and a lot of the OS X-only apps fit the way I work much more than Windows apps. But yes, in this day and age a lot of it is preference.

FELIPE NO

Way to spark up the old Mac vs PC debate again... I use PCs more but here are the pros and cons in a nutshell at least as far as I know:

Mac

Generally are more stable systems then the PC.

Handles most memory heavy processes (video editing, 3D) easily without you needing to give it a tune up yourself.

You can count the various viruses for apple macs on one hand.

has a PC simulator so you can run PC only programs on it, the best of both you might say (not 100% certain on this since haven't tested it).

Has a tiny software library selection compared to the PC.

When things do go wrong with an apple Mac it's generally harder to fix then a PC or at least by yourself

PC

Has an enormous variety of software and to be perfectly honest is the system most developers consider first, since most companies use it (personally I consider this to be 3 good points rather then one).

When something goes wrong with a PC, unless it's serious it's generally easy to fix and/or recover data.

As a general rule PCs are more compatible with files originally created on a Mac then vice versa.

has countless viruses, trojens and spyware you need to protect yourself from if you go online.

Because PCs have so much variety with what they can do they get clogged up with crap easily, meaning system reinstalls and tune ups are needed to keep things working at top speed.

As with every other operating system developed by Microsoft you NEVER get their newest OS until the reviews say it's stable, because they always release them before they're really ready.

Although files being easy to recover is a good thing, it's also a bad thing too, the only 100% garentee you destroyed data is by destroying the drive it was put on or by giving it to a specialist data destroying company.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by ElectricSheep

I have a friend that uses AutoCAD regularly under Parallels (he runs his own architecture and design firm), and its very fast for him. He's claimed that its more responsive that running on his old Dell Inspiron notebook.

I'd sure hope so.

There is one thing about Mac Laptops that I do wish to mention. The screen size. You get 13.3 for 1000 USD, which is really nice. However, if you want that extra 2 inches to get that 15.4, it costs you another 800 USD. (With student discount, off course.) I know you get a better processor and graphics card, but it's important to keep in mind. Oh, and the base MacBook doesn't get you a DVD burner...if that's important to you or something. (I don't think it is, I can count the times I've burned a DVD on one hand) There's a Mac way of doing things, but some people make it seem like a huge conversion. It isn't. Sure, there's no right click button, but the ctrl key is right there. And quicksilver is the fucking shit. If you're decently intelligent and patient, you can easily use both OSs without any problem. Oh, and Macs have really good battery life. (I still say wait...Leopard will be out soon ... and I'm sure it'll be worth the wait)

On the other hand, you can get a lot of customization from whatever PC maker you choose. In all honesty, they all sit in the level of mediocrity. Acer/Gateway aren't good. Toshiba varies. Dell's have been getting better. HP used to be pretty good...but I have a feeling that they're going to become like old Dell. Lenovo's are pretty good, but you'll be reaching into Apple prices to get one. I've heard horror stories with PC makers such as Dell Hell, but I've never gotten any problems when I've called Tech Support for any PC company. I'm currently using an Inspiron e1505 and I haven't had any major problems, even after I took it apart for fun. But, instead of getting a personal home laptop, I'd go for a business or home office laptop now. They offer better warranties and service packages than home users. Sure, you'll lose out on a high end graphics card, but Nvidia Quadros are made for AutoCAD and stuff like that. (And you can still play HL2 without any problems, if you're into that)

Seriously, it's not really that important. Use what you like at the price you like. A computer is a tool. First and foremost, it should be easy to do what you want.

I take that back. Don't ever buy a desktop replacement.

Edit: One thing I can't stand about OSX...the fucking rounded buttons on everything. Feels like I'm surfing a shitty Web 2.0 site when I get to any website with a lot of buttons.

How ya doing, buddy?