Reasonable compromise ou blind submission?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/10/air....ap/index.html

And I thought canada, with its bogus multicultural policy, was the only onw who had problems with immi9grants/non christian groups

Don't get me wrong: I don't deny immigrants and their rights. After all (in canada, at least), our birthrate is so low that we NEED immigration to raise our population. HOwever, immigrants must realize one thing: Canada/US/France/whatever Western country comes with a set of values and beliefs. We are kind to welcome you to our country; it would be the least kind for you to accept our customs.

Letting Sikhs carry their "ceremonial knifes" to class while others can't carry knifes is going too far; letting Sikhs (i believe it was them) wear their turban and not security hats around construction grounds is going too far; letting a Sikhs wear is Turban in his RCMP outfit is denying our customs; saying "happy holidays" because we don't want to offend other religions is nonsense (Holidays revolve only around one event: Jesus Christ's alledged birth)...

Do you think we have gone too far on finding compromises for "different" people? Are we too uncompromising?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

What a bunch of fucknuts. One Jew threatens legal action and everybody's holiday is excluded?

Quote:

The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists.

Lazy more like. Airports are hubs for human interaction. They should be all-inclusive cultural institutions, because they service people of all cultures. A multicultural holiday display would be the most poignant thing an airport could do, but instead of acting like adults they want to act like overbearing parents who took away all the presents because Johnny wanted to light the Menorah.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

So honestly, what the fuck is the Rabbi's problem? Just because they have a Christmas (holiday) tree up, doesn't immediately mean that they have to represent every other religion. Jews are a minority in the US - what is so wrong with the majority celebrating Christmas, they don't force Jewish stores to put up Christmas trees - so why should we be forced to put up menorahs?

I work at an airport myself, and we don't have anything but Christmas decorations up, and I highly doubt that it's going to change. Why should the owners of Sea-Tac be forced to put up symbols they don't believe in?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

This is an embarrassment for Jews everywhere.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

And they still do: in boisbriand (north of montréal, qc), a local hospital (CLSC) compels: its nurses to wear long sleeves all year long; healthcare workers to move to jews' houses during sabbat; jews who want to be vaccinated by male will have it...

And for holiday wishes, only Mario Dumont (ADQ, the 3rd provincial party in QUébec) "dared" to wish a happy christmas.

Man, does that mean I can keep my shoes on when i'm in a mosquee?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Since Christians make up a majority in North America, it makes sense to think that people will make a big deal out of it when the Xmas season finally arrives. It isn't like we prevent non-Christians from celebrating their religious events (Ramadan, Passover, whatever) or insist that they include us in the celebrations to make it more cosmopolitan.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Since when is a tree, decorated or not, a religious symbol equal to a menorah, or the star of david. A Christmas tree is not a religious symbol, it's a damn tree made a pretty like.

FELIPE NO

MERRYCHRISTMAS

If you're offended - then get the fuck out. It's a tradition once a year to celebrate Christmas, and I can not possible see how it can be offensive to anybody - Wishing Merry Christmas is wishing peace and good tidings... What is so offensive about that?

I am Canadian - and it is my right to be able to wish you a Merry Christmas, just as it is your right to tell me "Eid Mubarak" or happy passover, or whatever. It's a tradition - and if you don't like it, then tough shit - deal with it. If you find it offensive, then move somewhere else where your intolerance is acceptable.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I live in Quebec CIty and I am an immigrant.

I'm not jew or arab though, I am a christian like almost everyone in this country.

But I too have a problem with this kind of thing. When I came up here, I came up because I was ready to accept and adopt all the living traditions of the country. I don't see why everyone else shouldn't do the same.

I mean I work here, I studied here, I abide by all the laws. And everything is going fine for me. If you ask me, I don't see why the laws should be changed to please a small portion of the population.

Quebec history is molded by Christianism and I don't see why anyone would ever want to change this. All the laws and traditions are based on christianism , so if someone doesn't want to comply to that well, too bad I say.

The worst thing would be the islamic tribunals entering our justice system just like some muslims tried in Ontario some time ago.

So, I too say, Merry Christmas

Jam it back in, in the dark.

You know, as much as I hate whiny Jews, I hate Christians who say things like

Originally Posted by Locke

MERRYCHRISTMAS

If you're offended - then get the fuck out.

Great job at missing the point.

The newstory indicated that what we're talking about is Christmas trees. Although I don't see anything wrong with that, it might have been a smart move to make the Christmas trees less, well, Christmas-y. An option I see often is having white and gold Christmas trees, which are beautiful and festive and indicative of the holiday season.

But if you're an airport, an international airport at that, you need to recognize that it is a bad idea to support one group's season. It's great to make this into a huge, "Merry Christmas shouldn't be banned!" debate, but this is more that an international airport shouldn't have a fucking Christmas display and ignore all other religions and idealogies. As that is clearly impossible, to grant something to everyone, they should make it a bit more open (Merry Christmas should be Happy Holidays, etc.)

And if you don't like that idea, having respect for others, then gtfo, plz.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Hachifusa

You know, as much as I hate whiny Jews, I hate Christians who say things like
Great job at missing the point.

The newstory indicated that what we're talking about is Christmas trees. Although I don't see anything wrong with that, it might have been a smart move to make the Christmas trees less, well, Christmas-y. An option I see often is having white and gold Christmas trees, which are beautiful and festive and indicative of the holiday season.

But if you're an airport, an international airport at that, you need to recognize that it is a bad idea to support one group's season. It's great to make this into a huge, "Merry Christmas shouldn't be banned!" debate, but this is more that an international airport shouldn't have a fucking Christmas display and ignore all other religions and idealogies. As that is clearly impossible, to grant something to everyone, they should make it a bit more open (Merry Christmas should be Happy Holidays, etc.)

And if you don't like that idea, having respect for others, then gtfo, plz.

SeaTac is owned by the ports authority. So the operators of the airport (probably Christian), decided that they wanted a Christmas display in an area THEY OWN. I'm not going to put up Hannukah decorations in my house, because I don't celebrate it: I'm not saying they're wrong, or people are wrong for celebrating it - I would just rather have a christmas tree and some lights. I don't tell YOU what to put up in your house.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Locke

SeaTac is owned by the ports authority. So the operators of the airport (probably Christian), decided that they wanted a Christmas display in an area THEY OWN. I'm not going to put up Hannukah decorations in my house, because I don't celebrate it: I'm not saying they're wrong, or people are wrong for celebrating it - I would just rather have a christmas tree and some lights. I don't tell YOU what to put up in your house.

No one is arguing that it was illegal to put up a Christmas tree. There is a difference between what is legal and what is ethically proper. I don't care if the Pope owns it; if it's an airport that features international traffic, putting up a display for only a certain number of clients is bound to push the others the wrong way. It's just ridiculous if anything else.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Locke, if your property is commercial property you have to abide by certain laws. I may hate Blacks but I still must give blacks service. Port authorities are also governmental or quasi-governmental. My point here is that it is not private property in the same sense that a home is. I am not sure to what extent the Sea-Tac airport is governmental but that would influence how it deals with religious symbols.

Christmas trees are interesting symbols. They represent a religious holiday while not being classified as a religious symbol like a cross or menorah would. To say it isn't a religious symbol is completely wrong. It may not have the same theological meaning as a cross but it still does represent a religious tradition.

As for saying merry Christmas, what annoys me is when people say "it's a Christian country we should be saying merry Christmas. I think that is stupid. Isn't it polite that unless you know what the person is to just use something neutral like "happy holidays"? If the person has a Christmas sweater, a visible cross, has said merry Christmas to you or anything else that reveals them to be a Christian you say merry Christmas. Most of my Muslim and atheist/apathetic friends will say merry Christmas if they know the person is a Christian. Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity have tried to make it seem like an attack on our identity. I personally see it as common courtesy. There are lots of things with high correlation: Americans and Christianity; Arabs/Desis and Islam; etc. but, I don't just say Eid Mubarak to the first desi I see. It annoys me because I don't say "happy holidays" because I feel forced. I don't think people are offended by hearing Merry Christmas... but, it's just wrong to assume that everyone you say Merry Christmas to will be a Christian. The reason it became an issue was because some stores wouldn't allow employees to say Merry Christmas. That seems stupid also. It should be if they are obviously Christian through their saying Merry Christmas or large crosses, Christian symbols then say Merry Christmas. If not, don't. This seems like it should be common sense to me. And Locke, the tradition isn't saying "Merry Christmas" to anyone. It's saying it to Christians. Muslims don't just go around saying Eid Mubarak to non-Muslims.

This may not be as much common sense. I don't know if I can say that immigrants need to adapt to 'our societies'. Obviously they must in some ways; you can't have them acting under Roman law. What is the big deal if people don't speak English? If they go to an primarily English speaking store and can't be understood--so be it. I don't mind when I go to the Chinese grocer in my town and the lady behind the desk can't understand me. And if in some far off day we our government does its work in Spanish would that be a big deal? And what's the deal with "If you're offended - then get the fuck out." I am white. I was born here. I speak English. I was born in the bosom of Western tradition as much as anyone else. I don't find Merry Christmas offensive but I do think it's offensive when it's used for the purposes of confrontation. You can be a jackass if you want and say Merry Christmas to everyone regardless of their religion and I'm sure there are people in other countries who do similar things with their traditions. *shrugs*

I was speaking idiomatically.

Quote:

Muslims don't just go around saying Eid Mubarak to non-Muslims.

My Muslim friends wish me a happy Eid... I don't find it offensive, or unmoral because I'm not a Muslim - I appreciate that they're willing to include me in their celebrations.

I'm sorry if wishing peace and good tidings is going to be offensive to people, it's not like I'm going around saying "Merry Christmas everybody, your religious celebrations are all wrong, so convert or die motherfuckers." I celebrate Christmas, not Hanukkah, or Kwanzaa (or even Festivus). Others aren't wrong to celebrate them, I'm just not one of them. What I'm annoyed at is when people like the Rabbi in Seattle threaten to SUE because they're not represented in a holiday display on someone else's property. People have been frightened into being PC and ceasing to include others in the spirit of the season, because they're afraid that they're going to offend someone and get sued for trying to spread good will. Now that's a shame.

How is it that in Bangkok, a city of 10+ million people, I couldn't go 50' without seeing signs wishing me Merry Christmas (including 500' billboards beside the tollways), or Christmas Trees, or decorations? Christians defiantly aren't in a majority there - and no one seems to mind about those decorations. So why is it such a big deal over here, offending people and such?

I'm not saying to go around and force Christmas on people that don't do the christmas thing, my point is that they should be able to accept that in our country, I might wish you a merry Christmas with all the best intentions- just don't bite my head off because of it.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

See, the problem is you're taking this to be some god-damned PC argument, when it really isn't. Was that Rabbi a douchebag? Yes. It's really not a big deal. I hate to break it to you, but the only people in this lame "Merry Christmas" argument are assholes like O'Reilley. We non-Christians could give a shit about being told Merry Christmas. Or at least the majority of us.

But in this specific case, it would behoove a god damn international airport not to have a flagrantly Christmas display when we have come up with a much better term: Happy Holidays. No, to use that term doesn't make you PC. Not necessarily. If you'd rather say Merry Christmas, say it. But the term is a smart move to not offend anyone in particular (except dipshit Christians, as they sometimes are). If you carry international traffic, have a little common courtesy and make the tree yellow and gold, say Happy Holidays, and play generic Christmas music (i.e. not about Jesus). If the Rabbi complains then, well, we talk then.

FELIPE NO

How is it not a PC argument? People have been terrified into saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas... I don't have a problem with saying Happy Holidays either - hell, the cards I sent out this xmas were "happy holiday" cards, no big deal. I just don't like to see people scared into doing something that never used to be a problem.

Like I mentioned before - in Thailand, where the majority of the population is a split between Buddism and Islam, I saw more christmas (yes, christmas: greens and reds and huge (fucking GINORMOUS) "Merry Christmas" billboards) - I don't think anybody there is getting offended, so why is it so taboo over here?

How ya doing, buddy?

Because we ARE religious.

In Thailand, those words and phrases and images are a Baptist preacher's worst nightmare; they are crass commercialism. Here, they represent the Birth of Our Lord and Savior who Died on the Cross to Redeem Sin.

I agree that being scared into saying Happy Holidays is pretty fucking trashy. But let Thailand do what Thailand wants; in its international airport, it shouldn't do that, either. As generic as absolutely possible.

While I agree that places around here should be able to have Christmas displays, this display in particular needs to be as completely generic as possible because it caters to many people.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I still don't see a problem with the displays in airports - It's not like they're hanging ornaments that say "Christmas is the only proper holiday" or shit like that - they're just spreading peace and good will, how can you knock somone for that?

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Well, yeah, my Muslim friends say Happy Eid to me... but, I mean, that's because it's a closer relationship. I meant strangers.

I seem to agree with your first reply to me, more or less. I do worry about complaining about political correctness because the people I see doing that so ardently (Robert Spencer) have no concept about religious tradition and how it changes. I also don't think people are terrorized into saying Happy Holidays. I would also say I have no problem with Merry Christmas billboards or TV commercials -- since they are passive media. I think when you see happy Holidays it's an effort to include as many people as you can so that more will buy from you. You just seem to portray it as some war on Christmas when I think of it as stores thought they'd make more money changing things to happy holidays and with this backlash they may reconsider it.

As for the airport: the trees do represent Christmas. Having a cross in the airport wouldn't say "Christmas is the only proper holiday" but it's not likely they would put that up. Personally, I couldn't care less if they put up crosses or menorahs in airports but this was more of an issue of one person who did care trying to take advantage of the law. It's not really a societal trend vis-a-vis Christmas.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Hachifusa

No one is arguing that it was illegal to put up a Christmas tree. There is a difference between what is legal and what is ethically proper. I don't care if the Pope owns it; if it's an airport that features international traffic, putting up a display for only a certain number of clients is bound to push the others the wrong way. It's just ridiculous if anything else.

Well the way i see it is that they are coming over to our land (well technically Canada isn't my land but w/e). They should expect to see our traditions; and our way of life. A majority of Canada celebrates Christmas and therefore it should not be ethically unjust to see a Christmas tree in a Canadian airport. Turn this around; what if you were landing in an international airport in Israel and saw a Menorah? Would you bitch and say this is an international airport; and i demand that you put up a Christmas tree as well! No, because that would be rude and disrespectful for a country LETTING you visit them. Or what if you landed in Singapore and saw something muslim? Would you demand that a cross be placed right next to it? Of course not, westerners would never even dream of doing something like that.

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Originally Posted by Locke

I still don't see a problem with the displays in airports - It's not like they're hanging ornaments that say "Christmas is the only proper holiday" or shit like that - they're just spreading peace and good will, how can you knock somone for that?

Because they're not saying, "Peace and Good Will". They are saying Merry Christmas, Christmas being the birth of Jesus Christ. But I don't think it was a sign that said Merry Christmas that bothered the Rabbi, but rather that there was a giant Christmas display and nothing else.

Originally Posted by crabman

Well the way i see it is that they are coming over to our land (well technically Canada isn't my land but w/e). They should expect to see our traditions; and our way of life. A majority of Canada celebrates Christmas and therefore it should not be ethically unjust to see a Christmas tree in a Canadian airport. Turn this around; what if you were landing in an international airport in Israel and saw a Menorah? Would you bitch and say this is an international airport; and i demand that you put up a Christmas tree as well! No, because that would be rude and disrespectful for a country LETTING you visit them. Or what if you landed in Singapore and saw something muslim? Would you demand that a cross be placed right next to it? Of course not, westerners would never even dream of doing something like that.

If I went to Israel, I'd expect to see a menorah because it's a Jewish country.

If I came to America, I wouldn't expect a cross because we are not a Christian country. I mean, there might be a lot of religious people, but this is not a Christian society (by law, anyway) and so I would be disgusted to see a cross in an international airport; no Christian should ever consider America 'their land' in a Christian sense.

I was speaking idiomatically.