Creatine

I was reminded about this stuff when my buddy at work said he was taking Creatine for hockey. I don't know much about this stuff, but it's supposed to help you bulk up. Is this stuff safe? I've heard you can get cysts as a result, which is why I've never taken it, but I'm curious.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I have a friend that used to take it. It seems to be ok to use. He had a drink in the morning and worked out later in the day. I don't think he ever had a problem with it. I do hear however that it doesn't do THAT much more for you.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

It hasn't been proven safe, let's put it that way. You have a loading phase (getting your body used to it) and a maintenance phase (you take a regular dose for a long as you want to train). As far as I know it allows you to increase your endurance when working out, a little past the point where you'd normally have to give up. In that way, it helps you to train harder and increase your muscle growth. It's also supposed to speed up muscle recovery. Creatine occurs naturally in the human body but as usual, taking an abnormally large dose of anything (even if it is naturally occurring) is something I personally wouldn't do.

If you want to get big and strong, work harder. It isn't rocket science as long as you have an average body type.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

We went over this in Nutrition class a while back. It doesn't give you that much more energy. To give you a very short version of the class explanation, creatine is used to make ATP when you're out of it. It doesn't make all that much, though: only enough for a few seconds worth of extra workout. Save your money.

Originally Posted by Ulysses

If you want to get big and strong, work harder. It isn't rocket science as long as you have an average body type.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=343512

Maybe this can answer some of the questions you have.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I have no idea why this is in the Kitchen. Just because you can theoretically put it in protein shakes doesn't make it food.

Moving this to General Discussion.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by Ulysses

It hasn't been proven safe, let's put it that way. You have a loading phase (getting your body used to it) and a maintenance phase (you take a regular dose for a long as you want to train). As far as I know it allows you to increase your endurance when working out, a little past the point where you'd normally have to give up. In that way, it helps you to train harder and increase your muscle growth. It's also supposed to speed up muscle recovery. Creatine occurs naturally in the human body but as usual, taking an abnormally large dose of anything (even if it is naturally occurring) is something I personally wouldn't do.

If you want to get big and strong, work harder. It isn't rocket science as long as you have an average body type.

Loading to get your body used it? Why the hell would you want to do that? The purpose of loading is to saturate your muscles with creatine, followed by maintenance of the increased level of creatine. Whether loading is necessary is debatable. Creatine is really cheap (about $10 for 500g or 100 servings), so loading won't hurt. Just make sure you take it with something insulinogenic (e.g. grape juice). I put it in my post-workout shake.

The stuff works for most people, often with great effect. This is most researched supplement on the market. It's safe, plain and simple. You piss out the excess. I mean, anything can be toxic in high amounts, even water, so just take it 5g at a time, maybe four servings a day for a week if you want to load.

Exercise and nutrition are of course the most important thing, but that doesn't mean work harder. That's the dumbest thing I've read all week. It's a very common mistake to overtrain and fry the CNS. You have to train smarter. If everything's in line, then adding creatine can be of great benefit. It's just dumb not to take it.

Check out the Dave Barr article in that link. He knows his shit.

Also, make sure you use Creatine Monohydrate, not that other crap (I'm looking at you, Ethyl Ester).

FELIPE NO

Yeah, why the hell would you want to follow the manufacturers instructions *rolls eyes*? All the creatine monohydrate i've ever seen on sale says you should do that. I guess you guys have more different kinds, some of which don't need that stage? We don't have such a big drug culture in athletics as over there, so that sort of thing isn't as widely known.

By working harder, I didn't mean overtraining V_V. I think you're a pretty dumb fuck yourself for misunderstanding. Obviously over-training will do more harm than good. When I say "work harder" I mean "be more dedicated to your goal"; in other words don't be a pussy and fall back on chemicals until you've maxed out your body's potential naturally. A lot of people jump straight into using drugs because they're lazy. Dedicating and training the mind to accomplish a task is just as important as anything else. If you use drugs and supplements from the outset, you're in the wrong profession.

It's dumb not to take it? Pfft. We don't even know what this kid looks like and you're telling him that supplements are the only way? Yeah right.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I took creatine my senior year almost a decade ago trying to help build strength in my new weightlifting program.

The only "benefit" I got from using creatine was tiny stretch marks on my armpits. They've faded since then, but I think creatine is largely a crock.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Originally Posted by Ulysses

Yeah, why the hell would you want to follow the manufacturers instructions *rolls eyes*?

I'm sure the the manufacturers aren't just encouraging you to use more of their product so that you have to buy it more often. *rolls eyes back* Do some research, slick. Loading is still being debated.

Quote:

By working harder, I didn't mean overtraining V_V. I think you're a pretty dumb fuck yourself for misunderstanding. Obviously over-training will do more harm than good.

That was for the benefit of the original poster. Just because I know what's going on, should I assume that he does? Like I said, train smarter.

Quote:

It's dumb not to take it? Pfft. We don't even know what this kid looks like and you're telling him that supplements are the only way? Yeah right.

Ahem. To quote myself: "Exercise and nutrition are of course the most important thing...If everything's in line, then adding creatine can be of great benefit."

Don't get pissy just because I trashed your post.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Yeah, I personally don't buy loading. And, like already said, loading isn't so your body gets used to it, it's so that you can build up a surplus, and then you continue taking five grams after the first week or whatever to maintain that surplus. On top of that, after a few months or so, you're usually advised to LOAD AGAIN. Load of bullshit, really, but try to stick to monohydrate and ESPECIALLY stay away from liquid protein. Hell, CellTech aside, try to get it pure instead of premixed with sugary substances, which'll save you money too.

Creatine a crock? This was the fucking miracle supplement in the 90's. Even to this day companies are trying to market their newer products as "the next creatine." After protein powder, this is always the next thing to get recommended for any serious weightlifter/bodybuilder. Just make sure you drink plenty of water and expect to gain at least five pounds. I'm not gonna get into the heavy details, but it basically expands the water retention of your muscle cells, which is most noticeable when you do explosive movements. Don't expect it to do much for your high rep sets and your jogs.

I'll probably start taking it once I hit the six-month mark in the gym. I don't like taking any supplements, except protein, right away so that when I do take them I can immediately tell the difference. If, of course, there is any.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Hey, nice to see someone else on the pro-creatine side. You mentioned high rep sets, and I thought I'd mention that beta-alanine (a non-essential amino acid) is legitimately being called "the next creatine", and it does help with endurance, particularly the onset of PWCFT (physical working capacity at fatigue threshold). It's too expensive at this point though.

It's also nice to see you mention explosive movements. You don't see many people in commercial gyms (or non-atheletes in general) doing the Olympic lifts, and it's a damn shame. Kids think benching an unloaded barbell really fast is explosive, but unless you're throwing that thing up in the air, you're just teaching your body to decelerate. Eh, I'm just venting now.

How ya doing, buddy?

I don't take it since I'm not looking to be a bodybuilder. I've read a lot in the past about creatine and all its mixes, and it seems that most studies point to it being very beneficial to increasing muscle mass when combined with a solid routine. Yeah there have been reports about kidney problems and such, but I think there are several confounding variables, including some guys who overdose on way too much protein without sufficient fluid intakes.

Yeah it's not rocket science that you gotta work hard to reap the rewards in the first place, but for the experienced who have seemingly plateuaed, a short phase of creatine would know doubt bring them out of the rut (especially CEE and similar products). Even a little more energy makes a huge difference for already big guys; remember it's only those last few reps that will rip your muscles up enough to stimulate growth while you recover.

In a nutshell: if you want to IMPROVE on already solid foundations, give it a shot as long as you don't be stupid with using it. (I never would have imagined a topic like this coming up on a gaming forum lol )

I was speaking idiomatically.

Beta-alanine? Hmm, its use in that way must be new because I've never heard of it. Just how expensive is it? Nowadays I only do high-rep sets for my legs, since they're naturally more endurance based for just about anyone.

Haha, explosiveness. Just the other day I was watching a guy do EXPLOSIVE Triceps pressdowns, you know, the cable movement. I mean 3 reps a second it seemed. I've never tried Olympic lifts (like the snatch), actually, they scare me. I've been using powerlifting moves (mainly deadlifts) to supplement my regular routine, along with some weightlifting stuff like power cleans.

Among the hundrens of problems I see in any gym, commercial or not, is fucking people doing the same shit every day. Same bodypàrts, same exercises, absolutely no change in their routine. Too many people think it takes no thought to weight train and treat it as so, leaving after a month or so after unsatisfied results.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Power cleans are basically half of an O-lift (the clean and jerk). I never do the entire movement, I just do cleans and push presses. Personally I think the snatch is easier than the clean. You should try the one-arm dumbbell snatch; it's one of my favorites. It's rare to see people do any powerlifting movements either. I mean, they bench, but their elbows are flared, their backs are flat, it's all wrong. They squat, but they don't even make it to parallel. They never deadlift.

Beta-alanine is now available in a time-released version, which is cool because you used to have to take it eight times a day. You can read about it (and order it) here. It's $50 for 90 servings, which is a month's worth, but after the first month I think you only need half as much. Personally I can't afford it, or at least I'd rather buy more food!

FELIPE NO

I don't know man, that snatch still looks scary to me. Seems like a lot of stress on the elbows. Check out the world record for it though. 580 FUCKING POUNDS MAN, I'm nearly 100 pounds shy of deadlifting that shit and this Iranian motherfucker is clean and jerking it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9FwIDwBDcnA

Clean and push presses? I think the technical name for it, if I have you right, is clean and press? I hate the way it looks when you jerk the bar to get under it into the press position, but clean and presses are great. I did those when I was younger. Might have to go back to them soon. For now just the cleaning portion, at which I can handle a lot more weight than if I intended to press it too.

Funny, just today I was considering trying dumbbell power cleans. We're pretty much on the same page here except for my refusal to fuck with Olympic stuff. Funny, the clean and press used to actually be an Olympic Lift.

I know what you mean about gym stereotypes though. Like squats, I see people pile on plates but never go much more than a foot down before they're going back up. I don't squat though, I try to watch out for my lower back. I stick to lunges and leg presses. I know, I'm missing out, but still. As for the bench you'd think more people would learn to arch their backs, squeeze their shoulderblades together, etc. You might be right, their backs are flat... Sometimes they have their FUCKING ASS completely off the bench though.

This beta-alanine sounds really impressive. But really, only time will tell. The most I ever paid for some shit was about 80 dollars a month. Some stuff called MegaTropin. Anyway, I hope it reaches a more decent price soon.

Ever try these n02 whatever things?

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

NO supplements are bullshit, as far as I've heard. Pretty much everyone I've talked to has gotten nothing out of them.

Rezazadeh's a beast. That amount of weight is just scary.

I meant I do cleans and push presses separately. Yes, the full lift would be a clean and press. I think I can push press a bit more than I can clean, just because I don't clean often enough these days.

I've seen it all with the bench--kids looking like they're trying to hump the ceiling or tap dance in the air. I saw a guy doing quarter bench presses just so he could use the same weight his buddy was using. It was just embarassing.

I think you're overemphasizing the stress on your back during a squat, but if you want to avoid it you should try front squats. The front squat is the better lift anyway. Supposedly overhead squats are the best, but I can't be arsed to develop that kind of balance and flexibility. Lunges are fantastic. Try bulgarian split squats (a lunge with the back foot elevated on a bench), they're real killers.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Those NO supplements get a ridiculous amount of attention though. Prices for it tend to be out of line though. And yeah, I see what you mean with push presses. Those used to work great for me as a plateau conquering tecnhique and for overall variety.

The most glaring thing I see in this country in particular concerning the bench press is people not lightly touching the bar to their chest before going back up. Just about all of them tend to stop about six inches above the chest area. Sad really because that lowest portion is the one that focuses most on the chest muscles before your shoulders and tris kick in.

I've been going in different directions with my leg workouts. Coincidence that I've been heavily considering the Bulgarian version of lunges and now you mention it. Those overhead squats, what the hell makes them better than a regular squat as far as your legs are concerned? It just looks awkward. Might have to take your word on front squats, though the bar sitting on your clavicles kinda seems odd and hard to balance. What do I know though, never tried it.

After protein and creatine, what supplement would you most recommend? Not counting this alanine shit I can't afford. Glutamine? Ever try ZMA? That shit gave me great results back when I used to take it.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

One thing I'm trying to figure out is why the pins are where they are in the power rack at my gym. The thing comes with a bench that hooks into it, but one pin setting is below my chest and the other is above, no matter how flat or how arched I am. It's a real pain in the ass, because since finals are over and there's no one in the gym, I can't count on having a spotter for my max effort bench.

Overhead squats are a good test of flexibility and core strength (and consequently, doing them can bring those things up to par). So while it's a great lift, there's no substitute for heavy back and front squats. For the front squat, the positioning of the bar is basically the end of a clean. That makes a lot of sense, considering that with a technically correct clean (sometimes called a clean and squat) you actually perform a front squat after you catch the bar.

I've used ZMA. My problem with it is that whenever I stop using it, for the next few days I get sudden bouts of chest pain when I inhale. I have to ask my doctor about that before I try ZMA again. I've tried a lot of Biotest supplements; they make some good shit. My favorites are Spike and Power Drive. Spike is easily the best stimulant out there. Power Drive is basically DMAE and tyrosine, and it'll kick up your CNS efficiency. It's also been recently popularized as a CNS recovery supplement (so you take it after workout rather than before).

But I suspect what you're looking for is more along the lines of BCAAs. There's a lot of info out there (e.g. this article). If you can afford to take them in high dosages, you can expect to put on some appreciable lean mass accompanied by strenght gains.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

When someone is a hardcore athlete or bodybuilder, every bit of extra help is an advantage so pushing out those extra two reps helps hence why they take supplements. Of course they often stack supplements for more of an effect. If you are just starting out, eating correctly and working out hard and regularly with enough rest in between will yield effective results. There are NO shortcut methods.

Will, I like Squats, Sumo Style Deadlifts, Bench Press, Standing power Press, Chins and Bentover Barbell rows for all my core movements.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Will, your dilemma with your chest workout (my damned gym doesn't even have a power rack) sounds like mine. It's probably why I don't get as high of gains with chest as I do with the rest of my body. Hell, if you look in my journal you can see the time I got 315 stuck on my chest. Anyhow, I've gotten used to having no spotter over the years and just learning how to tell when I can push out an extra rep or not. Plus, a decent spotter's hard to find. Motherfuckers half the time CANNOT WAIT to start helping you. If that bar isn't going down towards my chest stay the fuck away from me. I'm not here to bench press while you barbell row.

Overhead squats sound good now. I like doing anything I can for core strength. A month ago I saw someone do overhead lunges with 115 on YouTube and I thought he looked like a tool. Guess not.

Man, one time I took ZMA before going to sleep without drinking water with it. About a half hour later I was coughing the shit up half awake. The high dosages of those minerals was so disgusting and it burned my tongue. At least it seemed like it did.

I'll read that link on BCAAs in a bit. A lot of guys in prison sword by the amino acids. Though they said you should chew them instead of just swallowing them and that they were also great metabolism boosters? Eat them on an empty stomach? And most of what I've read over the years is that you need high dosages to notice results. I don't know.

Hmm, good suggestion though and that might be up next on my stack. Right now I'm taking a post workout drink consisting of whey protein, skim milk and honey. Next week I'm gonna start taking relatively large amounts of Vitamin E and C, maybe selenium, after my workouts to aid against the free radicals. Also along those lines will be the large amounts of green tea I'll try to keep drinking all throughout the next year. Then the stuff I'm considering in this thread. We'll see.

Those sound like good, solid movements rat. Sumo deadlifts are basically deadlifts with a wider stance no? Never tried those.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Oh man, I know what you mean about spotters. God, even if I fail the lift, I can hold the bar on my chest for a while without getting hurt. I tell them to "stand the fuck back and let me lift".

Overhead lunge, now that sounds like a good idea. It might help me get comfortable with the squat. Since the power rack is too small, I like to clean and jerk the weight and then lower it to my back in order to lunge or split squat. But now that you've mentioned this, I'm thinking it would actually be much easier to just leave the weight overhead!

I'm not sure about metabolism boosting, but I know BCAAs can aid in fat loss. Though as far as I remember, they taste horrible. And this is coming from bodybuilders, who are used to downing some nasty stuff. Definitely take them between meals. They're great for staving off catabolism, so if you know you're not getting a chance to eat or you wake up in the middle of the night, definitely pop a few. I've seen coaches recommend as much as 5-10 grams, five times a day.

That sounds like a great PW shake. I use Biotest's Surge around tough workouts and chocolate skim milk otherwise. I completely forgot about honey; I'm definitely going to try that!

Selenium is some good stuff. I was just reading about a fat loss stack of kelp, selenium, and l-tyrosine. I'm still bulking for the next four months, but I'm looking forward to trying this out for my once-a-year "get ripped" diet. If you're looking to quash free radicals, get a bag of mixed berries. Because they're thin-skinned, they have enormous amounts of anti-oxidants to protect themselves.


T-Rat, I was wondering when someone else would chime in. Those movements are the bread and butter of any successful program (the genetically gifted and juicers aside). Having said that, there are some really helpful isolation movements out there: external rotation, hip abduction/adduction, wrist extension, and calf raise. Another good compound exercise is the push-up "plus", where you push the shoulder blades forward at the top; it's great for shoulder health. And for core strength, I love stuff like the full contact twist, saxon bend, bird-dog, pillar and side bridges, and windmill. Definitely keep on lifting the heavy shit though!


Almost forgot, here's what happens when you fall asleep in the middle of a clean and jerk.

Most amazing jew boots

the impressive thing about this thread, which I completely forgot about, is that it serves as a nice example marker for my life and its twists.

Actually, I kind of like the taste of BCAAs. I used to chew them down because some dickhead told me it was easier to absorb that way. What do you think about that?

Didnt even know they make chocolate skim. I wish that was available here. Mixed berries sound so damn delicious right now.

Can you explain a little more about this pushup? It got my attention because I'm starting to get funny feelings in my left shoulder.

Fucking video was whacked out. I hope some shit like that never happens to me.

FELIPE NO

You need to work out a lot for it to take effect. If you're one of those people that go to the gym once a week to lift weights for 2 hours, this isn't going to do anything for you.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Chewing stuff is always better, if you can handle it. I chew my multi-vitamin. It tastes like fucking cat food.

For the chocolate skim, I just buy skim milk and mix in some Nesquik.

This article details an entire shoulder health program, including the push-up plus.

Jam it back in, in the dark.