Ethics on MMORPG black market and GFF's ads for them

On occasion, I see a row of Google ads for FFXI gil marketplaces on the bottom of the page here. I bet that depending on what pages I went to, I could probably see WoW trading ads too. I know that Adsense clients cannot directly control what ads Google displays on their websites. Still, it seems like an ethical issue to me, as the result is that GFF is inadvertently encouraging the black market in MMORPG currency.

I know not everyone is against this sort of thing either; does GFF/bobo have a stance on it? Is this a non-topic here?

I think it's a bad thing, but I don't care that much about the issue to be fired up about it. I'm more just interested in hearing people's thoughts on whether GFF should be responsible for its ads, whether this is important, whether it's even feasible to do anything about it, etc.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

What I really want to know is why is the "MMORPG black market" unethical?
If an idiot wants to pay for something insubstantial they get online, then what is the problem there?

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Well, it's cheating to the game and also of questionable legality. And the market doesn't just affect the person engaging in it. "Gold farming" has a disruptive effect on the economy and gameplay balance of games like WoW and FFXI. As well, people ingame are more likely to steal items from friendly party members who didn't know their new member was a gold farmer, and it's an incentive to develop 3rd party tools and discover exploits to artificially gain currency.

It may not be unethical in some absolute sense, because hey, it's just a game. I guess it's more a question of gamer ethics and what we as a community of gamers want to endorse.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I think it is unethical to be a gold farmer, although I was always under the impression that no one ever bothers to click those ads, and the ones that do out of curiosity find some kind of catch or deterrent after going to the link. I'm probably wrong though.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Technically Bobo can blacklist some ads from showing, but I still fail to see how it's unethical. I mean, unless half the population in the the game world bought gold, then it's not gonna screw up the economy one bit.

Also, plenty of these sites just buy gold cheaper from other people, and resell it. You can't really blame them for other people's stupidity.

And as you said, it's just a game.

I was speaking idiomatically.

The problem with gold farming is three-fold.

1. It blows the in-game economy out of whack. More people buy gold than you think, and it introduces far more money into the system than should reasonably exist. In short, it causes inflation. Eventually prices become so inflated that ONLY those who buy large quantities of virtual coinage can afford certain items on the auction house.

This is exacerbated by the gold farmers themselves, who force the matter by obtaining clutch items and selling them for deliberately outrageous prices. It's a nasty cycle, and ultimately victimizes the players who abide by the rules.

2. Permitting gold farming and the buying of gold online creates an ivory tower culture. Advancement in the game ceases to be based on player skill and personal effort, and instead is reserved solely for those with deep pockets. The regular subscribers essentially get shortchanged, because they will never measure up to their artifically-powered peers unless they too pony up an additional $50. Unlike retail expansions where you're getting something shiny and new, it instead creates a money sink where you're paying simply to keep pace with the power curve, and this "Red Queen" phenomenon very quickly drives players away.

This also has the side effect of throwing off intended game balance, as this artificial influx of money allows players to acquire high-end equipment far earlier than is intended, particularly certain enchantments in the case of WoW.

2. Gold farmers are notorious griefers, when it comes to their work. They can render many quests unbeatable by completely depopulating an area of enemies, thus preventing you from defeating certain enemies required for a quest. The farmers are not at all shy about interfering with you if you're at cross-purposes with their grinding. In at least one case, one farmer was using a powerful quest NPC to kill enemies for him, by training enemies over to the NPC, thus preventing the escorting player from finishing his quest. "Ninja looting" is also a popular gold farmer past time, which amounts to actual in-game theft.

There is hardly anything victimless about gold farming. If it were simply a matter of dumb players wasting their real money on pretend gold, it would be a non-issue, but there are tangible, in-game consequences that spoil the enjoyment of the majority of the playerbase.

How ya doing, buddy?

Moving to Board Support.

FELIPE NO

This shouldn't be in Board Support. This is not discussing a technical issue, and my question was not just about the ethics of GFF's ads, but about the ethics of gold farming itself. So far the discussion has been about nothing but the latter. Please reconsider.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Klondike

On occasion, I see a row of Google ads for FFXI gil marketplaces on the bottom of the page here. I bet that depending on what pages I went to, I could probably see WoW trading ads too. I know that Adsense clients cannot directly control what ads Google displays on their websites. Still, it seems like an ethical issue to me, as the result is that GFF is inadvertently encouraging the black market in MMORPG currency.

I know not everyone is against this sort of thing either; does GFF/bobo have a stance on it? Is this a non-topic here?

I think it's a bad thing, but I don't care that much about the issue to be fired up about it. I'm more just interested in hearing people's thoughts on whether GFF should be responsible for its ads, whether this is important, whether it's even feasible to do anything about it, etc.

AARGH I PLAY WORLD OF WARCRAFT ALL DAY AND I AM A LEVEL 60 FIGHTER I HAVE TO SMASH A LOT OF ORCS TO GET MY GOLD AND I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE DO THINGS THE EASY WAY AND MAKE ME LOOK STUPID FOR BEATING UP ORCS. THEY'RE NOT LEVEL 60 FIGHTERS AND IT TOOK ME A LOT OF TIME TO GET THIS STRONG LET'S SEE THEM SMASH ALL THOSE ORCS. INSTEAD OF LEARNING FROM THE GAINS OF OTHERS I WILL DEMAND THAT THE ENTIRE INTERNET CONFORM TO MY OUTMODED PRINCIPLES. I AM THE ULTIMATE GAMER BECAUSE SMASHING ORCS FOR GOLD IS HARDCORE AND ONLY NOOBS CONSIDER ALTERNATIVE RESOURCES FOR ADVANCEMENT. I THINK GOLD FARMERS ARE STUPID POOTYHEADS AND WOULDN'T KNOW HOW TO KILL AN ORC IF THEY HAD TO.

How ya doing, buddy?

I've made this argument many times in the past and I think it still holds true today: let's say I really really enjoy playing <diablo2/WoW/FFXI/randomMMO> but I also have a full time job. I don't have the time for grinding for the 8 hours a day necessary to find all the items and gold needed to outfit my character well enough to survive in the harsh harsh online world. But you see, I really really enjoy playing the game and don't want to spend my whole night after I get off work just farming some area in hopes of finding that elusive item. Wouldn't it be better and more fun for me to shell out twenty or fifty bucks to get everything I need, so that I can not worry about the grinding and just get straight to the role playing that I so love?

Now I understand that this particular scenario does not apply to all gamers who purchase items, but it is still a valid point that should be taken into consideration before bitching and moaning about people selling virtual items for real money. Seriously, no one is using this to make themselves a fortune of real cash. It's probably some teenager who is using the money he makes selling gold to buy pot without his parents knowing {or asking "hey timmy what did you spend that 50 dollars I gave you the other day on}.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I'm not sure why you simply don't search for another game that offers you a roleplaying experience more suited to your needs. Why play a game which is structured such that for you to optimally enjoy it, you are required to keep shelling out money?

And it's not some teenager using the money to buy pot or whatever; there are organizations, you could maybe even call them small companies (especially in China) who do this to make serious money. It's these concerted efforts, more than the teenage "hobbyists", as you might say, that are the problem.

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Good point about China. I'm sure that sums of money like 50 USD can go a lot further there than it can here, so it could be a viable means of employment.

But whether or not there are other games that would be better suited to my hypothetical needs is irrelevant. Maybe all of my close and personals play <diablo2/WoW/FFXI/randomMMORPG>. Maybe I for whatever reason derive much please out of the game experience.

But you're right, why play a game which is structured such that you are required to keep shelling out money {monthly fees hi there}, that's just silly.

I do not play any MMORPGs which have monthly fees, and I do not and have not ever purchased in-game items or currency using real money, but still I can see how some people could be inclined to do this, especially if the person really really enjoys it and has a fair amount of disposable income.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

AARGH I PLAY WORLD OF WARCRAFT ALL DAY AND I AM A LEVEL 60 FIGHTER I HAVE TO SMASH A LOT OF ORCS TO GET MY GOLD AND I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE DO THINGS THE EASY WAY AND MAKE ME LOOK STUPID FOR BEATING UP ORCS. THEY'RE NOT LEVEL 60 FIGHTERS AND IT TOOK ME A LOT OF TIME TO GET THIS STRONG LET'S SEE THEM SMASH ALL THOSE ORCS. INSTEAD OF LEARNING FROM THE GAINS OF OTHERS I WILL DEMAND THAT THE ENTIRE INTERNET CONFORM TO MY OUTMODED PRINCIPLES. I AM THE ULTIMATE GAMER BECAUSE SMASHING ORCS FOR GOLD IS HARDCORE AND ONLY NOOBS CONSIDER ALTERNATIVE RESOURCES FOR ADVANCEMENT. I THINK GOLD FARMERS ARE STUPID POOTYHEADS AND WOULDN'T KNOW HOW TO KILL AN ORC IF THEY HAD TO.

So, if people in a game are cheating, you think it makes more sense for you to cheat than to try and stop others from cheating?

I was speaking idiomatically.

Similarly, every single ffxi recourse site in existance have advertisements for gil-selling companys.

As far as those ads being on gff, who cares?

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Selling and buying gold is against the Terms of Use for many popular MMO games. Those ads should be considered unethical, in my opinion. If the game itself allows buying and selling gold, then what's the problem?

FELIPE NO

This is were careful wording comes into play. Most sites never claim to sell you gold, you're paying them for the time spent collecting a certain amount of gold. Not sure how far that flies, but that's what they claim.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

A load of BS really. Then again, most companies are unable to enforce such policy as it requires ressources and dedication. In most games, the players are unable to enforce their own set of laws.

Only game that has managed effectively (to a certain extent) the problem of virtual currency sold is EvE Online. THe player himself can find ways to... take care of those gold farmers.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

What if instead of "selling" the gold they collected, they "gave it all away".

Would that be any more fair?

Time is money, no matter where you go. If you couldn't buy items and currency, then your MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYERISH RPGGGGGG might not be so massive, because some people wouldn't have the incentive.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Devo

Trying to stop others from cheating is a losing battle and creates further problems (see Halo 2: Bridging). It's up to Blizzard and their servers to prevent the problem.

So because the ability to exploit the system exists that means it's fair game? The dudes that made CS didn't have the ability to patch up hostage jumping abuses, does that mean it should become a legitimate strategy?

What's wrong with expecting people to try to at least uphold some sort of standard for keeping fair gameplay.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Zephyrin

If you couldn't buy items and currency, then your MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYERISH RPGGGGGG might not be so massive, because some people wouldn't have the incentive.

And if WoW's populace suffered a loss and these people left for another RPG whose game economy and pace were more suited to them, then everyone benefits. The people who left found a better game for them, and the people who stayed have a more stable economy. And the market for MMORPGs is affected by competition in a healthy way.

WoW and FFXI were both just fine before gold/gil farming became a major issue, people didn't come becausef the changes wrought by these black markets. If Blizzard thought that these markets were a net benefit to their gameplay, user experience, or their profits, they wouldn't be banning 30,000 accounts in just this last month of May.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Regardless of whether or not we like this idea, if it is illegal or unethical, that is something to take up with Google, not with GFF. My feeling is that we post Google's ads in good faith that they will provide us with good faith advertising.

If you feel that this is really illegal, then feel free to tell Google that they have ads supporting illegal actions, and they will remove the offending ads from their service. Otherwise, I don't really see why we should be moved to do anything about it. No one is forcing you to click on the ads.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I deal with the issue of gold farming and such the same way I deal with most other issues: apathy.

It's going to happen no matter what, blah blah blah the google ads can't be controlled, etc.

I suppose if you really wanted to take a stand you could put google ads on a global block, then at least you wouldn't be a part of it in any capacity, even an insignificant one.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Devo

In this guy's case, finding fault with GFF isn't going to solve anything. The ads are put up by google, and he's wasting his and GFF's time trying to preach the evils of gold farming here.

I'm not at all finding fault with GFF here, or trying to "preach the evils of gold farming" here. I don't play MMORPGs and I don't think GFF is at fault for the ads Google delivers. But it sure seems like an interesting little issue, as apparently do other people, so let's chat about it.

Also, I have a name and you could be more respectful than to refer to me as "this guy" when I'm, metaphorically speaking, "in the room".

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Haven't you ever cared about the principle of something? =\

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I have an honest question about this thread.

Why is anybody honestly caring about the 'MMORPG black market' when we trade MP3s, ROMs, and other illegal materials?

Jam it back in, in the dark.