the legitimacy of Tarot cards

My mom used to be very large into Tarot cards. She goes through many spiritual evolutions in her life (as do I). As a consequence of this she ended up buying me 4 different kinds of Tarot card decks, and 3 books on layouts for the cards and their meanings. I used them a little bit a few years ago and remembered being a bit surprised with their accuracy, so I decided to try them out again this morning just for the hell of it. I did a basic three card layout, 1st card represents past, 2nd represents present, 3rd represents future. Here are the results:
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Past: Five of Cups. Grief. Loss. Many regrets. Setbacks. Loss of a relationship, friend, or valued possession. Disappointment in love and friendship. End of a marriage or love relationship. You have strength of spirit to endure. Hope for a better future. Choose a creative solution to your problems. This is a temporary period and will pass.

How it relates to me: I spent a large majority of my college life dating this certain girl whom brought me into contact with the group of friends I now hang with on a dialy basis, etc. We broke up when she graduated (she was two years ahead of me) on fairly bad terms. She continually cheated on me, etc, and was generally considered to be evil incarnate for those of us fortunate enough to have dated her. Anyway, to make a long story less long, she is a very large disappointment in my past life, probably my biggest regret was not breaking up sooner with her, etc. So this card fits (don't worry, the other two connect even better).

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Present: Nine of Cups: This is the "Wish" Card - your deepest desire is granted. A problem is solved. Satisfying sexual relationships. Emotional peace. Goals are achieved. Dreams come true. Take time to enjoy your success and revel in its rewards. Material possessions are attained. Physical fitness and beauty.

How it relates to me: I'm a senior in college right now, but I've been stressing out over if I'll be graduating or not. It's a fairly complicated situation, but there is a lot of pressure on me from many classes and many people to finish up one degree this semester and then finish the next one this coming semester (my 9th semester). In other words, this card is telling me this shit will work itself out OK.

-------- (and now the most interesting one)

Future: Eight of Cups: Disappointment. Dissatisfaction. Tired of the current situation. You have a bad attitude. Take action. Leave your current relationship or job. Indicates travel or relocation. Look elsewhere for happiness. Make dramatic changes in your life. Carry through with plans.

How it relates to me: After I get my degrees, I'm planning on moving to Japan for a few years to teach! My friend told me about a program where if you have a 4 year degree you can go to Japan to teach English. He's going this year, and I talked to my family about signing up for it so they're prepared for me to be gone for a while.

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So in summary, these three cards really do represent the strongest emotions I feel towards my past, present and future. My past is largely filled with regret about my relationships, my present is focused on being able to graduate and get everything done on time, and my future is focused on moving to Japan.

Are these cards legitimate, or is it just a case of me drawing my own connections between my life and fairly general card meanings?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

You're drawing your own connections.

Tarot card readings, like psychic hotline readings and horoscopes, are specifically designed to be generic enough to apply to just about every single person on the planet. Tarot readings rely on a recieving a lot of cues from the person being read, are done in a sufficiently vague manner that the person - who wants to believe - fills in the blanks themselves. Note just how many different headings apply to each card, so that it can cover every possible angle.

Everybody on the planet experiences grief and loss, finds their desires fulfilled in some way, and is dissapointed. Hell, that right there describes the Buddhist view of the entire materialistic world. You could draw those three cards at any single point in your life, and you could find something to apply to each meaning, because all they do is describe basic human life.

Tarot cards are total bunk, used primarily to swindle money out of gullible tourists.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I think it is partially how they devise these card systems.
The people who write these interpretation books know enough about the nature of human feelings to be able to make what they say about what the cards mean appear as if they were the truth. The rest is then dependent upon the person who participates. The statements are made so ridiculously general that it is easy to convince yourself that it is correct.

I do think that you are not being critical enough about the whole thing. Let us take a look at these cards, one by one:

1) Past: Grief, loss, regret, etc. These are without a doubt the most common feelings anyone ever has in regards to the past. Everyone has done something in their past that, when prompted to think about them (such as a tarot card that says you feel regrets), they can come up with something.

2) Present: Wish, dreams coming true, etc. I seriously cannot help but laugh here. There is NO correlation that I can see between what you are saying about your current life and what the card is supposed to say. You described your life as being currently very stressful and hectic. But the card says that everything is going perfectly for you right now. If it were telling you that things would work out fine for you in the future, then that would be the duty of the "future" card. But this card is for the present and says that everything is hunky-dory, and you should just take time to enjoy this situation. Obviously this is not the case at all.

3) Future: Disappointment, dissatisfaction, move on with life, etc. Once again, this seems like another card that is over general, enabling one to interpret whatever is going on in their life to apply to this card. There is almost no one who consults with tarot cards who feels perfect contentment with their current situation and is not looking for answers for the future. Additionally, are you REALLY feeling disappointment and dissatisfaction with your life as it stands right now? This card is so overtly general and ambiguous that almost anyone who reads that will pull something out of it. Few people don't look to the future with the hopes of moving on or somewhere.

I am sorry, but it seems like you are duping yourself.
You have to critically analyze stuff like this, and it doesn't seem like you are.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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There is NO correlation that I can see between what you are saying about your current life and what the card is supposed to say.

Trying to hold "present" down to this exact moment I'm living currently is limiting your scope. You're purposely limiting my terms of "past, present, future" in order to be able to immediately dismiss them. The present is more accurately stated as my feelings concerning my current situation in life. And Tarot cards aren't limited to simply STATING how I'm doing, they're a predictive force, so if we want to encompass both present AND prediction, we have to consider the possiblity of it being a future prediction directly affecting my current life. But I'm sure you'll disagree and stick to your literalist-guns.

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Few people don't look to the future with the hopes of moving on or somewhere.

This card doesn't simply represent "moving on," it also represents "travel or relocation" - which is exactly what I plan on doing DUE to my dissatisfaction concerning the possibilities when staying local. The picture on the card shows a man with a walking stick going off in the distance - the imagery represent literal relocation.

Also, consider the fact that this card represents future and not past or present. This card would have little to do with my past or present, and in fact would contradict my past because I chose to stay where I was rather then the very real option of relocation or moving during that period of my life. The present card would make very little sense if it were Past, or at least remain extremely vague, but it could be applied to future. The Past card could represent either disappointment in present or future love, but it's extremely appropriate in Past considering how my relationship with that girl has shadowed almost my entire college experience.

Don't look at just the meaning, look at the placement as well.

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You have to critically analyze stuff like this, and it doesn't seem like you are.

I believe I am, but critical analysis doesn't equate to automatic dismissal.

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It's your mom's money, not mine.

I just gave my input.

BTW, thinking critically involves viewing the situation from the perspective that it is wrong, and analyzing how it can possibly be wrong. If the reasons and possibilities for why the aforementioned thought could be wrong (in this case, "are these tarot cards legit?") overwhelms the reasons and possibilities for it to be right, then one would have to logically conclude that it is more likely wrong than right.
In this case, people make cards that generalize as much about human experience as they can, almost literally boiling it down to a science, so that consumers will believe the cards as authentic, and thus buy more, and get other people to buy more. There are certain givens which you must start with:
1) The people who make those cards are making them as a business. To make profit.
2) Human experience and emotions are a very diverse pot, and as such it is possible for several general statements to be given for any such prediction which will inevitably be self-fulfilling in the mind of the consumer.

Anyways, keep us updated on whether your "deepest desire is granted" and "your problems are solved" and you get "satisfying sexual relationships, emotional peace" all of your "goals are achieved, dreams come true" and you achieve "physical fitness and beauty."

I was speaking idiomatically.

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If the reasons and possibilities for why the aforementioned thought could be wrong (in this case, "are these tarot cards legit?") overwhelms the reasons and possibilities for it to be right, then one would have to logically conclude that it is more likely wrong than right.

So what exactly is your case against the possiblity of Tarot cards really working? Do you have a case for logic against supernatural powers working in cards? This argument boils down to, is it more likely a supernatural explanation is true or a natural exlanation is true? If you hold the preconcieved notion that there are no supernatural connections with Tarot cards, you'll obviously lean towards the natural argument whether or not a better case can be made for the supernatural in this specific instance - which is what you're doing. I myself think this case is fairly supportive of a supernatural possiblity if looking at it without bias. If we accept both spiritual divination and natural probability as two EQUAL, legitimate causes, don't you agree that this specific outcome would lean more towards the supernatural?

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1) The people who make those cards are making them as a business. To make profit.

The people who make the cards now have no connection with the origins of Tarot. The cards weren't created 50 years ago in the blooming age of consumerism.

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These things are probably as authentic as Miss Cleo XD

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by FallDragon

So what exactly is your case against the possiblity of Tarot cards really working? Do you have a case for logic against supernatural powers working in cards? This argument boils down to, is it more likely a supernatural explanation is true or a natural exlanation is true? If you hold the preconcieved notion that there are no supernatural connections with Tarot cards, you'll obviously lean towards the natural argument whether or not a better case can be made for the supernatural in this specific instance - which is what you're doing. I myself think this case is fairly supportive of a supernatural possiblity if looking at it without bias. If we accept both spiritual divination and natural probability as two EQUAL, legitimate causes, don't you agree that this specific outcome would lean more towards the supernatural?



The people who make the cards now have no connection with the origins of Tarot. The cards weren't created 50 years ago in the blooming age of consumerism.

I agree with your statements in regards to naturalistic notions versus preconcieved notions, and how that will affect your criticism of certain things and events. However, I do not think that there are any supernatural forces that are ultimately at our very beck and call, whenever we have a question. The only supernatural forces I can concieve of participating in the manner in which you attempt to utilize would be of satanic origins for the sole purpose of distracting humans from what is really important.
Not assuming a theistic standpoint, I find it very hard to believe that some supernatural force(s) would participate in such a petty human ritual such as divination through cards. Why do/does they/it give a shit about whether you are happy with your life or not?

And you are right as well, the cards were created before the big rise of capitalism, but if you even DARE say that there was no such thing as swindlers, liars, and cheats before that time, then you are very gravely mistaken. Throughout history, people have had to make money. This is an inevitable fact of society. Magicians, fortune tellers, story tellers, gymnasts, etc. All travelling shows with their own tricks, for the intent of making money.
Nonetheless, I am not referring so much to the cards themselves being made by the people of today, but the books which tell you how to interpret what you have drawn.

I guarantee you that there is no consistency in interpretation throughout history here, and there is no longstanding tradition of psychics writing down the fortunes in these books for the benefit of all peoples the world over.
More than likely, it is a collection of sociologists, psychologists, or just a bunch of other people clever with words and minds, who write down these "fortunes."

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by valiant

These things are probably as authentic as Miss Cleo XD

Wasn't Miss Cleo indicted on fraud charges?

Jam it back in, in the dark.

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The only supernatural forces I can concieve of participating in the manner in which you attempt to utilize would be of satanic origins for the sole purpose of distracting humans from what is really important.

Do you think there have been times when supernatural activity from satanic origins have influence people through things similar to tarot cards? (interested in your beliefs here )

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And you are right as well, the cards were created before the big rise of capitalism, but if you even DARE say that there was no such thing as swindlers, liars, and cheats before that time, then you are very gravely mistaken.

I agree, but my point was mainly that Tarot cards were originally created for the purpose of divination, not for the purpose of making a living by charging money to tell people's fortunes.

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Nonetheless, I am not referring so much to the cards themselves being made by the people of today, but the books which tell you how to interpret what you have drawn.

Yea, I'm not sure how the cards have come to mean what they mean now. I imagine it was through some evolutionary process over the years. I think it'd be really interesting to find out what the original meaning of each card was. Perhaps this method of fortune telling lost it's potency when humans tried to classify cards into specific categories with words instead of letting the pictures represent the impact of the card.

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I guarantee you that there is no consistency in interpretation throughout history here, and there is no longstanding tradition of psychics writing down the fortunes in these books for the benefit of all peoples the world over.

But perhaps there's no consistency due to the infiltration of scammers into the tarot culture, turning it into a circus side show? There's no way to tell if indeed everything has been made up, or if there were true Tarot card masters and understudies at one point who took their craft seriously. Maybe once this became commercialized and marketed to people it became largely a game of psychology and money making, turning from it's original supernatural nature.

Ahahah, for some reason debating this topic is a lot of fun. I've never debated on the side of a supposedly satanic cult practice before, it's pretty interesting.

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Yes, I believe that satan and gang will attempt to use whatever means at their disposal to lure people away from God. However, it seems like in the majority of cases nowadays, his direct participation isn't needed anymore as it was, because of the self-perpetuation of the systems he has devised. Like tarot cards, or "psychics" and "fortune tellers." These things perpetuate themselves through people's greed and desire to get things and information the easy way. Life feels so much easier when you can shuffle around some cards and ask whatever spirits to tell you stuff.

The only thing that I feel worthwhile to say here is that I do not think that tarot cards are legitimate at all; at least, not how you think they are.
They will tell you stuff, yes. But they will only tell you what you already know, because all it does is feed you some vague suggestions, and your mind inevitably fills in all of the gaps. And then you praise the cards for being so amazingly insightful about your life, and tell all of your friends the wonders it can do.

I think there is little, if at all, that was supernatural in its origins to begin with, and I don't think that you, above all other people, will be special enough to manage to get to the roots of tarot cards(if there are any), and not just be another victim of commercialization.
I don't intend to sound mean; I just think you are wasting your time and brain cells, and you would be remiss to not stop messing with such frivolity.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

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However, it seems like in the majority of cases nowadays, his direct participation isn't needed anymore as it was, because of the self-perpetuation of the systems he has devised. Like tarot cards, or "psychics" and "fortune tellers."

I'm going to start a thread in political palace off this topic since it interests me.

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I don't intend to sound mean; I just think you are wasting your time and brain cells, and you would be remiss to not stop messing with such frivolity.

Meh, I've wasted plenty more brain cells wrestling with Christianity over the years, it's time I gave them a work out in other spirituality departments.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

It seems your thread was ridiculously over generic, and thus it had no potential but a waste of space.

Nonetheless, here is a question for you:
What do you consider to be the essence of "spiritual?"

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It was my understanding that tarot cards were traditionally more of a tool of self analysis than of divination. Say taking a set of broad archetypes and concepts present in life and human nature and then pulling out random ones and thinking over how they relate to you personaly in order to better understand yourself. That being the case you're of course going to be able to apply almost anything that pops out of the deck to your life in some way as vague as they are.

That being said i can see it being used as a focusing tool by the psychic or at least people who believe themselves to be. And if nothing else it's adds some flash that's not there otherwise which makes things more marketable and impressive seeming. And hell they've were used extensively by Crowley's bunch of magicians so much so that they even created their own variant for use withen their ranks. Which whether they were a bunch of nutjobs or not is up to the beliefs of the particular person but they were definetly more about keeping things private and withen their circle than marketing to the masses for cash.

How ya doing, buddy?

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Posted by FallDragon
Do you think there have been times when supernatural activity from satanic origins have influence people through things similar to tarot cards? (interested in your beliefs here )

No.

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Perhaps this method of fortune telling lost it's potency when humans tried to classify cards into specific categories with words instead of letting the pictures represent the impact of the card.

This assumes that tarot cards were ever capable of accurate predictions in the first place. It's not like magic and fortunetelling and whatnot just stopped working at some point in history. Those ideas have been left behind because people recognized them for exactly what they are: baseless superstitions.

At one time perhaps even the fortunetellers themselves really believed this stuff worked, but belief does not constitute reality. It's just a feel-good activity, telling a little story that stars you. As a method of divination it's quite useless anyway, as the generic nature of each reading makes it impossible to learn any specific details about the future. Much like a trashy romance novel, it monkeys around with your feelings and entertains you, but ultimately you don't walk away with anything meaningful.

You seem pretty determined to believe that tarot card readings have deep, mystical impart despite the total absense of any rational evidence to this effect, so whatever floats your boat. But if you're going to ask my opinion, it's a lot of ego stroking and nothing more.

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Monkey King

You're drawing your own connections.

Here's more of that Monkey King intelligence.

The tarot cards are a bunch of bullshit, unless your religion revolves around making assumptions and letting your mind run wild based on suggestions and vague interpretations.

Much like Nostradamus, if you ask me. Imaginary substance.

But then, I am not a very "spritual person."

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

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It seems your thread was ridiculously over generic, and thus it had no potential but a waste of space.

What the hell? Are you always so anal retentive? Try to have some fun in a forum sometime instead of thinking everything has to provide some kind of gigantic intellectual growth.

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What do you consider to be the essence of "spiritual?"

Simply, that which can't be classified through naturalistic/scientific means.

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Which whether they were a bunch of nutjobs or not is up to the beliefs of the particular person but they were definetly more about keeping things private and withen than circle than marketing to the masses for cash.

Interesting point, forgot about that. Crowley did make his own kind of Tarot deck and was certainly into the occult side for his own reasons, not commercial ones.

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You seem pretty determined to believe that tarot card readings have deep, mystical impart despite the total absense of any rational evidence to this effect, so whatever floats your boat. But if you're going to ask my opinion, it's a lot of ego stroking and nothing more.

Wow, someone saying that a spiritual concept can't be proven through rational evidence. That's a first. And I'm not determined to believe, I'm determined (more like, somewhat motivated) to prove. Do I think Tarot cards have spiritual associations? Most likely not. Anyone who thinks in absolutes, such as most here, will end up tripping over their own security blanket. Do I think MY specific reading was a product of spiritual associations? I dunno, I just found it interesting, that's all I just wanted opinions. The reason I'm debating it is, well, for the sake of debate. Plus I didn't want it to be a circle jerk, which it already mostly is.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Tarot is LEGIT!, son! My Palm Reader told me so. Any reading I pay $300 for has got to be the real deal. Also, when I wear the Crystal she gave me, it grants me Stamina +2 and cures me of bad breath.

Now seriously. I'm spiritual in a Buddhist sort of sense. But I couldn't have said it better than this.

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The tarot cards are a bunch of bullshit, unless your religion revolves around making assumptions and letting your mind run wild based on suggestions and vague interpretations.

And I say the same for fanatic members of any Organized Religion. If you need to be told, if your purpose needs to be implied to you through elaborate artworks on the faces of cards or someone preaching it to you, you aren't living. It's like using a Strategy Guide while Playing an RPG. You aren't playing it. You're being strung along a storyline. In otherwords, you aren't living your life. You're being...well...strung along a storyline of contrived of identical human nature.

Tarot is fun. So is Numerology. So is Zodiac. So is getting drunk.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

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Tarot is fun. So is Numerology. So is Zodiac. So is getting drunk.

Agreed!

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

A friend of mine I've known for years is the biggest adopter of Tarot intrigue that I have ever met. She never failed to interest me with her divine interventions for the first couple of years but after I saw her continually grind her life into the ground over (mis)interpretations provided by her Reader and/or her own lack of intuition, I disassociated. I bored of her calling me and crying over the circles she was running in her lovelife, worklife, and personal life. I dated her long before she started to sink which supplemented my frustration with her. I had known her in a healthier state of mind. I didn't make a conscious decision to unsubscribe to my heavily spiritual ornamentations. I hardly noticed they were gone. I guess that's what you call 'growing out'. For lack of a better term, I feel that's what I did.

I'm into 'Cosmic Order'. It's very much a part of me. I don't think about it every day. I don't worship. I don't wear it on the outside. I'm more the type to look at a tree and love it silently. Breathe and love it silently. Walk on grass and appreciate the plush beneath me in silence. Survey the clouds, stars or what have the sky, and do so without bothering to make it a point. That is when I believe that anyone truly believes in what they believe; when they're humble with themselves. Otherwise, people are still trying to convince themselves above all others just who they really are.

How ya doing, buddy?

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That is when I believe that anyone truly believes in what they believe; when they're humble with themselves. Otherwise, people are still trying to convince themselves above all others just who they really are.

I couldn't help but realize how this is completely opposite of Christianity's recruit-a-thon philosophy.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Originally Posted by FallDragon

I couldn't help but realize how this is completely opposite of Christianity's recruit-a-thon philosophy.

Except that this "recruit-a-thon philosophy" that you talk about is not a "I'm right, you are wrong, see how right I am" sort of thing(although some people act like that).
Nor is it a philosophy, for that matter.
It is a command given by Jesus himself to his followers to spread the gospel to the entire earth. We would be shirking our duties if we refused to do that.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

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Except that this "recruit-a-thon philosophy" that you talk about is not a "I'm right, you are wrong, see how right I am" sort of thing(although some people act like that).

Yea, it's more like a "I'm going to heaven, you're going to hell" sort of thing. Because that's less threatening to their opinion than telling them they're wrong. <.<

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It is a command given by Jesus himself to his followers to spread the gospel to the entire earth. We would be shirking our duties if we refused to do that.

Well the gospel has spread over the entire earth and 2/3rds of the world are still going to hell because they don't believe Christ is their savior. Talk about a waste of souls, God must not want much company in heaven since He made His message so ineffective.

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I'm not really a believer in things like tarot cards, like it's been said before, they are very generic and I think you can pretty much find anything to relate to the cards.

I do however, think that maybe it's a good way of realising things, and giving yourself advice. I think that it may help you realise things that you never thought about in yourself, and perhaps help you change your perspective a little.

Who knows? I think if it's a small scale thing then it can help some people if they want it to. However, when people trick people using mind games for money, I think it's rather wrong. Of course it's not the same but the whole psychic thing for example, tricking someone into believing that their dead grandmother is in the room with them? Not funny.

I remember seeing a show about it, those TV-psychics. They'll do stuff like send people out into the audience pretending to be other audience members and get the people to chat about who they would like to meet. All the while taking notes so that the "psychic" can conveniently conjure up those people. I don't agree with that kind of stuff at all.

Im aware that I've just went off on a tangent but it's past 1am, gimme a break haha.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?