[PC] Planescape: Torment. One of the best PCan gaems EVER. Represent

So I just finished this game and I was wondering about a few things:

1. When you kill

Spoiler:

Trias

, a fiend is released from imprisonment. I believe that this fiend is also mentioned by The Transcendent One at the end. Who is the fiend? I was able to beat the game without confronting this fiend and yet there was a FMV showing the release of the fiend and everything.

2. Anybody find it a little ironic that one of the guys who worked on the game (Ken L.) gives thanks to FFVII and VIII for inspiration? I have a feeling that most Planescape: Torment fans would condemn those two titles. Yet if Torment's story of an amnesiac guy divided within himself was inspired by the similar concepts within those two, I'll be the first to say that it handled it a whole lot better.

3. What can change the nature of a man?

As for what I think of the game, I think that my opinion actually mirrors that of UtopiaNH. That is to say, great story and setting/NPCs (well, I never cared for The Hive, but everything else was good) with a combat system that threatens to ruin the experience. Fortunately, the good parts do outweigh the evils of the Infinity Engine. Still, there's nothing more annoying than being killed by a swarm of enemies and being forced to resurrect your people + make them pick up their stuff again. I'm glad that the game doesn't place too much emphasis on combat, but there are enough combat segments (the Curst Prison perhaps being the worst) to make one feel the pain of an inefficient combat system. Heck, I think that the best way to play would have been to get rid of the others and just use Morte as a decoy. Overall though, it's a great game that definitely got to me in an inimitable way. My favorite parts were the Brothel of Slating Intellectual Lusts and the part near the end of the game where you confront your other incarnations. That Practical Incarnation was one stone cold SOB, but learning of your first incarnation and discovering your true name was a very powerful moment for me.

Anyways, feel free to respond to my post or just discuss anything Torment.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

I think the game is brilliant on a story/character level and merely so-so on the combat. In a lot of ways, I would have been happier if the combat were removed altogether as it feels like an afterthought.

I'm particularly fond of the endless and thought-provoking dialogue sequences scattered throughout the game. I can't think of any RPG that used dialogue nearly as effectively as Planescape did.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

1. The demon is the one you approached earlier in the game for help near Curst, who had been tricked by Trias into a life of goodness and servitude. Trias' death freed him, but I don't think he appears in the game again outside of his cutscene, and you can't return to Curst to see him.

2. No, I don't find it off at all. I played FFVII and PST around the same time and loved them both. They both feature an enormous city full of quests and subquests that forms the meat of the first portion of the game, before other areas open up. I was always a little (just a little) disappointed about how little there was beyond Sigil in PST (it really is the meat of the game); the amount of content outside Midgar has always staggered me. And don't tell me for a second that some of the spell animations weren't inspired by FFVII (I'm looking at you, Mechanus' Cannon).

3. I agree. The dialogue is the focus of the game and the combat, while adequate, suffers in comparison. PST is one of the most text-rich adventures ever--more than 1 million words--and it's that incredible literary quality which makes it stand out. Most of the Infinity Engine games shared that literate quality--especially BGII--and it's always helped them ascend to the next level in my estimation (and, not incidentally, some of the finest JRPG's go there too).

It's a fine game and I can't say enough good things about it.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

Originally Posted by jb1234

I'm particularly fond of the endless and thought-provoking dialogue sequences scattered throughout the game. I can't think of any RPG that used dialogue nearly as effectively as Planescape did.

Thought-provoking is right. Those are the best parts of the game whereas the worst parts are some of the fetch quests (i.e. the ones that don't involve unraveling a part of your past and/or dealing with questions about philosophy and the nature of existence) and of course the combat.

Also, a pretty nice score from Mark Morgan, which makes one wonder where he disappeared to.

I think that KOTOR II has a lot of thought-provoking dialog though. Just that it's intermixed with the Star Wars universe concept of 'the force' (which could simply be viewed as 'faith', anyhow; the lessons and questions as they relate to belief and consequence still apply).

Originally Posted by orion_mk3

1. The demon is the one you approached earlier in the game for help near Curst, who had been tricked by Trias into a life of goodness and servitude. Trias' death freed him, but I don't think he appears in the game again outside of his cutscene, and you can't return to Curst to see him.

Ah, thanks.

Originally Posted by orion_mk3

2. No, I don't find it off at all. I played FFVII and PST around the same time and loved them both. They both feature an enormous city full of quests and subquests that forms the meat of the first portion of the game, before other areas open up. I was always a little (just a little) disappointed about how little there was beyond Sigil in PST (it really is the meat of the game); the amount of content outside Midgar has always staggered me. And don't tell me for a second that some of the spell animations weren't inspired by FFVII (I'm looking at you, Mechanus' Cannon).

I like FFVII too, but from what I can tell, a lot of hardcore RPGers and CRPG fans do not like it. In fact, they often resent it. It had a huge impact, but not towards inspiring RPGs to incorporate more elements of choice. On the contrary; It seemed to inspire RPGs to become more linear and movie-like.

So that's what I meant when I said it seemed like an irony to me. Many Planescape fans would likely criticize FFVII as being limited by comparison. I'm not saying that I don't see the influence. (indeed, I believe I pointed out that you can see the influence on its plot; the Midgar to Sigil comparison is another similarity I hadn't considered) I'm saying it's an irony to see that the makers of Planescape (if only one of them) would credit FFVII and VIII (I notice that you didn't touch that one, heh heh) with influencing them when I've seen a lot of CRPG fans condemn those two JRPGs.

Anyways, I agree with what you say about the content outside of Sigil. In fact, that's the portion which contains most of the obligatory combat segments. Being assaulted by a group of monsters everytime I entered a new area was not fun.

As for the literary quality thing...I'm just going to say that the content of the dialog matters more to me than its volume. Not that I don't understand the correlation you're making. Another problem is that I'm not a 'story conquers all' kind of RPGer. I've always been more of a gameplay guy. Therefore a great story alone is not enough for me to place an RPG among the cream of the crop. Good game design is very important to me.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Megavolt

Also, a pretty nice score from Mark Morgan, which makes one wonder where he disappeared to.

He had to pull out of his next score (Giants:Citizen Kabuto) due to illness or some other kind of serious problem; I'm guessing this has kept him sidelined.

Originally Posted by Megavolt

I'm saying it's an irony to see that the makers of Planescape (if only one of them) would credit FFVII and VIII (I notice that you didn't touch that one, heh heh) with influencing them when I've seen a lot of CRPG fans condemn those two JRPGs.

You're totally right. Frankly, I think that a lot of CRPGers are critiquing the fanbase more than the game itself, which is perfectly valid. Planescape has often felt to me like a great fusion of western (stat-based, nonlinear) and eastern (story-based, linear) RPG traditions.

Originally Posted by Megavolt

As for the literary quality thing...I'm just going to say that the content of the dialog matters more to me than its volume. Not that I don't understand the correlation you're making. Another problem is that I'm not a 'story conquers all' kind of RPGer. I've always been more of a gameplay guy. Therefore a great story alone is not enough for me to place an RPG among the cream of the crop. Good game design is very important to me.

I can appreciate that. I myself am a 'story conquers all' RPGer, which tends to color my perceptions. As for the million words, I just think it's a particularly impressive figure. I agree that quantity of verbage does not quality make; just look at Xenosaga.

I was speaking idiomatically.

Quote:

3. I agree. The dialogue is the focus of the game and the combat, while adequate, suffers in comparison. PST is one of the most text-rich adventures ever--more than 1 million words--and it's that incredible literary quality which makes it stand out. Most of the Infinity Engine games shared that literate quality--especially BGII--and it's always helped them ascend to the next level in my estimation (and, not incidentally, some of the finest JRPG's go there too).

I keep trying to get into BGII but the difficult battles turn me off. It's also not nearly as focused as Planescape is (mainly because it is longer but also because it is far more non-linear).

I like FFVII but I don't think that it comes close to the depth that Planescape provides (not that the limp English translation helps).

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Originally Posted by orion_mk3

Planescape has often felt to me like a great fusion of western (stat-based, nonlinear) and eastern (story-based, linear) RPG traditions.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by jb1234

I keep trying to get into BGII but the difficult battles turn me off. It's also not nearly as focused as Planescape is (mainly because it is longer but also because it is far more non-linear).

I think what turned me off to that one was the seemingly more generic world, although the biggest part was probably what I felt was a non-friendly user interface. I may give it a try again though now that I'm more accustomed to the Infinity Engine (and to W/CRPGs in general). Even so, I suspect that Planescape has a lot more style and most likely a more interesting story. Although BGII does have David Warner as one of the voice actors... ^_^

Originally Posted by jb1234

I like FFVII but I don't think that it comes close to the depth that Planescape provides (not that the limp English translation helps).

For me, FFVII's greatest asset is its sense of atmosphere and mystery. I would even put it over Planescape in that regard. (Midgar > Sigil; but yes, I acknowledge that I'm a sci-fi fan) However, the muddled details themselves leave something to be desired, or so I've always felt. Cloud's story of being the loner who gets the popular girl is not as compelling as the Nameless One's story. Let's not even talk about Squall and the orphanage nonsense... Basically, FFVII and FFVIII get lost in the details sometimes. (which is why I prefer FFVI's sense of clarity; what is depth without clarity?) Planescape never does that (it does have many extraneous details that simply add to the fabric of its setting, but everything relating to the core story is pretty clear in the end, which is not the case with FFVII/VIII) despite its considerable complexity and for that it has the better story.

FELIPE NO

I was about 85% of the way through the game when my rig crashed. I did have a back-up of my saves, but I tried installing the game and couldn't load them. Is there any "trick" to that sort of thing, or can you just slap the save files into the save folder?

How ya doing, buddy?

Hey, aren't you the one who used to have a Nameless One avatar?

I thought that more folks would respond to this thing. Planescape was a game that I sought out because of its sterling reputation. Maybe it's more of a cult game than I thought. Or maybe it's just hard to acquire these days. Hopefully someone can answer your question.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Well, discussion in general just seems to be a bit lax. I'm pretty hard pressed to talk about Torment. It really was... a read. And while I can recall myself having a good time, I can't recall anything else about the game other than the fact that I didn't want to play through again once I finished. I think it's a dangerous line to tow, having an engrossing story that caters more to a completely different entertainment medium and game mechanics of questionable enjoyability.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

Well, discussion in general just seems to be a bit lax.

That's too bad. I guess the most busy years of this place are behind it then.

Originally Posted by Rotorblade

I think it's a dangerous line to tow, having an engrossing story that caters more to a completely different entertainment medium and game mechanics of questionable enjoyability.

In principle, I fully agree with that. That's why I've never personally considered games like Xenogears to be worthy of being called the 'best RPG ever' and it's probably why I'd give Fallout the edge over Planescape. However, we can still talk about how remarkable Planescape was from a storyline perspective, even if the gameplay is not up to par. The fact that I'm more of a gameplay-oriented RPGer and yet Planescape's story was enough to win me over is impressive in itself. It may not be as remarkable a feat of game design as say, Deus Ex, but it's still a memorable experience.

Edit: Hey, who changed the title and platform association of my thread?

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Megavolt

Hey, aren't you the one who used to have a Nameless One avatar?

I think that was my first or second avatar ever here. No worries; I'm going to look around the 'net again to see if I can find a trick to restore my saves but if not I'll just start from scratch.

Iffy game mechanics compared to what? I played Xenogears to the desert city, put the game down, came back a year later and couldn't figure out what to do, and realized that I had never figured out how the battle mechanisms work. I just button-mashed my way through the battles for 10 hours into the game. Planescape's mechanics were a bit more clear to me than that...

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by speculative

Planescape's mechanics were a bit more clear to me than that...

More clear, but maybe not the most enjoyable. I think I have more problems with the gameplay of Xenogears than I do with the gameplay of Planescape though. Either way, the specifics are a little different, though the same 'emphasis on story at the expense of gameplay' argument that Rotorblade brought up still applies. With Planescape's combat system I already explained my gripes (I'll add that positioning during combat is a mess, especially when you have multiple party members and/or are facing many enemies; the Infinity Engine is just not up to the task in terms of efficiency and control), so I guess I'll explain the gripes I have with Xenogears, starting with the combat system.

Deathblows are kind of fun in Xenogears until you've seen them for the umpteenth time, but learning new ones can be something of a crapshoot (people still haven't determined exactly how it works), and once you learn new ones, the old ones become useless (there's no benefit to using the old ones in terms of point cost). In the end I didn't feel like the combat system was differentiated enough (magic is fairly useless too) but what's worse are the dungeon designs. They're empty, long, and filled with random battles (random battles with the same one or two enemies that happen to be featured in that dungeon, I might add). Places like Babel Tower, Krelian's Lab, and the Shevat Shafts linger in my mind as some of the most tedious dungeons I've ever experienced. There's also the notorious Kislev Sewers, which have ended many a playthrough. The story is so much better that the gameplay often feels like an obstacle to the next plot point.

If it means anything, I suspect that I could reduce a lot of the frustrations I had with Planescape in another playthrough simply because I know the game better now. For example, I wouldn't get stuck not knowing what to do at certain points, I'd be able to better prepare for certain combat encounters, and I wouldn't be holding out the hope of finding some armor somewhere.

Anyways, I don't doubt that a lot of bigger Xeno or Planescape fans would think that some of my favorite RPGs are lesser because they have inferior stories or whathaveyou, so that's just how it works with people.

I was speaking idiomatically.