Song of the Week - Chocobo's Happy Christmas precedent debate

PLEASE ONLY VOTE IF YOU PARTICIPATE IN SONG OF THE WEEK

This is a poll on official policy, so I'd appreciate it if only people who vote and/or nominate vote on this matter. If I don't recognize your name, I won't count your vote with the final tally. Thanks in advance.

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Okay, in case you haven't been following the firestorm of activity that is the Week 63 Voting/Week 64 Nominating thread, we're going to have a nice little debate and vote here on the Chocobo's Happy Christmas precedent.

What is the Chocobo's Happy Christmas precedent?
In Week 10, a track called "Chocobo's Happy Christmas" from the Chocobo no Fushigina Dungeon Original Soundtrack was allowed for voting. This track is an arrangement of the extremely unobscure Chocobo theme, which would (hopefully) never be found eligible for SotW. People seemed not to mind, and I've taken that to mean that, as long as the arrangement is obscure enough, it doesn't matter how blatantly familiar the source is.

So?
Well, is this a good idea?

Disregarding the source is the easiest way to manage this; even if a nominated track is an arranged version of One Winged Angel, let it in if the arrangement itself is enough to pass obscurity guidelines. But on the other hand, certainly the fact that the track is an arrangement of OWA means that, in some respects, it's already not obscure.

Then again, we could reject arrangements if the source is not obscure enough. But how do we decide what is "obscure enough"? Do we apply the same obscurity guidelines to the source, or something looser?

These are just some talking points to get everyone started.

Okay, we've talked for a while, and I'm ready to vote.
Here's a breakdown of the poll options:

• Yes
  You agree with the precedent, and think that the obscurity of the source should have no impact on the eligibility of the arranged track.
• No
  You believe that there should be some sort of obscurity test applied to the sources of arranged tracks. Presumably this will be hammered out at a later date, possibly with another poll.
• Other
  You have an alternate plan that you have posted somewhere in this thread, or you agree with someone who has posted an alternate plan somewhere in this thread.
• Abstain
  You really don't care what happens.

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Okay, that's all I've got on the matter. I've set the poll to close in a week; hopefully this is enough time for adequate debate and voting. GO

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Source material shouldn't be the only factor. Although you have to assume that arranged works of high profile vgm become high profile themselves, in the rare occasion that they've flown under the radar, you have to weigh the different factors against each other, including how removed from the original the arrangement is.

Other. We should have no rule. We should continue discussing what comes up as it comes up. We should discourage people nominating based on what's been nominated in the past. I don't want to invite this specific sort of nomination with open arms and encouragement. I also don't want to see the door slammed entirely on a diamond in the rough.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

I voted yes, because I believe as popular as a theme is as diverse can be its arrangement. A theme merely is a melody and be incorporate in so many ways and styles. Yes, even an OWA arrangement should be allowed, if it passes the general obscurity test.

Even so, an OWA arrangement should be something completely new to be worth considering. It should be radical in what it tries to invoke. For example, since OWA is already a battle track, the last thing I want to hear is just some improvements in the instruments, making it more impacting, or slight arranging that still invokes a final battle feeling. I want a lullaby or a trance-dance track, which still retains certain characteristics of the theme. This is what I mean.

A good example would be Chocobo's Happy Christmas... while still retaining some charm of the original, the greater and dominant part was the christmas-feeling, therefore (even though I wasn't participating in SOTW at that time) I wouldn't even oppose to it, even if I knew this track before, because I think it falls under the category of being eligible.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

The popularity of the source material shouldn't matter one bit. However, there has to be significant distinguishing features of the arrangement for the nomination to be justified, else all we're doing is letting in what's more or less the popular track into SotW, which is the complete opposite to what SotW is about.

Any arrangement of a popular track should individually be held to a voting poll, to see if members feel that the track works in the spirit of SotW or not.

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I abstain. Like I emphasized in the voting thread, I personally don't care what the ruling is, as long it is (relatively) unambiguous, and can subsequently be enforced consistently.

I was speaking idiomatically.

I vote No. Chocobo's Dungeon may not be all that popular, but once people heard Hamauzu's work on SaGa Frontier II, Final Fantasy X and Unlimited : SaGa, you can be sure that some flocked to his older works to see how he progressed. At this point, I'm willing to bet a great deal of people had heard it.

For the Soule arrangement, definitely not ! Pretty much anybody has heard it by now. Anything Final Fantasy related should be discouraged. Make some effort and look elsewhere.

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

I guess one thing I'd like to know is why the "professional" fan-arrangements exception clause exists in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I'm as big a doujin fan as the next guy, and I'm all for getting them some extra exposure. But to me the clause seems like a fairly arbitrary loophole, designed to allow a few favorites from select arrangers like S.S.H. and MintJam to slip in.

I dunno, it just seems like roundabout way of nominating popular Square/Nintendo/etc. tracks, since the actual originals would never be eligible otherwise. I mean, is there any other real rationale behind saying that as long as somebody happened to work on a few commercial H-games later on, all their previous arrangements suddenly retroactively become fair game?

FELIPE NO

Originally Posted by Dhsu

I guess one thing I'd like to know is why the "professional" fan-arrangements exception clause exists in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I'm as big a doujin fan as the next guy, and I'm all for getting them some extra exposure. But to me the clause seems like a fairly arbitrary loophole, designed to allow a few favorites from select arrangers like S.S.H. and MintJam to slip in.

I dunno, it just seems like roundabout way of nominating popular Square/Nintendo/etc. tracks, since the actual originals would never be eligible otherwise. I mean, is there any other real rationale behind saying that as long as somebody happened to work on a few commercial H-games later on, all their previous arrangements suddenly retroactively become fair game?

I agree with you whole heartedly.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I can't believe the nom got this far. I seriously thought it was a joke nom that wasn't SUPPSOED to go anywhere. Anyway, no from me.

Jam it back in, in the dark.

Yeah, it is ironic that you give these arrangers the “professional” status because they composed for games, yet all everyone nominates are their arrangements from ancient times. Totally lost their face as actual VGM-composers. “Yeah your game music suck, I won’t nominate anything from it, but the SOTW clause enables me to nominate your awesome arrangements, thank god you actually dish out some even if sucky VGM-works”.<-- unlikely, extreme situation

But I guess these are the rules. Rules will always have gaps and holes, just prey people don’t poke around in them too much and possibly tearing the whole apart.

There's nowhere I can't reach.

As people can probably tell from my past comments (not minding if arrangements were not allowed in SotW ), I generally have a "the stricter, the better" view when it comes to SotW. There's plenty of obscure enough original vgm out there that arrangements of popular songs should've even have to be considered. Sure, it might be neat to hear a nifty new arrangement of a song everyone knows, but I'd rather discover an obscure game with excellent music (and in turn, an obscure, but excellent composer).

EDIT: Oh, and for the record, I'm familiar with Soule's "Squaresoft Variations." I'm not familiar with Mintjam. SV should not be eligible for SotW. Mintjam...again, I think SotW should be made up of original game music, not arrangements.

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I'm leaning towards the "other" option Dr. Uzuki proposed but with some elements of the "no" option (if that makes sense). I think some sort of standard obscurity filter should be in place to sieve out the established popular tracks (like FF and Chrono). More might be added along the way (as was the case with Katamari). But in situations like "Chocobo's Happy Christmas," where the source material is very well known but the arrangement less recognized, I think we should just let the track's eligibility be opened for discussion and perhaps use a poll to determine the outcome if opinions are very divided. However, I wouldn't be sure that another Chocobo Dungeon track would be allowed for nomination just because "Chocobo's Happy Christmas" got the green light. I think it partly depends on the participants' views and opinions as well.

With regards to arrangements, I don't think something like Soule's "Square Variation" should be allowed. The track did recieve a lot of publicity (on GFF as well). I figure many GFF members have personally sought the track out, partly because Soule is a well recognized composer and Terra's theme is very well loved (much, much, much, much more than the chocobo theme, I believe). I'm on the opinion that there are situations when a composer's popularity might work together with/against the popularity of an arranged track's source material to modulate the arrangement's obscurity level. So yeah, as with Dr. Uzuki, I don't think source material is the one and only factor that determines a track's obscurity. Like what some of my professors love to say, it's a multifactorial problem.

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I voted no, because I don't want to enforce a precedent. However, I fully agree with Uzuki's post.

I was speaking idiomatically.

As I said in the other thread, we all sometime get lax in watching nominations; some may wind up slipping through. For instance, when "Chocobo's Happy Christmas" was first nominated, I wasn't sure if it contained the Chocobo theme or not, and was also something of a n00b, so I kept my mouth shut.

Keeping the precedent opens up a huge can of worms that can, among other things, result in mild arrangements of non-obscure songs in SoTW, non-VGM arrangements from people who have arranged VGM in the past, and perhaps most terrifyingly of all, licenced tracks.

If someone feels that their arrangement is an exception, they can of course make their case to the rest of us. But allowing them without question because of a single long-ago nom is ludicrous.

No

What kind of toxic man-thing is happening now?

Quote:

I vote No. Chocobo's Dungeon may not be all that popular, but once people heard Hamauzu's work on SaGa Frontier II, Final Fantasy X and Unlimited : SaGa, you can be sure that some flocked to his older works to see how he progressed. At this point, I'm willing to bet a great deal of people had heard it.

For the Soule arrangement, definitely not ! Pretty much anybody has heard it by now. Anything Final Fantasy related should be discouraged. Make some effort and look elsewhere.

Quote:

I can't believe the nom got this far. I seriously thought it was a joke nom that wasn't SUPPSOED to go anywhere. Anyway, no from me.

Just want to remind you guys that we're trying to decide a policy here. Even if yes wins the day, that will not automatically make the Soule track a valid nomination.

FELIPE NO

I was the one who nominated Chocobo's Happy Christmas, and I nominated it because while the Chocobo theme is a very well-known theme, the game it came from was not well-known at all. Hell, it didn't even have an American release until its sequel.

I don't think that that track should set a precedent, though. Hell, I don't think there should be any precedent, period. This is not a common law contest, and one ruling shouldn't bear 100% weight on the next related ruling. I agree with Uzuki in that each contested track should have its own debate, instead of just arbitrarily letting it through because some track from the early stages of the contest was let through.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

I voted no only to prevent the Chocobo's Christmas clause from being invoked in some unforeseen fashion, down the road.

However, I will say that I would allow doujin arrangements of popular tracks, composed by established professionals, IF the arrangement itself has maintained an apparent level of quietude in the VGM community.

It shouldn't have been the subject of much fanfare at a widely recognized remix/doujin site.

This is the apparent difference between Soule's SV and Chocobo Christmas. Hamazau's piece wasn't nearly as celebrated upon its release in the VGM community, ostensibly meeting the "relative obscurity" requirement.

I'll also throw a nod of support for Dr. Uzuki's motion that future nominations of this sort be evaluated individually and not made subject to a blanket clause. Doing otherwise is cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

How ya doing, buddy?

Originally Posted by Crash Landon

I voted no only to prevent the Chocobo's Christmas clause from being invoked in some unforeseen fashion, down the road.

However, I will say that I would allow doujin arrangements of popular tracks, composed by established professionals, IF the arrangement itself has maintained an apparent level of quietude in the VGM community.

It shouldn't have been the subject of much fanfare at a widely recognized remix/doujin site.

This is the apparent difference between Soule's SV and Chocobo Christmas. Hamazau's piece wasn't nearly as celebrated upon its release in the VGM community, ostensibly meeting the "relative obscurity" requirement.

I'll also throw a nod of support for Dr. Uzuki's motion that future nominations of this sort be evaluated individually and not made subject to a blanket clause. Doing otherwise is cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

At the risk of sounding exceptionally lazy, I agree with everything in this post. This entire topic makes my head hurt too much to say anything original...

There's nowhere I can't reach.

Before I weigh in, I just want to clear some things up.

First, as Dr. Uzuki said, this poll is NOT about Squaresoft Variation. It is about the precedent as a whole. You can use SV as an example to explain your position, but do not weigh in here on whether or not you think it should be eligible.

Originally Posted by Dhsu

I guess one thing I'd like to know is why the "professional" fan-arrangements exception clause exists in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I'm as big a doujin fan as the next guy, and I'm all for getting them some extra exposure. But to me the clause seems like a fairly arbitrary loophole, designed to allow a few favorites from select arrangers like S.S.H. and MintJam to slip in.

I dunno, it just seems like roundabout way of nominating popular Square/Nintendo/etc. tracks, since the actual originals would never be eligible otherwise. I mean, is there any other real rationale behind saying that as long as somebody happened to work on a few commercial H-games later on, all their previous arrangements suddenly retroactively become fair game?

It's not really an "exception" or "loophole," as you put it; it's part of an enumeration of ALL tracks by professional composers. It was (contentiously) agreed upon many harvests ago that all such works should be eligible.

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It seems that a few of our no-voters agree with Dr. Uzuki's proposal of allowing the source to be one of the factors is deciding whether or not a track should be eligible. I think this is a good middle ground, and perhaps the solution most in keeping with the "spirit" of SotW, if you will.

Would anyone who's voted in favor of upholding the precedent be willing to accept this?

This thing is sticky, and I don't like it. I don't appreciate it.

I vote firmly for "NO". I welcome situations similar to "Chocobo's Happy Christmas" or "Squaresoft Variation", but voting "YES" closes off the ability to have a dialogue about any dicey case. My judge status allows my NO to be that large.

I am a dolphin, do you want me on your body?

Originally Posted by Liontamer

My judge status allows my NO to be that large.

Should be a NO OVERRIDE instead.

I was speaking idiomatically.

My thoughts on this matter are that the source of the melody should be taken into account when deciding if a nomination stays or goes. In this case, the source is one of the most famous and recognizable in the Genre and therefore dose not require any more praise or recognition (the same goes for OWA). Considering that SoTW focuses on highlighting obscure, original VGM that falls out outside of the "mainstream" it seems kind of self-defeating.

So I vote no on this as well.

How ya doing, buddy?

Just some random thoughts as they come to me before I vote.

While I agree there is the potential for abuse if the precedent stays, the pendulum might swing the other way if it were to be overturned. That is to say, I could imagine that the Metal Gear 'Sneaking Mission' track from some weeks back would be turned away in a post-precedent world (snice everyone nowadays knows Metal Gear), which would be a shame as I rather liked it, and wouldn't have heard it at all had it been refused.

Furthermore, I would argue that even if the hypothetical One-Winged arrange were let in, at this point in SotW's life there are enough dedicated to the obscure that there would be little danger of said arrange placing in the top three, so anyone nominating such a piece in the interest of snagging a medal would be wasting the nomination. On the other hand, if the nomination is made out of interest of sharing a piece of music they genuinely like, I personally don't see the harm.

As far as the OCR/doujin thing is concerned, I'd say that if one is out, so should be the other. A blanket statement that doujin is OK because it's 'more professional' essentially makes the issue more about production qualities than arranging skill, and the only leg that the 'it's OK because it's more obscure than OCR' argument has to stand on is that some of us (myself, for one) cannot browse Japanese sites at all well. Perhaps a good compromise on the matter would be to let both in, but only on theme weeks occuring once or twice a year. Hmm...I guess that makes this an 'Other' vote.

FELIPE NO

As an aside note, let me just add for what it's worth that the Dragon Roost Island track that slipped in awhile back was SotW's greatest accident. Although I was familiar with the original, that arrangement's heavenly and I'm glad I got a chance to hear it.

What, you don't want my bikini-clad body?

Originally Posted by Dr. Uzuki

As an aside note, let me just add for what it's worth that the Dragon Roost Island track that slipped in awhile back was SotW's greatest accident. Although I was familiar with the original, that arrangement's heavenly and I'm glad I got a chance to hear it.

There was arrangement?

Jam it back in, in the dark.