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-   -   Hans Zimmer Faces Second Lawsuit In Four Years (http://www.gamingforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7487)

Misogynyst Gynecologist Jun 12, 2006 10:24 AM
Hans Zimmer Faces Second Lawsuit In Four Years
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMDB
Gladiator composer Hans Zimmer is being sued by the Holst Foundation over claims the film's Oscar-nominated score is a copy of the late Gustav Holst's famous "Planet Suite." If the foundation win their claim for infringement of copyright they could make millions of dollars, because sales of the film's soundtrack have gone platinum. Despite Zimmer admitting on the album sleeve that he uses "the same language, the same vocabulary, if not the same syntax" as Holst, the music publishers who hold the copyright in Holst's works, J. Curwen & Sons have decided to take legal action. A Curwen spokesman says, "After a considerable period of discussion between the two parties it has become necessary to ask for the assistance of the courts." The defense lawyer says, "Mr. Zimmer's work on Gladiator is world-renowned and is not in any sense a copy of Mars. Just listening to the two works is enough to tell any listener this claim has no merit."
This is the second time Zimmer has faced a major lawsuit. The first one was back in (I believe) 2002 that a former business partner filed a lawsuit against MediaVentures (now Remote Control) naming Zimmer as illegally forcing people out of jobs/corporate power.

This new lawsuit - I cannot fathom why this group is even trying. Why not sue Bill Conti, John Williams and pretty much every composer since Holst who dares use a march in any of their music?

OmagnusPrime Jun 12, 2006 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeHah
I cannot fathom why this group is even trying.
The see the opportunity to win a lot of money. That'll be greed for you.

Agreed though, it's stupid and I'd be somewhat afraid of what would happen if they were to win as I'm sure similar claims could be made between lots of bits of work, and I know I've thought various soundtracks sounded a fair bit like the Gladiator soundtrack in the past.

Misogynyst Gynecologist Jun 12, 2006 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmagnusPrime
I know I've thought various soundtracks sounded a fair bit like the Gladiator soundtrack in the past.
Other way around - Gladiator sounds like things that came before it.

OmagnusPrime Jun 12, 2006 11:00 AM
That too. But there have been other soundtracks since that at the time made me think of Gladiator's soundtrack (in lieu of me knowing the previous soundtracks that Gladiator's sounds like).

Cal Jun 12, 2006 07:43 PM
Christ, I'll never hear the end of this from the fuckhat conservatives in #Scores...

DUR HUR ZIMBOT IN COURT HEY CAL DID YOU BUY ANOTHER COPY OF THE ROCK TODAY

Morrigan Jun 12, 2006 07:59 PM
Wow, what a bunch of asshats. They're probably suing him because the guy has money... 'cause I hear themes resembling the Mars theme in many more movies.

Free.User Jun 12, 2006 08:03 PM
I swear, one day major corporations are going to have copyrights on keys and chords.

You can't use A major bitch, it belongs to Sony.

Monkey King Jun 12, 2006 08:14 PM
For fuck's sake, John Williams ripped off Mars, God of War in the Star Wars score way more than Zimmer ever did. Bunch of lawsuit-happy gold diggers is what they are.

Misogynyst Gynecologist Jun 12, 2006 11:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkey King
For fuck's sake, John Williams ripped off Mars, God of War in the Star Wars score way more than Zimmer ever did. Bunch of lawsuit-happy gold diggers is what they are.
The difference is that Zimmer admits to it in the CD's linear notes. He kinda set himself up for this.

Cal Jun 12, 2006 11:41 PM
Zimmer, the P. T. Barnum of film music PR!

Zephos Jun 12, 2006 11:46 PM
Is this honestly surprising to anyone? Considering the state of the legal system at present, and the state of Hans Zimmer's output in the last six years, I saw this coming.

Also, as Lehah said, the big difference is that Zimmer admitted to using Mars, and obviously didn't consult anyone regarding copyrights for the music before doing so.

Misogynyst Gynecologist Jun 12, 2006 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephos
Also, as Lehah said, the big difference is that Zimmer admitted to using Mars, and obviously didn't consult anyone regarding copyrights for the music before doing so.
Yeah but then heres an interview from 1990 with Bill Conti - he lifted Mars for Masters Of The Universe and then defends doing it in the expanded Edel release. Why is it he admited to it 16 years ago and he's never been sued?

Thomas Karban: You don't feel bad about being attacked by the music critics?

Bill Conti: Not at all. We live in a different time. I don't plagiarise anyone. Do you understand the word homage? I say that in "The Right Stuff" there was homage paid to Tchaikovsky, but I don't feel that I plagiarised him.

Thomas Karban: There is also a so-called Hommage paid to Holst in "The Right Stuff" as well as in "Masters Of The Universe".

Bill Conti: When anyone talks about Holst they always talk about Mars. Dam-dam-dam-da-da-da-dam. You call that a melody? I call that a rhythm.

RadioDaze Jun 16, 2006 03:48 PM
Quote:
I swear, one day major corporations are going to have copyrights on keys and chords.

You can't use A major bitch, it belongs to Sony.

It's so scary, and yet so true...

Zephos Jun 16, 2006 10:25 PM
Actually, considering this current topic, it's more likely to be distant descendants of the great composers who "created" current chord progressions, cadences etc who would be like that, as opposed to faceless corporations.

Cal Jun 16, 2006 11:30 PM
Oh wow; let's sue Copland AS WELL AS Pat Doyle--they've both used a Schubert modulation throughout their career.

Cobalt Katze Jun 16, 2006 11:35 PM
"The merely good composer borrows; the great composer steals."

~Stravinsky

BurningRanger Jun 16, 2006 11:42 PM
On the one hand, I see where they are coming from, if I remember right some of the parts of Gladiator's score are cutting it dangerously close to being plagiarism. (Don't quote me that, I haven't seen/heard the movie in years.)

However, if they win this lawsuit, it sets a terrible precedent for others to follow...

Honestly, the Holst foundation's got bigger fish to fry. How about all those old-timer drum and bugle corps marching around performing excerpts of his Eb suite under a different name entirely, without even crediting Holst in name?

Misogynyst Gynecologist Jun 16, 2006 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
Oh wow; let's sue Copland AS WELL AS Pat Doyle--they've both used a Schubert modulation throughout their career.
What Zimmer did, however, was lift one of the movement's developmental episodes, the rising octatonic sequence in the brass. This is far more distinctive and original than the simple 5/4 ostinato, and Zimmer's use far more questionable. He even mentions Mars in the Gladiator linar notes.

Cal Jun 16, 2006 11:58 PM
Case is still iffy, regardless. Zimmer's arguably an electronic artist before a composer for orchestra (I'm presuming he does most of the conceptual fleshing-out on computers, here), and there have been many electronica names who quote (sample and dub) liberally from other musics without legal consequence.

Susumu Yokota - Debussy, Frank Sinatra
Wagon Christ - A whole lot of nameless '80s TV chiptune composers
Hexstatic - Tina Turner, New Edition, The Beatles, Daft Punk

He could just be guilty of kitsch.

Addendum: Although I must say, if this action scares the man into getting off his arse more often, then thank Christ. Energised Zimmer is phenomenal, but Lazy Zimmer is phenomanally frustrating.

Morrigan Jun 17, 2006 02:36 PM
Er... WTF, I just remembered - isn't Mars public domain anyway? How can they claim copyright infringement??

wvlfpvp Jun 17, 2006 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeHah
The difference is that Zimmer admits to it in the CD's linear notes. He kinda set himself up for this.
In the Special Edition releases of the Star Wars soundtracks, there's talk of how Lucas used a classical temporary score, and everything that's mentioned is all up in there, especially the first movie. Wagner in there at all?

(also: the battle music rocks)

Misogynyst Gynecologist Jun 17, 2006 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrigan
Er... WTF, I just remembered - isn't Mars public domain anyway? How can they claim copyright infringement??
Its not under public domain. I dont know the nuances of the law but the Holst Foundation is there to purposely keep the trademarks in place on the works of the composer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wvlfpvp
In the Special Edition releases of the Star Wars soundtracks, there's talk of how Lucas used a classical temporary score, and everything that's mentioned is all up in there, especially the first movie. Wagner in there at all?
HUGE difference there. Lucas used a classical temp track - Holst and Stravinski sounds are all over the place in A New Hope - which was replaced by John Williams's score. However, two moments were really borrowed (A 5/4 march ala Mars can be heard as the Blockade Runner is pulled into the Star Destroyer and the climactic brass hits as the Proton Torpedos go into the exhaust shaft could be either aforementioned composer). However, nothing was lifted as literally as Zimmer did.

The use of lietmotif isn't ripping anything off becuase thats like saying Williams is ripping off Strauss because they both use the modern concept of an orchestra.

wvlfpvp Jun 17, 2006 04:55 PM
I wasn't saying that, I'm just saying that I've heard quite a bit of Ring in New Hope.

BIGWORM Jun 17, 2006 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Free.User
I swear, one day major corporations are going to have copyrights on keys and chords.

You can't use A major bitch, it belongs to Sony.
Wow, that reminded me of the time a fake story got about Metallica sueing a small-town band for using the same chord progression in one of their songs. Unfortunately, with this current road of sue-happy companies, "artists" and corporations might actually start resorting to this in the future.

Misogynyst Gynecologist Jun 17, 2006 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvlfpvp
I wasn't saying that, I'm just saying that I've heard quite a bit of Ring in New Hope.
Okay, and? Make a definitive point, please


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