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Balcony Heckler Nov 27, 2006 07:24 AM
topsy turvy much?
 
Guys, here's a story I just found on a random website.

Woman Faces Fines for Wreath Peace Sign

in denver, A homeowners association in southwestern Colorado has threatened to fine a resident $25 a day until she removes a Christmas wreath with a peace sign that some say is an anti-Iraq war protest or a symbol of Satan

now, this is only a partial story, but I don't know about the rest of you, but I really have to question how far we have degenerated as a society that you would ever consider a peace sign "a symbol of satan"

comments?

Lord Styphon Nov 27, 2006 07:44 AM
A link to the story, or the site where you found it, would be helpful.

Also, I could be wrong, but I think I remember reading and/or hearing that an inverted, broken cross is a Satanic symbol.

Balcony Heckler Nov 27, 2006 07:54 AM
it was a standard peace sign, but still....

RABicle Nov 27, 2006 10:06 AM
Wasn't that the point of the peace sign though? Stemming from the belief that religion fueled war, taking an un-Christian sign and turning it into a symbol that means something else entirely, gives your movement a logo and establishes your opponents.

Something like that.

I'm more than likely talking out of my arse.

Drex Nov 27, 2006 10:44 AM
Hmm. Seems a bit odd - sounds like a pro-peace semi-religious or at least semi-festive person being wrongfully accused, but account for media spin and the fact that homeowners' associations have a large say in what can or can't be put up in a given community, and it might not be as big a deal as it sounds. Anything gaudy or out of the ordinary has to be cleared where my parents live. We had to apply for permission to build a shed, to add a sun room to the back of the house, even to put up a little playground set for my little brothers. It's just how homeowners' associations work.

I imagine if anyone reported that story to the media, it would be the accused, and they'd put a nice spin on it to get themselves in the local paper and maybe get to keep their ugly Christmas decorations up a few more days. If it took saying that their neighbors called a peace sign a satanic symbol, so be it.

Fleshy Fun-Bridge Nov 27, 2006 04:23 PM
Original Associated Press Story

Hosted image of the wreath that is stirring up the trouble:
http://www.sevenbits.net/imgbank3/peace_wreath.jpg

It looks like the warmongers felt that a peace symbol was meant to personally disparage them and their children serving gloriously in Iraq:
Quote:
Some residents who have complained have children serving in Iraq, said Bob Kearns, president of the Loma Linda Homeowners Association in Pagosa Springs.
Other residents are just complete uneducated nimrods:
Quote:
[Kearns] said some residents have also believed it was a symbol of Satan. Three or four residents complained, he said.
These are adult homeowners. How in the hell they don't know what a Peace Symbol is given its prevalent usage with the hippie movement in the sixties/seventies, as well as the ability to find it in just about any novelty or knick-knack shop is beyond me

Kearns then goes on to throw out a completely bullshit slippery slope argument:
Quote:
“Somebody could put up signs that say drop bombs on Iraq. If you let one go up you have to let them all go up,” he said in a telephone interview Sunday.
Removal of the 'offending' decoration requires an action by the Architectual Control Committee. The Committee, of course, is staffed by people with brains. Kearns solved this problem:
Quote:
Kearns ordered the committee to require Jensen to remove the wreath, but members refused after concluding that it was merely a seasonal symbol that didn’t say anything. Kearns fired all five committee members.
This sounds like an absolutely wonderful, intellectual neighborhood to live in.

I poked it and it made a sad sound Nov 27, 2006 04:39 PM
Since WHEN is a peace sign a symbol of SATAN. Holy CRAP, man. "Peace and love" is now a MESSAGE OF THE DEVIL. GOOD TO KNOW. It explains a lot of the bullshit that goes on!

The Menorah, you know. It's a SIGN OF THE JEW. And we all know that Jews are fucking EVIL. Best to remove ALL public displays of the Menorah! (Ha ha like that would happen. Ever.)

This is completely insane that people are actually trying to get a peaceful, holiday celebratory wreath removed because its in the form of a peace sign. And it's private property, ONCE AGAIN. "REMOVE YOUR PEACEFUL EMBLEM OR PAY THE CONSEQUENCE."

HOW MANY GREETING CARDS do I get at Christmastime celebrating "joy, peace and love?" Fucking HYPOCRITES.

No. Hard Pass. Nov 27, 2006 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita the Carpet Cleaner
http://photos.meetup.com/photos/even...al_348644.jpeg

Last time I checked this was the Satanic circle, not a fucking peace sign.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ke/jewgoth.jpg

YOU STAND CORRECTED.

Summonmaster Nov 27, 2006 08:24 PM
Kooky! All those old anti-hippies must be the ones proclaiming it to be a diabolical symbol. It's rather sad and ignorant really.

This reminds me faintly of how Merry Christmas was changed to Happy Holidays in our town last year. Some people are just so outspoken when they plain don't want something. They fire off the indignation card so quickly and people cave into it :s

Drex Nov 27, 2006 08:49 PM
This signals that the neighborhood has gone to pot and that it's time to move. If those quotes are indeed accurate, then that is one SERIOUSLY messed up community. At least the (former) committee members seem to have had some semblance of brains.

Snowknight Nov 27, 2006 09:32 PM
This case is so outrageous that I can't help myself from wondering if Kearns, the president of that homeowner's association, has some sort of grudge against Jensen or some other member of her family. I can only speculate on that point, but it is very suspicious that although only a few people complained, an order needed to be given to the comittee responsible for deciding on this matter. Kearns did fire the members of that body, adding further suspicion to the situation.
Any continuing developments will surely be interesting.

I have been told that homeowner's associations are generally breeding grounds for a sort of grudge-filled environment. Can anyone provide some insight into this?

Drex Nov 27, 2006 11:20 PM
Well, if one family gets the go-ahead to build something or do something to their home, and then that isn't granted to someone else, sparks fly. Or if one family doesn't take good care of their lawn, or has really stupid-looking plastic deer out on their lawn (like in my neighborhood back home, yeesh), or has kids that are always terrorizing the neighbor's pets, it doesn't work out well in the homeowners' association. My mom's been vice president of the HOA a few years now, and she hates the politics of it all. The only reason she does it is that no one else is willing to take minutes at the meetings. :P

I poked it and it made a sad sound Nov 27, 2006 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drex
Well, if one family gets the go-ahead to build something or do something to their home, and then that isn't granted to someone else, sparks fly. Or if one family doesn't take good care of their lawn, or has really stupid-looking plastic deer out on their lawn (like in my neighborhood back home, yeesh), or has kids that are always terrorizing the neighbor's pets, it doesn't work out well in the homeowners' association. My mom's been vice president of the HOA a few years now, and she hates the politics of it all. The only reason she does it is that no one else is willing to take minutes at the meetings. :P
Since you seem to know about the HOA, could you tell us how we can avoid moving into an area where the HOA is thriving? Around here, only closed-gate communities with a board get the right to tell people how to trim and decorate their own, bought-and-paid-for property.

I mean, is there a way to be in the neighborhood and NOT have to deal with this cocksuckery?

I think Snowknight is right, though. It screams of a grudge. But its plain outrageous that they would disallow it.

Leknaat Nov 28, 2006 03:50 AM
The original Peace Symbol was created by using the semaphore letters for "N" and "D" enclosed in a circle, which stood for Nuclear Disarmament. So, since we were looking for WMDs, wouldn't this wreath be in keeping with the war?

And the broken cross thing, I would say comes from the Rune that looks like the inside of the symbol, since that Rune means "death."

Anyway, here's an update:

http://www.examiner.com/a-423588~Sub...gn_wreath.html

Balcony Heckler Nov 28, 2006 07:43 AM
but the big question is that despite what people are calling the peace symbol, is peace and tranquility such a filthy word to most people these days?

Snowknight Nov 28, 2006 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balcony Heckler
but the big question is that despite what people are calling the peace symbol, is peace and tranquility such a filthy word to most people these days?
After a quick googling, I have found this site. I don't put much stock in the information on that page when considering its affiliation with some sort of religious organization.

For those of you not wanting to visit the site, this is the information it presents:

Quote:
http://www.exposingsatanism.org/imag.../peacesign.jpg
Cross of Nero - Or Peace sign.
Another sign that mocks the cross of Jesus. Also know as "The Dead Man Rune". It appears on the tombstones of some of Hitler's SS troops.
Again, I put very little faith in this source, but I take it as proof of the idea's existence--someone out there, at least, believes that the thing has satanic underpinnings. (I will conduct a bit more research in the library later today.)

I do not believe the issue here is the death of peace; I am fairly confident that the symbol's interpretation is merely situational. As I said before, the incident absolutely screams grudge. There is, of course, the possibility of the upset individuals subscribing to a fascist ideology and merely hating the idea of peace, but I find that unlikely; the circumstances are too suspicious.
Regardless, this case does not show that peace is a "filthy word" to most people, as it hardly involves most people.

Chibi Neko Nov 28, 2006 08:32 AM
This is just sad, this neighborhood is not the kind of place I want to visit when people take a peace sign as offensive or a symbol of satan.... wonder what would happen if I strolled there wearing a pentagram?

Drex Nov 28, 2006 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassafrass
Since you seem to know about the HOA, could you tell us how we can avoid moving into an area where the HOA is thriving? Around here, only closed-gate communities with a board get the right to tell people how to trim and decorate their own, bought-and-paid-for property.

I mean, is there a way to be in the neighborhood and NOT have to deal with this cocksuckery?

I think Snowknight is right, though. It screams of a grudge. But its plain outrageous that they would disallow it.
Basically, when house-hunting you have to make sure you ask the realtor and talk to the owners of the house you're looking at, once you're considering it seriously. My family doesn't live in a closed-gate community, but it is a development that has gone up in stages, and it's semi-enclosed because there's no through street. What gives the HOA where I lived more power (they're not too bad, there're a few people with sticks up their butts but for the most part they're pretty low-key) is that with the development going up in stages there're the "Stage 1" people, the "Stage 2" people, and people even newer than that, which is some sort of retarded status symbol.

The clearest way to find out if an HOA is ridiculous is to meet the president and the vice president and gauge them - and if they're cool, ask if the HOA is cool, or if it's Nazi Germany all over again. Cool people can be frank with you. And if not frank, at least they'll gossip about it. :P

Ayos Nov 28, 2006 12:17 PM
I found basically the same stuff Snowknight did, with one site claiming it was a demonic symbol, and another site (which I found to be much more objective) claiming that's a ridiculous idea propogated by radical fundamentalist Christians. Makes me think of the scary fat lady on... what was it? Trading Spaces or something like that?
Good site info here:
Spoiler:
So .... what is this "peace sign" all about, anyway?

Some might call it a "Witches' Foot" or "Nero's Cross" and attribute all kinds of occult significance to it, making the mere display of it a sign of allegiance to satanic powers, black witchcraft and human sacrifice.

The name "Witches' Foot" seems to originate from Koch (Koch, Rudolf: The Book of Signs Dover 1955 and first published in 1930), who also assigned this name to the Pentagram. He also shows an inverted Cross and calls it a "sword..." This is a good introductory book towards graphic symbols, though Mr. Koch seems to indulge in his own interpetations of many of the sigils much too often. Thus, as a reference, it is suspect.

I have yet to find any reliable references for the so-called "Nero's Cross" other than in the more radical fundamentalist Christian literature. These usually allege that the symbol represents an inverted cross like the type that Peter was crucified on by Nero. All representations of such that I have seen show a standard cross (arms at a 90 degree angle to the shaft) turned upside down.

The similarity between the Germanic rune for "r" and the peace symbol has been remarked upon by many polemicists. Given the simplicity of the symbol, I can only attribute this to coincidence. (note that this rune can mean "g," "m," "z," or "r" depending on the time period and the culture, and the Norse "r" can be either as shown or inverted.)

In the "r" form, it is taken by -all- writers about the runes to mean "protection," while in its inverted form it is called "calc," or "chalice."

Nowhere that I have found is it called a "death rune," as alleged by many anti-peace-symbol writers.

Others call it a clever Marxist symbol, or one of those clever plots of the Universal Conspiracy Against Everything.

In the 1960's, some considered it sure evidence that the wearer was a Communist, though the sight of it on the helmets of soldiers in Vietnam probably gave them serious fits.

Well ..... the truth seems to be a bit more prosaic.

It was developed by the British "Committee for Nuclear Disarmament" (CND), apparently about 1958. It is comprised of the two semaphore flag positions for "N" and "D," standing for "nuclear disarmament."

Some say that Bertrand Russell designed the symbol, but that seems to be more of an "urban legend" than anything else.

The symbol caught on, and has become a pretty much universal anti-war symbol, with much more meaning than simply nuclear disarmament.

Also, a link to the semaphore flag positions previously mentioned: http://www.sartori.com/nhc/flags/

It is also worth noting that although many people would associate the Swastika with Nazism, it was actually a religious symbol of Hinduism, Buddhism, et cetera, further evidenced by the fact that the word itself means good fortune or well-being. And no, I didn't get this by watching the Da Vinci Code, I've read it in many books, and if you put stock in what Wikipedia says, you can find it there too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

So, even if this peace sign was put on the graves of some of Hitler's SS troops, I wouldn't be surprised. And I wouldn't say that makes it evil, either.

I poked it and it made a sad sound Nov 28, 2006 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayos
It is also worth noting that although many people would associate the Swastika with Nazism, it was actually a religious symbol of Hinduism, Buddhism, et cetera, further evidenced by the fact that the word itself means good fortune or well-being.
This makes complete sense, though.

I mean, in this day and age, the word "Nazi" alone is almost synonymous with "evil."

But the Nazis at the time thought they were doing the world a favor. They were getting rid of those dirty, filthy Jews! They probably thought that this was the best idea ever. This would explain the use of something that was symbollic of good fortune and well-being - THE JEWS ARE GONE! GOOD FORTUNE TO ALL!

It is absolutely amazing how interesting symbolism can be in society. How powerful it can be.

The Wise Vivi Nov 28, 2006 02:25 PM
Yeah, I read about that yesterday night on CNN. I think its absolutely bonkers. Who cares if its anti-Iraq war or whatever. I mean, ever heard about free speech? Besides, I am sure its not hurting anyone. If you take offence, just leave it. Anyway, Christmas is about peace, can't a wreath be about peace?

As for propaganda.... whatever.

Such a Lust for Revenge! Nov 28, 2006 09:57 PM
So, since these people are going by the ancient original meanings, I wonder if they stopped celebrating Christmas altogether?

Balcony Heckler Nov 28, 2006 11:58 PM
quite possibly, but I still get freaked out. I mean, you show a peace symbol to a group of one hundred people, and on average 95 of those people will probably know what it means. I personally think these might be the same type of people that if you painted a pentagram in human blood, they'd probably think it was a star of hope


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