Certified Certification, anyone?
 

So i was looking into getting an extra 'qualification' on my empty resume, i discussed some certificates with my friends and they recommended 2 different certificates

1- The MCSE which is a Microsoft Certified System Engineer, and anything related like an MCSD (i think), generally stuff from Microsoft, and

2- The Almighty CCNA- Cisco Certified Netowrk Associate, and the followers, anything from Cisco, that is.

Now i know cisco kicks major ass and everything, but practically speaking what are the chances i'll need a CCNA for a job, whereas the MCSE might come in handy in almost anything PC, considering how popular Windows is in the Mid-East (I'll tell you how popular: No one knows Mac, and they think Linux is a detergent).

So what do you guys advise (Leave out the "Whatever you wanna do", i wanna do anything equally, just so long as the value of it is high enough in terms of weight of the certificate)

Also if you know any more certificates that are popular/meet more approval, please tell me about them, details and everything, i mainly wanna know that i'm starting to study something worth the time and effort AND money.

Do you already have the A+ cerification? I'm assuming you do.

Personally, I would obtain all of them. Sure, they're not needed now, but you never know if in the future they might be handy. Why not be a step ahead of the game instead of gambling? You don't want to be out-qualified and todays job market is cutthroat.

Also: You'd be surprised how many employers are requiring the CCNA, especially when a Network Administrator position is open.

Cisco certs mean money. They mean going down a path littered with other Cisco certs and even more money. I am currently trying to decide which path I want to take as well, and I am leaning towards a Cisco track. Plus it's more challenging {theoretically}.

MCSEs aren't worth the paper they are printed on these days. The market is so saturated with MCSE certified people that they have lost their value. We don't even look twice at applicants that hold only a MCSE because the information tested to get a MCSE is very basic.

A CCNA applicant is a different story. If I'm looking to hire an entry level network administrator to work for me, this is the certification I'm looking for. We don't even use Cisco equipment, however the Cisco certification classes teach a heavy amount of network theory. It goes well beyond the scope of simply learning IOS commands. The certification also demands that you hold an understanding of the concepts and technology computer networks are built on and offers a gateway to even better certifications such as the CCNP and the CCIE. A person with this knowledge is much easier to train in a network administration position and I would much rather train someone to use Microsoft software than to try to teach them basic network theory.

So if you are willing to take the advice of a CIO of a fairly large company that regularly interviews and hires applicants based on these certifications, I would highly recommend getting your CCNP. Obviously it can't hurt to get both a CCNP and MSCE, but the market value of a CCNP is far higher at the moment.

Thanks alot you guys, especially you Cetra.

Now more questions :D

1- How much does it cost in your country to take a course for a CCNA?

2- How long does it regularly take?

3- Do you pay extra for the exam? Is it mandatory that you register with some sort of academy/thingy to apply for an exam?

4- Can i ever do it on my own, at least for most parts? I'm a very good self-learner i went through highschool and 2 years before it without even one teacher and i made it to college just by that so i think if it's ever possible i think i can do it, but tell me if there are any big stoppers, like needing certain equpment/etc.

5- I read CCNAnythings require recertification every 3 years, is that as much of a pain-in-the-ass as it sounds?

6- Should i (must i, actually) aim for a CCNP, or can i get by with a CCNA or the 2nd level one (i forgot what it's name was)?

Appreciate the help, guys!

I don't hold any Cisco Certifications myself as I went the college degree route, but I can answer most of your questions. Note that the costs are based on what they are here in Southern California.

1- Courses can be taken at pretty much any local community college. Right now that costs $35 a unit and the CCNA course consist of 8 units.

2- One year for your CCNA if you take a Cisco sponsored course.

3- Yes, I believe the CCNA exam costs $108 US at the moment. And yes you are required to register with the Cisco academy before taking the test as well as take the test though a Cisco certified partner. If you take one of the Cisco sponsored courses, your professor will set this all up for you automatically.

4- Yes this is entirely possible. In fact 3 of our guys have taken this route. You can pick up some official self study books from pretty much any major bookstore. These books also come with a Cisco router simulator which allows you to practice all of the IOS configuration stuff without any actual Cisco hardware. The guys also rave about the usefulness of buying and taking the official practice tests Cisco offers. These aren't exactly cheap though. I don't know the exact cost, but I'm sure the Cisco site has some information.

5- Yes, the certifications expire every three years. I have no personal experience to know how easy or difficult this is, but I know the CCNA tests tend to change quite a bit over three years and no doubt it will require some study time to pass the recertification exams. Depending on the person though, our company doesn't require recertification if they don't wish to retake the exams. Usually their work experience with us is a enough for them to keep their jobs. Most people tend to use the three years to study to achieve a higher level Cisco Certification. If you achieve a higher level certification, this will automatically recertify all of your lower certifications for three years as well.

6- Most defiantly. Our CCNA holders make between $30,000-$45,000 a year. Our CCNP holders bring around $60,000 a year. CCNP holders are also more valuable to our company and much more difficult to replace (job security). Another route to consider is the CCSP which is a fairly new certification which is similar to a CCNP but focuses on network security. There is a great demand for this type of knowledge in the industry at the moment. I imagine we'd be willing to pay ~$80,000 a year to someone that could bring a high level of network security knowledge to our company.

In all seriousness, what you WANT to do does play into picking your certification. You have to consider the type of entry work you will be doing and how that will progress as you gain seniority.

They are different certifications. One is geared towards networking and one is systems administration. If pay is your concern, entry networking pays more than entry windows helpdesk. At the end, a Microsoft Exchange Architect makes just as much as a CCIE.

Being a MCSE/MCSA in Windows NT/2000/2003 employed as a Systems Administrator I can say that the certification is worth more than the paper it's printed on. It is true that there is a wide disparity between MCSE certified individuals it doesn't mean that all of us should be thrown under the bus. I couldn't do Windows networking if I didnt have an understanding of the TCP/IP protocol stack and it's related services such as DHCP, DNS as how it relates to Active Directory. I emphasis my practical experience since the MCSE is just a little line at the bottom of my resume. What makes that MCSE important is that it shows up as a term for search agents. Also, many Systems Administrator jobs add a footnote that a MCSE is desirable.
The time it takes to get one in addition to the extra exposure makes it well worth the effort. Just be sure to really understand what is required of a Windows Admin and you can avoid being just a 'paper mcse'.

Cetra is right on the cost/process involved in going down the CCNA route. I do however need to present an alternate angle on the MCSE route being a Windows Administrator. :) In NoCal, I command over 70,000 based on my MCSE and 7 years of helpdesk/sysadmin work. You can't just be a Windows Admin because you run XP Pro at home. ;)

Depending on your motivation and timing issues you can try your hand at lower level certifications before you decide on whether to delve into CCNA or MCSE realm.

An entry level cert for the CCNA would be Network+ from CompTia. An entry level for the MCSE would be a MCP in Supporting Windows Professional. An A+ is an all around good cert if you want to be a Systems Administrator as well.

I have the MCSE/MCSA in NT4, 2000 and 2003 and the A+/Network+/Security+/Server+ from CompTia. The ones of most value to me and the ones that employers ask the most far are the MCSE and A+. Being a test writer and item review critic for the upcoming A+, I can say that the material is much more relevent to the real world than prior iterations. It's also a good launching point to get used to how to study and how the exams work.

I received my Microsoft Officer Certification for Word and Excel in high school. Granted, the job market is full of people that know how to use Microsoft Office, but receiving certification does look good on your resume. Especially since there are people out there who figure that it's not important to list the skills on the resume. I know that's how I got my college job as a software specialist and avoided the gruesome task of cafeteria/janitorial work.

Cisco and A+ are definitely worth testing for, but if you ever find the spare time (and $50) then it couldn't hurt to test for Microsoft Office Certification. However, those tests can be difficult if you're not used to all of the features within Excel and Access. I heard that Power Point was suppose to be the most difficult since you have to have a 90% success rate. The more certifications you receive, the better off you are in the technological world...even if it is just a piece of paper saying you know how to use Word.

I've got a CNA in Netware 5.1 and a Network+

I'm a retard so I keep failing the microsoft tests.

LOL, it's not all your fault if you use the practice tests. I took a practice test for Word and I was able to pass with one of the highest scores in the school. However, when they rennovated the practice tests for Excel, the practice test was nothing like the actual test, so I had to retake it a second time b/c it was going into deeper detail such as goal seeking and amorization (sp?), which are parts of Excel that I rarely see anyone use.

In all honesty, I would first aim for the company you want to impress before getting any certifications. I dove in to community college right after highschool to pursue the MCSE, A+, NET+, CNE, even the stupid MOUS. I ended up having to dedicate a lot of time for the MCSE, only to see the cost of taking the tests, and the cert expires every four years anyways. I was working for all the certs I could get, but every company I ended up applying for wanted a college education first, then certs on top of that. There are jobs that only require an A+ or a NET+, but don't expect to make so much dough on that stuff. I ended up getting an associates degree in Information Systems/Technology, and I never bothered with taking the tests for the certs.

Now, as for my homegirl Shawna, she left highschool with the intention of working for Namco in Chicago. Namco told her to get a double masters in Graphic Design and (somthing else, I forget). She went to Columbia Community College of Chicago, got her stuff, but before she could submit her resume, Nintendo of America knocked on her door with a job offer. She makes uber amounts of dough as a lead game tester.

Now if you really just want to turn over dough without wasting the time of going to college, learn how to fix Macs. It may sound like something out of left field, but my buddy Dave charges $120 per hour fixing Macs. He can charge so much for the six years of experience under his belt, but diving in now would be better than later.

Fatt you're right, a college degree is needed anyway, i'm probably gonna major in micro-economics or accounting, but where i live the major will have NOTHING to do with what you end up doing, all you need is the right connections and those "icing" certificates.

So don't worry, i won't just take the CCNA and sit on my ass waiting for a job =D, i'll finish college too (try to use the CCNA to work while i'm at it) and gather a couple more certificates then probably become an e-marketing specialist or something (Yeah i know, we're in a crazy country)

Yeah btw i'm in Egypt..

I have my A+ but one of the areas they never covered throughly was networking. Anybody know of any good colleges in the midwest that actually still teach this stuff? Cause I'm having a hard time find a college that does anymore. I keep finding "Intro to Word" and similiar crap.

I don't want to just study for a test and be handed some certification.

My recommendation is to finish college and get a degree. A degree looks a lot better because it (usually) means that you have hands on training. A certification means that you took a test. For all anyone knows, you are a lucky guesser. :P

Also, MCSE is utter shit. It would have cost me around $10000 to get the certs and all. To top that slap in the face, it expires after a few years. I'm not made of money.


I got my Net+ certification with basic networking knowledge. I also hate networking. =D

Spend $1400 in building a 3 pc lab to simulate domain environment, and another 500 in books. Add in another $1000 for examinations. Around 3k for certifications and practical knowledge that goes with it.

and of course the certification expires in 4 years. My MCSE in NT4 isn't worth much nowadays with 2003 and Vista on the horizon isnt it? Microsoft itself doesnt even cancel out the certification - the industry does it.

The A+ and Network+ never expires. However, I was tested on TOKEN RING when I took it originally. I really doubt that bus and ring networking toplogies apply today.

I really want to shake TDT's hand. I was shy to come out and say it, but dude is absolutely right. I was told back in 2001 just when I finished up my Windows Server 2000 course that, to get my MCSE, there were seven certification tests to take. Each test cost at least $1000 a piece, and the grand total was about $15,000. Every four years after that, you need to recertify at the same cost. I went to community college so I wouldn't have to pay more than $2000 for a solid education, so of course I stopped my trek for the MCSE or even the MCSA right then and there.

As for my A+ and Net+ pursuits, I read the books and took a couple classes to prepare myself, but then I realized that those certs never expire. If an employer hires you just because you have a cert in something that never expires, you are going to have suckers who specialize in DOS 2.5 and 8088 chipsets. Unless you want help connecting to your BBS with your analog modem, their knowledge is completely obsolete. If they would require recertifications every four years, you could eliminate all the dinosaurs and the crammers.

It's just really fusturating to know that some employers really do value these certs when you know you're really getting screwed for it.

Each test cost $100 to take? If you are saying that's how much the training cost ($1000 each) how is that a slap against the MCSE? First, $10,000 is a whole lot more than what I've seen for full classes. Second, Microsoft doesn't force you to attend these classes. It's like saying the GMAT cost $8,000 which is blatently false. The test itself is $150. However you educate yourself to achieve it is totally on you.

It is also not true that you pay the same cost. Microsoft has always had a upgrade path to recertify in the latest operating systems. You had to have 6 exams to certify in NT4. I took special upgrade exams that only required 3 exams to upgrade to 2000. Books plus test cost a total of $600 or so for me. It was only ONE more test to recertify from 2000 to 2003.

Well, I certified myself in A+ in 1997. If I have been working since then, employers can safely assume that my knowledge has been updated through practical experience. If you took the cert, sat on it for a few years and then got a job later then your knowledge relevency can be questioned.

You don't have to be screwed to get certified. Every post I am making here is dispelling false statements. I mean come on, who can rightfully complain that if they got certified in Vista next year that it would expire 4 years after that?
The price of being in MIS/IT is that you must keep pace with technology. It's the same with programming. If you are a Cobol expert, save for limited cases you are worthless in today's C/PHP/JAVA world.

People somehow hate Microsoft enough to not look at their certs objectively and fairly.

I do understand where you are coming from Fatt but there are better ways to slap 10k down to take classes and get certified and still wonder if you got any useful information that makes you hirable.

Are you still looking into working or getting certified in IT Fatt? I'll be more than happy to help you put together an affordable lab environment down to the free 30 day eval versions of all Microsoft O/S software. I know that no one pays for M$ stuff anyways but its out there for the 1% of the pop who buys all their software. :)

Actually, what I was told was the cert tests each cost over $1000 to take, failure or not. I also was told that their were seven tests to take total. To top it all off, the total cost of the full on certification would be about $15,000. I am getting this info from two separate people in 2001, and if they are both wrong, then I apologize.

I'm happy to know that Microsoft does offer recert paths that are cheaper. I was never informed of this.

I dig it if you get certified and keep up with current technology. I salute that. On the other hand, I have seen dudes who wave their 10 year old A+ cert around who have never used an OS beyond Win98. I have also seen dudes who are only worth the paper their names are written on. My former classmate Sanjay would play videogames in class while I was installing SCSI devices on 486s (for all you critics, despite popular belief, it is possible to run SCSI devices on 486s, but I highly don't recommend it). I saw this guy cram using my manuals and interviews with people who just got certified. He never took apart a computer in his life, but he took the test, and passed. I'm not getting certified, or Microsoft, but I do have something against those who cheapen the value of a cert. Please don't get me wrong, I know these people wouldn't last a day in the real business world, but as a business man myself, if I hire a dud, I lose faith in who educated them. I know better than to blame a reputable cert for a bad employee, but not all employers know what certs are reputable.

It urks me that you say COBOL. I actually know COBOL, and it makes me want to die :mad: . On the other hand, learning COBOL helped me to pick up SQL and MS Access/Excel much easier than my classmates, so it wasn't a complete waste.

The classes for the MCSE, plus books, cost me roughly $1200 at Oakton Community College. I only got as far as getting certified for the MCSA, but I quit after hearing the costs.

I decided not to go for the A+ because I kept failing the WinNT practice exam. We never really covered much of the NT part, as I had more fun breaking computers and electrocuting myself. Remember kids, for your own good, don't take power supplies apart. If it works, it works. If it don't, don't fix it, just toss it.

I never got my Net+ because I couldn't find anybody who offered it at the time. That and I was too lazy to really look hard anyways, as I hardly saw any businesses who recognized a Net+ (most assumed that if you have an A+, you should have networking experience to back it up).

In the end, I got my degree to show my nervous clients that I have some solid education in something. I run a small business that does technology consulting and database/website development. I looked for a job for four years in my fields of expertise, and through my search, very few companies I saw honor even some major certs. Even MCSEs are expected to have a few years experience before being offered a real job. I decided if no job want's me, I'll make my own.

The bottom line is, I can only recommend getting a cert if you know a company that will hire you because of the cert. Most companies will want to see some type of portfolio or track record or list of contracts to show your experience in the field before they want to see your education or certs. This doesn't mean you shouldn't get certified! Just know what you are getting in to!

The A+ and Network+ certifications are always worth it for anyone going into Network Administration. They are more money than any individual Microsoft (MCP) or Cisco cert, but they give an employer the impression that you have *some* experience and are willing to educate yourself. Net+* covers all kinds of things that you'll need and it's a shame that it isn't pushed more to the people just starting out and looking for ways into the industry.

A+ is a basic certification that explains that you are (or could be if you practiced what you answered) competent in systems setup/repair. If you had trouble with it due to electrocuting yourself with an open power supply, you don't deserve the cert. Study guides are plentiful, and they'll cover enough to pass the exam while being useful for those that really need to learn the trade as well. They'll all warn against opening a PSU or monitor.

MCSE/MCSA, these ones vary. I'd say they are absolutely worth taking if your employer will pay for them. The exams can be pretty rough if you aren't 'cheating', as they cover some obscure stuff and put *way* too much emphasis on doing things MS's way. If you look into the exams you'll see that the difference between what an MCSA knows, and what an MCSE knows is very small. I chose to get the MCSA with the option of upgrading to the MCSE later if I wanted to, but I've not seen a reason to do so yet. With the introduction of Windows 2000 the MCSE was bumped up to requiring 7 exams from the 6 for NT.

I've never really looked at doing the Cisco exams yet. I'll gladly go that route in future, but from experience with Cisco routers, you'll know most of what you need to from Network+ and a designing (MS) network exam book/course to be able to work on their stuff. That is, after learning about their OS, and which one is on the device(s) you are working with. This certification is massively over valued, as few people will need to know all the ins and outs of Cisco's stuff in order to setup a perfectly (!?) designed network. But it being massively over valued makes it quite a nice thing to have until more employers realize that they are looking for skills in their employees that they will never, ever require of them.

*TonyDaTiger, I WISH token ring technology wasn't dropped the way it was. SO many advantages for a closed network.

This is great stuff. I'm really happy to see more participate.

I have another question. Is there a Novell cert, and how expensive is it? I know there has to be a Novell cert out there, but I never bothered to look in to it.

http://www.novell.com/training/certinfo/allcerts.html

I don't know anyone that has taken their Linux certs, so I can't speak on those. But the CNA/CNE Netware ones used to carry a lot of weight in the industry. These days since Netware isn't as popular (A bloody shame..), it's likely not worth taking anymore.

If I were to ever take a Linux certification it'd likely be Novel's. Being a recognized company, and Suse/Netware being products that I liked better than say Red Hat.

From Microsoft's Site:

also, info on a MCSE upgrade path from 2000 to 2003.

I am very sorry to hear that you got your info from two people completely talking out of their ass. :(

I see no reason why a 486 wouldn't support a SCSI setup. If anything, it would still run better than its IDE counterpart because you are offloading a lot of I/O operations onto the SCSI card. I've never tried it myself though. I didnt have a SCSI setup until the Pentium 75mhz or so. :)

Definently. I agree, and everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Not all MCSE's are badass but not all of them are worthless either. :) I have my own ways of interviewing Microsoft people. "Explain the difference between Share level and NTFS permissions..". If you dont know this thoroughly as an MCSA/MCSE you need to get the hell out.

LOL. I took a Cobol class as well. It takes like half a page of code to print "Hello World!". I have a friend who is a Cobol programmer in the medical profession making close to triple digits. Cobol programmers can be rare and you don't change working code in the medical field often. :)
Yeah, the nice thing about programming is a good programmer can code in any language - just have to learn the syntax.

Yeah, the A+ exam hasn't been the best in previous years but is better now. Someone with 6 months of experience most likely isnt going to work on NT systems. Later iterations of the exam focus on the 2000/XP Desktop versions which is far more relevent for the experience base.

Yeah. I agree. Using NTBackup instead of Vertias Backup-Exec. pssssssshh
Disk Manager raid/dynamic volumes over my adaptec raid controller? pssssshhhhh That garbage is load and dump knowledge. :)

LOL. But one cable getting kicked out will bring down your entire networK? ;)

PUG is right about Novell. It used to be pretty well respected but Novell is pretty much dead these days.

Huh, I found out a lot of information in this one thread alone. Seems anything CC > MCPs, and that's sad. I'll definitely be heading into school for my CCNA come the fall.

I should clear up my comment I made about the MCSE. I didn't mean to imply that the knowledge held by a MCSE is worthless, rather the market worth of MCSEs themselves are next to nothing at the moment. What I mean by this is there are so many people out there with MCSEs that employers like myself can easily find a MCSE who is willing to work for $25-30K or less a year. That's great for me, but bad news for MCSEs or potential MCSEs.

I'm not saying it is impossible for MCSEs to find great paying jobs, but due to the current competition in the market for that level of knowledge it is going to be very difficult to find such a job. Right now you have a much higher chance in landing a well paying job with a CCNA.

Yes but not all MCSE's are created equal. There is a wide disparity between how experienced and skilled between me MCSE and joe MCSE. It's like saying I have a physics degree and Bob has a physics degree. I set the curve in all my classes and Bob barely passed with C's. Or my 4.0 physics degree stacks up to Joe's degree of 4.0. I went to a rank #4 school, Joe went to a rank #30.

I wouldn't trust my Exchange server to someone I am only paying 30k a year to. Besides, if they were an actual qualified Exchange Administrator they would soon find an opportunity that would pay triple their salary.

I really find it absurd that someone would apply for a Systems Administrator position that pays a little over double In-N-Out wages.

Are there other working MCSA/MCSE's out there? I feel there is a lot of speculation out there on CCNA vs MCSE wages unless my company is the only one that pays 60-80k for MCSE administrators. Besides in terms of # of tests. It's 1 test for a CCNA and 7 test for an MCSE. Apples to apples would be a Microsoft MCP to a Cisco CCNA.

I'm glad someone started this thread. It's a kick in the ass for me to go advance my knowledge some more. Anyone know Microsoft Exchange well or interested in getting Vista certified? Could use someone to bounce/trade ideas with. :)