The annual Seal Hunt
 

Last night I watched Larry King Live about the annual seal hunt debate between the McCartneys and Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams. Me being a Newfoundlander and who’s family has been in the hunt for many generations… the McCartneys really insulted our province and surprised me on how uneducated they where on the topic, and they really seemed like intelligent people!

What first pissed me off is that society would rather listen to uneducated stars then a Newfoundland native who knows the facts! Not only that, but the McCartneys also justified the stereotype that stars are rude, because they always interrupted Danny whenever he was explaining all the facts (because they where denying the truth) and they where allowed to do it! However when the McCartneys said something wrong and Danny tried to correct them, Danny was told to back off.

The McCartneys need to shape up and stop denying that we hunt the seals with guns! Not clubs like it was done in the past! Seals are not endangered for there are more than 5 million swimming around! We use all parts of the seal, not just skin, and for the love of god… stop having your pictures taken with baby seals! We don’t even touch those and it was made illegal since 1987! If you are trying to make a statement, don’t sit around seals that aren’t even targets!

The seal hunt is a big income to families that live along the coast, I nearly screamed at the TV when the McCartneys said not a lot of money is earned by seal hunting…. Sure… 20 to 25,000 is not a lot of money to a millionaire, but it is to us!

The McCartneys are making assumptions on popular misinformation and refused to look at the facts and from a hunter’s perspective. It is insulting when someone who comes to Newfoundland for the first time and pass judgment on something they know nothing about!

It's the usual celebrity photo opportunity. I lost my respect for Paul McCartney a long time ago. Seriously, animal rights activists seem a shallow bunch to me. And then there's the incredibly obvious argument against vegetarianism, that animals eat eachother. I don't under stand how a lion biting into a gazelle's neck is more humane than quickly killing an animal. We should be worrying more about cruelty to people than cruelty to animals.

I agree in that sense. My cousin became a vegetarian because of the way meat way meat is processed and how harmful to the environment it is, however there are organic meats that are grain-fed.

I new these stars where being used as soon as they came to the airport. They don't believe it, but then again, they don't believe in the facts either..

Ugh. Where to begin.

First, lay off the exclamation points! They are really annoying! And they make you look like a mental case! zomg!

Second, I agree that the McCartneys were unfortunately ill-informed about the specifics of the seal hunt. They are, as Williams said, being used by organizations like IFAW. However, to believe everything your government tells you is also unwise. I appreciate your outrage, but I think it may be misdirected.

The cute little baby seals that Paul and Heather were posing with (the white coats) will be killed in three weeks time. They won't have white coats anymore, but they weill be the same baby seals we saw on tv last night. They will be shot in the head, clubbed in the head, or ice-picked in the head. "90% killed by bullet" is not the same as "100% killed by bullet." What happens to the other 10%? I'm not sure. If we're talking 10% of a 200,000 seal quota, then that's 2000 animals killed in an uncpecified way, possibly by clubbing.

I don't like the seal hunt. I have never liked the seal hunt. I do not have very much respect for those who particiapte in it, and that is unlikely to change. On the other hand, I appreciate the necessity to cull the herd, for the sake of conservation. The population cannot be allowed to outgrow its food supply, or there will be many more seals dying a far more painful death.

What I'm trying to say is that the McCartneys were right, as was Williams. I don't believe the hunt can be completely abolished, but I do think it should be more highly regulated, monitored closely while it occurs by DFO and independant organizations.

I'd like to caution you, Neko, not to immediately take up arms in support of the 'hunters.' Honestly, the seal hunt isn't much of a hunt at all. It's not very hard to kill slow-moving juvenile seals on an ice floe. This is not hunting, but a massacre. It may be a necessary massacre, but it is not a hunt. Second, Newfoundland is changing. It is better for you to embrace this now, than to hold on to things that simply aren't there anymore. If you're expecting to make much of a living off the sea in Newfoundland, you are sadly mistaken. The province is no longer what it once was. Get an education, get a trade, get a job off the water. There is no future in this anymore. Newfoundlanders lived off the water, now they live off the government while they try to adapt to the loss of the Northern Cod. Personally, I don't see the appeal of risking life and limb anyway. Previous generations of Newfies did it because they had to; you don't have to, and if I were you, I'd be thankful for that.

They just enjoy the sensationalism.
Also they love the attention of being considered "caring, loving, sensitive people;" they love people to love them in that way. It is more than likely a sad attempt at trying to alleviate their guilt for past misdeeds.

Yeah, Fyodor, it'd be really great if you could, you know, ever actually PROVE anything you say.

Work on that.

I don't see any problem with clubbing a few baby seals. Especially if you make a profit off it. Seriously, if you just kill the adult seals the babies and youngin's die anyway right? So why not club/shoot the babies. Just make sure there's no cameras around this time eh?

Well, I suppose that's why you're a disgusting sack of excrement.

I choose to believe that most Newfoundlanders, and indeed most people, are not so. Perhaps I'm wrong. Still, it's nice to think that the majority of people are not willing to sacrifice their soul for a few dollars. See, I'm of the opinion that money doesn't justify slaughter. I see that you're American, though, so we clearly have different values.

Any particular reason you're coming out of nowhere making statements like this?

And I suppose you have the same values as Newfies? Just because you think its deplorable to kill cute animals doesn't make the willingness of others to do so wrong. I suppose if one did it out of sadism, that would be wrong, but as necessity or convenience, there's no real reason not to.

Ok, it is clear that you are unfamiliar with even basic psychology. I wouldn't think that it would be necessary to have to cite sources for such a basic principle. That last sentence I said however is pure speculation.
Are you at all familiar with people who will do "righteous" or "altruistic" acts, but broadcast them, so that people will love them for this?

Here is an article which I found which touches a bit on the image maintenance of celebrities.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/artic...01-000031.html

Probably.

It's not the money that's the motivation for this, it's population control. But if you can make some money while doing what needs to be done what's the problem? Would you rather it all just go to waste and let the corpses rot?

The baby seal fur market probably isn't what used to be anyway. Most people frown on that. Just not me.

True, however they are not the cute cuddle little white-coats when they are killed, and Paul and Heather are using the message that they will be killed as white coats. That is the tactic that they are using, cuddling up next to fluffy-big-eyed baby seals, and people will say: 'Awwww.... how can they kill those little things...' when in fact they are grown up and not as cute and cuddly when they are killed.

I am pretty sure that other game are not killed by shooting either, the most attention are brought to seals becasue the are cute when they are babies and used to be killed in the past for their fur. They are no longer killed and the baby seal fur industry is just about dead.

What the McCartneys say about making a tourism industry makes sense, but it wont cull the over-populated species. I support the hunters that are hunting the seals the correct and humane way, I totally disagree with the clubbing. I would not call it a massacre because the seals we kill are used for food, fur, and their oil, the same as we hunt moose for their meat, but wait! No one is protesting the moose hunt because they are not adorable. Newfoundland sells a lot of seal-oil capsules and are often given to open heart surgery patients, my grand-father takes them.

Yes Newfoundland is changing, but the need to control the population and make money has not. The money made from the hunt is quite a lot, enough to feed your family for quite a while.

Hunting doesn't always imply a Ted Nugent imitation. They're killing wild animals for business, and they're not setting traps, therefore they're hunting. How many insects have you killed in your life? Were they humane deaths? I'd call that a massacre. Life is life, regardless of how cute it is.

Seeing McCartney on CNN being such a sanctimonious prick made me want to make this thread. Nice to see someone else did.

A friend of mine made a very, very good post about the seal hunt on another message board. I'll have to quote it later, since he phrased everything much better than I can. For now, I can tell you that the general sentiment here in Newfoundland is "insulted" right about now. It probably says something when the reaction of a province of 500,000 people to a visit from Paul McCartney is pretty much just a collective eye-roll at his "ZOMG TEH CUTE WIDDLE BABY SEALS!!!" crap. Cuteness is a pretty sorry criteria to judge which animals you get indignant about people killing and which you don't.

Just wondering: are those people demonstrating to protect animals or jsut want to show how cute baby seals are?

What about pigs and cows in slaughter houses?

That is exactly what Danny William was accusing them of on Larry King Live, but the McCartneys down-right denied it and kept interrupting him saying 'you are going off topic' when in fact he wasn't.

Yes, I think I do, on account of me actually BEING a Newfie. Born and raised. And like I said, I don't disagree with culling the population. What worries me is the way it happens. Ideally, I'd like to see every sealing vessel accompanied by DFO and independant representatives.

And no, Neko, they will not be killing white coats, and neither Paul nor Heather claimed they would be. It is illegal to kill white coats. It is not illegal to kill them in three weeks time, when they are still babies, but no longer white. The main motivation for waiting three weeks seems to be the desire to deprive people like the McCartneys of a "legitimate" photo op. Also, they will not be fully grown in three weeks time. It takes much longer than that for a seal to mature into an adult. For all intents and purposes, they will still be juvenile, on the cusp of infancy. Just old enough to be grey instead of white.

Like I said before, I support the culling of the seal population, if and when it is done in a proper, humane manner, and if it is necessary (which, at this point in time, it is; it was not always so, however ie: mid-sixties, seventies). I do not believe that it is monitored closely enough. Neko, show me someone out in the woods clubbing a moose to death, and maybe then that arguement will have merit. I appreciate conservation issues; what I don't like is the Newfoundland attitude of "How dare these goddamn celebrities tell us what to do?" As a culture, Newfoundlanders have a tendancy to be a tad defensive and, dare I say, a little STUCK IN THEIR WAYS. Have an open mind, listen to what others have to say, and don't automatically assume that the way we've always done it is the way it should always be done. Should we abolish the hunt? Maybe not. But perhaps it's time to start looking into alternative ways to exploit the seal population for our own gain. At the end of the day that is, after all, what it's all about.

Amanda mentioned that the majority of Newfoundlanders were insulted by the McCartneys. I wasn't, nor were quit a few people I know. We are a minority, however, who are afraid to speak out. If you're a Newfie, you damn well better LOVE seal slaughter, or you're in a hell of a lot of trouble. Danny Williams was, in some respects, mis-representing the people of the province by claiming that he was speaking for everyone. He certainly wasn't speaking for me; I'd love to find an alternative to sealing, if the government was willing to look. No one in Canada is going to touch this issue, because the uproar and outrage from Newfoundland will be immediate and violent. The cod are gone, FPI might as well give in to the final death throes, and half the population of the province has moved to Alberta. Take away sealing, and this place will errupt. I wish, I really, really do, that Newfoundland could get away from its past. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it was great while it lasted, but now it's over. Move on. Why is it so hard for this province to do? Neko? Amanda? Explain please, because I don't get it. Natural resources? So what. Build some infrastructure that doesn't center around fish or molluscs. There are businesses slowly cropping up, but its taking an awfully long time. I know an IT company is no fish plant, but come on. Maybe when the older population retires, those young workers remaining in the province can make something here that doesn't require a boat. Meanwhile, I'll sit in a call centre with my Bachelors degree and wait until its my turn to go to Fort MacMurray.

That's a whole issue all by itself, Jerrica. I'm kinda swamped with work tonight (damn you, honours thesis!), but I'll see if I can throw out a few random points for you.

No, you don't have to love seal killing to be a Newfoundlander. But this issue is so rarely about seals, for either side of the debate. For people like the McCartneys, it's about gettig photo ops with cute animals that are killed out in the wild, which they somehow think deserves their indignation more than the treatment of animals raised in 4x4 pens in slaughterhouses on a steady diet of growth hormones.

For Newfoundlanders, it's about a lot of things. Yes, some people make a healthy chunk of their annual income from it. Yes, there's the tradition aspect of it. Yes, it's taking a long time for alternative industries to crop up here, for whatever reason you want to blame it on. But I think it goes deeper than that. I think a lot of people are just damn fucking TIRED of being demeaned, stepped on, and controlled by mainlanders and outsiders, no matter what the issue.

Think about China for a second. When the communists first took power, Mao Zedong made a speech that contained the line "China has stood up." And that's a big part of the reason they don't like being told what to do by uppity western powers today, even on issues like human rights. It's the same "How DARE those foreigners tell us what to do?!" attitude. After being controlled for centuries by a Manchurian dynasty, then by a dozen different foreign powers who snapped up chunks of their country and treated them like crap for a hundred years, then going through a few decades with a corrupt Guomindong pseudo-government not doing a damn thing as Japan invaded... After all that, they finally get a government who, from their point of view, makes sure China is going to stand up for itself on the world stage.

Now think about Newfoundland. It seems like we have some of that persecution complex going on ourselves, but we haven't ever truly "stood up". Between fish merchants, the French and English tugging us back and forth, then back under British control, then Canada... There seems to be a real sense that mainlanders and foreigners have never done jack fucking squat for us. Is that irrational? Maybe. But it makes a lot of Newfoundlanders fiercely, fiercely resistant to people from away waltzing in and trying to tell us what to do when it comes to something a lot of people see (rightly or wrongly) as a part of our culture. It doesn't help matters when groups like PETA and people like Paul McCartney lie, manipulate, and hypocratise their way into making us look like an entire province of bloodthirsty monsters, and so many people just eat it up without looking at any side of the issue beyond "BABY SEALS ARE CUTE AND NEWFIES ARE MONSTERS FOR KILLING THEM".

As much as I hate to agree with anything ol' Danny says, he did make at least one good point on that CNN debate: no one's going to fight for the rights and futures of poor Newfoundlanders with the same tenacity that they fight to protect a bunch of baby seals. People will throw money at the IFAW and PETA to save a few doe-eyed, no-longer-clubbed whitecoats who make them go "Awwww! How can those horrible Newfies club something that cute?". They don't give a shit about poor kids in an outport whose families will lose a third of their yearly income. They don't give a shit about how hard people have to fight just to be able to make a living here doing ANYTHING. They don't give a shit about all the people who are forced to move away and wander to Alberta looking for work. Bottom line, people care more about holier-than-thou celebrities cuddling seals than about any of the people living in Newfoundland. So is it really surprising that so many people here DO have a "How dare these goddamn celebrities tell us what to do?" attitude about the issue?

Whether that attitude is justified or not is another matter. But personally, I don't find it the least bit surprising that so many people here would think that way.

(Wow, that went on a lot longer and more rambly than I thought it would.)

EDIT: Fixed a typo, added a tiny bit of clarification on a line that was kinda vague.

When the white coats become greys, it means that their fur is ready diving, so these young seals still have a fighting chance by swimming away.

Sure. On CBC and NTV news some years back, a man dragged a moose to death with his truck, also a lot of moose are killed on the highway from transport trucks (I know that they where not hunting, but still, not all moose die in the collision and often bleed to death.)

It is just as Amanda said, alot of people are tiried of being demeaned, stepped on, and controlled by mainlanders and outsiders, especially when they make quick judgement on issues they know nothing about. Notice how some houses have the old Newfoundland flag flying on their patios and flag poles. Some people think things where better before we joined Canada, others do not.

Not true, not all sealers hunt because they love it, they do it to feed their families. I am sure they would love to stop, but they can't afford to because where else are they going to get their money?

Why is it so hard? That is easy! Fishing and hunting skills is much of what the older generation know how to do, they know nothing on business, advanced technology, nor do they have the time and money to do so now. Since I was six years old, I was taught to mend nets, gut fish, drive a boat, and set traps... things that my parents figured that I would need to know for my future, however when the cod stocks dried up, I was still young enough to have a option, so my father sold his fishermen's license...his right to fish... in order to have the money to send my brother and I to school, so that we can learn skills that they don't have the opportunity to have.

I think a lot of these traditional hunts will decrease dramatically because once the older generation dies of, there will only be us left, and we will most likely come up with a new industry for the province, something different from fishing and hunting... what it will be, who knows, but I do know that for the current generation of former fisher people, hunting and fishing is all they have.

Ok, I'll respond to Neko's now, Amanda's tomorrow, as I want to go to sleep and answering Amanda is more complicated and requires more thought.

Their fur may be ready, Neko, but they are not. At the age they are killed, most seals will not have entered the water for the first time. They are hardly in a position to make a swim for it.

Somone dragged a moose to death, eh? And I bet everyone interviewed for that NTV segment said pretty much the same thing. "Well, you know, it's not pretty, and it's not nice, but it IS necessary. Dragging a moose to death is our right as Newfoundlanders." I'm willing to bet good money this was not the case. I'm willing to bet, actually, that the entire province was sickened by it, as were the SPCA, Humane Society, etc. Why? Because it's a sickening thing to do. We are at the top of the food chain, yes. That gives us dominance, but it also gives us responsibility. We are, if you'll pardon my Franciscan zeal, stewards of the earth. We choose the time of life and the time of death; in between, we have a duty (zomg Wee Free Men. Terry Pratchett being relevant). Also, many moose are indeed killed by cars. Not purposely, though. These moose tragedies also result in human tragedies. Therefore moose= direct harm to human beings, which means moose hunt every year. I can't remember the last time I heard of someone being killed in a seal-automobile collision. Your arguement Neko is, again, missing a critical factor: relevance. Several hundred men clubbing baby seals on a yearly basis for 500 years ON PURPOSE is not equal to accidental collisions, or one nut job tying a bull to his bumper.

I never suggested sealers hunt because they love it. Not many people with a soul could love it (here I go with religiosity again. Maybe the term I was looking for was "morals). You took me too literally. I meant that, as a Newfie, if you're anti-seal hunt, then you're seen as pro-mainland. This is not always the case. Because of fear, people like me, who hate the hunt, sit down and shut up. (As a side note, the majority of the people flying the pink, white and green weren't even alive before NL joined Canada. It's easy to bitch about how downtrodden you are, I suppose, in a country like Canada. If we were our own island nation we'd be dirt poor and still a colony right now. Or, possibly, a part of the US, a fate much worse than moritorium. Let's not go getting all Quebec here, please).

The vast majority of sealers are off-season fisherman. You know how much a crab fisherman can make in the span of three weeks? $50,000 even in a bad season. Most fisherman in Newfoundland fish several species a year. If one stint of three weeks provides assets equivalent to a yearly middle-class income, explain how a seal quota is necessary? It isn't always. People have to accept that. In some cases, it's simply done out of greed. Yeah, I really need that new 4x4.

I'm glad you think analysing NLs economic problems is so simple. What you fail to take into account is the goverment assistance offered to fisherman and plant workers after the fall of the cod stocks. "Here's some money, Skipper Joe; go learn a trade." 'NO.' So, you see, it's not that people can't learn; it's that they won't. And maybe they have a right to be pissed off. Maybe they have a right not to try something new, after fishing all their lives. I know I'd be pissed if it was me. But there's a point where you have to say to yourself "Do I want to live like this for the rest of my life?" Starting over is a daunting task, but Newfie's are reknowned for their tenacity. At least, they were until 1992. Where did that go?

You bet wrong then. Actually the guy was charged, the same as any hunter will be caught clubbing.

That happened too... I don't think anyone was killed though, but a few years back there was a accident on the TCH because someone tried to avoid a large lump on the road, apparently it was a seal who actually swam into a fresh water to look for food, and it got lost.

Well I am not glad, it hurts me to see things playing out this way, but in reality not many fishermen are able to afford to learn a new trade or get a high-paying job, because a lot of the money that the government gave out where used by the fisher people to send their own kids to school, and of course things they need to keep paying off like their home, car payments, insurances, etc. I agree that the money where used by some to get a trade... it could have been 50/50, who knows... what I do know is that there is a population of people like I am describing, who used the government money to give their kids a chance that they did not have and need to use the skills that they currently have are most likely the ones who are in the seal hunt.

No, really. Are you serious? -_-

Yes, I imagine the man who DRAGGED AN ANIMAL BEHIND HIS CAR UNTIL IT DIED was probably charged. Did you miss the huge amounts of sarcasm in my initial comments? Did you miss this?

"I'm willing to bet good money this was not the case. I'm willing to bet, actually, that the entire province was sickened by it, as were the SPCA, Humane Society, etc. Why? Because it's a sickening thing to do. We are at the top of the food chain, yes. That gives us dominance, but it also gives us responsibility."

Either you aren't reading what I'm actually saying, or your father should have used his fishing license money for his own education, as yours was clearly a lost cause. Clubbing happens in the seal hunt. Video has been taken of this happening. It was standard practice until very recently. Your claim that clubbers will be charged is patently false because, a) there are no real authorties on the ice to catch them doing it, and b) even if there were, clubbing is not illegal. Is it any less disgusting than dragging a moose to death? No. The man who killed the moose was charged, however. The sealers will not be.

One seal crawling into a road in St. Mary's isn't the same thing as the dozens of annual moose-automobile collisions that happen in Newfoundland every year. One seal accident in 60 years does not equal thousands of moose accidents.

I am refering to an entirely different program which offers money SPECIFICALLY and ONLY for the education of former fishery workers. Not their families. Not their cousin Billy. It does not give them money, it gives them tuition. If they choose not to take advantage of the program, they get neither money nor tuition. Clearly, money they DID NOT GET is not being used for house payments or their children's education. It comes in the form of tuition vouchers which go to the school, be it CONA, MUN, whatever. It is not cash. You are referring to TAGS and the license buy-back programs that started in '92 and continued until a few years ago. Find me some statistics on the seal hunt, please. Prove to me that these people who used imaginary money on car payments are killing seals. Otherwise, stop making such vague and unsupported statements. Also, read what you're replying to BEFORE you reply.

Finally, I'd like you to comment on this, because I would really like to hear what you have to say:

"The vast majority of sealers are off-season fisherman. You know how much a crab fisherman can make in the span of three weeks? $50,000 even in a bad season. Most fisherman in Newfoundland fish several species a year. If one stint of three weeks provides assets equivalent to a yearly middle-class income, explain how a seal quota is necessary?"

Looks like you missed my sarcasm in my comments too. Gotcha :p

Well Duh, Anyone with sense would agree to that, just as I disagree with clubbing. I was making a point that not all the prey that we hunt are killed humanely, what ever the species, not just seals, so should there be just as much attention drawn to the other species that we hunt besides just seals?

I think you are missing my point here. I KNOW that clubbing happens in seal hunts, not nearly as many in the past, but cruel deaths happen to other animals too, not just seals, but no one brings that much attention to those, just the cute seals.


I was simply proving that it CAN happen.

May as well comment so that you can be happy. The numbers of crab are dropping, and O'l Danny cut the quota, and so the protest of crab fishermen was born. Besides, if the crab fishery continues at it's current rate, the stock will slowly dry up like we did with the cod, the reason what the recover will be so difficult will be to the foreign over-fishing off the grand banks. The quota of about 319,500 seals is reasonable, with five-million of them out there, they will have no problems recovering until the next season.

I still think what the McCartneys say about making a tourism industry makes sense, but we can't just have people out on the ice flows, it's dangerous and the seals can be to, they are predators. Besides, I think that all the attention that the seal hunt is getting by animal rights activists to be a little suspicious anyway... they raise a lot of money in donations by showing baby seals being clubbed in a time that it is no longer done, and they don't listen to the science that a seal still moves while it is being skinned because of the swimming reflex that is active... even after death.

With all the money these activists have made off promoting misinformation about the seal hunt, they should direct their attention to hunts that really matter. Commercial whale hunting has been banned for a while, and the whale population is in danger, yet the Japanese still hunt these animals. It's like the only animals that matter are the cute cuddle animals matter more than the endangered and majestic ones.

Anyway... just in case some of you people are board with Jerrica and I commenting on each other, here is a site that should clear things up with the actual hunt. Seal Hunt: Myths and Facts

Whalers are harassed all the time, as are many, many other hunters etc. These don't affect you as they occur elsewhere. The issue in your area is that of the seal hunt, and so, you'll be harassed about it.

Plus the argument that other animals are 'cruely killed' is hardly a great defence for the pro-sealing argument. If others do a thing, but it's something that you feel is cruel, does that somehow make it alright? I'd like to think one's personal views on the issue vis a vis cruelty or whatever other metric matters to you would be more important than 'Well sally's mom lets her stay up until eight.' or it's seal clubbing equivalent.

Not that I really have a stance on the issue one way or the other, just that the last argument on the matter seemed a little off.

The clubbing and cruel deaths is the argument that the McCartneys are using, I am saying that other animals that we hunt can also die cruel deaths, since this is the case, shouldn't the McCartneys be making a stance against those too? Not just the over-populated species that happen to be cute?

The Canadian seal cull is barbaric. I'm sorry but nothing you can say will convince me otherwise. I did a presentation last summer on Canadian laws (lack thereof more appropriatly) and animal rights. I did my research. I showed recent video footage of seals being clubbed, inlcuding the white coated seals, then left to die on the ice. It's digusting. My presentation also inlcuding the trapping of animals, animals used in bloodsports, animals raised for consumption, animals used in laboratory testing and animals (cats & dogs) raised to be sold - can't seem to remember the term this is given. There's no such thing as any Canadian law to protect these animals from this obvious torture. And the clubbing of white coated seals is only a regulation not a law. I don't recall anyone facing sanctions for killing baby seals. And lets cut the bullshit. Baby seals are killed in the cull...

Clearly you did not read the artical I posted.

The Seal Hunt: Myths and Facts

Linking to a Canadian government website for the facts on seal culling is like telling me to read the Bush administration's official report on Sept 11. I think I prefer to get my information from a more trust worthy source.

But just to go along with the Myths/Facts game.
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/sp...s%20facts.html

Like I said though you cannot change my mind. The seal cull whether done using clubs, picks, rifles, grenades, or appache gunships strickly to fuel the fur trading industry is cruel and unnecessary.

Uhh okay. How much bacteria do you think you've killed in your life? Bacteria is a living organism too!

Where do you draw the line in the animal "right to life" movement?

There are two things that make humans unique. We possess rationality and the ability to feel pleasure and pain. Animals while not rational can also experience pleasure and pain. A single cell organism possess neither. Drawing the line is easy. although bacteria are a living organism they are not included.

As humans our rights do and should supercede those of other animals but I also feel that slaughtering 1 million seals is cleary over stepping our boundaries. It's time Canadian law recognises this and introduce laws to protect wildlife from cruelty and torture.

You said there were two things that make humans unique. You've named one: rationality. You bundled it with the ability to feel pleasure and pain, but then said that animals can also feel pleasure and pain.

So what's the second thing?

Sorry should have been clearer those were the two things. Rationality being the first, our ability to feel pleasure and pain being the second.

Which then contradicts your earlier statement that animals can feel pleasure and pain, as well as humans.

Aren't there already laws in place to protect animals from cruelty and torture? Your link implied as much. If there's 1 million seals being slaughtered every hunt year, and only about 660 cases of documented cruelty isn't that a pretty decent ratio of the humane killing of the seals? Yes, it's not just limited to those 660 cases, but I sincerely doubt that all the hunters that go out to hunt seals merely do it to torture them. And it's not just for the fur either.

Humans and animals can both feel pleasure and pain but animals are not rational agents. An animal can't stop and think about the cosmos and nature in the way you can. This ability to think is what makes humans superior to other animals. But the fact is animals can feel pleasure and pain which means they do have a certain amount of cognitive capacity more so than an amoeba does. Because a seal can feel pleasure and pain I would conclude by saying that smashing it in the face with a club is a rather unethical practice.

And that, then, leaves us with the other of those two things you said there were that make humans unique. If the ability to feel pain and pleasure isn't unique to humans, what is that second thing?

Jackyboy,

So Canada is a lawless country? Sounds a might extreme. Any links to back that up would be great. First time I've heard of it in that kind of light, and would very much like to know the other areas wherein Canadian law is lacking.

"They observed sealers at work from the air and from the ground, and performed post-mortems on 73 seal carcasses. Their study concluded that up to 42% of the seals they examined were likely skinned alive." This is from the link you posted earlier. So, of the million seals killed in a season, a study of 73 bodies leads to the conclusion that 42% were skinned alive? How can a sample of 73 carcasses which were chosen based on the appearance of illegal sealing practices possibly be representative of the entire hunt?

If I look at 6 inmates on death row, and 3 of them have commited murder. Does that mean that 50% of the population has commited murder?

The size of a sample, and the way in which it was chosen makes a world of difference.

Also, I'm still waiting on that second difference between humans and other animals. Reason, and?...

Oh I see where this is going now. It's just a polemic spin on my sentencing. I assumed that any possible ambiguity would have been resolved by the thoughts proceeding "humans are unique..."

To make a quick edit on my earlier argument here to keep everyone happy I'll change it to:

Humans are unique to other animals because we are rational agents whereas animals do not possess rationality although both humans and animals are capable of feeling pleasure and pain.


Watts, the Canadian Criminal Code first introduce animal cruelty in 1892 which has barely been revised since then. Although there might be an extreme case where an individual may be held criminally responsible for animal cruelty for the most part there simply aren't any laws that protect animals from cruelty and torture. Under Canadian law, animals are still treated merely as property and not as an individual. Many people, including myself think it's time for this to change.

And PLUG, I haven't said Canada lives in a state of nature or a lawless society. What I would say is that Canada needs to update its law concerning the ethical treatment of animals to help keep consistent with the view that Canada is -mostly and supposedly- a peace loving nation.

Legally speaking, "an individual" is usually taken to mean a person. Are you suggesting that animals should be treated as people?

Secondly, the Canadian Criminal Code aren't the only laws in Canada. What does provincial law say on the matter?

Site from a state with responsible government and high amounts of accountability, or an unprofessional-looking site without any outside sources. To be honest, that's just offensive towards Canada.

By the way,the 9/11 commission was not a product of Bush's amdinistartion, it is a bipartisan matter.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My point was trying to illustrate that the percentages of known (inmates) or suspected (those observed using questionable hunting/skinning methods) is not a great way to extrapolate for the rest of the population.

What I was trying to say is that death row inmates are murderers yes. But you'd have to be a fool to believe that those numbers can apply to the *rest* of the population. Same thing sounds to have happened with the seal hunting story.

As for provincial law regarding animal rights, this was the first link that appeared as though it might be relevent. http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/S...sh/90o36_e.htm

So yeah, I doubt any province or territory really allows animals to be treated poorly on an owner's whim. And where is it again that animals are *not* considered property?

Looks like you beat me to it :)
I looked at the link that JackyBoy posted, not only does the site look like it was made by a web-design student, but if you read the disclaimer at the bottom, you can see that the false facts where put together by a group of activists that cannot see the truth any better than the McCartneys .

For your first question, I'll try to give the best answer I can that won't lead this to the ridiculous. Animals should be treated as people in same way as people are treated with dignity. The point is to remove the idea that animals are seen legally as property to be used and exploited by any means for human gain. Laws should protect wildlife from this. Also laws should be in place which can hold people criminally responsible for animal cruelty.

To answer your second question, from what I understand Provincial legislation would have nothing to say on the matter as animal cruelty falls under Federal legislation.

http://www.cfhs.ca/news/canadian_law/
This is a fairly extensive collection of news articles regarding Canada's recent history on the issue of animal cruelty put forth in Parliament. It looks as though not much progress has been made since I did my presentation on animals rights/cruelty.

It's interesting and no surprise that certain groups of people want to be exempt from any animal cruelty laws that may eventually get passed.

http://www.stopthesealhunt.ca/site/p...PFIqE&b=437937
Here's several recent short films shot by IFAW which document the seal hunt during 2004 and 2005. Footage from this year I think it says will be added soon. It's impossible for me to understand how anyone can support seal culling.

Dear Lord. Crap like this is exactly why I have no respect for groups like PETA and the IFAW. Sappy music? Check. Making sealers out to be monsters? Check. Shots of frolicking whitecoats? Check. Little argument presented beyond "SEALS ARE CUTE SO HAY DON'T KILL THEM!!!1"? Check. Incidentally, it kills me that one of the video diaries has the protesters freaking out because sealers are "attacking" them. (Guys? You're wandering around in a dangerous environment doing everything you can to get in the way, harrass the sealers, and make them look like monsters. What do you expect, a fucking welcome wagon?)

So there's video footage. So what? Give me time and I can probably track down some footage of what goes on inside a slaughterhouse or fur farm. Yet somehow, animals spending their entire lives in a giant factory-farm assembly line to be caged, mutilated, fed grotesque amounts of growth hormones, and killed en masse behind closed doors... That gets played up as less horrific than wild animals killed in the open, mainly because some sanctimonious animal rights group or another can film it and single it out for shame among their target audience. Which seems to consist mainly of people who will scream about all the animal cruelty that us evil bloodthirsty Canadians are apparently perpetrating without thinking twice about where their hamburger comes from, let alone bothering to look at any other part of the sealing issue beyond "seals = cute". Blood on the ice once a year sells a cause better than blood on a slaughterhouse floor 24/7, I guess.

To paraphrase someone else: whack-a-seal for a few weeks once a year seems a far cry better than seals spending their whole lives caged, hormoned up, and miserable in factory farms.

Arg. I could ramble, but my friend summed it up better than I can anyway. *cuts and pastes from here*

As always Amanda, you are my hero!

Amanda, to be fair to these organizations, the people who support animal rights and those opposed to seal culling their claim is pretty simple. Slaughtering 1 million seals is unethical and cruel. It's a form of genocide in my opinion. Images of cute baby seals are used because they are powerful and persuasive. Plus it just makes sense. You don't run a campaign for seals and then show images of giraffes.

You show people a picture of a cute baby seal "frolicking" and the next slide shows carcasses and blood smeared across the ice you tend to get more of a response. The reaction from most people is going to be something like, how can they (Canada) allow this? This important question is what get people talking and ultimately what starts these huge ethical debates. Without these debates society would never change and laws would never be revised. Hopefully everyone can at least agree that this would be a bad thing.


I assure you I have very strong opinions and views in regards to the unethical treatment of animals raised for consumption. I think it's hideous that cattle farmers are allowed under Federal regulations to keep a cow shackled in cage and fed bio-engineered food up to the day of slaughter. It's also disgusting how Australia's poultry industry can house like 400,000 chickens inside a single shed under nightmarish conditions. The puppy mills in Quebec, across the country -trappers, fur farms, animal testing- all of it is highly unethical and all perfectly legal under Canadian law. Canada and Canadians need to wake up from their slumber. This cruel treatment and torture of animals needs to stop and people need to be held accountable for it.

The problem with the approach you're using is that it's unfair to undermine the argument against seal hunting by introducing a separate issue you deem more important. I am fully aware of the kangaroo cull your friend mentioned. 1 million seals killed over 3 years seems pretty small compared to the 7 million kangaroos killed each year in Australia. This however does not make seal culling suddenly acceptable. The "it-can-be-worse-program" has no place in ethical debates. Plus it's non-sensical to talk about the treatment of cows when we're arguing against the treatment of seals. You cannot assume these activist are ignoring such issues while only raising stink about the seals. Even so, there are plenty of other people who do campaign against the treatment of cattle raised for consumption. And you as a consumer can voice yourself by purchasing meat with that free range stamp.

Also people stop being so damn passive in your use of argumentation. This is not an argument or a claim. This is rhetoric. It's empty. There's nothing for me to respond to. Using this kind of speech in attempt to weaken my position is completely unproductive. If you think I am wrong saying Canada needs to implement laws to protect animals from cruelty then at least make a claim I'm able to respond to.

The only decent arguments I have seen so far in support of seal culling is over population and that it happens to provide an income in a part of Canada where the opportunity of education is low and unemployment is high.

These arguments however are not are not compelling justifications. If the culling of a large populated species of animals becomes an acceptable maxim then this suggests humans should also be included because 6 million seals is incomparable to the 6 billion humans that occupy the globe. You provided information that suggests fish stocks have not been able to recover over some 15 years and that seals are seen as the culprit. I would argue that human interference such as pollution and over fishing has taken its toll on fish stocks. Perhaps Canadian waters are no longer providing a suitable environment for fish to reproduce. There are likely several factors to explain low fish stocks (seals may be one of those factors) but I think it's wrong to target seals because that happens to be the easiest, cheapest and conveniently most profitable short term solution.

The second argument basically comes down to whether or not it's right to exploit animals for human gain and profit. In my opinion it's not. It's the case that the people of NF need money to survive but at the cost of 1 million seals? It's wrong. Disney has exploited children all over the world to help it become such a huge successful business. It's wrong.

Yeah, maybe if you're an idiot with a five second attention span.

It's called "livelihood." You should look into it sometime.

It also has an awesome side-effect. It shows that you're willing to completely disregard points that would otherwise actually have to make you think about your position, or Hell!, even admit that you might be wrong.

So, you think it's OK to essentially shit all over the livelihoods of people who seriously need whatever they can to survive?

Way to look like a jackass.

I find this entire argument fucking hilarious, because you have people who honestly don't give a rat's ass about the seals thinking they can argue against the seal hunters. I mean, do you honestly think that the McCartney's really care about the seals? It's a media stunt. They're bored. They have money to throw around.

They're doing it just to be noticed.

And the non-famous people? Most of them just blindly follow whatever the PETA et al say without any questioning of any potential problems they create by their actions. And the rest that aren't minions of PETA and such? They were lured in by their short attention spans and flashing images of CUTE BABY SEALS THAT ARE(not)HORRIBLY HUNTED.

Basically, this is a non-issue. It's nothing that really needs this kind of attention. Everything was going fine until some rich, pompous assholes decided to shit all over them.

Political debates turn into one side screaming at the other with their ears plugged quickly enough. No need to encourage the practice.

So the solution should not be easy, cheap, or profitable? What alternatives do you suggest?

Also keep in mind that the "human overfishing" you're talking about isn't actually done by Newfoundlanders. It's done by Europeans, thxsomuch.

(Sorry for my absence from the debate; I got sick, but mostly I got bored).