Nootropics: smart drugs
 

What is your take on drugs that enhance mental capacity? Ritalin, vinpocetine, etc. Should they be legal? Is it fair that some college/university students take them for better grades?

These drugs don't enhance mental capacity. They induce tunnel-vision. Anything can be abused. Nothing can be completely removed from the market. If pharmaceutical companies aren't able to push these drugs, then they'll turn up on the street in more dangerous forms (which they have). So...keep it business, regulated and taxed. It's better for everyone involved.

They're just stimulants. It's actually the same logic behind having a cup of coffee in the morning stimulate the firing of neurons in the brain. Stimulants like ritalin are amphetamine salts. Stimulants are also used against narcolepsy and as nasal decongestants. If a student has a legitimate attention disorder, then I don't see the problem with those who need these drugs having them.


While I think they're overused, there are people who have legitimate attention disorders that require these drugs. They have been proven to work. The FDA isn't just going to keep something on the market for the sake of safety, it's because they're clinically proven.

I mean, if you want to go the route you seem to be taking, technically cocaine is a schedule II drug in this country, but that's because it has medical use as a pain reliever. I mean, if it's only controlled by the FDA to keep it off the streets, the FDA is doing a golden job of that, dont you think? A few years ago the FDA regulated that Pseudoephedrine (Sudafed) had to be kept behind pharmacy shelves to get it out of the hands of those using it to make methamphetaine. But hey, meth labs are a thing of the past, right? Regulate it or not, drug abusers are wicked fucking crafty when it comes to getting their fix. They WILL get it.

Yes.
Functionality isn't the question. We are assuming that it works. Legality and fairness seems to be the main idea. Also, there seems to be a lot you don't concern yourself with regarding pharmaceutical companies and government. Moving on...why would they put it on the market? It works. Why wouldn't they remove it? It banks for them. If a drug regulates blood pressure but causes liver disease, they'll still sell it. Just with a disclaimer. How badly do you need it? I'm sure they have something for liver disease that increases the risk of colon cancer in return. They may even have an answer for that.
Nothing is ever a thing of the past. Nothing can be completely removed from the market. That includes meth labs. There are always substitutes in place for ingredients. One can also shop in Mexico or other less discerning countries. Cocaine crosses international borders in the process of reaching our streets and suburbs. Very crafty indeed. Not the point.

Then please make your point because it's right now you're not making one and sounding dumb as fucking bricks in the process.

All drugs are chemicals. Chemicals have a consequence to taking them. These are side effects. This is why we have a pharmacy system in place in this country. If the side effects are minor enough not to be a concern, then they're sold over-the-counter. If the side effect is of a reasonable concern, they make it by prescription only such to make it so that doctors and pharmacists, and not individuals, are making the decision on whether or not this drug is the right medication for them.

If a medication is to be sold in this country, it is put through a rigorous 5 phase FDA approval process. Do you know how many drugs never even see a pharmacy shelf? Probably about 99% of compounds that are initially tested as a possible medication. Do you know why? Because of side effect or adverse reaction issues.

Celebrex and Vioxx were flagged by the FDA because of these problems. Vioxx moreso than Celebrex, and therefore has been withdrawn. Celebrex now has massive warnings associated with it's use. Merck voluntarily withdrew Vioxx because of the risks associated with long-term use, something they couldn't pick up in clinical trials. It was making them bank, sure, but do you honestly think a drug company is gonna keep things on the market to make a buck over consumer lives? If Pfizer did that, the largest drug company in the world would be nothing now. I'm not suggesting that pharmaceutical companies are of the highest moral character, as they've been known to do some economically shady things, but killing patients for the sake of a buck is not one of 'em.

Actually, this is sadly correct. Drugs being sold on the counter are the ones that work and give desirable effects, as what they are designed to be. But that doesn't necessarily means any drugs which work will be on the counter forever. That's what FDA is for; to test the margin of safety of drugs to make sure drugs out there are capable of dealing with health problems while still be safe to use.

More and more drugs are produced nowadays. The aim of these is to produce more potent drugs with wider margin of safety. Of course these drugs are tested first on experiment objects. If too many severe side effects are observed, the drug may cease to be developed.

Then, after the drugs approved enter the market, continuous observation is still conducted, mainly on observing what adverse effects may come out---especially the ones unobserved in laboratorium or severe ones. This is the main base for drug distribution in society by FDA; they can ban drugs already circulating if they produce too many or too serious adverse effects. Or they can make a useful drug with lots of side effect to be acquired only under prescription. But once again, there are certain degree of safety margin, and just because a drug has several side effects does not equal its halt in the market.

Thus, the role of doctors to decide what drugs should be prescribed to the patient is important. So is reading the labels of drugs before using it.

Now regarding this drug problem. Drugs, judged from their side effect and indication, are separated into several classes (I forgot, unfortunately). These classifications are useful for controlling the distribution of several drugs considered potential to be abused. However, all kind of drugs can be abused, including the usual (almost) harmless medicine such as aspirin or paracetamol.

So what is the definition of drug abuse? Drug abuse is when someone uses any drug for a long time without indication for using it.. So, if a student uses a stimulant once in a while (for example, studying before a test) with an appropriate indication (or because they really need it badly), it is not illegal. But if s/he use it regularly without the indication, then it's drug abuse.

But once again, the law doesn't control every drug usage, so abuse of any medicine beside the prohibited ones are kind of obscure.

There was a long article in some magazine I wish I could remember about mental enhancement drug use. It said basically more and more people in my generation, ie. 20's are taking them to stay focused and be more productive at work.

From what I recall the short term side effects were negligible and I don't think were even addictive. The concern most people had was for the unknown long-term side effects and whether it could impact neurological development in children when taken too young.

Personally I'll admit I've been tempted. If you can artificially attain the sort of focus and drive that makes you stand out in the work place, I mean, that'd be pretty sweet. I'm just imagining all the shit I could get done. But my brain is precious to me, and I worry what I might do to it long term.

Also I cringe a little at the necessary perjury in order to acquire these drugs now. =/

I see what you are trying to say, but I don't think your argument is very good. Just because FDA trials are extensive it doesn't mean they are fail-proof. And pharmaceutical companies are COMPANIES first and foremost. Maybe they don't kill people, but that's because they can't get away with it. Look at insurance companies: they can kill people and get away with it, and they damn well do it all the time.

I see what you mean that those substances are just like coffee, but there is a distinction, at least in America. You know, it is one thing for baseball players to work-out a lot, have perfect nutrition, and eat spinach. That has been around for ages. But nearly everyone finds steroids suspect. Isn't it kinda the same thing? We all drink coffee, but only a few of us use unperscribed ritalin. Maybe there is no REAL difference, but there is a perceived one.

And I don't make good arguments he says.

I think people forgot about a small thing called public perception. Merck almost got reamed because of Vioxx. Obviously if you kill patients people will stop using your products out of fear. So what purpose would it serve Merck to keep Vioxx on the market and have their consumers die off? Don't you think they'd rather have them live and be using the drug long term? Makes a whole shitload more sense than your argument does.

Look, if it turned a profit and they didn't get caught for it, I am sure drug companies would do anything. You can believe in their morals as much as you want. All I am saying is that 1) the FDA is not fail-proof, 2) big-pharma is suspect.

I often hear America is super-overmedicated. And don't you think big-pharma lobbies doctors to put their patients in all-sorts of pills? How morally suspect is that? Very, but also very profitable.

Either way, there was more stuff in my post directly responding to you.

Not all the time. Vioxx caused 88-130k heart attacks before it was pulled from the market, and evidence suggests Merck knew it was dangerous and kept it in the market for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vioxx mentions several studies which showed Vioxx caused heart attacks, all of which were edited or manipulated by merck to keep the drug in the market.

I am 100% in favor of smart-drugs.

That way, people will be able to stay focused and on-topic, even over the course of nearly a baker's dozen separate responses!

From same Wikipedia article...

In other words, there was a legitimate explanation for the difference. Fact was that naproxen has a blood thinning effect. What Merck didn't do and was foolish for not doing was long term studies. Vioxx ended up having a prothrombotic effect in patients who took the drug over two months.

I'm not disputing that Merck may have been negligent in not doing the proper studies to further look into the findings, but to suggest that they would KILL THEIR PATIENTS TO MAKE A BUCK, which is what you're suggesting, is asinine. Again Merck gains more by having living patients taking a safe and efficacious drug for a long time rather than having their patients die, and not need medication anymore.

And before you ask, yes, I HAVE read some of the studies. I had to actually do a drug review on Celebrex and Vioxx last year for school. I'm a pharmacy student, and not an idiot when it comes to this stuff.

Well then shit, I guess you have this figured out then. Why did you even start the fucking thread?

What are forums for? I want to see what other people think.

I understand that you have the greater understanding of the subject. All I am holding is that drug companies are primarily that - companies. I don't doubt they will go to any length to make a profit. From what I heard, some Merck execs KNEW that there were serious risks involved with the drug but decided to keep it going to at least cover the costs of research. Maybe I am wrong. If so, I apologize.

Either way, I asked you on my original post:

I see what you mean that those substances are just like coffee, but there is a distinction, at least in America. You know, it is one thing for baseball players to work-out a lot, have perfect nutrition, and eat spinach. That has been around for ages. But nearly everyone finds steroids suspect. Isn't it kinda the same thing? We all drink coffee, but only a few of us use unperscribed ritalin. Maybe there is no REAL difference, but there is a perceived one.

If you don't want to respond to that, fine. But it is the kind of thing I made this thread to talk about.

No, no. You ARE wrong.

They don't have to kill them to make profits in morally suspect ways. The elderly in MA are extremely overmedicated, to the point that it is not beneficial and can actually harm them. You don't think any of that has to do with drug companies courting doctors? Yet the public isn't clamoring against big pharma.

I thought Vioxx was a good case of this, but according to SuperNova it is not. From what I understand, Merck allowed the drug to go into sale knowing that it was dangerous and it ended up killing 80-130 thousand people. They made the money from those sales.

You are right, obviously, drug companies make more money from keeping people on their meds. That only proves what I was saying, though, that they can't be trusted; they have an incentive to keep you on their drugs, whether or not you need it: it is what makes them money, and it is their primary concern as a company.

Since obviously you're just making no sense at this point, I'm just gonna do what I've really wanted to do all thread long.

POLO!

SuperNova obviously thinks he is the 'end all, be all' of thread dwellers. I don't have a problem with that, as long as he doesn't have a problem with us knowing better. Then when he loses wind, he resorts to spam. You don't have to commandeer threads, dick. But I sound 'dumb as fucking bricks.' I'm very familiar with the underbelly of the drug world, personally, and my girlfriend has a PhD in Biology if I were ever to need a fallback. Her research is enlightening. I'm not sure what makes SuperNova a credible source of information or one to insult people. We all possess conviction. Your's isn't superior to mine.

Gift of Game obviously thinks he is the 'be all, end all' of thread posters. I don't have a problem with that, as long as he doesn't have a problem with us not giving a shit. Then when he runs out of complaints, he resorts to shifting gears with all the subtlety of a Mack truck. You don't have to shit on threads, dick. But I sound 'like I don't give a shit.' I'm very familiar with the underbelly of GFF, personally, and my dad has a Master's in Economics if I were ever to need a mostly unrelated degree to make myself sound smarter. His work has nothing to do with this thread. I'm not sure what makes Gift of Game think his post did anything to contribute to the thread aside from vague threats of "nyah nyah I know people/things but I'm not telling" or one to limply insult people. We all possess grammar. YOURS isn't superior to mine.

You contribute nothing to the discussion. Stop telling jokes.

I AM SO HURT AND WOUNDED BY YOUR BITING AND INTELLECTUAL RETORT, I WILL GO AND CRY NOW

Can we stop hazing the newbie just because SuperNova picked a pointless fight with him? SuperNova picks pointless fights with everybody. It's kind of his thing.

Can we stop doing our best to drive out everybody new? Honestly now.

So let me get this straight. SuperNova comes back after years of being a grown up and he picks back up at the same bullshit he was perpetratin like, shit, fuckin, ages ago or whatever?

Ben Affleck plays the same character he's been in for just about every movie. Every time Ben Affleck is in a movie he plays the same guy. That guy he plays is Ben Affleck in Dazed and Confused.

Ben Affleck plays himself, Ben Affleck, an asshole.

Aw, I was just having a little fun with him! Those wings I pulled off will grow back, right?

Seriously now if my posting is considered hazing then either the Internet has suddenly become even more weeping vagina than normal or you're implying that I am effectively trolling, one or more (probably both) of these statements are incorrect

http://www.celebrity-sunglasses-find..._daredevil.jpg

I'm looking forward to his portrayal of Cyclops in the upcoming Origins film.

Mo0

I am ashamed of you

Your behavior is shameful

Go sit in the corner

Face the wall

http://www.thesunblog.com/frosting/ben_affleck.jpg

Ben and his bitch. Shit was so cash.

I wanna get afflected.

^^ No, alurkercrying.gif stays.

But I didn't mean any harm

Please don't make me

Please

http://www.fitsnews.com/wp-content/u.../dunce-cap.jpg

Working on a Pharm.D. I would say that makes me somewhat credible. Hey, I may not be knowledgeable on much, but drugs are one thing I feel like I can speak with authority on.

Pfft, I've been doing that for ages on these boards. I just returned back and well, old habits die hard.

So you got a record is what you're saying.

Uh... okay.

Hello to you too Pang! Long time no see! If you had actually read the thread instead of just bust in here all "OMG SUPERNOVA IN AN ARGUMENT MUST BE HIS FAULT *CRAPS PANTS*" you'd see that the kid was being a douche and not getting the point. And believe me, seems like you can drive people away as well as anyone.

I've decided that the only way to salvage this thread and settle this argument for good is for Mo0 to post pictures of himself shirtless.

The shock will either kill everybody involved or knock all offending parties out of commision. Who's with me?

You know, I typed up a fairly elaborate response to your spastic little response to me here, in which I spent some time in comparing you to a kind of angry chihuahua biting random children as they passed by.

However, the more I see of Game's posts the more I realize that he's either a troll or extremely confused, so I retract my request that everyone stop harassing him.

Bitch, if I could drive people away then you wouldn't be here

Propped for the advance warning. I will now kill myself. I didn't leave an e-will, so you guys can fight over my internet effects.

Her e-stereo is mine, dibs have been called

Also all of her sprites

finally your avatar's brutal reign of terror is at an end

Don't worry Mo0, your trolling has never been effective.

I wasn't planning on trolling but I learned quickly that posting actual information gets you attacked by people who don't know shit and have nothing to say. If, in real life, I were insulted using the same words SuperNova used, I would bury my knuckles deep in his skull. I realize that many of you scatter like roaches at the sight of sunlight and human beings. You're only worth the shit that flies out of your mouth when no one is around to correct you, then you feed on it. It's hopeless. So if you can troll, I can troll.

I did offer the possibility that you were just very confused.

The actual diagnosis turns out to be Internet Tough Guy, much to my despair.

"If this wasn't the internet and that guy said that shit to my FACE, I'd totally kick his ass"

ahaha

jesus

wow

You have a problem with people who don't like your whiny, fag villages. That's too bad.:gonk:

Additional Spam:
Do Sass and Pang still fuck? That's a long time for the same old boring, flabby pussy.

What's keeping you around in that case, GoG?

Ahaha I KNEW he's been around before. AWESOME job.

Entertainment value, at this point. Just like you.

Yes. I am here to watch you make a fool of yourself.

(So. If you remember Pang and I being together, you must be from way back.)

I AM SUFFUSED WITH NOSTALGIA

JAGO, is that you.

Since we're here for the same reasons, let's get on with it.

I doubt it, Jago could never go that long before telling us all who he was. It'll turn out to be some no-mark nobody can remember.

"AHA, YOU FOOLS, 'TIS I, SUPERSAYANJIM90210 BACK TO LAUGH AT YOU ALL FOR BEING INTERNET LOSERS, BWAHAHAHAHAHA"

"Er, who?"

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/2...kles_large.jpg

HEY! What did he ever do to you anyways?!

This.

YouTube Video

GIVE UP THE EMERALDS OR DIE, HE DON'T LOVE YOU.

Haha. Am I that predictable? No, I'm not here to rub the fact that you're all internet losers in anyone's face. That sounds unfunny. I'm here to post and enjoy different peoples' opinions on various subjects, which is apparently taboo.

His IP is from Houston, TX. Who do we know there? Send a strike team and eliminate him.

Thanks for the birthday wishes, by the way, Gift of Game. I must, however, kill you now. Because this is the internet and we take our shit seriously. It's nothing personal.

But this isn't the sort of passive-aggressive tug of war for attention that Liz employs. Liz prefers to be the target of everyone else's wrath so that he can justify his victim status. "Internet Tough Guy" was never his schtick.

And GoG is too eloquent to be a Divest dupe.

He's not nearly self-important enough to be Yamamanama.

My guess is that SirVG finally ponied up for a hooker, became a man, and is now here to show off his newly discovered fountain of testosterone.

Could be Kornbix following his mum back here, all full of testosterone from his time in the forces (Other men's testosterone of course).

Sadly, it's probably nobody as interesting as any of those people. I'm willing to bet that whoever it is will make a big show of how we can't work it out and how they're totally fooling us and then it'll all be one big anti-climax when we find out it's nobody we ever heard of and just ban them again. Chances are it's someone Styphon banned in one of his culls, probably without even noticing the name. It's obviously someone banned otherwise they'd have come back using their old name. I'm tempted to ban them on those grounds alone but I'd hate to deny them the pleasure of their big reveal.

I'm happy to give them a day or so.

Twenty bucks says it's just Skate fucking with us for kicks.

Oh I thought it was Legion. (Also equally creepy)

That's not fair.

Legion was (inadvertently) amusing on occasion.

This is, without a doubt, the lamest Scooby-Doo mystery EVER. There's not even a real estate scam involved. And what kind of lame-ass mask is that? Sass hasn't even dropped her glasses and complained about not being able to see once.

I'm changing the channel.