Market forces and you or "Why popular stuff costs lots" for beginners
 

OK, well I've just seen the single most evil and ingenious thing on the new Xbox Avatar Marketplace which is going to make someone a lot of money: a lightsaber for 400 points.

400 points! That is a stupid amount of money for nothing. But I'm sure it'll sell quite a few. In fact this whole thing. It's dumb beyond words, but it'll work. Reward shit for in-game achievements: yes. Sell it: hell no. But then they did it on the PlayStation with Home and people seemed to buy shit on there despite common sense, so you know facepalm, etc.

Holy crap, 400 points? I figured this stuff would only cost about as much as gamerpics. I have to wonder if we'll ever see any new free clothes now that they have an avatar marketplace. It'll be neat to earn accessories and costumes from games, but I'm not paying that much for anything.

It's worked just fabulous over at Gaia and in games like Pangya. Offer free thing. Make the customization part = gimmemoniesplz.

I mean you guys should have figured this out after horse armor.

I might be willing to pay 100-150 points for something, but 400? No way. It's not like avatars do that much anyway.

What does this have to do with Horse Armour? No one's surprised here. Just...annoyed. All we're commenting on is the price point. We saw it coming, but to actually see it regardless still brings pangs of shock and disappointment.

One's a game function, one's for something that can best be described as a metafeature for a console, with no game integration itself.

Lots of purely visual game upgrades are overpriced (fighting game costumes, for example, or new character colours), but this is a new level of pricing ripoff because, in essence, it's even more useless. But the prices aren't reflective of that. They are even more expensive than the already overpriced themes and gamerpics.

At least in the game environment you can interact with whatever it is you wasted money on. The avatars, not so much. I doubt Joy Ride will include support for all the premium avatar content, you won't be driving around while holding a lightsabre or anything.

Erm, do you think I'm arguing against it's existance as a good business move? All I'm saying is it's not quite the same thing as Acer's Horse Armour example. Different cuts from the same ripoff cloth, though.

And yes. Internet tough guy but buying it anyway is the name of the game for this generation. And we'll continue to be exploited as long as those of us with an iota of self control are outnumbered by those of us without. While I won't be stupid enough to spend any money on this marketplace, the fact that some people are doesn't make it any less depressing.

And yeah. Obviously we knew this all already, but it's a new reason to lament about the same old problem, so.

I think, as Skills is saying, no one is surprised. I'm not, not at all. Especially once Sony proved it was a viable way to make money with micro-transactions in Home. However, that doesn't change the fact that stuff like that should, as far as I'm concerned at least, be free. Or if there must be a cost, why not something completely inconsequential like 5 or 10 points, maybe 80 for the really fancy stuff.

But 160, 320 and 400 points for a lot of shit? What now?! That's the same price, double, or a track pack of songs in Rock Band (probably Guitar Hero too) which can provide a load of gameplay value. 400 points is the price of some older XBLA games, like Uno, which can also provide loads of value. I'm not saying I'm surprised they're charging, I'm saying the prices are fucking crazy, as is anyone who pays them.

(And just for the record I also thought that gamerpics should have been free and refused to pay for any; the only time I did so being when I thought I was buying the Puzzle Fighter game, which pissed me off no end because I didn't want to spend money on gamerpics.)

Thing is, I like the Avatar idea to a reasonable extent, which I know isn't necessarily the popular point of view here, but I do. And I like having more customisation options, and certainly some fairly cool (if geeky ones). And if I could dress my dude up in COG armour from Gears 2 because I've beaten the game on Insane, then awesome. If I can have a little Halo 3 t-shirt because I own the game, sure why not. Paying for that crap, not a chance. I understand the business reasoning behind it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

I'm not going to lie, I bought one of the SFIV costume packs. I will agree they were somewhat overpriced, but I never complained about the pricing then (and still wouldn't really) and happily paid my money (essentially for the Cammy alt. outfit which I loved the look of so sue me). But then I played enough and used them enough that I didn't mind paying.

Your point is valid though Devo, plenty of people do complain and then go and spend the money anyways. Sometimes it is incredibly difficult though, you only have to look at the issue facing a lot of gamers in the UK with Modern Warfare 2 and them jacking up the price because they know they can. Sure you can argue that people should vote with their wallets, but they miss out on the game, and playing with other people in countries where the price isn't jacked up. It's not always black and white (though in this case it clearly is as the avatar shit has no real value at all and you don't lose anything by not buying it, as Skills says your avatar still exists).

Sorry Devo, but you're massively over-simplifying the issue there. I'm going to refer you back to the example of Modern Warfare 2. So you're saying because I disagree with the pricing of the game in the UK I should forgo one of my most anticipated titles of the last few years (since I finished MW1 really), forgo the chance to play with all my friends who live in territories where the price isn't being jacked up all for some moral high-ground? That sounds an awful lot like cutting the nose off to spite the face, not trying to vote with a wallet.

In some morally black and white game world it might be that easy, but we live within shades of grey and rightly or wrongly many people shouldn't have to lose out to try and prove a point.

Just like boycotting rarely works, voting with one's wallet rarely works either. If anything, there seems to be an ironic twist to sales-based results. If only a few people buy a good game (Front Mission 4), then it's fairly likely that other good games won't be made, or at least won't be released in the territory the previous game didn't sell well in (Front Mission 5, widely regarded as the best in the series, not released in U.S.) However, if only a few people buy a shitty game...well, nothing changes, companies still keep putting out shitty games constantly (Sonic). Same principle seems to apply to films. I realize that's completely beside the scope of this argument, but it just goes to show you there is no balanced force at work in game economics. DLC costs the game companies next to nothing to make (maps are probably the only things that do), and cost Microsoft (or Sony) next to nothing to host. They're almost completely profit. So if you don't buy their DLC, they don't care, they're not losing out on anything. And let's say no single gamer buys a particularly BS piece of DLC. So what? They'll just find something more appetizing, but just as cheap to produce, that will lure gamers in.

What really burns me is thinking about general price discrepancies in everything we buy anyway. It costs $4 to give Cammy a sexy jacket and Zangief some pants. Seems quite overpriced (as being such a small percentage of the game's overall content). But then you think...well, what else can I get for $4? A basic cheeseburger meal at McDonald's. Hmm, a few months of gameplay staring at Cammy's ass, or 5 min. of an unsatisfying "burger product". When you think about it that way, the DLC seems like a better deal doesn't it? But no, it's still a shitty deal! ARGH *BRAINSPLODE* Don't even get me started on the fact that a pair of women's jeans costs as much as a PS2 game.

Look, the system is never gonna change unless you go work for "X" game company yourself (or more importantly, M$) and bring some honest business practices into the works. That isn't going to happen, so really, take a look at what's being offered and decide whether or not you can buy something better than 48 new BlazBlue character colors for $5. That's the only way it can be justified.


I myself have bought 2 Street Fighter IV costume packs, the BlazBlue color palettes, 9 Soul Calibur IV helmets, and the RE5 versus mode. All ripoffs, of course, but really...what the hell else was I gonna do with $5? Drive through a random toll booth? Buy 2 pairs of socks?

Supporting Activision in any way, shape or form is always wrong. Besides, there are better shooters made by better companies to support (Half Life for example).

The only way the pricing structure for games and DLC will change is if more people actively stop supporting it. Not "after X game is released", not "as soon as I get this product", but now. Take a stand, and make sure your friends support you in it. What matters is waht YOU do, and without people starting anything, nothing will get done.

Our problem as gamers is that we have no recourse against the companies that make our hobby but denial of purchase. We can't return a product because of shoddy workmanship (bugs) or a poorly done game, especially when companies want to market all games as equal (Is Borderlands equal to Fallout 3 which is equal to Little Big Planet and in turn equal to Lair? The companies that make them would like you to think so). The media helps this further with hype and marketing, as well as developers whoring exclusive pre-order content driving day-one sales which only drives consumer disatisfaction higher when they get a shitty game, and no way to get their hard-earned cash back.

Why do you think piracy is so high? Try-before-you throw $60 down the toilet. Of course that's more difficult to do when you play things like the PS3 which can't run pirated content - yet. Games either need to start releasing better as a whole (not going to happen) or games need to come down in price so people feel less ripped off after they buy something. Is "Transformers" a rip-off at $60? How about $20? $10? Terminator Salvation? How about Stormrise?

Companies need to get it through their collective skulls that gamers won't support their shit, and they won't until gamers "actually" stop supporting their shit.

The whole situation is inherently hopeless.

The gaming industry mirrors the movie industry. Hollywood is in town, and they have no interest in leaving. What was once a hobby for social shut-ins, geeks, and :cool: people has now become a favored past time for...social shut-ins, geeks, and everyone else. 'Casual' gets slung around a lot in the gaming community, often as a slur. However, since gaming has become such a popular way to blow hours, the industry can churn out absolute garbage and still make a profit.

Better graphics, sub-par gameplay.

Michael Bay has invaded video games, and we're sucking his dick one game purchase at a time.

There is no gamer collective. There is no hope in voting for our wallets, in spite of my supporting that notion for years. Gamers who genuinely care about their hobby with passion are vastly outnumbered by the retarded many, whom see games as nothing more than childish entertainment with little to zero artistic value. I don't buy shit that's needlessly overpriced because I have bills to pay. I also kind of like having money in my savings, since that's kind of important. I don't need authentic night vision goggles with my copy of Modern Warfare 2. If I need to kill zombies at night, then I'll be sure to head down to Best Buy and fetch me a pair.

Here's something you can do, which might contradict what I said previously, but I'm writing on a forum so who cares. If you see a game and a developer trying something new that catches your fancy, if you see that little gem amongst the shit-smothered plastic cases at your nearest Gamestop, support it. Buy it. Go on. Lend a hand and support something that won't get money from the thousands upon thousands of retards on XBox Live. Don't pirate it, and then wonder why nobody's making these games anymore.

Only then can you truthfully open your mouth and bitch. And bitch. And bitch.

Yeah, that new Half Life coming out this Christmas is one of my most anticipated titles.

Don't be a fucking idiot.

I don't like Activision's pricing policy either, but I laugh at how fucking simple in the head some of you folks are.

Buy what you like, and spend what you think the product is worth. If you don't think it's worth the extra 10 bucks or whatever, don't fucking get it.

"always wrong", hah. Did you also refuse to buy things like Mirror's Edge, even when the SUPER EVIL OH MY GOD SATAN EA took a risk on it? Or did you boycott them entirely, not showing support for "GEE MAYBE YOU SHOULD DO MORE LIKE THIS?" and in the end teach them FUCK ALL outside of "well people still buy Madden!".

If anything, the fact that people will be buying tonnes of Modern Warfare 2 and probably not a whole hell of a lot of Tony Hawk's plastic faggotry or DJ Hero's overpriced widgets (at their ridiculous MSRP) goes to show that people will vote with their wallets either way.

And they fucking did, especially in the case of Terminator. GRIN is hemorraging jobs, and it's actually quite sad.

I swear, the mental midgets on the internet, man.

Man, this almost tempts me to buy the stormtrooper armor, helmet, and lightsaber just to piss people off.

Also, the fact that when you're in a party chat, you don't see any accessories that your friends have on that main party screen almost completely defeats the purpose of having that stuff. It is neat seeing random people on my friends list (not in parties) whip out stuff, but the only reason pretty much everybody I know that bought any of that stuff (including myself) was because we were under the impression everyone in your party would whip their stuff out. Me and Tails were crushed that we aren't going to be able to have 8 people on the party screen doing this:

YouTube Video

Seriously, you dance forever. Me and Tails were in tears this morning watching it. I've got a dude on my list with the crazy tophat who does the pom pom dance, it is pretty amusing I have to admit. Only being able to see that by going directly to their profile if they're in a party kills it though.

See the problem here Devo is you talk the talk, but I'm willing to bet good money you won't walk the walk. So, we agree that Activision are scummy shitfucks for the crap they're pulling with the pricing for Modern Warfare 2 yes? And that the way to combat the millions upon millions they're going to sell is to protest with our wallets, so are you going to join me in not buying the game? I mean, sure it's not overpriced there but you agree that they're acting in an evil way so surely this means that you should take a stand too yes? After all, it's a game not a heating bill.

Skills, Lord Jaroh and anyone else, you too. You guys going to not buy Modern Warfare 2 because they're screwing the UK over with their pricing here? Almost certainly not. If any of you are not buying the game it's either because you don't want it or can't afford it, not because you're voting with your wallets.

And also, how about voting that I like good, well made games. I dislike the pricing policy, but I believe Infinity Ward are great developers and I'd much rather them get a shit ton of money than some piss-ant dev house churning out shitty movie tie-ins or yearly sequels. As Skills said, should I not have bought Mirror's Edge because EA can be bastards? In fact, did you Devo ever try and get your money back for Battlefield 1943, because you were certainly pretty angry about how crap that initial experience was, as much as Skills or I.

It's so fucking easy to talk in morally superior way, but unless you back it up with actions it's meaningless.

Who is it going to piss off? It's your money dude, buy what you like, my original point was that it appears to be a massive waste of anyone's money and I think you'd have to be crazy to buy that shit.

Congratulations, point missed. I'm not talking in a morally superior way, I've been recognising that the decisions aren't always easily made, and that despite me disagreeing with the pricing decision someone up high has made, I want to a) support a really good developer who I'd like to see keep making games, and b) actually really want the game so am willing to pay the jacked up price. Just because I can afford to pay it, and am willing to, doesn't mean I have to agree with it though, and I can remember when I was a poor student and that would have made the game almost unattainable.

I'm not the one coming along and saying we should just flat out never buy games if we have some objection to some part of them, like pricing, which tries to box things into some nice black and white world of morality. But you know Cirno, don't let the actual words stop you from missing an opportunity to try post a funny picture.

At the risk of sounding patronising here, you're saying that MW2 is one of the most anticipated games since the parting of the Red Sea but at the same time saying that it's a rip-off.

Do you not see the basic hole in your arguement here?

I mean, if I had produced a really popular game and I was going to release a sequel that would sell hundreds of copies on launch day just from the name alone, you know what, I'd charge a fucking fortune for it too. By saying you're going to buy it, you're saying that although it's expensive, you've already judged it to be a price worth paying.

You make a concious decision every time you buy a game. You weigh up the price against a number of factors, probably how long you'll play it for and who you can play it with. In your case, you want to play it as soon as possible and against the maximum number of people online so you're willing to pay a premium for the game. If you just wanted to play the single player campaign or weren't bothered about joining the launch day rush then you could buy it later, cheaper.

One of the reasons that these days popular games don't drop so much in price is that people are still playing them online. A less popular game falls in price quicker because the number of online opponents falls so there is less value in the game.

Essentially, you can't complain about the price of games if you buy them on launch day, you simply can't. You can beleive that games companies produce games because they love playing them or out of loyalty to the fans or to create art for art's sake if you want but you're simply deluding yourself. They are out to make money, simple as that and they have been ever since people started paying for games (Rather than copying out 25 pages of BASIC from the bag of a magazine like in the good old days). It's really simple economics but a lot of people, not just Omagnus are acting surprised that companies that want to make money will charge a premium for popular products.

If you think MW2 is too highly priced, wait until Christmas to get it when the price will have dropped a bit. The game will still be the same and there'll still be people playing it online.

Games are actually hilariously cheap these days anyway. I remember paying £60 for Killer Instinct on SNES and that was a good 14 years ago. I never bought so many games as when I was a student either.

This whole discussion is basically retarded. If you think something's too pricey, buy it a few months later when the price comes down or don't buy it at all. That's all there is to it, I fail to see how any other course of action can be supported.

Well I'm paying £18 for the Limited Edition of Modern Warfare 2, so no, I don't really consider that to be all that pricey. And at no point am I saying it's surprising. I'm also not saying it's a rip-off. I'm saying that I don't agree with the price hike just in the UK and that if I wasn't fortunate enough to be in a pretty well paid job it would suck a massive one and I would be forced to wait until the price dropped.

And I do indeed follow the exact course of action you describe Shin: if I don't believe something is worth the money, I don't pay it, simple as. I either wait for it to drop in price or never bother at all. Which is exactly what I'm saying about the Avatar Marketplace stuff, which I will never be buying because I don't believe (personally) any of it is worth the money. It's exactly why I'm not even contimplating DJ Hero, which has looked interesting and for £70-80 I might have been willing to give a go, but at £110, not a chance.

I'm doing exactly what you're saying here Shin, I'm buying the things I consider worth my money. Voicing an opinion isn't acting surprised or failing to understand that companies are out to make money.

I am seriously hoping that they can somehow make it happen in the regular party window in the near future, because an 8 man BRING IT ON troop in someones friends list is bound to be the most bizarre shit anyone will see on Live.

I am this close to buying them because it's that damn funny. I mean they're only what, 160MSP? I don't give a fuck.

The Xbox 360 is officially the most fabulous console ever.

I am also sad you folks are trying to talk Lord British out of buying MW2 and cheering on Activision, because playing MW2 without Lord Sucks-A-Dick is like playing Halo 3 without rollin on dubs. It's just not happening.

Fuck, I'll buy that shit for OP if I have to.

Yep, I'm paraphrasing to take a cheap shot, sue me

You're still wrong though Shin. Notice how I said "as far as I'm concerned at least, be free". That means that, in my opinion, those things should be free. I don't believe, personally, that people should have to pay for them. That, however, is divorced from my understanding that companies want to make money and will therefore charge for stuff they could happily give away free for no real loss.

But fear not Shin, you win, I fail, whatever. I'll just take solace in knowing that I can tell the difference between a statement of opinion and fact.

So you missed the bit at the bottom where I acknowledged the fallacy of my post as I made it then?

Yes I did, as on this screen that is a little one pixel high line just above your signature.

Honestly I thought they already had. I just don't care to look, since I'm perfectly happy with a basic avatar that mostly resembles me. They can introduce all the customisation they like, I doubt I'd ever want to pay for any of it or even take it for free.

:)

That's the best way to do a disclaimer.

So, we're SURPRISED . . . that DJ Hero's gonna cost a good bit, what with having a special peripheral? What game with a game specific peripheral DIDN'T cost 20-?? bucks more (STELL BATTALION I'M LOOKING AT YOU) than your average game?

I'd hope the table was heftier than a guitar or that Beatmania controller that came when they released the home edition in the US.


...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ontrollers.jpg

I wanted that game SO BAD, if only for the stupid controller.

It's fantastic, by the way. But you knew that.

Also, no one was surprised.

Can no one read anymore or is this whole showing up in a thread and not paying attention a week late just a wivvle thing these days?

Man, Street Fighter II Turbo was fucking expensive!

I bought the Guitar Prop just because I wanted to have a prop and I didn't think anything else they had would fit my avatar. But seriously WTF? A lightsaber that does nothing costs the same as making Darth Vader playable in Soul Calibur IV? That's kinda retarded.

I wish they'd make an adapter to use the Steel Battalion "controller" with the 360 and maybe release a revamped version of the game on XBL. My SB has been sitting in a box for 3 years.


I know, I have a better chance of wishing for world peace, regular flights to the moon, and $100 million and it coming true than this happening.


But really, would anything else in the world rock harder than playing Steel Battalion in HD in front of a 46+" Samsung? Besides piloting an actual mech, of course.

There are PC drivers. Use those.

I'm not really sure how this is an issue of drivers when I'm talking about a) the ports on X-Box controllers not being USB, b) wanting a new/remade SB game in High Def, and c) playing on 360, not PC.

Uh, obviously.

But since you're pipe dreaming and wishing for something that isn't going to come along, I'm offering the next best alternative. Something that actually exists.

You want a good mech game? Mech 4 is free now. The SB controller will work with it. Original Xbox to USB convertors are dirt fucking cheap. It's not the most gorgeous game but you can easily output it to your TV.

"I want a golden toilet wouldn't that be awesome"
"Well here's how you can poop in a regular one and still have a good time"
"THIS DOES NOT HELP MY GOLD DREAMS"

Don't be a twatrocket.

Alright, and you didn't just say that the first time, why? I mean, if I were a little bit psychic "PC Drivers" might stand as an in-depth answer, but otherwise it just seems completely out of context.

No, it's more that I didn't care about the back and forth between Shin and Omagnus so I went back to the part of the conversation just beforehand where (you) were bitching about the "overpriced widget."

Steel Battalion is (was) overpriced, sure, but compared to the premium they're charging for DJ Hero, what you got for that stupid price seemed like a much easier pill to swallow. Or the extra 30 dollars for Ride when it's essentially the same thing as Wii Fit's balance board.

Extra single (or maybe two, if you're lucky) use peripherals always cost a shit tonne more, but my point is that charging an even larger premium than usual, saturating the damn market, in a recession of all things, and then expecting it all to sell a fuckload seems a tad bit shortsighted.

Who knows, maybe I'll eat my hat. But I don't expect all that from this.

Not like Harmonix is doing better with the RB:Beatles price point of 250 dollars, of course. What the hell.

And even if you directly responded to my overpriced widget commentary, you still didn't read what was being said, but that's cool too.

Like I mentioned earlier, I hope that the deck is going to be somewhat substantial (the Guitar Hero guitars are at about a 1:2 scale to MOST electrics, especially the ones they're emulating physically; judging by pics I've seen the DJ Hero set seems to be possibly 1:1.5 scaled... at least the platter. I dunno about the rest of it.)

If the size/action of it is reasonable, I don't see a huge issue with the price, since I figure it'll be good for future iterations of the product.

I think the DJ deck is a comparable size to a cd mixer and who actually mixes vinyl anymore? Shit, to be a really accurate depiction of djing they need an option where you pre-load your setlist onto a laptop then stand behind the decks pretending to mix and doing lines of coke all night (Sup Lilly Allen, Peaches Geldof, Pretty much every indie band member who's played a dj set in the last five years?).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE7CXZ1Lyu4

excuse me? do you see the fucking work that is going on there?

... I do premade mixes, but that's because I mix for CD and not for live. At least I'd be out on the floor getting my dance on instead of pretending to mix if they were played out.

People just rent out wvlf instead of getting a disco ball. The way the light refracts off his balding head is the real attraction, the music's just a bonus.