LeHah's Abandonware Emporium
 

There is no concept as "abandonware" - thats just a hipster term for internet assholes to steal things without feeling bad about biting hands that feed them.

Example: EA still holds all the IP and rights surrounding their earliest games. To this day, they refuse to distribute engines/code/whatever to stuff farther back than 1990.

o what a bunch of dicks

Well, its kind of like the analogy about cars: Just because the owner isn't using it doesn't give you the right to break the window and drive off with it.

(It should be noted, though, that EA *did* release the original Wing Commander for free on a PC Gamer disc back in 1999 or something. But its only free on that ONE DISC.)

That's a garbage analogy. If someone download's a DC game, a legitimate copy purchased by someone doesn't just blink out of existence. Your analogy is more like saying "just because the owner isn't using his DC games doesn't give you the right to walk into his apartment and take them." And you're right. It doesn't.

However, DCs are no longer being sold, nor are DC games. The company will never see any of the money that is being paid for their past products. There is no way to buy anything in such a way as to support the company. So, should people feel bad about not paying out ebay powerseller GamesOnline1004 instead of just downloading an ISO? I don't think so.

However, a lot of the companies who've made DC games (as well as Sega themselves, albeit a shadow of their former self) still exist and still own legal rights over the material you're talking about.

Will they see loss of money? No, probably not. Will they see it as IP infringement? Absolutely.

Pretty sure they won't "see" it at all.

And? =o

Well, if its for something like Brat Billy's Buttfuck Buttfucking Butt Bonanza, no one is going to care.

But if its for Halo - then you're talking about Mountain Dew tie-in ads and novelizations and action figures and everything else. Stepping on their toes by stealing their IP makes things difficult in the shorter/broader perspective, if not so much the long run.

And lets be serious, folks... and Pang: If you want to pirate software, pirate software -- it's your choice, there are certainly many less moral things you could do... but at least have some backbone and call a spade a spade instead of inventing an elaborate explanation about why you've been *forced* to steal an entertainment product. "Abandonware" has absolutely no special legal status. It's a term jerks made up so they could feel better about themselves for stealing.

In the end, pretending that stealing a game is some form of "respect" is assinine... pay the four bucks on ebay, you bunch of fucking kike bastards.

Like what things? You think people who download games are less likely to buy Mountain Dew?

LeHah, you stop ruining my fucking DC Nostalgia thread right now.

Go buy one and post a picture of it or I'm calling Skills on you.

I'm pretty sure Halo isn't on the Dreamcast, LeHah.

(Come on Aard. I know you're just playing dumb here.)

Its called infringement. There are many ways to do it. Mountain Dew and EA had an exchange of legal status things to have that promotion happen - its vaugely similar to walking into a Bestbuy and buying a copy of Halo.

Downloading it illegally isn't covered in that.

Also, because Tails is getting all black at me:

http://www.t2-project.org/hardware/c...eamcast/dc.jpg
http://gallery.scroogie.de/d/314-1/i..._dreamcast.jpg
http://technabob.com/blog/wp-content..._dreamcast.jpg
http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resou...inSystem.p.jpg
http://wire.ggl.com/wp/wp-content/up.../dreamcast.jpg
http://darkdiamond.net/wp-content/up...reamcast02.jpg

Honestly I doubt any companies truly care about it. Why? If you bought the game legally with cash money, would they see gain of money? No. Because all the secondhand shops and mom and pop game stores that would still sell DC games aren't getting them from the manufacturers of those games, they're getting them from old warehouses and places like eBay: places that don't give the IP holders any cut of the cash.

Sure, its still infringement, but it's not really worth doing anything about to them. If anything it's free advertisement for the case they ever make a sequel.

Now, games that they port, that might be a different story.

Well, first of all, you can still easily buy Halo, so no one would call it abandonware in the first place. And I agree that, strictly legally speaking, most things that people call abandonware actually aren't. But morally, if the only way of getting a game is buying it used from a private seller, I don't have a problem with downloading instead. And I still don't understand what Mountain Dew or other merchandise has to do with it. If anything, the more people play a game -- legally or otherwise -- the better the tie-in merchandise will sell (since you can't download Mountain Dew).

Like, say, downloading Space Channel 5 when you could purchase it for PS2 and still give Sega money?

Or are you talking about awful ports that leave out functionality?

Edit: DAMMIT AARD.

So LeHah, I'm curious... a quick example: I imported Radiant Silvergun for the Sega Saturn back when it first came out for about $70. I sold it on eBay many years later for $165. Before doing so however, I copied the CD into an ISO and continue to play it now and then on my currrently-modded Sega Saturn.

Would what I've done be considered stealing? If so, who am I stealing from? I can't help but wonder, because I purchased and supported both the development studios, and the publishers by purchasing numerous games (at full price, plus importer retail markup), soundtrack CDs, and other miscellaneous products like my Shining Force 3 artbook. I'm certainly not stealing from the individuals buying my legitimate copies of games on eBay, because they're getting exactly what they paid for. And as far as losing future sales potential, that's a load of crap too, since I've repurchased Rez, Ikaruga, and numerous other games as they've been re-released. I'd buy a re-released Radiant Silvergun on Xbox Live in a heartbeat, as it's still my favorite 2D shooter of all time.

Just wondering where you draw the line.

Someone split the thread before Tails throws another fit? Thanks.

Done.

You're putting an awful lot of words in my mouth, there, Dr. Logorrhoea. I said nothing about my own pirating tendencies at all, I'm just saying what the view seems to be in what's left of the Dreamcast user community these days (all 6 of those guys).

Is anybody being "forced" to download DC ISOs instead of paying some ebay goon? No. But unless you're one of those creepy faggots with the pristine collection all boxes & manuals included there's no goddamn reason to buy a used game when you could just copy it. It is an activity that literally injures no one except the theoretical jackass trying to resell his copy of Skies of Arcadia for $90.

Isn't Abandonware supposed to be software which at one point wasn't freeware, but since has been released by the developer as Freeware? I mean, yeah, there's lots of stuff that's called Abandonware that's still copyrighted and just called OLD GAMES YOU CAN DOWNLOAD FOR FREE WITH NOBODY CARING, but there are actual titles that, while at one point cost money, are now public domain.

Lets say that I have a copy of Skies Of Arcadia. I take that and rip it and stick it on the internet because I'm a douche. Say 5 or 15 or 50 people download it. Just make up a number, it doesn't matter.

Now theres a copy of the game that wasn't pressed or created by the company out there in the world. The people who pressed that game didn't get money for that copy (when the game was new), and in turn the company doesn't get credit for however many X copies we're talking about. Even I will admit that the numbers won't matter much unless we start talking about big numbers - but across how many games and how many platforms does this kind of shit take place?

Now instead of Skies Of Arcadia, lets say its the gayest fucking shit ever - Halo. Consoles like XBox Live and Wii (I don't know if PS3 does this?) now have backwards compatibility thing-os which allow you to download previous generation games to play them. I could download Halo for a couple of bucks if I had no self-respect. However, if I'm a douchebag college student who watches Family Guy and strokes his chin-grease over reruns of Battlestar Galactica - why should I buy it if I can get it for free from some internet torrent cockfuckery?

Another example - perhaps flawed - is something like Gametap. What a grand experiment gone HORRIBLY WRONG. It was an online service that allowed you to download ol games and run them on a WinXP machine without a problem.

They had Wing Commander. I have a fucking hard-on for that action.

Why was this important? I own Wing Commander I already -- in fact, I own me *lots* of Wing Commander. I have all the games on floppy and CD-ROM and DVD and books and novelizations and cartoons and jewlery and, Jesus Christ, I have emails from Chris Roberts himself.

So, I wasn't excited because I could play Wing Commander I again. I was excited because of what the release meant. For years and years and years we hardcore gamers with the slightest moral bent would tell people exactly what you're telling them here - buy the old game, buy the old game.

That's great - contrary to popular opinion, there are lots of copies of the original Wing Commander out there and they can be had for a few dollars each. I've even sent out extras to people who need them and can't get them some other way. But those small facts are a drop of rain in the super-bucket of software piracy... people invented the concept of "abandonware" in order to feel okay about stealing and it's been an uphill battle ever since.

GameTap solved that problem - no, look!, we could shout, Wing Commander is available again! You can legally buy it - it isn't abandoned at all! That was great.

There's the tech issue, too... not everyone (almost no one, actually) wants to configure a computer to run classic games correctly. I know we're the cream of the crop when it comes to intelligent internet characters and we can all figure out DOSBox or build our own classic gaming rigs - but the vast majority of people just want to quickly play their favorite game from years past.

While Gametap died because they ended up being run by a dumb bag of doorknobs - the idea that Gametap could reform into other services is kind of quashed by people who use "abandonware" claims as their armor.

I mean, for people who claim to love video games too many are not willing to support the people that make them and thats godawful. It would be like inviting your grandparents over so you could club them over the head with a fireplace poker and take their money.

It just sucks, y'know?

I think the difference between "Abandonware" and "Public Domain" is the same difference between the words bear and bare - they're vaugely similar but mean totally different things if you bother to use your brain.

I'm confused. I could swear that Gametap is still up and running. I mean, what with the commercials still running on TV and all.

Stop dwelling in the realm of ideals and get practical. Nobody is losing anything concrete in this equation.

Let's say I download an ISO of FIFA 99. EA is no longer producing material copies of this game; they are no longer estimating and calculating revenues from purchases of this game. EA is no longer paying royalties to Sega for sales of FIFA 99. All transactions involving this game are on the secondhand market and use a system of exchange so arbitrary that there's no way Sega or EA could even begin to calculate perceived losses. It is, for all intents and purposes, a game obsoleted by subsequent versions and technology itself. There's no real stake in the FIFA 99 market.

As for Mountain Dew, Red Bull, and any other tie-in product, they should shut up and be glad people are still being exposed to the ads in these games, downloaded or otherwise. They know there's no such thing as bad publicity so it's extremely doubtful that Mountain Dew is going to up and launch a proprietary suit against leechers and ISPs who facilitate piracy.

Likewise, it's not in Sega's better interests to formally go after pirates. That would alienate the existing fanbase who would happily support any future console endeavors on Sega's part. The people who download Dreamcast ISOs do so because there's really no other practical and/or affordable way to play those games. Sega receives no compensation from secondhand sales; you're not supporting the company by purchasing off Ebay or at a flea market, so why pay through the nose for something so discardable as an ideal? Does paying $120 for a hard copy of Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 make you a better man? No, it makes you a silly man.

Here's a good analogy for Abandonware: It's like the public library. It sometimes takes a while for popular titles to become available, but they eventually do. In the meantime, there's plenty of older and forgotten titles for everyone to enjoy. The purchase fees and royalties have already been handled, nobody is going without.

Why are you so worried about the legal holdings of companies in which you have no stake, anyhow? Do you not watch TV and/or movie clips on YouTube because the studios, actors and distributors aren't getting their cut, also?

As far as games with ''yearly updates'' go, I can kind of see downloaders hurting sales (in theory). The FIFA '99 market as such is dead, but not the FIFA franchise. If there was no way to download the game, at least some of those people would have to go out and buy FIFA 2009 instead.

http://www.gametap.com/

yup[/lazarus]

Maybe. It depends on whether a person simply wants an official-sounding soccer game or if he's sincerely interested in rosters. The heavier fans, the ones to whom the FIFA series caters, are probably not that interested in playing with pros from a decade ago. Given the choice, they'd likely opt for the current teams.

You could make an argument for downloading an older game to see if you like how they present the series, however. EA's known for changing relatively little between iterations, so the differences between FIFA 03 and FIFA 08 are probably not that grand.

It is - but not in its original form. There was a lot of interior re-management that affected the site's materials and policy. They lost a shit-ton of great games for refusing to resign with EA.

Dear Sir (or Madame),
You may be right.
Sincerely yours, HL Mencken

Or, you know, one could be a subset of the other.

Abandonware seems to be an internet buzzword. Do you see it mentioned on a website like CNet when it comes to their download section? I can't remember ever hearing the term until 2002, and only then on the internet.

On the other hand, Public Domain appears in all sorts of legal records and offical paperwork. It has an actual definition to it and can be discussed in places like courts or criminal justice classes.

But they have SYBERIA. Also PSYCHONAUTS. FOR FREE!

I have heard that a person/company can lost rights over something over a (very lengthy) period of time if those rights are not renewed. However, it takes a long, long time, unless they give them up themselves.

I always understood Abandonware as something the publishers will say "Hey, here ya go. We aren't responsible for anything you do with this and good luck with it, but we still retain the rights to it all". I think that over time, people have modified that definition so that a publisher isn't "required" to blatantly say "here you go, guys". Of course, that doesn't legally mean anything as NoA has actively gone after ROM sites for NES/SNES roms despite everyone saying that they were 'abandonware'.

Now, in the long scheme of things does this hurt anyone? Presuming there aren't any remakes, revisions, ports, re-releases, "Classic Online Gaming Networks" (see Nintendo) or "collection series", then no. Yet, that doesn't make it legal.

Consequently, some of this may all be quite a topic people will discuss on in the future. If Nintendo were to ever REALLY open up it's gaming library to encompass retro-gaming, then all the talk regarding NES/SNES roms being abandonware will fall to the wayside (well, maybe not ALL).

I remember the rumors of NoA opening the entire released SNES library for the Virtual Console.



I remember being happy that this might be really nice.





I remember being sorely disappointed.

To take this argument perhaps in a little different direction, what I see in our society today tells me that the general populace doesn't concern itself with concepts such as "abandonware," and simply downloads what it can, even if the title was only released hours earlier or is in fact a pre-release version that hasn't even hit the shelves yet. Enthusiasts that frequent forums such as this one are more nuanced than that, as evidenced by this thread for example, but are far fewer in numbers.

The recent writer's strike illustrates how important getting compensated for Internet downloads is to content creators. I wonder at times if the iPod generation has a strong concept of what IP actually is, or if they are blind to such issues? I remember we used to record cassette tape mixes of our favorite songs off the radio. Is this the same thing as downloading songs for free off the Internet? I'm not sure. When we recorded songs to cassette, we were listening to the live radio feed, which included advertisements. So, the songs were generating ad revenue. However, since we didn't tape the ads the ad revenue was not being generated upon repeated listening.

On a similar note, does it make a difference if I borrow a friend's copy of a song, movie, or game, if that copy was purchased at retail or copied for free off the Internet? Either way, it is not generating revenue since I'm only borrowing it. But in this case if the first step of the process is illegitimate, is anything derived from it de facto illegitimate also?

If I'm downloading new games, I'm not paying for them. If I'm downloading old games, I'm not buying as many new games as I otherwise would and therefore not funding the development of new games or the industry in general. So, does downloading games of whatever state of "abandonment" one wishes to define, hurt or help the industry? Industry sales are up overall in 2008, even with this crazy economy, yet many smaller development houses are folding for various reasons. Similar to the movie industry, we are seeing a collapse of the "middle," with only giant titles (GTA IV, Halo, etc.) or freeware being released, with less and less in between.

One could argue, I suppose, that freeware is similarly problematic. By downloading games that were never offered for sale, one is also not providing development capital to the game industry. I think where this argument fails, however, is that I have not yet seen freeware of the quality of titles like Half-Life 2. Various alternative models have been tried before, such as ad-supported titles, but these haven't been proven as viable alternatives to the tried & true retail model (whether B&M or Steam-type models) thus far.

I wonder, given the current state of the economy, if there will be a drastic uptick in "questionable" downloads vs. retail purchases?

I'm trying not to paint any strokes too broadly here, as this is a complex topic. This is a good thread for discussion, and I hope we never see the day where such topics are not discussed...

American Copyright laws allow things to fall into public domain if its over 50 years old and only if theres no estate involved. Other countries have similar laws though the time for it to fall into public domain varries.

I don't know why I'm even responding to this - but you have to be a giant goddamned idiot to ever think this happened by a company looking to make any sort of money.

Dear Sir (or Madame),
You may be right.
Sincerely yours, HL Mencken

08 let you control offensive players off the ball and had almost unrecognisably better AI than 03 (Called Road to World Cup technically) although RTWC had a dive button and the silly spins and other tricks. All Fifa games allow you to edit your own players though and most have classic teams included on the roster so nobody would ever buy an old one to play as old teams.

I appreciate this is pretty off-topic but I think I'm backing up Crash's first point in that nobody ever, ever buys a Fifa game more than a year old so I imagine EA stop accounting for them and write off the stock after a couple of years.

Wait, what? Companies HAVE released games for free years after they have sold them. Sometimes it's because they feel they have already received the most profit they can from the game, sometimes they do it to be nice, sometimes it's to promote an upcoming sequel, and sometimes it's a combination of reasons. Here's a simple example:

Rockstar Classics - Free Downloads

GTA1 and GTA2 were released waaaay back. They were very popular and resulted in a great deal of sales. Now, years later, they have been released to the public for free.