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Israel invades Gaza
Israel Gaza invasion | World news | guardian.co.uk
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What do you think is going to happen when you take away a people's rights, homes, families, and oppress them for years and years and years? Did Israel honestly expect them to just take it in the ass and be happy about it? |
The blame doesn't lie solely with Israel. The blame doesn't lie solely with Hamas.
This is part of a larger conflict that has been going on for thousands of years. Yes it's terrible that people are dying, but throwing blame around serves no purpose other than to ignite more sectarianism, more antipathy and more violence. That's the last thing the Middle East needs. |
The religious epicenters in the Middle East aren't much more than a blight to the entire world anymore, and simply emanate violence generation after generation.
I for one, wouldn't mind if that entire region mysteriously disappeared. |
If the Middle East were to disappear anytime soon it wouldn't be very mysterious.
Mushroom clouds do have a tendency to remove all mystery, though. |
My friend was driving back home for Christmas. He heard comments on radio shows in Arkansas that were pretty sad, shit like "Them jews need tah find Jesus already." The situation in the middle east, as Capo already said, is far more complex than "they're good" or "they're bad." There's no point breaking the situation down like that and then trying to have a discussion about it, Locke.
I would like to think we've advanced enough as people to be able to peacefully solve situations like this, but my time in the Middle East has taught me that those folks do not let go of the past. It's a miserable situation in light of that. I also have nothing meaningful to contribute to it beyond that sense of uncertainty. |
Well even though I believe the overall picture is well beyond the blame game, you can't exactly convince me that Hamas is a victim here. You state that Hamas wasn't going to take oppression but then you expect Israel just to sit back and continue to allow its citizens to subject to rocket fire on a daily basis.
Regardless of the reasons, Hamas was in the wrong by firing rockets. Living under oppression, or poverty or whatever else you want to come up with isn't a valid excuse for the tactic. They ignored the cease fire and now they and the people that allowed Hamas to stay in power are going to stuffer because of it. You don't pick a fight with the school bully then run and cry after he turns around and punches you in the face. I really hold little love for Israel but at this point Hamas will receive no sympathy either. |
I'll definitely echo the sentiment that this conflict has far too many facets to it that often get ignored/overlooked in these discussions. Neither side's leadership particularly deserving of any sympathy or praise, with both looking like they'll benefit from this operation in one way or another.
It's increasingly clear that a military solution on par with genocide won't resolve this, though that's been known for some time now. |
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Oh crap, the original should've been:
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I'm pretty sure being an asshole is the proper correlation you're looking for there, champ.
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Thousands of years. For what.
I say if they haven't learned how to live peacefully by now, let them shoot each other. The efforts have been made. The peace treaties and all that jive get put in place constantly, and SOMEONE violates it. There's no point anymore. It's awful awful AWFUL to say, but holy hell, what's it going to take? Maybe another 2,000 years....? |
Does anybody here honestly buy into the shit that Israel is spewing? Jesus fucking Christ. 600 dead. 600 fucking DEAD. I doubt that half of them are actually members of Hamas, and even fewer those that actually fired rockets. Jesus fucking Christ. Can I go and annex my neighbour's apartment, and then rape and torture his family before murdering them all? Is this the lesson we're fucking learning here.
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I am curious what evidence you have for these theoretical Crack Jewish Rape Squads.
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So basically you're saying that the assault on Gaza is totally cool because other countries have also been doing bad things elsewhere.
... And you talk about sheer levels of idiocy. |
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The point being that by marching ahead with the invasion of Iraq despite objections from various countries those involved implicitly opened the door to other countries following suit as long as it's all part of the guise of going after terrorists. Of course it's not OK, but that doesn't mean the precedent wasn't set. Try actually, you know, reading before you reach for that post button. |
LOL Israel just bombed a UN School rofl, killed like 14 kids lmao Israel isn't solely to blame kekekekekekeke.
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LOL I can make a shit post in this thread and totally get away with it
Because I'm awesome and you can't touch me |
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael1.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael2.jpg http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael3.jpg http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael4.jpg http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael5.jpg http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael6.jpg http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael7.jpg http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael8.jpg Israel is not at fault, Hamas is not at fault perhaps the answer lies somewhere in the middle? |
Go ahead and laugh at me/this question if you want, but... I guess having a joint Palestinian-Israeli country is out of the question?
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Yeah ok, I figured as much. Nevermind then.
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It wouldn't be out of the question if Jewish settlers were stopped from encroaching on Palestinian land and the Israelis themselves stopped electing hard right fascists like the Likkud.
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Mohammed the not-gay gays don't exist in our country roomate returns to find Raheem sitting alone on the couch.
"Where is Assan?" -Mohammed says this, sounding very gay "He fled the apartment." "Oh Raheem." *laughtrack* *end scene* |
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So the country is called Israel and it always was called Israel. And the Israelis are trying to get rid of the terrorists that are in Israel. And the Palestinians have a whole country called Palestine but they want to live in Israel? Why can't the Israelis just live in Israel, and the Palestinians just live in Palestine?
Sometimes I amaze myself with my genius. |
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First of all, the Palestinians were there first - the Israeli's were given the land after WW2 because we all felt really bad for them, the whole genocide thing and all, but didn't really think of the consequences of giving them land that someone else already lived in. The Israeli's keep on annexing more and more land, be it through illegal settlements, illegal occupations, etc... How would you honestly feel if you were living in your apartment, and your neighbour literally buldozed your wall and annexed your apartment, kicking you and your family out on the street (if he didn't run you over with the bulldozer in the first place). Would you just take it? Be like "Oh well, that's life?" Do you think that's fair? Do you think that they have no claim to land that was once rightfully theirs? It's not like they all just got up and left, and they claimed the land because of some fairy-tale book and "god" told them it was theirs - they lived there, they worked thier, they paid for and owned that land. http://www.gamingforce.org/forums/at...-palestine.jpg |
Nobody has a "claim" to any land, period. The only authority anyone has to own anything on the international stage is power. No nation or culture has any inherent right to own any piece of real estate.
Is it "fair"? No. Did it already happen? Yes. Is there even the slightest chance it will ever go back to the way it was? No. I do feel sympathy for these people but it seems almost obvious that some of them are spending their lives running headfirst into walls just for the sake of making a point. Who are these people who still feel this deep cultural connection to a CHUNK OF DIRT they lost 60 years ago? It's dirt! And not even particularly fertile dirt! |
You know, we raped and pillaged all of this land from the Indians, but they're not shooting rockets at us from their casinos.
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You know, I was going to make that exact same comparison.
And then I realized "Wait! The American Indians did fight back to the best of their ability for the first decades of occupation!" So I didn't use that comparison because it would've been stupid. |
And now we sorta learned to get along with each other today, even though there may still be some outstanding grievances that need addressing.
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Yeah, a good century and a half later we're basically chill but this shit takes time, even without taking into account the totally different cultures in play.
It is hard to imagine that the American Indians would have even cared much if we just called their land "America" but continued to let them live there however they liked. Their grievances weren't explicitly political. As has been demonstrated, people of Palestinian extraction live peaceably in Israeli territory all the time, so what is this fight about other than a name and a flag? |
Exactly, that is the comparison. They bitched about it for a while, but they weren't still doing border raids 60 years after we kicked them off their land.
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Yeah, but we can't say for certain whether this would have been the case had the American Indians had major access to rockets and other explosives as well as an inclination to blow themselves up. When you can strike with some degree of impunity, the temptation to keep resisting is much greater.
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Alcohol use is also a sin in Islam, so it's not like the Palestinians are just going to abuse themselves into complacency.
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And you'd think the Israelis had learned a thing or two about descrimination, but they sure love to descriminate against palestinians. Has anyone here ever been to Palestine?
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All I'm attacking is what you seemed to imply by pulling this out of nowhere in response to Locke's claims. That, basically, Israel shouldn't be called out on the current attacks because there is a precedent, and if anyone is to blame it's the U.S.A. and the U.K. That's shitty logic, because deciding whose fault it was in the first place isn't going to help stop the killing of civilians in Gaza, whereas international pressure on Israel actually might. Not to mention the invasion of a sovereign country by another sovereign country (situated on another continent!) under the pretence of overthrowing a dictatorship and removing the WMDs they allegedly own has actually very little in common with the situation at hand, which involves a country and neighbouring territories that share a 60-year history of conflicts and wars. |
Uh, the Israelis set the precedent for us when they invaded Lebanon to go after the PLO, which hurf durf gave rise to Hezbollah woops oh well.
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Stuff the two-state solution. I'm shit fed up hearing both sides wailing about it. Change Palestine's legal status, revise Israeli borders, have a THRILLION memoranda of understanding, and it will still be one militaristic siege state pitted against one semi-autonomous prison camp.
A single, binational state adopting both flags and secular governance is the only real long-term solution. And really, it's no less impossible than having these two coexisting peacefully as genuine, viable states. http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/5...n060731cv6.jpg |
I'm going to piss off a large amount of people, but like that's stopped me before.
The loss of Israel is only the fault of the Palestinians because they run one of the worst fucking cultures in the world. Being Arab fucking sucks, and poor state of the Arab nations is nothing but their own fault even though they continue to blame Western culture for their misfortunes. The only mildly successful Arab nations are ones that have close Western ties, AKA OIL. Lets assume for the moment that the Arab nations get their wish and Israel is pushed into the sea. Now what? Will gaining the land of Israel somehow create this wonderful Arab utopia? Fuck no, it will become just another Arab nation shithole that nobody wants to deal with. Fuck you Palestinians, you've done nothing to deserve your own country. |
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Yeah, I guess it sucks to be Arab because you don't speak a language that Gust RPGs get translated into.
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Israel is only successful because of its close Western ties, AKA JEWS.
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Oh my, your points. They are so, well, pointless. Israel has prospered, but they were given every possible opportunity to prosper. There's a reason people shake their heads about this when they know the history of the country. |
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The sense. You don't make any. |
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As have many modern Western nations have. The difference is Israel has also taken the initiative to properly distribute and invest in the aid they receive. They also developed a stable government and have become less and less reliant on foreign aid by developing their own industries. This has been the pattern for pretty much every successful nation in the past. And you're damn right they were given every possible opportunity, because they were willing to properly seize the opportunity which is more than can be said for basically every Arab nation on the planet. Iraq was just given a similar opportunity and they have pissed it all away. |
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And if by every possible hand up for the Arabs, you mean getting fucked by the British and then getting fucked by the Americans. Sure. Ever heard of Dubai? You really want to play that "arabs are all poor niggers" card, dumbfuck? And Iraq was given the same opportunity? Which opportunity would that be? The one where they get their country carpet bombed and then they're just expected to suddenly forget about centuries worth of internal conflict within arbitrarily created borders laid down by the English that forced together two groups that loathe one another? You're a joke. |
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Oh but the Arab nations want to continue to blame western culture for holding them back. I mean its just could not possibility be that Arab culture is holding itself back. No need for reform here! If they can wipe Western culture off the planet Arab culture will prosper again! |
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Man, I don't even like the middle east, and you're winning me over to their side just by being so blatantly fucking wrong about all your facts. |
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And the most of the richest Arab nations in the world are also some of the worst places to live in the world. Just because your government makes billions of dollars on oil doesn't make them an example of prosperity. The riches Arab nations of the world have some of the worst living conditions in the world, they treat their citizens like shit and offer nothing to the rest of world. The UAE is an exception, but funny how they have the most 'Western-like' culture out of the Arab states. They are also gradually moving to a democratic state as they become more involved in world politics and and the world market. The UAE is the perfect example of reform made by an Arab state to integrate into the rest of the world. That nation has become more prosperous as they forgo more and more of the traditional Arab values. |
Israel sure choose a fine time to go on a fucking rampage. Its wildly disproportionate, and unnecessary. Its not as if we don't already have a bunch of bullshit that we had to deal with, and now this.
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Oh yes. You're a winner. |
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And obviously it's not all Palestinians. Just the ones that have the power to do the things they're doing, like Hezbollah. |
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I've been reconsidering lately, though. Thinking about it, isn't the other team just as responsible for the eventual outcome? That made a lot more sense to me, and so I try to see the whole scope of things when going over a game in my head. I find it gives me a more accurate view of how things really are. |
Israel's superior culture in action:
lmbo bitch got owned fate of all Arabs :cool: |
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And I’d hazard to say that many Arab nations are far more prosperous then many of the western ones you hold with high regard. Get your head out of your ass, you ass out of your momma’s house, and take a look at the real fucking word – not the one you’re taught at the klan meetings. Quote:
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Listen Cetra, put your ignorance, bigotry, and fucking KKK buddies aside for lets say, 10 seconds here, and lets do a little exercise. Ok? Can you do that? I know it’s scary to let go of these things, but I promise it is OK. Really. I do. Ok, now that you’re ready, imagine yourself living in your family’s apartment, doing whatever it is that you do that makes you happy, and then all of a sudden, BANGO BOOMO SHIZZAM, the neighbor crashes through the shared wall, killing your parents who were sitting at the table and eating lunch. Your neighbor looks at you, smiling, and exclaims, “I’m just expanding my apartment, I found that it was too small. Thanks for your apartment!” and goes on to annex everything that you owned – leaving you to the streets with barely the clothes on your back. How would you feel? Is that giving you “every opportunity” to prosper? Really? |
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Locke, enemy of extremists everywhere. |
Hey, if you look closely, it's Rabbi's burning the flag, not me :)
*Sent the wrong message, obviously* |
The fuck?
If I put a Klan lynching in my sig I couldn't just disassociate myself from it by saying I'm not the one lynching people. If you're going to use your avatar space to promote inflammatory attitudes, have the courage to stand by it. Obviously I don't agree with a damned thing Cetra has said here but you're a massive hypocrite without any strength of conviction. |
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I do have to wonder what the chances are that Hamas and Hezbollah really didn't fire the rockets, and the latest ones are just a result of some pockets of people who can't go a few months without explosives. |
Obviously I was joking, as noted by the :) at the end. Can't you guys see a little humour in the situation?
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No, I do not see the humor in bombs and rockets.
Not very much. |
Oh you know what I mean. Bleh.
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No, nobody can understand what you mean because you keep typing with your giant shrieking vagina instead of your hands.
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Anyways...
To get back on topic, it looks like the UN is halting aid missions into Gaza as the Israeli's have been attacking their convoys. UN halts aid to Gaza, citing Israeli attacks on staff "Sure, we'll let aid come in for a few hours every other day, we'll even stop shooting at the 'rabs for you, but now we'll just practice with you!" |
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National borders were arbitrarily drawn, dividing similar peoples and creating artificial distinctions. Infrastructure was built that was designed to prevent regional trading (all the railroads led to ports). Farmers were forced to grow cash crops that destroyed the soil and left them without sustenance. Brutal regimes killed hundreds of thousands. Of course, that was 50+ years ago. Then the IMF and World Bank came around and gave crippling loans to desperate governments, knowing that they would never be able to afford the interest. I'm not a post-modernist, but to say that Africans and Arabs don't have culture as defined by your arbitrary definition is simply fucking retarded. Also, let's forget entirely about Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Jordan and all the other Arab nations that enjoy relatively high standards of living with less of the religious fundamentalism. Even Iran, the predominantly Shiite outsider hated by Arabs is lumped into the group and given a bad rep when most of the population is quite progressive, but ruled by Ayatollah's. oh whatever. lol at the above SHOW THEM MOZLEMS WHOS BOSS edit: MUTHAFUCKAAAASSSS http://design.flowingpens.com/blog/i...srael_flag.jpg |
Wear my heart on my sleeve.
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Israel's unrelenting attack on Gaza is so unjustified. But this thread brings to light what Israel's true intentions for the invasion may be: oil reserves off Gaza's coastline.
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Well, although that thread is from a conspiracy forum, it refers to multiple articles from reputable news sources to back up its claim. I could have just provided a link to one of those news sources, but I think providing a collective of sources from that thread would be more helpful.
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Israel could violate Gaza's economic exploitation zone and nobody would care. I'm not even sure if the PLA is entitled to those kind of rights.
Israel invaded Gaza to time the post-Christmas news cycle and Bush leaving office. As much as Obama is probably going to support Israel as much as every other president he's still a wild card so Israel is doing their best to damage Hamas to the point where it'll take them years to recover. |
There was a particularly poignant piece on Al-Jazeera earlier where a Norweigan doctor working in Gaza was on the phone talking about the situation. There's been no power for a fortnight now, 33 ambulance crewmen have been killed trying to help people, the Israelis seem to be just indiscriminately dropping bombs on civilians and he reckons they've barely hurt Hamas at all.
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Israel is hurting HAMAS. A HAMAS higher up can't take a shit without Mossad knowing about it. Problem is for every HAMAS they kill you're also counting about 4 kids 8 women and 3 men. v:)v
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I read an opinion piece today by Mona Charen (a neocon rabble-rouser, but still) the nugget of truth nestled in there was that Israel is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Fundamentalist papers and the Hamas government are more likely to see Israel's concessions as signs of weakness than as gestures of goodwill.
Now given, they haven't been as discriminating as they should be, but with Hamas' tendency to use civilian structures as bunkers, is there a way that Israel can defend itself without drawing international ire? |
Not really, which is what I going for before.
Even that's not the entirety of it, though. For Israel, the ire of the international community is nothing compared to that of the Palestinians living in all this. By invading Gaza to rid themselves of Hamas the Israelis have only united and inspired Palestinian youth to act, effectively swelling Hamas' as-yet-untouched ranks. But again, what would you have they do? Sit idly by as missiles explode on their own land? It's a hell of a situation, that's for sure. |
And one of the most annoying things about all of this is that neither side will stop the violence. Both sides have turned down the UN's much called for cease-fire, saying that they will not stop until the other side stops. Both sides want to have the last word in this fight, and I'm not sure if peace is even going to be possible at the rate Israel and Hamas leaders are going.
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hmmmmmmmmmmm hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmhhhhhhmmmmmm People talk about HAMAS "hiding in civilian centers" like they should stand out in the middle of a field and wait for Israeli F-16s to line up the laser designators. These are weekend warriors to begin with so they're already embedded in the civilian population as they're, durp durr, civilians. Cry and moan and gnash your teeth about how HAMAS uses human shield tactics all you want but this is how asymmetric wars are fought, it's just that in this particular instance the IDF doesn't give a shit about human shields. The "best" route for Israel has already been chosen, since Israeli policy makers have committed themselves to crippling HAMAS and ensuring their defeat in the Palestinian civil war. If Israel was looking for a long term solution to sectarian violence meted out by unguided rockets that kill a handfull of people a year their best course would have been to do nothing. http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...bingflower.gif |
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Kadima isn’t perfect, I’ll concede that, but they’ve been more willing than Hamas to pursue peace. No other country would absorb rocket attacks without reacting for as long as Israel did. I don't know what reality you live in if you think people are going to tolerate their government not acting when rockets are being launched daily near their homes. EDIT: Your cartoon is fucked. Think about it, if you’re entrusted to defend your country, and you see the enemy launching rockets dangerously close to civilian areas, which are killing your own people, what are you going to do? Are you just going to sit by and let it happen? Furthermore, are you really going to have any sympathy for someone who knowingly congregates near a place where rockets are being launched into Israel? You know it’s going to be a target, so why are you staying there? It’s not that hard to hear rockets being launched from your backyard. Get the fuck out if you’re too chicken shit to throw them off your land. |
Hamas isn't a Gaza separatist movement, numbnuts.
But then I'm debating political nuance with a dbzatar. |
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Factoring in the ground force that's firing on aid workers, we can see it's unlikely fleeing would get you anything other than a quick trip to the grave. |
Look, geopolitical realities are no excuse when you're living next to terrorists. Maybe if you don't want to get bombed by the IDF you should leave Gaza.
*gets shot at IDF checkpoint* |
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Edit: http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/4...2897/wrong.jpg |
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Not like Israel has left Gaza alone, mind. There's still the economic strangulation and fun stuff like low-flying Israeli jets creating sonic booms that cause health problems like damaging children's ears. Quote:
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I haven't really been reading the arguments in this thread, but I read an article the other day that I thought was quite well done and I thought it might be appreciated here.
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Spot on article if I may say so.
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The only democratic nation in a region filled with Moon God worshiping mud bloods displays its superior culture by banning arab parties.
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As for the disengagement plan, at least Israel has made gestures towards peace. I’m sure Israel is very sorry they couldn’t do more for the Palestinians when they’ve been so committed to the peace process since 2001. Can you remind me how many times Hamas has extended some kind of peace gesture towards Israel? Quote:
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The US embargo on Cuba is the most pointless gesture of US foreign policy on the books, and outlasted its relevancy when Soviet missiles left the island. Of course you'd equivocate one of our dumbest policies with Israeli apartheid.
Saying that Israel has made gestures towards peace is also a fucking laugh and a half. Israel violates its peace accords regularly and Jewish settlements still continue to grow while Palestinians are forced into smaller and smaller ghettoes. Palestinians have no political route to peace since the PLO sold out to European corporate interests, and now Arab Israelis can't even affect Israeli policy because their political parties are banned. You can't just leave Gaza, they call it a ghetto because people can't escape. I'd like to hear your suggestions about where exactly the Palestinians in Gaza CAN go that's safe keeping in mind the IDF already bombed a clearly marked UN SCHOOL FOR CHILDREN. Additional Spam:
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Additional Spam: Israelis demonstrate the danger of Hamas rocket attacks. Additional Spam: Joe The Plumber asks for the REAL STORY from the only brown reporter. |
Demands grow for Gaza war crimes investigation:
source I find the last few paragraphs particularly interesting. I'm not too familiar with the process, but is there a way that Ehud Olmert and his defense minister can be held responsible for their war crimes? What is the probability that it will happen? |
Now that Israel has withdrawn from Gaza as a homemaking present for Obama let's look at the deadly toll caused by Hamas's Qassam rockets:
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