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-   -   Israel invades Gaza (http://www.gamingforce.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35900)

Locke Jan 3, 2009 03:31 PM

Israel invades Gaza
 
Israel Gaza invasion | World news | guardian.co.uk

Quote:

Israeli tanks and troops have launched a ground invasion to reoccupy parts of the northern Gaza strip as the military escalated its assault on the Palestinian enclave in an attempt to curb Hamas rocket attacks on Israel.

With Israel's chief military spokesman warning that the attack would take "many long days", the Israeli Cabinet also authorised the call of thousands more reservists. As Israeli tanks and infantry crossed into northern Gaza reports began to emerge of fighting between Hamas and Israeli troops. The invasion comes after Hamas warned Israeli forces entering Gaza faced a "black destiny" and vowed that they would be defeated.

Palestinian witnesses said a small column of military vehicles moved across the border firing tracer bullets after dark. The Israeli army said the assault is intended to take control of territory in the north of the Gaza strip from where Hamas fires its rockets.

"The objective is to destroy the Hamas terror infrastructure in the area of operations," said a spokeswoman, Major Avital Leibovitch. "We are going to take some of the launch areas used by Hamas."

However, Israel said this is not the start of a reoccupation of Gaza.

Hours earlier, an intense Israeli artillery assault along the border, apparently intended to drive away enemy forces and clear mines or roadside bombs, cleared the way for the incursion.

The ground offensive followed a day of heavy air, sea and artillery bombardment of Gaza that left at least 11 people, including children, dead and dozens wounded when an Israeli missile strike hit a mosque in Beit Lahiya as worshippers were praying inside.

The death toll, as the Israeli assault on Gaza entered its second week, rose to about 450 Palestinians, about one third of them civilians or policemen, with four Israelis killed by Hamas rocket fire.

As diplomatic pressure for a truce gained momentum, the exiled leader of Hamas, Khaled Meshaal, rejected a ceasefire in Gaza until Israel agrees to end its three-year blockade of the territory which has caused economic collapse and widespread hardship.

The latest of more than 700 Israeli aircraft strikes over the past week also killed another senior Hamas official, Abu Zakaria al-Jamal, a leader of its armed wing.

Israeli forces attacked the American school in Gaza, killing a guard. The Israeli military said the school, which has no links to the US government, was being used to store Hamas weapons and to shelter its fighters.

But the continued Israeli assault did not stop Hamas from firing rockets. Fifteen hit Israel yesterday, one of which lightly wounded two people when it hit an eight-storey building in Ashdod. Another rocket struck an empty house in Ashkelon, setting it on fire.

As diplomatic efforts continued to reestablish the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas that collapsed last month, Meshaal said in a televised address that the organisation had been contacted by European and Arab countries about a truce.

Egypt says it has begun exploratory talks with Hamas.

President George Bush said in his weekly radio address that Hamas must take the initiative to end the fighting by halting its rocket fire into Israel.

"Another one-way ceasefire that leads to rocket attacks on Israel is not acceptable," he said. "There must be monitoring mechanisms in place to help ensure the smuggling of weapons to terrorist groups in Gaza comes to an end... I urge all parties to pressure Hamas to turn away from terror and to support legitimate Palestinian leaders working for peace."

But Meshaal said Hamas would not agree to a truce until Israel stops its attacks and lifts the blockade of Gaza.

"Our demand is clear – that aggression should end immediately. The siege must be ended and the crossings must all be opened," he said. "We will not break, we will not surrender or give in to your conditions."

Meshaal also warned that the organisation would fight an Israeli ground assault if it comes.

"We are ready for the challenge: this battle was imposed on us and we are confident we will achieve victory because we have made our preparations," he said.

Meshaal said Hamas will attempt to capture Israeli combatants and hold them prisoner alongside Gilad Shalit, the soldier who was snatched from his armoured vehicle and taken in to Gaza in June 2006. "If you commit a foolish act by raiding Gaza, who knows – we may have a second or a third or a fourth Shalit," Meshaal said.

A ground offensive carries great risks for the Israeli military and the country's political leaders, particularly the defence minister and Labour party leader, Ehud Barak. His support in the polls in the run-up to next month's general election has risen sharply over his handling of the assault on Gaza. But if Israeli military casualties were to rise sharply, or soldiers were to be captured, as Meshaal threatens, public support for the war is likely to ebb away.

Still, Barak and the prime minister, Ehud Olmert, may feel they have little choice but to escalate if the air bombardment continues to fail to stop Hamas rocket fire. The pressure for more action is likely to intensify further if there are more Israeli civilian deaths.

Meanwhile, the head of the Arab league, Amr Moussa, said he was astonished at claims by the Israeli foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, that there is no humanitarian crisis in the densely populated Gaza strip.

"I am greatly surprised by, and I reject, the words of the Israeli foreign minister, who asks: 'Is there a humanitarian crisis? There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza,'" he said. "This is an astonishing thing, that after more than 450 victims and more than 2,000 injured... then it is said there is no humanitarian crisis.

"There may be those that sympathise with such a remark. This is something we must condemn, and we must say there is a major humanitarian crisis."

The UN said there is growing shortages of basic foodstuffs and fresh water because of damage to the infrastructure. The main power plant has shut down. Fuel for cooking is no longer available.
When is this going to stop? Hamas kills what, 20 people in 4 years, and Israel kills 200 in an afternoon - and that's par for the fucking course.

What do you think is going to happen when you take away a people's rights, homes, families, and oppress them for years and years and years? Did Israel honestly expect them to just take it in the ass and be happy about it?

YO PITTSBURGH MIKE HERE Jan 3, 2009 05:02 PM

The blame doesn't lie solely with Israel. The blame doesn't lie solely with Hamas.

This is part of a larger conflict that has been going on for thousands of years. Yes it's terrible that people are dying, but throwing blame around serves no purpose other than to ignite more sectarianism, more antipathy and more violence. That's the last thing the Middle East needs.

Zephyrin Jan 3, 2009 05:22 PM

The religious epicenters in the Middle East aren't much more than a blight to the entire world anymore, and simply emanate violence generation after generation.

I for one, wouldn't mind if that entire region mysteriously disappeared.

YO PITTSBURGH MIKE HERE Jan 3, 2009 05:27 PM

If the Middle East were to disappear anytime soon it wouldn't be very mysterious.

Mushroom clouds do have a tendency to remove all mystery, though.

Rotorblade Jan 3, 2009 06:01 PM

My friend was driving back home for Christmas. He heard comments on radio shows in Arkansas that were pretty sad, shit like "Them jews need tah find Jesus already." The situation in the middle east, as Capo already said, is far more complex than "they're good" or "they're bad." There's no point breaking the situation down like that and then trying to have a discussion about it, Locke.

I would like to think we've advanced enough as people to be able to peacefully solve situations like this, but my time in the Middle East has taught me that those folks do not let go of the past. It's a miserable situation in light of that. I also have nothing meaningful to contribute to it beyond that sense of uncertainty.

Cetra Jan 3, 2009 06:32 PM

Well even though I believe the overall picture is well beyond the blame game, you can't exactly convince me that Hamas is a victim here. You state that Hamas wasn't going to take oppression but then you expect Israel just to sit back and continue to allow its citizens to subject to rocket fire on a daily basis.

Regardless of the reasons, Hamas was in the wrong by firing rockets. Living under oppression, or poverty or whatever else you want to come up with isn't a valid excuse for the tactic. They ignored the cease fire and now they and the people that allowed Hamas to stay in power are going to stuffer because of it. You don't pick a fight with the school bully then run and cry after he turns around and punches you in the face.

I really hold little love for Israel but at this point Hamas will receive no sympathy either.

Metal Sphere Jan 3, 2009 07:31 PM

I'll definitely echo the sentiment that this conflict has far too many facets to it that often get ignored/overlooked in these discussions. Neither side's leadership particularly deserving of any sympathy or praise, with both looking like they'll benefit from this operation in one way or another.


It's increasingly clear that a military solution on par with genocide won't resolve this, though that's been known for some time now.

Zephyrin Jan 3, 2009 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal Sphere (Post 671192)
It's increasingly clear that a military solution on par with genocide won't resolve this.

Um, quite honestly, genocide is probably the only thing that will ever stop this shit from happening.

Metal Sphere Jan 3, 2009 09:40 PM

Oh crap, the original should've been:

Quote:

It's increasingly clear that a military solution, short of on par with genocide, won't resolve this
But you're right, and definitely not the only one whose come to a similar conclusion. Of course everyone hopes it doesn't have to come to that.

Misogynyst Gynecologist Jan 3, 2009 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephyrin (Post 671198)
Um, quite honestly, genocide is probably the only thing that will ever stop this shit from happening.

Putting my hands over my ears works much better and costs much less.

Guru Jan 3, 2009 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rotardblase (Post 671177)
My friend was driving back home for Christmas. He heard comments on radio shows in Arkansas that were pretty sad, shit like "Them jews need tah find Jesus already."

Well it should be said...belief in Jesus does tend to have a negative correlation to mass genocide. But are the negatives of finding Jesus going to counterbalance the negatives of not? HMMM....

Jurassic Park Chocolate Raptor Jan 4, 2009 02:50 AM

I'm pretty sure being an asshole is the proper correlation you're looking for there, champ.

knkwzrd Jan 4, 2009 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capo (Post 671167)
The blame doesn't lie solely with Israel. The blame doesn't lie solely with Hamas.

This is part of a larger conflict that has been going on for thousands of years. Yes it's terrible that people are dying, but throwing blame around serves no purpose other than to ignite more sectarianism, more antipathy and more violence. That's the last thing the Middle East needs.

You're right, the blame doesn't lie solely on either party, but it does rest pretty goddam heavily on the both of them. It doesn't help to throw blame on just one of them, but I sure don't see a problem with piling that shit on equally. Most people learn to share in kindergarten for fuck's sake.

I poked it and it made a sad sound Jan 4, 2009 03:07 AM

Thousands of years. For what.

I say if they haven't learned how to live peacefully by now, let them shoot each other.

The efforts have been made. The peace treaties and all that jive get put in place constantly, and SOMEONE violates it. There's no point anymore. It's awful awful AWFUL to say, but holy hell, what's it going to take?

Maybe another 2,000 years....?

Locke Jan 7, 2009 12:19 AM

Does anybody here honestly buy into the shit that Israel is spewing? Jesus fucking Christ. 600 dead. 600 fucking DEAD. I doubt that half of them are actually members of Hamas, and even fewer those that actually fired rockets. Jesus fucking Christ. Can I go and annex my neighbour's apartment, and then rape and torture his family before murdering them all? Is this the lesson we're fucking learning here.

The unmovable stubborn Jan 7, 2009 12:20 AM

I am curious what evidence you have for these theoretical Crack Jewish Rape Squads.

No. Hard Pass. Jan 7, 2009 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangalin (Post 672124)
I am curious what evidence you have for these theoretical Crack Jewish Rape Squads.

http://orangecow.org/pythonet/pics/ottoshocked.jpg

OmagnusPrime Jan 7, 2009 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke (Post 672123)
Does anybody here honestly buy into the shit that Israel is spewing? Jesus fucking Christ. 600 dead. 600 fucking DEAD. I doubt that half of them are actually members of Hamas, and even fewer those that actually fired rockets. Jesus fucking Christ. Can I go and annex my neighbour's apartment, and then rape and torture his family before murdering them all? Is this the lesson we're fucking learning here.

Ignoring the sheer levels of idiocy on display here, I think you'll find that that precedent was somewhat set when a US-led coalition stormed into Iraq under the pretence of a pre-emptive strike against terrorists. If you're going to be jumping up and down shouting at people, shout at the US, shout at the UK, and anyone else stupid enough to get involved in Iraq.

Franky Mikey Jan 7, 2009 04:07 AM

So basically you're saying that the assault on Gaza is totally cool because other countries have also been doing bad things elsewhere.

...

And you talk about sheer levels of idiocy.

OmagnusPrime Jan 7, 2009 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ♪^___^♪ (Post 672163)
So basically you're saying that the assault on Gaza is totally cool because other countries have also been doing bad things elsewhere.

Take a look at my statement, tell me where I said it was OK. The quick answer to that is, I did not. Because it's not OK. What I actually said was, the precedent for such an action was rather set by the invasion of Iraq.

The point being that by marching ahead with the invasion of Iraq despite objections from various countries those involved implicitly opened the door to other countries following suit as long as it's all part of the guise of going after terrorists. Of course it's not OK, but that doesn't mean the precedent wasn't set.

Try actually, you know, reading before you reach for that post button.

Bradylama Jan 7, 2009 04:38 AM

LOL Israel just bombed a UN School rofl, killed like 14 kids lmao Israel isn't solely to blame kekekekekekeke.

Bigblah Jan 7, 2009 04:48 AM

LOL I can make a shit post in this thread and totally get away with it

Because I'm awesome and you can't touch me

Bradylama Jan 7, 2009 04:50 AM

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael1.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael2.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael3.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael4.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael5.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael6.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael7.jpg

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...htoisrael8.jpg

Israel is not at fault, Hamas is not at fault

perhaps the answer lies somewhere in the middle?

Dark Nation Jan 7, 2009 04:55 AM

Go ahead and laugh at me/this question if you want, but... I guess having a joint Palestinian-Israeli country is out of the question?

No. Hard Pass. Jan 7, 2009 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Nation (Post 672176)
Go ahead and laugh at me/this question if you want, but... I guess having a joint Palestinian-Israeli country is out of the question?

Oh, it would be easy. And for our next trick we'd make Sunni and Shi'a share a hotel room together. Just for kicks.

Dark Nation Jan 7, 2009 05:02 AM

Yeah ok, I figured as much. Nevermind then.

Bradylama Jan 7, 2009 05:05 AM

It wouldn't be out of the question if Jewish settlers were stopped from encroaching on Palestinian land and the Israelis themselves stopped electing hard right fascists like the Likkud.

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

YouTube Video

Tails Jan 7, 2009 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denicalis (Post 672179)
Oh, it would be easy. And for our next trick we'd make Sunni and Shi'a share a hotel room together. Just for kicks.

Fuck. This would be the best comedy sitcom ever. Can we make this happen?

Bradylama Jan 7, 2009 05:30 AM

Mohammed the not-gay gays don't exist in our country roomate returns to find Raheem sitting alone on the couch.

"Where is Assan?" -Mohammed says this, sounding very gay

"He fled the apartment."

"Oh Raheem." *laughtrack* *end scene*

datschge Jan 7, 2009 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Nation (Post 672176)
I guess having a joint Palestinian-Israeli country is out of the question?

Well, one could argue Israel itself is just that already (with its own set of issues).

Guru Jan 7, 2009 10:15 AM

So the country is called Israel and it always was called Israel. And the Israelis are trying to get rid of the terrorists that are in Israel. And the Palestinians have a whole country called Palestine but they want to live in Israel? Why can't the Israelis just live in Israel, and the Palestinians just live in Palestine?

Sometimes I amaze myself with my genius.

Locke Jan 7, 2009 11:53 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

So the country is called Israel and it always was called Israel. And the Israelis are trying to get rid of the terrorists that are in Israel. And the Palestinians have a whole country called Palestine but they want to live in Israel? Why can't the Israelis just live in Israel, and the Palestinians just live in Palestine?
If only it were that simple...

First of all, the Palestinians were there first - the Israeli's were given the land after WW2 because we all felt really bad for them, the whole genocide thing and all, but didn't really think of the consequences of giving them land that someone else already lived in. The Israeli's keep on annexing more and more land, be it through illegal settlements, illegal occupations, etc...

How would you honestly feel if you were living in your apartment, and your neighbour literally buldozed your wall and annexed your apartment, kicking you and your family out on the street (if he didn't run you over with the bulldozer in the first place). Would you just take it? Be like "Oh well, that's life?"

Do you think that's fair? Do you think that they have no claim to land that was once rightfully theirs? It's not like they all just got up and left, and they claimed the land because of some fairy-tale book and "god" told them it was theirs - they lived there, they worked thier, they paid for and owned that land.

http://www.gamingforce.org/forums/at...-palestine.jpg

The unmovable stubborn Jan 7, 2009 12:37 PM

Nobody has a "claim" to any land, period. The only authority anyone has to own anything on the international stage is power. No nation or culture has any inherent right to own any piece of real estate.

Is it "fair"? No.

Did it already happen? Yes.

Is there even the slightest chance it will ever go back to the way it was? No.

I do feel sympathy for these people but it seems almost obvious that some of them are spending their lives running headfirst into walls just for the sake of making a point.

Who are these people who still feel this deep cultural connection to a CHUNK OF DIRT they lost 60 years ago? It's dirt! And not even particularly fertile dirt!

RacinReaver Jan 7, 2009 03:47 PM

You know, we raped and pillaged all of this land from the Indians, but they're not shooting rockets at us from their casinos.

The unmovable stubborn Jan 7, 2009 03:49 PM

You know, I was going to make that exact same comparison.

And then I realized "Wait! The American Indians did fight back to the best of their ability for the first decades of occupation!"

So I didn't use that comparison because it would've been stupid.

Dullenplain Jan 7, 2009 04:03 PM

And now we sorta learned to get along with each other today, even though there may still be some outstanding grievances that need addressing.

The unmovable stubborn Jan 7, 2009 04:08 PM

Yeah, a good century and a half later we're basically chill but this shit takes time, even without taking into account the totally different cultures in play.

It is hard to imagine that the American Indians would have even cared much if we just called their land "America" but continued to let them live there however they liked. Their grievances weren't explicitly political. As has been demonstrated, people of Palestinian extraction live peaceably in Israeli territory all the time, so what is this fight about other than a name and a flag?

RacinReaver Jan 7, 2009 04:09 PM

Exactly, that is the comparison. They bitched about it for a while, but they weren't still doing border raids 60 years after we kicked them off their land.

The unmovable stubborn Jan 7, 2009 04:12 PM

Yeah, but we can't say for certain whether this would have been the case had the American Indians had major access to rockets and other explosives as well as an inclination to blow themselves up. When you can strike with some degree of impunity, the temptation to keep resisting is much greater.

Bradylama Jan 7, 2009 04:34 PM

Alcohol use is also a sin in Islam, so it's not like the Palestinians are just going to abuse themselves into complacency.

The unmovable stubborn Jan 7, 2009 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradylama (Post 672361)
Alcohol use is also a sin in Islam

Yeah, but so is suicide :shrug:

Locke Jan 7, 2009 04:41 PM

And you'd think the Israelis had learned a thing or two about descrimination, but they sure love to descriminate against palestinians. Has anyone here ever been to Palestine?

Bradylama Jan 7, 2009 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangalin (Post 672363)
Yeah, but so is suicide :shrug:

Suicide rendered in glorious Jihad is a better alternative to being a Palestinian.

Franky Mikey Jan 7, 2009 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmagnusPrime (Post 672164)
Take a look at my statement, tell me where I said it was OK. The quick answer to that is, I did not. Because it's not OK. What I actually said was, the precedent for such an action was rather set by the invasion of Iraq.

The point being that by marching ahead with the invasion of Iraq despite objections from various countries those involved implicitly opened the door to other countries following suit as long as it's all part of the guise of going after terrorists. Of course it's not OK, but that doesn't mean the precedent wasn't set.

Try actually, you know, reading before you reach for that post button.

I get your point. The invasion of Iraq has set a precedent. Please don't be condescending.

All I'm attacking is what you seemed to imply by pulling this out of nowhere in response to Locke's claims. That, basically, Israel shouldn't be called out on the current attacks because there is a precedent, and if anyone is to blame it's the U.S.A. and the U.K. That's shitty logic, because deciding whose fault it was in the first place isn't going to help stop the killing of civilians in Gaza, whereas international pressure on Israel actually might.

Not to mention the invasion of a sovereign country by another sovereign country (situated on another continent!) under the pretence of overthrowing a dictatorship and removing the WMDs they allegedly own has actually very little in common with the situation at hand, which involves a country and neighbouring territories that share a 60-year history of conflicts and wars.

Bradylama Jan 7, 2009 05:43 PM

Uh, the Israelis set the precedent for us when they invaded Lebanon to go after the PLO, which hurf durf gave rise to Hezbollah woops oh well.

Cal Jan 7, 2009 11:18 PM

Stuff the two-state solution. I'm shit fed up hearing both sides wailing about it. Change Palestine's legal status, revise Israeli borders, have a THRILLION memoranda of understanding, and it will still be one militaristic siege state pitted against one semi-autonomous prison camp.

A single, binational state adopting both flags and secular governance is the only real long-term solution. And really, it's no less impossible than having these two coexisting peacefully as genuine, viable states.


http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/5...n060731cv6.jpg

Cetra Jan 8, 2009 12:47 AM

I'm going to piss off a large amount of people, but like that's stopped me before.

The loss of Israel is only the fault of the Palestinians because they run one of the worst fucking cultures in the world. Being Arab fucking sucks, and poor state of the Arab nations is nothing but their own fault even though they continue to blame Western culture for their misfortunes. The only mildly successful Arab nations are ones that have close Western ties, AKA OIL.

Lets assume for the moment that the Arab nations get their wish and Israel is pushed into the sea. Now what? Will gaining the land of Israel somehow create this wonderful Arab utopia? Fuck no, it will become just another Arab nation shithole that nobody wants to deal with. Fuck you Palestinians, you've done nothing to deserve your own country.

No. Hard Pass. Jan 8, 2009 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672486)
I'm going to piss off a large amount of people, but like that's stopped me before.

The loss of Israel is only the fault of the Palestinians because they run one of the worst fucking cultures in the world. Being Arab fucking sucks, and poor state of the Arab nations is nothing but their own fault even though they continue to blame Western culture for their misfortunes. The only mildly successful Arab nations are ones that have close Western ties, AKA OIL.

Lets assume for the moment that the Arab nations get their wish and Israel is pushed into the sea. Now what? Will gaining the land of Israel somehow create this wonderful Arab utopia? Fuck no, it will become just another Arab nation shithole that nobody wants to deal with. Fuck you Palestinians, you've done nothing to deserve your own country.

As opposed to the Israelis that have done... what exactly?

Jurassic Park Chocolate Raptor Jan 8, 2009 01:07 AM

Yeah, I guess it sucks to be Arab because you don't speak a language that Gust RPGs get translated into.

Paco Jan 8, 2009 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672486)
The loss of Israel is only the fault of the Palestinians because they run one of the worst fucking cultures in the world.

I'm a little curious as to what your system of measuring the worth of "culture" is. I absolutely want to know.

Cetra Jan 8, 2009 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denicalis (Post 672490)
As opposed to the Israelis that have done... what exactly?

How about a self sustaining government and economy that can actually feed its people? Active participants of the global market? Israel has the 21st most prosperous economy in the world and an active business and industry.

Bigblah Jan 8, 2009 01:13 AM

Israel is only successful because of its close Western ties, AKA JEWS.

No. Hard Pass. Jan 8, 2009 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672493)
How about a self sustaining government and economy that can actually feed its people? Active participants of the global market? Israel has the 21st most prosperous economy in the world and an active business and industry.

Israel has massive amounts of economic and military support from certain foreign powers, now don't they.

Oh my, your points. They are so, well, pointless.

Israel has prospered, but they were given every possible opportunity to prosper. There's a reason people shake their heads about this when they know the history of the country.

Cetra Jan 8, 2009 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encephalon (Post 672492)
I'm a little curious as to what your system of measuring the worth of "culture" is. I absolutely want to know.

Culture as in the resulting social bodies developed out of the culture. As Western nations have been developed out of Western culture, its values, its beliefs, its practices.

No. Hard Pass. Jan 8, 2009 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672497)
Culture as in the resulting social bodies developed out of the culture. As Western nations have been developed out of Western culture, its values, its beliefs, its practices.

Culture as in the resulting effects of culture?

The sense. You don't make any.

Cetra Jan 8, 2009 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denicalis (Post 672496)
Israel has massive amounts of economic and military support from certain foreign powers, now don't they.

Oh my, your points. They are so, well, pointless.

Israel has prospered, but they were given every possible opportunity to prosper. There's a reason people shake their heads about this when they know the history of the country.


As have many modern Western nations have. The difference is Israel has also taken the initiative to properly distribute and invest in the aid they receive. They also developed a stable government and have become less and less reliant on foreign aid by developing their own industries. This has been the pattern for pretty much every successful nation in the past.

And you're damn right they were given every possible opportunity, because they were willing to properly seize the opportunity which is more than can be said for basically every Arab nation on the planet. Iraq was just given a similar opportunity and they have pissed it all away.

No. Hard Pass. Jan 8, 2009 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672500)
As have many modern Western nations have. The difference is Israel has also taken the initiative to properly distribute and invest in the aid they receive. They also developed a stable government and have become less and less reliant on foreign aid by developing their own industries. This has been the pattern for pretty much every successful nation in the past.

And you're damn right they were given every possible opportunity, because they were willing to properly seize the opportunity which is more than can be said for basically every Arab nation on the planet. Iraq was just given a similar opportunity and they have pissed it all away.

So... now the definition of stable is in a constant state of war for 60 years? And if by less reliant on foreign aid, you mean requiring a constant flow of military technology and protection.

And if by every possible hand up for the Arabs, you mean getting fucked by the British and then getting fucked by the Americans. Sure. Ever heard of Dubai? You really want to play that "arabs are all poor niggers" card, dumbfuck?

And Iraq was given the same opportunity? Which opportunity would that be? The one where they get their country carpet bombed and then they're just expected to suddenly forget about centuries worth of internal conflict within arbitrarily created borders laid down by the English that forced together two groups that loathe one another?

You're a joke.

Paco Jan 8, 2009 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672497)
Culture as in the resulting social bodies developed out of the culture. As Western nations have been developed out of Western culture, its values, its beliefs, its practices.

Yes. Imagine that. You actually want to measure "culture" by Western "culture". The same cats that sleep with their sisters and their donkeys. I mean, sure, we can compose a sonnet and write a song but, oh my fucking god, THE DONKEY SHOW.

Cetra Jan 8, 2009 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encephalon (Post 672503)
Yes. Imagine that. You actually want to measure "culture" by Western "culture". The same cats that sleep with their sisters and their donkeys. I mean, sure, we can compose a sonnet and write a song but, oh my fucking god, THE DONKEY SHOW.

No actually, you measure culture by propriety. Lets look at the most prosperous nations in history. Oh look at that its a list dominated by Western Culture civilizations. Oh are where are the Arab nations? Sitting along the bottom with the African civilizations. But we can just continue to refuse to ignore any possible correlation here. I mean doing so has just worked out so well for the world so far.

Oh but the Arab nations want to continue to blame western culture for holding them back. I mean its just could not possibility be that Arab culture is holding itself back. No need for reform here! If they can wipe Western culture off the planet Arab culture will prosper again!

No. Hard Pass. Jan 8, 2009 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672506)
No actually, you measure culture by propriety. Lets look at the most prosperous nations in history. Oh look at that its a list dominated by Western Culture civilizations. Oh are where are the Arab nations? Sitting along the bottom with the African civilizations. But we can just continue to refuse to ignore any possible correlation here. I mean doing so has just worked out so well for the world so far.

Oh but the Arab nations want to continue to blame western culture for holding them back. I mean its just could not possibility be that Arab culture is holding itself back. No need for reform here! If they can wipe Western culture off the planet Arab culture will prosper again!

Yeah. It's not like we owe a huge debt to the Muslim nations for things like astronomy, math, or the written word. It's not like some of the richest countries in the world are arab or anything.

Man, I don't even like the middle east, and you're winning me over to their side just by being so blatantly fucking wrong about all your facts.

Cetra Jan 8, 2009 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denicalis (Post 672508)
Yeah. It's not like we owe a huge debt to the Muslim nations for things like astronomy, math, or the written word. It's not like some of the richest countries in the world are arab or anything.

Man, I don't even like the middle east, and you're winning me over to their side just by being so blatantly fucking wrong about all your facts.

Yeah and we have a lot thanks to the Romans too, but oh look at how prosperous Roman culture is today. It's absolutely stupid to try and justify the current state of Arab nations by pointing thousand year old achievements.

And the most of the richest Arab nations in the world are also some of the worst places to live in the world. Just because your government makes billions of dollars on oil doesn't make them an example of prosperity. The riches Arab nations of the world have some of the worst living conditions in the world, they treat their citizens like shit and offer nothing to the rest of world. The UAE is an exception, but funny how they have the most 'Western-like' culture out of the Arab states. They are also gradually moving to a democratic state as they become more involved in world politics and and the world market. The UAE is the perfect example of reform made by an Arab state to integrate into the rest of the world. That nation has become more prosperous as they forgo more and more of the traditional Arab values.

Magi Jan 8, 2009 02:00 AM

Israel sure choose a fine time to go on a fucking rampage. Its wildly disproportionate, and unnecessary. Its not as if we don't already have a bunch of bullshit that we had to deal with, and now this.

No. Hard Pass. Jan 8, 2009 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672509)
Yeah and we have a lot thanks to the Romans too, but oh look at how prosperous Roman culture is today. It's absolutely stupid to try and justify the current state of Arab nations by pointing thousand year old achievements.

And the most of the richest Arab nations in the world are also some of the worst places to live in the world. Just because your government makes billions of dollars on oil doesn't make them an example of prosperity. The riches Arab nations of the world have some of the worst living conditions in the world, they treat their citizens like shit and offer nothing to the rest of world. The UAE is an exception, but funny how they have the most 'Western-like' culture out of the Arab states. They are also gradually moving to a democratic state as they become more involved in world politics and and the world market.

So your real point is that Palestinians deserve to die because they're different from us.

Oh yes. You're a winner.

Guru Jan 8, 2009 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magi (Post 672510)
Israel sure choose a fine time to go on a fucking rampage. Its wildly disproportionate, and unnecessary. Its not as if we don't already have a bunch of bullshit that we had to deal with, and now this.

Well, it's just a giant clusterfuck. Because you know, it sucks to have missiles shot at you every day, too. What do you do?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denicalis (Post 672511)
So your real point is that Palestinians deserve to die because they're different from us.

I don't know that they deserve to die so much as there are problems when nonconformity with the generally accepted worldly view means that you're in a constant state of violence and warmongering.

And obviously it's not all Palestinians. Just the ones that have the power to do the things they're doing, like Hezbollah.

Cal Jan 8, 2009 02:27 AM

HAW HAW HAWWW

YO PITTSBURGH MIKE HERE Jan 8, 2009 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672486)
I'm going to piss off a large amount of people, but like that's stopped me before.

The loss of Israel is only the fault of the Palestinians because they run one of the worst fucking cultures in the world. Being Arab fucking sucks, and poor state of the Arab nations is nothing but their own fault even though they continue to blame Western culture for their misfortunes. The only mildly successful Arab nations are ones that have close Western ties, AKA OIL.

Lets assume for the moment that the Arab nations get their wish and Israel is pushed into the sea. Now what? Will gaining the land of Israel somehow create this wonderful Arab utopia? Fuck no, it will become just another Arab nation shithole that nobody wants to deal with. Fuck you Palestinians, you've done nothing to deserve your own country.

See, when I'm sitting around after a Steelers or Penguins loss, I always blame them for blowing the game, too. It's their fault, without even considering how the other team factored in.

I've been reconsidering lately, though. Thinking about it, isn't the other team just as responsible for the eventual outcome? That made a lot more sense to me, and so I try to see the whole scope of things when going over a game in my head.

I find it gives me a more accurate view of how things really are.

Bradylama Jan 8, 2009 11:41 AM

Israel's superior culture in action:
YouTube Video

YouTube Video

lmbo bitch got owned fate of all Arabs :cool:

Misogynyst Gynecologist Jan 8, 2009 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672486)
I'm going to piss off a large amount of people, but like that's stopped me before.

The loss of Israel is only the fault of the Palestinians because they run one of the worst fucking cultures in the world. Being Arab fucking sucks, and poor state of the Arab nations is nothing but their own fault even though they continue to blame Western culture for their misfortunes. The only mildly successful Arab nations are ones that have close Western ties, AKA OIL.

Lets assume for the moment that the Arab nations get their wish and Israel is pushed into the sea. Now what? Will gaining the land of Israel somehow create this wonderful Arab utopia? Fuck no, it will become just another Arab nation shithole that nobody wants to deal with. Fuck you Palestinians, you've done nothing to deserve your own country.

I'm really tempted to prop this because outright brazen ignorance is so fucking hysterical to me. This is like that university article which claimed that fat women should get raped because it would make them feel attractive.

datschge Jan 8, 2009 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672493)
How about a self sustaining government and economy that can actually feed its people?

There is no such on earth.

Locke Jan 8, 2009 03:15 PM

Quote:

I'm going to piss off a large amount of people, but like that's stopped me before.

The loss of Israel is only the fault of the Palestinians because they run one of the worst fucking cultures in the world. Being Arab fucking sucks, and poor state of the Arab nations is nothing but their own fault even though they continue to blame Western culture for their misfortunes. The only mildly successful Arab nations are ones that have close Western ties, AKA OIL.

Lets assume for the moment that the Arab nations get their wish and Israel is pushed into the sea. Now what? Will gaining the land of Israel somehow create this wonderful Arab utopia? Fuck no, it will become just another Arab nation shithole that nobody wants to deal with. Fuck you Palestinians, you've done nothing to deserve your own country.
Are you kidding me? How did your ignorant ass even manage to get online?

Quote:

..worst fucking culture…fucking sucks…poor state…
Do you actually read the drivel you write? I was living in the Middle East before I moved to Canada, and can’t say that I met an arab who thought that it sucked. Just because your white ass is in the majority wherever you live, doesn’t mean that people of other skins are worse off then you. Jesus fucking Christ – where’s your bedsheets klanboy? When do you start burning crosses and lynching niggers?
And I’d hazard to say that many Arab nations are far more prosperous then many of the western ones you hold with high regard. Get your head out of your ass, you ass out of your momma’s house, and take a look at the real fucking word – not the one you’re taught at the klan meetings.

Quote:

How about a self sustaining government and economy that can actually feed its people? Active participants of the global market? Israel has the 21st most prosperous economy in the world and an active business and industry.
What is this self-sustaining government and economy you speak of? Nothing like the “good ‘ol USA” obviously, because it looks like a shit show right now. Israel would be nowhere if it wasn’t for backing from lobbies in the west.

Quote:

The difference is Israel has also taken the initiative to properly distribute and invest in the aid they receive. They also developed a stable government and have become less and less reliant on foreign aid by developing their own industries. This has been the pattern for pretty much every successful nation in the past.
By distribute and invest you mean create nuclear and chemical weapons? Gun down children? Have you BEEN to Palestine? It’s not a shithole because the Palestinians like living in a shithole, it’s a shithole because of Israel.

Quote:

Iraq was just given a similar opportunity and they have pissed it all away.
Are you fucking shitting me? Really? You’re going to say this.

Listen Cetra, put your ignorance, bigotry, and fucking KKK buddies aside for lets say, 10 seconds here, and lets do a little exercise. Ok? Can you do that? I know it’s scary to let go of these things, but I promise it is OK. Really. I do. Ok, now that you’re ready, imagine yourself living in your family’s apartment, doing whatever it is that you do that makes you happy, and then all of a sudden, BANGO BOOMO SHIZZAM, the neighbor crashes through the shared wall, killing your parents who were sitting at the table and eating lunch. Your neighbor looks at you, smiling, and exclaims, “I’m just expanding my apartment, I found that it was too small. Thanks for your apartment!” and goes on to annex everything that you owned – leaving you to the streets with barely the clothes on your back.
How would you feel? Is that giving you “every opportunity” to prosper? Really?

The unmovable stubborn Jan 8, 2009 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke (Post 672648)
When do you start burning crosses

He says, with a burning flag in his avatar.

Locke, enemy of extremists everywhere.

Locke Jan 8, 2009 03:19 PM

Hey, if you look closely, it's Rabbi's burning the flag, not me :)

*Sent the wrong message, obviously*

The unmovable stubborn Jan 8, 2009 03:27 PM

The fuck?

If I put a Klan lynching in my sig I couldn't just disassociate myself from it by saying I'm not the one lynching people. If you're going to use your avatar space to promote inflammatory attitudes, have the courage to stand by it.

Obviously I don't agree with a damned thing Cetra has said here but you're a massive hypocrite without any strength of conviction.

Skexis Jan 8, 2009 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke (Post 672651)
Hey, if you look closely, it's Rabbi's burning the flag, not me :)

"I won't take responsibility for my stance, as long as someone else does it for me!"

I do have to wonder what the chances are that Hamas and Hezbollah really didn't fire the rockets, and the latest ones are just a result of some pockets of people who can't go a few months without explosives.

Locke Jan 8, 2009 03:42 PM

Obviously I was joking, as noted by the :) at the end. Can't you guys see a little humour in the situation?

The unmovable stubborn Jan 8, 2009 03:43 PM

No, I do not see the humor in bombs and rockets.

Not very much.

Locke Jan 8, 2009 03:44 PM

Oh you know what I mean. Bleh.

The unmovable stubborn Jan 8, 2009 03:45 PM

No, nobody can understand what you mean because you keep typing with your giant shrieking vagina instead of your hands.

Locke Jan 8, 2009 03:48 PM

Anyways...

To get back on topic, it looks like the UN is halting aid missions into Gaza as the Israeli's have been attacking their convoys.

UN halts aid to Gaza, citing Israeli attacks on staff

"Sure, we'll let aid come in for a few hours every other day, we'll even stop shooting at the 'rabs for you, but now we'll just practice with you!"

nabhan Jan 8, 2009 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cetra (Post 672506)
No actually, you measure culture by propriety. Lets look at the most prosperous nations in history. Oh look at that its a list dominated by Western Culture civilizations. Oh are where are the Arab nations? Sitting along the bottom with the African civilizations. But we can just continue to refuse to ignore any possible correlation here. I mean doing so has just worked out so well for the world so far.

Oh but the Arab nations want to continue to blame western culture for holding them back. I mean its just could not possibility be that Arab culture is holding itself back. No need for reform here! If they can wipe Western culture off the planet Arab culture will prosper again!

You're an idiot. If you had any sense of history you would understand just how devastating colonialism was to Africa and the Middle East. It's not that once colonial powers left everything went back to the way it once was.

National borders were arbitrarily drawn, dividing similar peoples and creating artificial distinctions. Infrastructure was built that was designed to prevent regional trading (all the railroads led to ports). Farmers were forced to grow cash crops that destroyed the soil and left them without sustenance. Brutal regimes killed hundreds of thousands. Of course, that was 50+ years ago. Then the IMF and World Bank came around and gave crippling loans to desperate governments, knowing that they would never be able to afford the interest.

I'm not a post-modernist, but to say that Africans and Arabs don't have culture as defined by your arbitrary definition is simply fucking retarded.

Also, let's forget entirely about Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Jordan and all the other Arab nations that enjoy relatively high standards of living with less of the religious fundamentalism. Even Iran, the predominantly Shiite outsider hated by Arabs is lumped into the group and given a bad rep when most of the population is quite progressive, but ruled by Ayatollah's.

oh whatever. lol at the above

SHOW THEM MOZLEMS WHOS BOSS

edit: MUTHAFUCKAAAASSSS

http://design.flowingpens.com/blog/i...srael_flag.jpg

Bradylama Jan 8, 2009 06:08 PM

Wear my heart on my sleeve.

jurgen Jan 10, 2009 01:29 AM

Israel's unrelenting attack on Gaza is so unjustified. But this thread brings to light what Israel's true intentions for the invasion may be: oil reserves off Gaza's coastline.

No. Hard Pass. Jan 10, 2009 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jurgen (Post 672975)
Israel's unrelenting attack on Gaza is so unjustified. But this thread brings to light what Israel's true intentions for the invasion may be: oil reserves off Gaza's coastline.

Protip: If you'd like to be taken seriously, don't link to a website that talks about 9/11 truth and UFO invasions.

jurgen Jan 10, 2009 02:05 AM

Well, although that thread is from a conspiracy forum, it refers to multiple articles from reputable news sources to back up its claim. I could have just provided a link to one of those news sources, but I think providing a collective of sources from that thread would be more helpful.

Bradylama Jan 10, 2009 09:20 AM

Israel could violate Gaza's economic exploitation zone and nobody would care. I'm not even sure if the PLA is entitled to those kind of rights.

Israel invaded Gaza to time the post-Christmas news cycle and Bush leaving office. As much as Obama is probably going to support Israel as much as every other president he's still a wild card so Israel is doing their best to damage Hamas to the point where it'll take them years to recover.

Fluffykitten McGrundlepuss Jan 10, 2009 07:24 PM

There was a particularly poignant piece on Al-Jazeera earlier where a Norweigan doctor working in Gaza was on the phone talking about the situation. There's been no power for a fortnight now, 33 ambulance crewmen have been killed trying to help people, the Israelis seem to be just indiscriminately dropping bombs on civilians and he reckons they've barely hurt Hamas at all.

Bradylama Jan 10, 2009 08:06 PM

Israel is hurting HAMAS. A HAMAS higher up can't take a shit without Mossad knowing about it. Problem is for every HAMAS they kill you're also counting about 4 kids 8 women and 3 men. v:)v

Skexis Jan 10, 2009 08:19 PM

I read an opinion piece today by Mona Charen (a neocon rabble-rouser, but still) the nugget of truth nestled in there was that Israel is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Fundamentalist papers and the Hamas government are more likely to see Israel's concessions as signs of weakness than as gestures of goodwill.

Now given, they haven't been as discriminating as they should be, but with Hamas' tendency to use civilian structures as bunkers, is there a way that Israel can defend itself without drawing international ire?

YO PITTSBURGH MIKE HERE Jan 10, 2009 09:30 PM

Not really, which is what I going for before.

Even that's not the entirety of it, though. For Israel, the ire of the international community is nothing compared to that of the Palestinians living in all this. By invading Gaza to rid themselves of Hamas the Israelis have only united and inspired Palestinian youth to act, effectively swelling Hamas' as-yet-untouched ranks. But again, what would you have they do? Sit idly by as missiles explode on their own land?

It's a hell of a situation, that's for sure.

Scent of a Grundle Jan 10, 2009 10:55 PM

And one of the most annoying things about all of this is that neither side will stop the violence. Both sides have turned down the UN's much called for cease-fire, saying that they will not stop until the other side stops. Both sides want to have the last word in this fight, and I'm not sure if peace is even going to be possible at the rate Israel and Hamas leaders are going.

Bradylama Jan 10, 2009 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skexis (Post 673093)
Now given, they haven't been as discriminating as they should be, but with Hamas' tendency to use civilian structures as bunkers, is there a way that Israel can defend itself without drawing international ire?

Hmm, I wonder how Israel can defend itself from a movement born from opposition to apartheid?

hmmmmmmmmmmm

hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmhhhhhhmmmmmm

People talk about HAMAS "hiding in civilian centers" like they should stand out in the middle of a field and wait for Israeli F-16s to line up the laser designators. These are weekend warriors to begin with so they're already embedded in the civilian population as they're, durp durr, civilians. Cry and moan and gnash your teeth about how HAMAS uses human shield tactics all you want but this is how asymmetric wars are fought, it's just that in this particular instance the IDF doesn't give a shit about human shields.

The "best" route for Israel has already been chosen, since Israeli policy makers have committed themselves to crippling HAMAS and ensuring their defeat in the Palestinian civil war. If Israel was looking for a long term solution to sectarian violence meted out by unguided rockets that kill a handfull of people a year their best course would have been to do nothing.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...bingflower.gif

lordjames Jan 11, 2009 01:11 AM

Quote:

It wouldn't be out of the question if Jewish settlers were stopped from encroaching on Palestinian land and the Israelis themselves stopped electing hard right fascists like the Likkud.
Why would that make a difference? Even when Israel reversed its settlement policy by pulling out of Gaza in 2005 Hamas wasn’t satisfied. I can’t think of one occasion when the PA or Hamas ever took the initiative in extending some kind of peace offer to Israel. Maybe if the Palestinians hadn’t elected a party that wants to drive Israel into the sea this conflict could have been avoided...
Kadima isn’t perfect, I’ll concede that, but they’ve been more willing than Hamas to pursue peace. No other country would absorb rocket attacks without reacting for as long as Israel did. I don't know what reality you live in if you think people are going to tolerate their government not acting when rockets are being launched daily near their homes.
EDIT:
Your cartoon is fucked. Think about it, if you’re entrusted to defend your country, and you see the enemy launching rockets dangerously close to civilian areas, which are killing your own people, what are you going to do? Are you just going to sit by and let it happen?
Furthermore, are you really going to have any sympathy for someone who knowingly congregates near a place where rockets are being launched into Israel? You know it’s going to be a target, so why are you staying there? It’s not that hard to hear rockets being launched from your backyard. Get the fuck out if you’re too chicken shit to throw them off your land.

Bradylama Jan 11, 2009 02:49 AM

Hamas isn't a Gaza separatist movement, numbnuts.

But then I'm debating political nuance with a dbzatar.

Metal Sphere Jan 11, 2009 12:38 PM

Quote:

Get the fuck out if you’re too chicken shit to throw them off your land.
Wow. Isn't the Gaza strip densely populated to a ridiculous degree? Even the best of Israeli guided munitions wouldn't be able to hit the launch sites without killing tons of innocent civilians.

Factoring in the ground force that's firing on aid workers, we can see it's unlikely fleeing would get you anything other than a quick trip to the grave.

Bradylama Jan 11, 2009 12:55 PM

Look, geopolitical realities are no excuse when you're living next to terrorists. Maybe if you don't want to get bombed by the IDF you should leave Gaza.

*gets shot at IDF checkpoint*

Fluffykitten McGrundlepuss Jan 11, 2009 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordjames (Post 673134)
Your cartoon is fucked. Think about it, if you’re entrusted to defend your country, and you see the enemy launching rockets dangerously close to civilian areas, which are killing your own people, what are you going to do? Are you just going to sit by and let it happen?
Furthermore, are you really going to have any sympathy for someone who knowingly congregates near a place where rockets are being launched into Israel? You know it’s going to be a target, so why are you staying there? It’s not that hard to hear rockets being launched from your backyard. Get the fuck out if you’re too chicken shit to throw them off your land.

Are you suggesting that when the IRA were perpetuating a bombing campaign against train stations and shopping centres in mainland Britain, the best course of action for the UK government would have been to indiscriminately blow the shit out of south Belfast? Maybe send the tanks into Dublin because a lot of IRA members lived there too you know? Quite a lot of the IRA's funding came from New York you know, maybe we should have started blowing up Manhattan? We all know how popular a move that turned out not to be...

Edit:

http://www2.b3ta.com/host/creative/4...2897/wrong.jpg

lordjames Jan 12, 2009 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradylama (Post 673160)
Hamas isn't a Gaza separatist movement, numbnuts.

But then I'm debating political nuance with a dbzatar.

I never said they were separatists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradylama
Look, geopolitical realities are no excuse when you're living next to terrorists. Maybe if you don't want to get bombed by the IDF you should leave Gaza.

*gets shot at IDF checkpoint*

Well, if staying in a target-zone is your preference, that’s fine. It wouldn’t be mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effstar
Are you suggesting that when the IRA were perpetuating a bombing campaign against train stations and shopping centres in mainland Britain, the best course of action for the UK government would have been to indiscriminately blow the shit out of south Belfast? Maybe send the tanks into Dublin because a lot of IRA members lived there too you know? Quite a lot of the IRA's funding came from New York you know, maybe we should have started blowing up Manhattan? We all know how popular a move that turned out not to be...

Maybe my history’s a bit off, but I’m pretty sure Britain conducted military operations against the IRA. If you read my post I wasn’t suggesting anything except that some kind of reaction was needed. Do I think saturated bombings are going solve the problem in the long-term? No, but I do think that Hamas’ rocket attacks have to end, and the easiest way to do that in the short-run is to bomb their launching sites. Of course, there’s always Brady’s advice, which is to just let Hamas fire rockets into Israel indefinitely (post 91). If we just leave them alone long enough eventually they’ll see the error of their ways and stop, right?

Bradylama Jan 12, 2009 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordjames (Post 673398)
I never said they were separatists.

You said Israel withdrew from Gaza and ended their settlement program, as if that was supposed to make Hamas go "gee thanks guys" and just completely ignore everything that's been going on in the West Bank.

Not like Israel has left Gaza alone, mind. There's still the economic strangulation and fun stuff like low-flying Israeli jets creating sonic booms that cause health problems like damaging children's ears.

Quote:

Well, if staying in a target-zone is your preference, that’s fine. It wouldn’t be mine.
Yeah, they should have just put that children's hospital on wheels and rolled it into Egypt. Or hey maybe the aid workers should leave as well since clearly marked vehicles and UN schools are also military targets.

Fluffykitten McGrundlepuss Jan 12, 2009 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordjames (Post 673398)
Maybe my history’s a bit off, but I’m pretty sure Britain conducted military operations against the IRA.

Well, they put up checkpoints to search cars for bombs and guns and they assisted the police in arresting suspects when need be but they managed to avoid using bombs or tanks throughout. Yes, it was a long conflict and yes there were some civilian casualties but Israel has killed more civilians since invading Gaza than the entire IRA/loyalist war did in it's duration. The way to stop people killing civilians is not to kill more civilians.

knkwzrd Jan 12, 2009 01:21 PM

I haven't really been reading the arguments in this thread, but I read an article the other day that I thought was quite well done and I thought it might be appreciated here.

Spoiler:
The Gaza Ghetto and Western Cant

By TARIQ ALI

The assault on the Gaza Ghetto, planned over six months and executed with perfect timing was designed largely to help the incumbent parties triumph in the forthcoming Israeli elections. The dead Palestinians are little more than election fodder in a cynical contest between the Right and the Far Right in Israel. Washington and its EU allies, perfectly aware that Gaza was about to be assaulted, as in the case of Lebanon a few years, sit back and watch. Washington, as is its wont, blames the pro-Hamas Palestinians, with Obama and Bush singing from the same AIPAC hymn sheet.

The EU politicians, having observed the build-up, the siege, the collective punishment inflicted on Gaza, the targeting of civilians, etc [See Harvard scholar Sara Roy’s chilling essay in the latest LRB] were convinced that it was the rocket attacks that had ‘provoked’ Israel but called on both sides to end the violence, with nil effect. The moth-eaten Mubarik dictatorship in Egypt and NATO’s favourite Islamists in Ankara, failed to even register a symbolic protest by recalling their Ambassadors from Israel. China and Russia did not convene a meeting of the UNSC to discuss the crisis.

As result of official apathy, one outcome of this latest attack will be to inflame Muslim communities throughout the world and swell the ranks of those very organisations that the West claims it is combating in the ‘war against terror’.

The bloodshed in Gaza raises broader strategic questions for both sides, issues related to recent history. One fact that needs to be recognised is that there is no Palestinian Authority. There never was one. The Oslo Accords were an unmitigated disaster for the Palestinians, creating a set of disconnected and shrivelled Palestinian ghettoes under the permanent watch of a brutal enforcer.

The PLO, once the repository of Palestinian hope, became little more than a supplicant for EU money. Western enthusiasm for democracy stops when those opposed to its policies are elected to office. The West and Israel tried everything to secure a Fatah victory: Palestinian voters rebuffed the concerted threats and bribes of the ‘international community’ in a campaign that saw Hamas members and other oppositionists routinely detained or assaulted by the IDF, their posters confiscated or destroyed, us and EU funds channelled into the Fatah campaign, and US Congressmen announcing that Hamas should not be allowed to run. Even the timing of the election was set by the determination to rig the outcome. Scheduled for the summer of 2005, it was delayed till January 2006 to give Abbas time to distribute assets in Gaza—in the words of an Egyptian intelligence officer: ‘the public will then support the Authority against Hamas’. Popular desire for a clean broom after ten years of corruption, bullying and bluster under Fatah proved stronger than all of this.

Hamas’s electoral triumph was treated as an ominous sign of rising fundamentalism, and a fearsome blow to the prospects of peace with Israel, by rulers and journalists across the Atlantic world. Immediate financial and diplomatic pressures were applied to force Hamas to adopt the same policies as those whom it defeated at the polls.
Uncompromised by the Palestinian Authority’s combination of greed and dependency, the self-enrichment of its servile spokesmen and policemen, and their acquiescence in a ‘peace process’ that has brought only further expropriation and misery to the population under them, Hamas offered the alternative of a simple example. Without any of the resources of its rival, it set up clinics, schools, hospitals, vocational training and welfare programmes for the poor. Its leaders and cadres lived frugally, within reach of ordinary people. It is this response to everyday needs that has won Hamas the broad basis of its support, not daily recitation of verses from the Koran.

How far its conduct in the second Intifada has given it an additional degree of credibility is less clear. Its armed attacks on Israel, like those of Fatah’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade or Islamic Jihad, have been retaliations against an occupation far more deadly than any actions it has ever undertaken. Measured on the scale of IDF killings, Palestinian strikes have been few and far between. The asymmetry was starkly exposed during Hamas’s unilateral ceasefire, begun in June 2003, and maintained throughout the summer despite the Israeli campaign of raids and mass arrests, which followed, in which some three hundred Hamas cadres were seized from the West Bank. On 19 August 2003 a self-proclaimed ‘Hamas’ cell from Hebron, disowned and denounced by the official leadership, blew up a bus in West Jerusalem, upon which Israel promptly assassinated the Hamas ceasefire’s negotiator, Ismail Abu Shanab. Hamas in turn responded. In return, the Palestinian Authority and Arab states cut funding to its charities and, in September 2003, the EU declared the whole Hamas movement to be a terrorist organization—a long-standing demand of Tel Aviv.

What has actually distinguished Hamas in a hopelessly unequal combat is not dispatch of suicide bombers, to which a range of competing groups resorted, but its superior discipline—demonstrated by its ability to enforce a self-declared ceasefire against Israel over the past year. All civilian deaths are to be condemned, but since Israel is their principal practitioner, Euro-American cant serves only to expose those who utter it. Overwhelmingly, the boot of murder is on the other foot, ruthlessly stamped into Palestine by a modern army equipped with jets, tanks and missiles in the longest armed oppression of modern history. ‘Nobody can reject or condemn the revolt of a people that has been suffering under military occupation for forty-five years against occupation force’: the words of General Shlomo Gazit, former chief of Israeli military intelligence, in 1993.

The real grievance of the EU and US against Hamas is that it refused to accept the capitulation of the Oslo Accords, and has rejected every subsequent effort, from Taba to Geneva, to pass off their calamities on the Palestinians. The West’s priority ever since was to break this resistance. Cutting off funding to the Palestinian Authority is an obvious weapon with which to bludgeon Hamas into submission. Boosting the presidential powers of Abbas—as publicly picked for his post by Washington, as was Karzai in Kabul—at the expense of the Legislative Council is another.

No serious efforts were made to negotiate with the elected Palestinian leadership. I doubt if Hamas could have been rapidly suborned to Western and Israel but it would not have been unprecedented. Hamas’s programmatic heritage remains mortgaged to the most fatal weakness of Palestinian nationalism: the belief that the political choices before it are either rejection of the existence of Israel altogether, or acceptance of the dismembered remnants of a fifth of the country. From the fantasy maximalism of the first to the pathetic minimalism of the second, the path is all too short, as the history of Fatah has shown. The test for Hamas is not whether it can be house-trained to the satisfaction of Western opinion, but whether it can break with this crippling tradition. Soon after the Hamas victory I was asked in public by a Palestinian what I would do in their place. ‘Dissolve the Palestinian Authority’, was my response and end the make-belief. To do so would situate the Palestinian national cause on its proper basis, with the demand that the country and its resources be divided equitably, in proportion to two populations that are equal in size—not 80 per cent to one and 20 per cent to the other, a dispossession of such iniquity that no self-respecting people will ever submit to it in the long run. The only acceptable alternative is a single state for Jews and Palestinians alike, in which the exactions of Zionism are repaired.

datschge Jan 12, 2009 03:07 PM

Spot on article if I may say so.

Bradylama Jan 12, 2009 04:15 PM

The only democratic nation in a region filled with Moon God worshiping mud bloods displays its superior culture by banning arab parties.

Quote:

Israel bans Arab parties from coming election - World AP - MiamiHerald.com
JERUSALEM -- Israel on Monday banned Arab political parties from running in next month's parliamentary elections, drawing accusations of racism by an Arab lawmaker who said he would challenge the decision in the country's Supreme Court.

The ruling by parliament's Central Election Committee reflected the heightened tensions between Israel's Jewish majority and Arab minority caused by Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip. Arabs have held a series of demonstrations against the offensive.

Parliament spokesman Giora Pordes said the election committee voted overwhelmingly in favor of the motion, accusing the country's Arab parties of incitement, supporting terrorist groups and refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist. Arab lawmakers have traveled to some of Israel's staunchest enemies, including Lebanon and Syria.

The 37-member committee is composed of representatives from Israel's major political parties. The measure was proposed by two ultranationalist parties but received widespread support.

The decision does not affect Arab lawmakers in predominantly Jewish parties or the country's communist party, which has a mixed list of Arab and Jewish candidates. Roughly one-fifth of Israel's 7 million citizens are Arabs. Israeli Arabs enjoy full citizenship rights, but have suffered from discrimination and poverty for decades.

Arab lawmakers Ahmed Tibi and Jamal Zahalka, political rivals who head the two Arab blocs in parliament, joined together in condemning Monday's decision.

"It was a political trial led by a group of Fascists and racists who are willing to see the Knesset without Arabs and want to see the country without Arabs," said Tibi.

Together, the Arab lists hold seven of the 120 seats in the Knesset, or parliament.

Tibi said he would appeal to the high court, while Zahalka said his party was still deciding how to proceed.

Pordes, the parliament spokesman, said the last party to be banned was the late Rabbi Meir Kahane's Kach Party, a list from the 1980s that advocated the expulsion of Arabs from Israel.

lordjames Jan 12, 2009 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradylama (Post 673400)
You said Israel withdrew from Gaza and ended their settlement program, as if that was supposed to make Hamas go "gee thanks guys" and just completely ignore everything that's been going on in the West Bank.

Not like Israel has left Gaza alone, mind. There's still the economic strangulation and fun stuff like low-flying Israeli jets creating sonic booms that cause health problems like damaging children's ears.

I never said I agreed with everything Israel does. What I don’t agree with is your characterization of Israel. Israel has just as much right to launch an embargo/blockade of Palestine as the Americans do against Cuba. Equally, if the Palestinians want to try and compel Israel into lifting its blockade by firing rockets into their territory, they should expect retaliation. I don’t see why you expect Israel to just sit back and absorb attacks against its territory.
As for the disengagement plan, at least Israel has made gestures towards peace. I’m sure Israel is very sorry they couldn’t do more for the Palestinians when they’ve been so committed to the peace process since 2001. Can you remind me how many times Hamas has extended some kind of peace gesture towards Israel?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bradylama
Yeah, they should have just put that children's hospital on wheels and rolled it into Egypt.

Or leave if someone's launching rockets near your home?

Bradylama Jan 12, 2009 06:09 PM

The US embargo on Cuba is the most pointless gesture of US foreign policy on the books, and outlasted its relevancy when Soviet missiles left the island. Of course you'd equivocate one of our dumbest policies with Israeli apartheid.

Saying that Israel has made gestures towards peace is also a fucking laugh and a half. Israel violates its peace accords regularly and Jewish settlements still continue to grow while Palestinians are forced into smaller and smaller ghettoes. Palestinians have no political route to peace since the PLO sold out to European corporate interests, and now Arab Israelis can't even affect Israeli policy because their political parties are banned.

You can't just leave Gaza, they call it a ghetto because people can't escape. I'd like to hear your suggestions about where exactly the Palestinians in Gaza CAN go that's safe keeping in mind the IDF already bombed a clearly marked UN SCHOOL FOR CHILDREN.

Additional Spam:
YouTube Video

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe the Plumber
The people of Sderot "can't do normal things day to day," like get soap in their eyes in the shower, for fear a rocket might come in, said Joe the Plumber, so dubbed by Republican Sen. John McCain's campaign, but whose real name is Samuel Wurzelbacher.

"I'm sure they're taking quick showers," he said. "I know I would."

Joe the Plumber should take a Zyklon B shower.

Additional Spam:
Israelis demonstrate the danger of Hamas rocket attacks.

Additional Spam:
Joe The Plumber asks for the REAL STORY from the only brown reporter.

Pokey Jan 14, 2009 01:06 PM

Demands grow for Gaza war crimes investigation:
Israel is facing growing demands from senior UN officials and human rights groups for an international war crimes investigation in Gaza over allegations such as the "reckless and indiscriminate" shelling of residential areas and use of Palestinian families as human shields by soldiers.

With the death toll from the 17-day Israeli assault on Gaza climbing above 900, pressure is increasing for an independent inquiry into specific incidents, such as the shelling of a UN school turned refugee centre where about 40 people died, as well as the question of whether the military tactics used by Israel systematically breached humanitarian law.
Link to this audio

The UN's senior human rights body approved a resolution yesterday condemning the Israeli offensive for "massive violations of human rights". A senior UN source said the body's humanitarian agencies were compiling evidence of war crimes and passing it on to the "highest levels" to be used as seen fit.

Some human rights activists allege that the Israeli leadership gave an order to keep military casualties low no matter what cost to civilians. That strategy has directly contributed to one of the bloodiest Israeli assaults on the Palestinian territories, they say.

John Ging, head of the UN Palestinian refugee agency in Gaza, said: "It's about accountability [over] the issue of the appropriateness of the force used, the proportionality of the force used and the whole issue of duty of care of civilians.

"We don't want to join any chorus of passing judgment but there should be an investigation of any and every incident where there are concerns there might have been violations in international law."

The Israeli military are accused of:

• Using powerful shells in civilian areas which the army knew would cause large numbers of innocent casualties;

• Using banned weapons such as phosphorus bombs;

• Holding Palestinian families as human shields;

• Attacking medical facilities, including the killing of 12 ambulance men in marked vehicles;

• Killing large numbers of police who had no military role.

Israeli military actions prompted an unusual public rebuke from the International Red Cross after the army moved a Palestinian family into a building and shelled it, killing 30. The surviving children clung to the bodies of their dead mothers for four days while the army blocked rescuers from reaching the wounded.

Human Rights Watch has called on the UN security council to set up a commission of inquiry into alleged war crimes.

Two leading Israeli human rights organisations have separately written to the country's attorney general demanding he investigate the allegations.

But critics remain sceptical that any such inquiry will take place, given that Israel has previously blocked similar attempts with the backing of the US.

Amnesty International says hitting residential streets with shells that send blast and shrapnel over a wide area constitutes "prima facie evidence of war crimes".

"There has been reckless and disproportionate and in some cases indiscriminate use of force," said Donatella Rovera, an Amnesty investigator in Israel. "There has been the use of weaponry that shouldn't be used in densely populated areas because it's known that it will cause civilian fatalities and casualties.

"They have extremely sophisticated missiles that can be guided to a moving car and they choose to use other weapons or decide to drop a bomb on a house knowing that there were women and children inside. These are very, very clear breaches of international law."

Israel's most prominent human rights organisation, B'Tselem, has written to the attorney general in Jerusalem, Meni Mazuz, asking him to investigate suspected crimes including how the military selects its targets and the killing of scores of policemen at a passing out parade.

"Many of the targets seem not to have been legitimate military targets as specified by international humanitarian law," said Sarit Michaeli of B'Tselem.

Rovera has also collected evidence that the Israeli army holds Palestinian families prisoner in their own homes as human shields. "It's standard practice for Israeli soldiers to go into a house, lock up the family in a room on the ground floor and use the rest of the house as a military base, as a sniper's position. That is the absolute textbook case of human shields.

"It has been practised by the Israeli army for many years and they are doing it again in Gaza now," she said.

While there are growing calls for an international investigation, the form it would take is less clear. The UN's human rights council has the authority to investigate allegations of war crimes but Israel has blocked its previous attempts to do so. The UN security council could order an investigation, and even set up a war crimes tribunal, but that is likely to be vetoed by the US and probably Britain.

The international criminal court has no jurisdiction because Israel is not a signatory. The UN security council could refer the matter to the court but is unlikely to.

Benjamin Rutland, a spokesman for the Israeli military, said an international investigation of the army's actions was not justified. "We have international lawyers at every level of the command whose job it is to authorise targeting decisions, rules of engagement ... We don't think we have breached international law in any of these instances," he said.


source

I find the last few paragraphs particularly interesting. I'm not too familiar with the process, but is there a way that Ehud Olmert and his defense minister can be held responsible for their war crimes? What is the probability that it will happen?

Bradylama Jan 24, 2009 03:06 PM

Now that Israel has withdrawn from Gaza as a homemaking present for Obama let's look at the deadly toll caused by Hamas's Qassam rockets:

Quote:

[url]http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=883997&ct=3887857[url]
List of Deaths Caused by Qassam Rockets and Mortar Fire. Total: 23

Total Deaths Within Israel: 16

June 5, 2008 - Amnon Rosenberg, 51, killed by a mortar bomb which struck Moshav Yesha [1]

May 12, 2008 - Shuli Katz, 70, killed by a Qassam rocket which struck Moshav Yesha [2]

May 9, 2008 - Jimmy Kedoshim from Kibbutz Kfar Aza, aged 48, killed by a mortar shell fired by Hamas from the Gaza Strip [3]
Feb 27, 2008 – Roni Yihye, 47, a mature student, killed on Sapir College campus while sitting in his car [4]

May 27, 2007 - Oshri Oz, 36, from Hod Hasharon. Killed in Sderot when a rocket hit his vehicle as he was driving in the city, where he worked as computer technician.

May 21, 2007 - Shirel Friedman, 32, from Sderot, killed when standing near a car that was struck by a rocket

Nov. 21, 2006 - Yaakov Yaakobov, 43, from Sderot. Severely injured while at work in a Sderot poultry processing plant and died from his wounds one day later.

Nov. 11, 2006 - Faina Slutzker, 57, killed when a rocket hits the street where she is walking near the home of Defense Minister Amir Peretz.

March 28, 2006 - Salam Ziadin and Khalid, 16, a Bedouin father and son, killed when a Qassam rocket they find in the Nahal Oz area explodes.

July 15, 2005 - Dana Gelkowitz, 22, killed by a Qassam that strikes a home in Moshav Nativ Ha'asara.

Jan. 15, 2005 - Ayala Haya Abukasis, 17, killed when a rocket hits Sderot.

Sept. 29, 2004 - Dorit Inso, 2, killed when two rockets hit her residence building.

Sept. 29, 2004 - Yuval Abeva, 4, killed when two rockets hit his residence building.

June 28, 2004 - Afik Ohion Zehavi, 4, killed when a rocket lands in his nursery school in Sderot.

June 28, 2004 - Mordechai Yosephus, 49, killed when a rocket lands in a kindergarten in Sderot.

Total Deaths from Mortar Fire in the Former Israeli Settlements in Gaza: 8

Dec. 14, 2005 - Jitladda Tap-arsa, 20, a female Thai national, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

June 7, 2005 - Bi Shude, 46, a Chinese national, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

June 7, 2005 - Muhammad Mahmoud Jaroum, a Palestinian worker, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

June 7, 2005 - Muslah Umran, a Palestinian worker, was killed while working in a greenhouse in the Gush Katif settlement of Ganei Tal.

Jan. 2, 2005 - Nissim Arbiv, 26, of Nissanit, was severely injured by a mortar shell in the Erez industrial zone. He died from his injuries ten days later.

Oct. 28, 2004 - Sgt. Michael Chizik, 21, of Tiberias, was killed when a mortar shell landed in the Morag outpost in Gush Katif.

Sept. 24, 2004: Tiferet Tratner, 24, of Neve Dekalim, was killed in her home by a mortar attack on the Gush Katif settlement bloc.

Nov. 24, 2001 - St.-Sgt. Barak Madmon, from Holon, 26, was killed by a mortar strike while on reserve duty in Kfar Darom.
Those monsters, surely the IDF responded surgically and professionally by -
Quote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7835981.stm
At least 1,300 Palestinians, according to Palestinian sources, and 13 Israelis have been killed since Israel launched its offensive on 27 December.


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