lincoln, a great man?
 

Because he was able to save the union, Lincoln is considered by many as one the best presidents ever. He is also seen as a humane person for his freeing the slaves...

But after reading SIX BIG LIES ABOUT ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SLAVES AND THE WAR, I have my doubts.

His being a humane person can be dispelled quickly. His main goal was to keep the union at all cost. One of turtledove's book (where the South wins the civil war) showed it clearly.

Is Lincoln among the greatest or the worst presidents?

Great people aren't always good people, in fact that's mostly been the case historically.

Lincoln is one of our greatest presidents but he wasn't exactly a saint. That still doesn't mean he wasn't pretty awesome compared to his contemporaries and met a challenge that would cause most to burn out.

I really don't know why anyone would expect Lincoln to be a saint. You don't reach the office of the presidency by compromising and being nice to everyone. The whole "omg lincoln was a human being with faults" meme is just the product of an over-exaggerated hostile reaction to modern Republicans, which have about as much in common with the party of Lincoln's day as a poodle has in common with a fire axe. To call Lincoln the "worst president ever" betrays an absurd ignorance of the dire straits both nations would have rapidly found themselves in had the secession been permanent.

Please, don't use Harry Turtledove as a meaningful reference work. It makes me to cry.

Dudes, the Confederacy totally would've abolished slavery because Robert E. Lee hated it. Seriously.

My high school US history teacher referenced Turtledove on more than one occasion. Such is the quality of our public education system.

That website linked above makes Liberterians look bad. I mean - can you really take that crap about Lincoln seriously if its the same "webzine" that runs "The film WALL-E blatantly conveys environmentalist, anti-capitalist, anti-technological propaganda. But I will concentrate on a much more egregious error made by its creators—an error made in ignorance of basic economics and of commonsense insights regarding the nature of human behaviors."

To quote a great show before our time - "Veeeeeery in-ter-es-tink - but STOOPID"

I'M not from the US, so my history books barely talk about your ivil War.

I don't imply he's a scholarly source - although the knows about history - but he did show lincoln's motive.

A lot of libertarians like to rag on Lincoln because they think it makes them seem interesting, but more often than not you get the honest-to-God Confederate apologists like Von Mises Institute contributors.

So wait.

You admit to knowing nothing about our Civil War - yet you think he knows something about history? What do you base your opinion on? You have no credible sources and nothing in which to bounce off this guy's rambling. So its safe to say you're simply ignorant and this guy has something shiny and angry to sell you on the cheap.

The fact that he can say something you don't know does not make him intelligent. I can tell you tons of things about the American Civil War - my father is obsessed with that time period - but telling you such things doesn't mean I'm a scholar on the subject. I would suggest that I'd be a much bigger shoo-in for the title of scholar than this guy ever will be, and that should say a lot.

Long and short - this guy is an idiot and you're a bigger one for listening to him. And you can take that to the bank, buckko.

One thing stood out that summed up the article, OPINION. While it is true Lincoln did not care about freeing slaves and ever offered the southern states the right to keep slaves if they joined the union. I like the Jab at the republican party as if we have the same type of people in that party today.


As a way to conscript more soldiers Lincoln created whole regiments of black only battle groups. They were segregated by law Just as the Irish battle groups were. Lincoln used this to his advantage and while I agree he did not care to end slavery, doing so helped him win the war. Every great person has their faults and those faults can be found just about any where be they true or false. The guy who wrote this seems to want to bash Republicans in general when he sites their tax and spend and warmongering ways. What he fails to mention is democrat presidents who brought us into many wars or the shady history of the democrat part with regards to race relations.

The Democratic Party’s Legacy of Racism by Mackubin T. Owens See how easy that is, we can provide a link to an article written by someone who wants to trash democrats.

Democrats were the racist party, though. The Dixiecrat schism occurred because Southern whites felt the party was getting away from them.

The irony was lost on every American that the democrats backed a *black* nominee.

The irony is Under a republican Africa has recieved more AIDS help from the US than under any other president. Also black home ownership is up to levels never seen before under a republican president.

US Census Press Releases

You... obviously don't understand the word "irony" if you're following our posts.

Do you have a reference for your AIDS assistance claim? Even if true, it doesn't prove much. A condom costs a quarter, an "abstinence education" costs significantly more but that doesn't make it more effective.

Also, bragging about "home ownership" in the middle of a loan crisis is a little disingenuous. How many of these people will actually get to keep their homes?

I never said i was bragging, you are reading too far into the point I tried to make. Also correct about the home crisis , regardless black home ownership has increased.


There is several links that show US aid to Africa for aids victims,research and other needs.
Digg - Bush Has Quietly Tripled Aid to Africa
There is also counter claims by groups saying that Bush has not done a thing to help. Condoms don't do much for the person if they are already infected and not educated enough to know how condoms can help.

So hey, I'm wondering what George Bush not actually doing much to help black people has to do with this thread.

As opposed to all the aide we've given them in the past - which has culminated to them needing more of it, and where upon we stop assissting. Then its easy for them to piss and moan and say LOOK WHAT HAPPENS - but they're just looking for help instead of helping themselves.

:tpg:

Have you seen any of his other threads?


Oprah Winfrey = only in America... and it's all Honest Abe's fault.

Well, a Republican found the thread

So, inevitably

The thread was hijacked into discussion of why we should love the President

YOU DON'T CHANGE HORSES IN MIDSTREAM, PANGALIN MURPHY.

Quote from the article: Another factor that motivated war was the Republican Party’s lust (which, with few and brief exceptions, it has retained to the present day) to tax and spend.

His piece was nothing more than a hit smear piece on Lincoln mixed with some half truths and history. Why people like him continue to hold yesterdays way of life up with today's standards is beyond me.

I pointed out how the same thing could be done to democrats. Than some how aids got mixed in..

Lehah I aggree with you, Africa should not get any aid for aids. Matter in fact the highly preventable disease Aids should not even be on the forefront. More children die from cancer each year than aids and cancer is not preventable like aids.

On topic: Lincoln was a great leader who played a pivatable part in shaping our US history. Unknown motivations be they dark or light still lead us down the path of equality we are at today. Why judge him and in judging him like his are we no better than the Ku Klux Klan groups that write hit pieces of MLK or Malcom X?

Additional Spam:

A few things not covered in high school level history is freed blacks were allowed to own slaves and did so in great numbers. The main problem is people either unable to fit parts of history in their new age political correct world or want to leave out what they can't explain.


Black Confederate Soldiers

Additional Spam:
So if I said a Lincoln hating jew with a hook nose point downward found this thread so lets talk about how famous US leaders suck you would welcome me and not make assumptions. Republicrats and demicans all of them.

You're really dumb, you know that?

A long while back, I got into a pissing match with a friend over the then-new War In Iraq. She was beating her chest, demanding restitutions to the civilians in the area who had limbs blown off, who had builings burned down - and was screaming that the press was in the pocket of the government. That we weren't seeing the war as it was! That we were being fed *lies* and *disinformation* by mass media! That children and cats and dogs and hampsters were having limbs blown off in firefights!

She stopped talking to me when I pointed out that the only way she could know that there was disinformation about war injuries - was because she was seeing war injuries on CNN, in the first place.

This is exactly the same thing. You piss and moan about people being fed lies and garbage and under-education - yet here you are saying these things, meaning... people must know about these things! Stop trying to be clever, those of us who use THE MIGHTY POWER OF CRITICAL THINKING have gone beyond your apparent capacity to understand the matter at hand.

Yeah, the guy ain't exactly bright. Or talented. Or worthy of holding my used toilet paper.

But once in a while you NEED these people in a community. They're so dull, all you do is throw a little water on them and then use them to sharpen your arguement knife. I dont know about you but it keeps me sharp, on the edge.

I'm not trying to smear or bash someone by pointing out obscure facts. So no, it's not the same thing and calling me dumb only serves to inflate your ego. It's quite easy to grab any part of history and either judge them by today's standards or use them to prop up an arguement as to why this or that should be or not be. People buy into it because they lack the whole history. They lack the whole history because schools choose to teach only what they consider to be important in the limmited time frame they have for each class.

If that friend you have, had looked up more sources other than CNN she would have seen progress made in Iraq, beheadings along with the ups and downs of the US and several other countries going over there.

She choose one source thus recieved a slighted message. Students today recieve just a few sources and recieve the same sligted insight of history. Any one could do a research paper on Lincoln and use the OP source as their only source and be just as skewed.


going to the statement that I bitch and moan about being fed garbage and lies under education, thats not what I said. I'm sure every quote Lincoln made was spot on. What I object to is when people judge history by today's standards. When we judge ones actions of yesterday by how we think today's. The education system of today can not possibly fit in every aspect of history in the 50 or so minutes they get for each class. Thats understandable however if one is going to bash a part of history they could at least use more than the small ammount they were taught in high school.

Leave and never come back. Its for your own safety. You'll be eaten alive on this board with this kinda of nonsense.

So you are saying its good to never look at the end result or what Lincoln did but lets just go back in time and fail to understand how times were back then. maybe we should hold court and find Lincoln guilty of hate speech and racism too right?

500 Years Later
 

This was a quote by Lincoln on Oct. 13th, 1858 on a debate with Steven A. Douglas used for the documentary 500 Years Later

I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races--that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together in terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

...notwithstanding all this, there is no reason in the world why the negro is not entitled to all the rights enumerated in the Declaration of Independence--the right of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I hold that he is as much entitled to these as the white man. I agree with Judge Douglas that he is not my equal in many respects, certainly not in color--perhaps not in intellectual and moral endowments; but in the right to eat bread without leave of anybody else which his own hand earns [the Republican version of what the other rights amount to?], he is my equal and the equal of Judge Douglas and the equal of every other man.



Over the years through primary, high school, and college, the history is usually tailored in a way to avoid the negative view of Lincoln. For me, Lincoln was great for what he did for the country but also horrible (understated) for what he didn't do.

Of course we're better. Lincoln's long-term plan for race relations involved sending the niggers back to Africa, and we know how well that's turned out.

It doesn't have to be explained because there weren't any white slaves. Nothing about black slave owners challenges pre-conceived norms about the American slave trade.

My Renaissance professor keeps telling us that "The Dark Ages" is a prejudiced term, but I still can't think of any way that the period didn't suck ass compared to Rome.

I'm going to tell you why you're an idiot and its for very obvious reasons. So obvious, that I expect you to be Shivley or some other dickless fuckbag.

The first thing is that Lincoln - first and foremost - was an elected politician. He had to get up and say certain things that were "expected" of him. That is - if he were to get up in front of people during a debate and say BLACKS ARE EQUAL IN EVERY WAY he'd have been viewed as no better than John Brown. No one, and I mean no one, gets up and demands sociological reformations of that calibur and expect to remain in office or ever be taken seriously again.

Even if Lincoln wanted to free the slaves and make them equal to Whites - he knew it couldn't happen. This is *exactly* what he means when he mentions "I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which will ever forbid the two races living together in terms of social and political equality". It wasn't that he didn't want Blacks to be equal - its that he knew it can't happen because people are people and people are prejudiced in everything they do.

To this day - in terms of social status - blacks *still* are not equal to whites in many ways. Yes, you have both races on either side of the poverty line, but which one stereotypically lives in the ghettos and the poorer sections?

Lincoln, in his incredible wisdom, realized that change was a gradual, slow process. America was a struggling nation and to remove the slaves from the South would create an economical disaster, moral implications or not. Looking back, we can see that Lincoln realized that he had to be very careful in the balancing act between what he could do and what he'd be damned for. For that, he did an outstanding job.

I don't think surmising that Lincoln was a crafty dude constitutes a real interpretation of his character or a credit to his legacy. People can't stomach the idea that Lincoln could be kind of racist and also an abolitionist, but intellectual inconsistencies aren't uncommon for great Americans.

Jefferson was the biggest slave-owning hypocrite the country has ever known, who unlike some other slave owning founders didn't emancipate his on his death. Yet Jefferson still set a precedent for man's universal right in the States and had no illusions about his own status as a slave owner.

Lincoln was a free soiler before he was an abolitionist, and while some people like to speculate that he began to increasingly view blacks as equal it's not important. What is important is that what was accomplished during Lincoln's presidency, and by no small part due to his direct involvement, are the most important achievements in American history. Even Lincoln dieing at the time he did was arguably for the best depending on how you view his Reconstruction plan.

Trying to think of Lincoln a secret darkie lover tries to ignore the fact that he was human and a product of his times. Even John Brown, for all his admirable qualities was nonetheless a murderer. The fact that these people could do so much good despite being so seriously flawed is what I feel makes them great.

huh?!
 

You lost me right there dude. Sure Lincoln's contributions to the nation is great and should be taught and recognize in schools, but what I'm saying is the negatives should also be taught and show how both these sides of Lincoln along with the collection mind set of the leaders and public of the time might of have affected the outcome of society in America today. Respect man, I don't know you bro, and yes we don't agree but I'm not about to go off and called you a "dickless fuckbag". Peace

I didn't mean to insinuate (though, by my wording, I can see how that is read) that Lincoln liked black people in the way you detail. I meant to say that Lincoln wasn't dumb enough to back that play.

don't flame me bro

You can go back in time and judge people based on their actions however you are ignorant if you hold them to the same standards as people are held today. Lincoln even back then was more civilized than people in countries across the world. Look at the savage parts of Africa or areas in the middle east.

What Lincoln did for the US was a good thing despite what he thought or felt and for that we should honor him. I'm sure if we found out MLK never received a real doctorate and was given an honorary one or that he plagiarized speeches that he made we would not look down on him due to his actions.



Quick brady delete this because it goes against your hatefull skewed view of the USA

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...irspamalot.jpg

I don't want anybody thinking I'm a moderator or anything.

I love Abe Lincoln.

My favourite thing he ever did was lead the raisin rebellion in rock opera form.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../CloneHigh.jpg

JFK helped too.

http://www.beltzner.ca/clonehigh/jfk-babble.jpg

"They're not gonna crush our freedom!"
-Captain Lavender (Abe Lincoln's Clone)

"ABE'S MY SLAVE NAME, SQUARE!"
-Captain Lavender(Abe Lincoln's Clone)

I like how you mock history as if you mean something to somebody enough to just sit in that arm chair of yours and mock away.

:tpg:

Not just me, right?

He just didn't "get" the internet.

I don't even sit in an armchair when I type out my Clone High references on the internets.

:(

:(

Epic fail

You've ruined so many dreams Deni, so many dreams ;__;

I know. I bring an end to all things wonderful and good and replace them with horrible truth.

I am a ruiner.

I am why we can't have nice things.

Obviously we must erect an armchair of epic proportions. From which you can preach the truth. Lucifer might get involved.

I say he was a great president because he was able to steer the country through a time of war that split the nation in two.

So anybody notice all the proud Abe Lincoln memorial editorial cartoons after Obama's victory, I'm pretty sure Lincoln would be more stupefied than ecstatic.

I'm only enamored about Lincoln right now because of how fucking awesome he is in Fallout 3. =)

I also enjoy using pennies

Imagine how enamored you'd be with Fallout Lincoln if you had a mod that changed his head into a talking Honey ham with a beard and top hat.


President Honeyham Lincoln... great leader of a man? Or a great tasting slab of ham?

I imagine that he'd have to be hickory smoked.

Fuck yeah! I blew off all of those slavers' heads then put one in his gigantic lap and was all like "This is for you Mr. President."

Also lollin' pretty hard at that original article. Does anybody realize how badly Lincoln would have tanked if he had touted equal rights for blacks? Pretty much the same thing that would have happened if Obama had stated "I want to make gay marriage legal and I'm also going to let them fuck on the doorsteps of your child's elementary school."