Super Smash Bros. Brawl Tournament Discussion [I HAS A RULE SET. SIGN UP ALREADY]
 

For those of you wondering about the Super Smash Bros. Brawl Clans:

I HAVE A RULE SET FOR THE LEAGUE

4 STOCK, 8 MINUTES
ALL STAGES
ITEMS ON - LOW

STOP SAYING THIS IS COMPLICATED AND I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING SET IN STONE. I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR THE PAST TWO PAGES.

I'll make an announcement in VG root for this.

I wouldn't mind arranging the round robin stuff for "preliminations" before we get to the clan stuff. I.E. determining the top players. (since it was my idea...figure it'd be easy since everything is planned out in my mind)

Please do so. The more help I could get with this the better.

Well..the main request I have is that who ever wants to enter pm either you or me so we know whats going on

I was just thinking of another sign-up thread, and just as precautionary measure, they re-post their Friend Code and the name they'll be using in tournament (not the profile name, the one that floats above your head).

And for CN (should he check this thread), I think it would be a better idea instead getting your brother to register to GFF, you should just post up the in-game name that he's using so we can associate the difference between you two.

I'll probably send both your match up, along with your brother's, in the same PM or something like that.

My only suggestion is that we have players commit to having a lag-free connection (i.e. random matchups are generally lag-free for them) so that we don't have issues with it during the tournament. I don't know if we can completely avoid lag but we can at least try.

At most, lag to a minimum. I'll attempt to do something with my connection since I'm aware that it's a little wonky whenever I play, but I can't make any promises. :(

And first order of business, how do you people wanna fight these matches? Stock? Timed? Combination of both?

I've always been accustomed to the classic 3 stock survival matches. Of course the one draw back is the time limit not being there. But for small stages like Battlefield and Final Destination I don't think it's necessary.

I don't think there's much we can do about the lag, cheezeman. At best we can remind everyone to turn off any p2p programs and if possible, tell players to optimize their router settings. There is also investing into something like a LAN adapter for a more stable connection. But I don't think it will help everyone with their connection issues. Part of the problem is with Nintendo's (free) online service.
As for me, my connection has been pretty good overall. And I'm in Hawaii =D

I'm fine with any, actually...stock, time, it's all good for me. I do like 5 stock matches in particular, but Starman says that's way too long for people to wait before joining and I see his point.

You mentioned 4 stock 8 minutes. That's fine with me.

Life: 4 stock 8 minutes is a good balance, so I'd stick with that.

Stages: All available...I see no reason to ban any of them. I dunno if you're doing best of 1 or best of 3, so I'll leave it at that.

Items: All on. Anytime I played Melee against this one friend of mine, he bitched about items being on and started a trend with our group. The last couple of years of Melee I played have been without items, but we started doing random characters since picking characters got boring after a while. Long story short, I believe they should be on but I'm fine with anything as long as you keep the Smash Balls in there.

Characters: As far as character selection, I'm fine with picking or random as long as none of the characters are banned.

So we'll just finalize that we're doing 4 stock, 8 minute matches. As I mentioned before, the 8 minutes is just so we don't get people camping somewhere too long or make the matches longer than they need to be.

Characters, we'll finalize that we don't need to ban anyone. I don't see any reason to. Even with Falco's infinite laser and Fox's Wall Shine, it's all dependent on rhythm, which could easily be broken both ways.

I'm fine with the current setup right now (nothing ban!) as long I can use the paper fan and Brawl in Spear Pillar. :tpg:
The whole point of this game tourney is to have fun, right? XD

Oh, I didn't even tell my brother about this! I'll talk to him tonight after AI... >_>

I'll probably just keep items on (even if they are unpredictable as hell) since everyone seems for them. I don't really mind half of them, but my question is will all the items on stage contribute to some of the lag? I doubt it, but it's still a question burning into my skull.

I'm only fighting for some stages being banned for this tournament, particularly Rumble Falls, Mario Bros., Flat Zone 2, Hyrule Temple, and Big Blue.

Rumble Falls - Scrolling stages suck. Period. Those little spikes on the stage don't really help much either.

Mario Bros. - The stage itself is very restrictive and the enemies running around could do a serious number on you. I don't think anyone wants to be KOed at 12% just because someone threw a (giant enemy) crab when you were standing at the side of the screen.

Flat Zone 2 - Particularly the same reason as Mario Bros. Restrictive stage, not fun being KOed at 12%, and those fucking zoo keepers. :mad:

Hyrule Temple - I just hate big stages and people will just camp out at the bottom to prevent being killed.

Big Blue - Lots of camping, and sucks being KOed because you landed on the road. The stage itself is horribly unpredictable.

I can't say my peace on 75m since I haven't unlocked it yet. And I don't particularly mind anything else on the banned list, so I'm all for them in the tournament.

What about New Pork City? That stage is massive, too. I'm not complaining or anything, I just want you guys to have a good time for this tourny.

Also, any chance of recording some of these matches? I mean, it might even things out to have everyone see each others' fighting styles in the prelim rounds. Plus, it would be entertaining for those of us not participating. =P

Oh yeah, I'm against that stage too. I thought I talked about it, guess I didn't.

New Pork City - Too freakin' big, and having that monster thingy walking around doesn't help much either. You run into him, almost an instant KO.

Additional Spam:
I would, but I haven't the foggiest idea how. <_<

At the end of every match on the result screen you have the option to record a replay by pressing the Z button (provided the match wasnt super long)

Super long being more than 3 minutes, lol.

But it was just a suggestion anyway, not something that really affects the tournament overall.

Yeah if we were to record the matches we'd have to keep it to a 3 minute max time limit. Unfortunately that's not very much time.
I don't think we should necessarily "ban" stages, but maybe pick a certain stage for each round? That way everyone would be on the same playing field each round. We could even vote on which stage we want for each of the rounds.

Rumble Falls suffers from the same problem that Icicle Mountain in Melee did...it just sucked horribly with its scrolling upward. The only difference is I'll play Rumble Falls because some of the music in it you can't listen to on any of the other stages unless you put it in a custom stage (Bramble Blast, King K.Rool/Ship Deck 2).

Hyrule Temple - Though it's one of my favorite stages, I can see why it would be banned. Though I have to admit, it's pretty hilarious when you get people down in that one area and you try to see how high the damage percentage can go before you go flying off. I think I got a little over 300% before you go flying off in Melee.

Oh, I'm aware of that, I meant recording actual game footage. Like the videos people upload to YouTube and stuff... That kind of thing.

And I finally got all the stages, so now I can throw in my two cents on 75m:

75m - I hate this fucking stage. That spring bouncing around doesn't help either. BANHAMMER ON THIS STAGE. :mad:

Awww..too scared about getting up+smashed into the spring? LoL

Keeps popping out of nowhere whenever I'm on the top tier. I only had to play on it once to determine how much I hate this stage.

And my personal ban list for the tournament:

Rumble Falls
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Hyrule Temple
Big Blue
New Pork City
75m

Just seven stages out of the 41. Agree to ban these? Disagree? Argue with me, dammit.

Actually, from what I've seen/experienced it only happens when DK appears out of the background

I'm just not fond of the stage design either... I could sense a lot of people camping on this one also.

It's hard to argue against that :tpg:.
I'm pretty much in complete agreement with those stage being banned. Mostly because I hate scrolling stages and humongous stages like New Pork City. I'm impartial to Flat Zone 2 and 75m though. Mostly because they're unique by design. I can also see why many players would hate playing on it too. So either way, I'm cool with it.

You might want to consider Rainbow Cruise from Melee as well. Last time I checked, it was a scrolling stage as well.

If people feel that scrolling stages should be banned, then Mushroomy Kingdom and Rainbow Cruise are out of contention also. I don't mind Mushroomy Kingdom as much, since I do like the stage, but Rainbow Cruise and the disappearing platforms are hard as hell to deal with.

Both are counterpick stages, as was Rainbow Cruise in Melee.

I don't mind Mushroomy Kingdom because you keep moving forward, which isn't that much of a pain. Going up a stage is a different story, though. It puts the heavier and slower characters (Bowser for example) to really work at keeping up without dying. Mushroomy Kingdom goes at the right pace, so that makes up for it.

Yeah, I'm all for banning Rainbow Cruise if everyone agrees to it. I particularly like Mushroomy Kingdom, so I'm all for that being in our tournament. There's a nice handful of heavy characters I like using. Rainbow Cruise doesn't help their cause. :(

Rainbow Cruise: Yes? No?

I'd say take the ban off from temple. In melee that was my favourite stage. I think the big stages are fun in their own way. It lets you plan things out and gives you a safe spot to 'hide' in hoping for an HP item to drop :P I s'pose I'm okay with the other bans though..

However, I think the randomness of the stages adds to the fun tremendously. Being KO'd at 12% sucks yeah, but it adds to the fun of the game. It's supposed to be random. If you wana play for just skill, all items off, all stages cept final destination allowed and there you go. Smash is about the levels, and the items, and the big chaotic mess it all makes. (My two cents)

((Also means I'm in this too when it gets started))

I guess you meant "all stages cept final destination banned".

Anyway, yeah, I think the whole concept of banning is silly. Every tournament you hear about out there is the usual "no items" blather. On one hand it may lend to a more skilled and precise environment, but on the other it just seems kind of... boring. Smash is kind of unique in that it uses items and non-traditional stages, but it's the only game I know of where people insist on removing content.

Once again suggesting that things of this nature can simply be hashed out between the two competing parties before the match. Both fine with any stage? Then any stage goes. Both feel like a certain stage sucks? Then they can agree on which ones to not use. Just putting a ban on certain stuff seems kind of restrictive.

Second the unban for Temple :(

As for Rainbow Cruise, I'd say ban. It's a great stage, but sometimes you can't keep up with the scrolling.

I wish Mushroomy Kingdom didn't take place in a yucky desert though. I don't mind having that in the tournament.

I think using no items does make for a fairer fight. My sister and I played Melee with no items for years, but if people want items for the tournament, I'm fine with it. Think the bomb should be banned though.

I'm in. Don't care what the rules are, but I will throw my "no items" vote in. I've always played that way and i think it makes things more fair that way.

I understand about how banning does feel a bit restrictive on gameplay, but along with it being fun, I at least want the battles to be fair in a sense that it's gonna take 10 minutes to KO one life out of you.

My argument on keeping Temple banned is that slower characters will have some sort of disadvantage with chasing down your opponent. Since we're running this with 4 stock, 8 minutes, I don't want someone getting a win without earning it. I just don't want them camping out the whole time and letting them get their win by just standing there. Pretty much why I'm against using this stage.

Earn your wins, dammit. :mad:

I am honestly amused at how much content one must strip away from a game to make it "fair" for all users.

You're right though, how dare people use a stage's layout to their advantage! How dare you try to be strategic about your character's placements?

This annoys me in first person shooters as well. All stages should be perfect circles so there are no corners to hide in and everyone's on a perfectly level playing field with the best guns. Fuck, y'know, coming up with counters.

None of you guys are good enough to be tourney level players, so it's not like you'll all be untouchable if you use a stage layout to your advantage. It's not like Brawl wasn't designed from the standpoint of leveling the playing field for JUST THIS PURPOSE and all that, I forgot.

What do I know though? I'm not participating in this. Kinda glad I don't have the time with school, now, though.

Good lord why am I starting this argument. It's not like this party game is a true fighter. I just hope that whatever you guys end up deciding on is fun for everyone involved and doesn't end up with anyone annoyed or exclusded or not signing up or anything. I am kinda surprised that we're no better than those we've hated on for so long though. Le sigh.

I am, at least, appreciative of the discussion going on instead of having one person decide all the rules and some people being sadface with it. Bravo for that, Chaotic.

This is one of the reasons I think it should be banned.

The last thing we'd need is two people both at 150% sitting and waiting for ages.

Then again that is what the time limit is for

I might just be playing Devil's Advocate here, but a win is a win pretty much (unless illegal hax is going on (in which case I don't believe there's anything to worry about here)). If they KO someone and then hightail it for the rest of the match... well, that's their prerogative isn't it?

If both sides agree that they don't want to deal with that, then they can hash it out beforehand. Otherwise... let it be! There's a time and stock limit anyway.

I agree...Heres what I'm thinking...if we want to record everything

Best out of 3
3 stock - 3 minute matches
Random Stage
All Items on (Low setting)

If no recording

4 stock 8 minute match.
Random Stages
All Items on (Low)


Also since we're GFF and not a group of tourney hunters, why not just leave all the stages on...It'll let us use our strategies a bit more and if people want to camp, then thats their problem.

I've had worse situations. One time I actually had to fight for MLG Tournament Standard Rules to be the standard.

A friend and I were running a tournament a couple months ago at the high school I graduated from. I drop by for one of the clubs to help out since it just started last year, and I'm the only graduate with enough free time to go back. Anyway, the idea of a Melee tournament was brought into play since the club made it's staple with video game tournaments. I was talking to my friend whom I was planning this with and he argued with me that we would only be doing two stock matches, Final Destination only.

I honestly wanted to slap him for it, because that falls even below the standards of Casual Smashers. Even the Beginning Smashers play with more restriction that that. I did, however, understand where he was coming from on this, since:

1. We were doing this during after school hours (which range from 2:30 to 4:00)
2. We only had two days to pull this off.

I had to fight him for using JUST neutral stages and more than two stock. Eventually we got to using Neutral Stages (Final Destination, Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium, Fountain of Dreams, and Dreamland [N64], we removed Yoshi's Story... No one really liked that stage) and 3 stock, 3 minutes.

I was dissatisfied with the tournament (since everyone in the tournament were stupid dipshits. For Christ's sake, someone used Mewtwo. o_o), but we messed up on the first day, so we had to rush EVERYTHING in the second day.

But I've dealt with worse situations. I was on the same end as you guys are now with trying to debate with which stages should be put in a tournament, so I'm completely understanding of you guys defending certain stages. I still don't feel that Temple should be used, but if the majority rules in it's use, then so be it. I've said my peace and feel free to disagree.

But we're doing this March Smashness tournament so we can determine clan leaders so we could possibly start this league up next month. Do we really want a clan leader who camped his way to a victory position? But if we do want to record EVERY match for this tournament, I suppose I'll be alright with the 3 stock, 3 minutes thing. What format are the videos saved in anyway? But if we do you use this, then Temple is definitely banned since it will probably take you two minutes to just knock one stock off of someone.

Well, the way I plan on running the Round Robin..the person would have to do a HELL of a lot of camping.

http://www.gamingforce.org/forums/mu...tml#post584882

I made (^) This thread so we can at least get whos participating in

This may sound kinda too complicated and silly...might ruin the tournament aspect but I've always want try this. Back when melee came out I developed a sort of Smash Bros "Risk" which ended up not working because using the handicap levels for enemy values in each stage was way too unfair.

Buuuuuut since we're having clans(we are still making them right?) and we're discussing stages...what if each clan owns rights to a particular set of stages. If another clan wants a stage they dont have they can challenge the owner by fighting on it. Maybe eventually "capturing" all the stages determines which clan wins.
Kinda destroys the tourny ladder...but...just an idea.
If you really wanted to go crazy you could make a map so only bordering stages can be attacked. This way there can be a little more interaction between clan mates, deciding which stages to attack, who to defend. Mmm strategy.

I actually think with more refinement it could work.

Again, offering an outside perspective here, but fuck, immp, you rule. That is an AWESOME idea, and while a good deal of work, it could potentially be far more interesting.

(This is why I <3 you guys. Give it a little time and you guys shit out Gold. AWESOME.)

It's interesting, but it could be a nice side thingy to the tournament and league matches.

I guess we could do this during the off-season of the Brawl League. I like the idea of it though.

immp for the win on that idea.

I missed the last few days... Can someone fill me in on this whole "clans" thing? Feel free to do it by PM so as not to spam the thread. Thanks :)

Actually, it'd probably be best if someone made a good summarizing post, as I've been trying to follow it and I was completely wrong about what was going down too.

I'll summarize it all up in a minute: I'll edit this post when I'm ready and add it to the first post also.

Here we go:

Hopefully after sign-ups, we can make an even amount of clans with odd members so this works out perfectly.

Slash, write up something for the round-robin tournament, I'm not exactly sure how you're doing this, so I trust you that we can make this work.

Sorry if this was mentioned and I missed it, but clarify something for me please:

what determines the makeup of these clans? Is it left up to ourselves to get organized (aka team with whoever you want), or is someone (Chaotic or Slash evidently) going to be splitting people up?

Basically the way I want to run the round robin is by first getting everyone to sign up for the tournament.

I'll refine this more tomorrow or something

Because people will probably want to camp or use certain strategies they can, I want to basically assign a point value

I.E. if its a 3 stock 3 minute match it'll work for each person
so for example
0 K.O.'s = 0 points
1 K.O.'s = 1 point
2 K.O.'s = 2 points
3 K.O.'s (Victory) = 5 points.

This way its not a "you lose you get nothing" sort of thing. This way someone can still possibly win even if they got screwed because of stage hazards.

But I also want it so that everyone can face one another. With the top X people (X being determined after we find out how many people enter the tournament)

But do we want to be able to record the matches as well? I wouldn't mind being able to watch all the matches after they happen

That... I still need to think about. I don't want anyone feeling too restricted, so I might just allow you to flock to whatever team you want. But I'm still on edge about how successful that would be. I don't want someone ending up on a team that they don't want to be on because the clan was full up or something...

Maybe I might do a random draw thing. I'll number the remaining players and the clan captains will randomly draw numbers to compose their team. Just so everything is fair or something. I'll even allow trades to happen between clans.

I dunno, though. I'll think of something eventually.

.....

Who actually does that anyway except amateurs/idiots? I've played that stage with my sister tons of times in Melee and that situation has never occurred. Maybe we're just better players or something, but I doubt any GFFers would do something like that. Heck I had a fun match on that stage with several GFFers just a few days ago.

I'm going to really suck in the tournament, but I'll join anyway. My sister hasn't said anything about it yet.

P.S. I wonder if anyone else is going to get under the Wolf ava/sig bandwagon. I'm not a huge Wolf fan (I'm a Fox fan) but I must admit he looks cool in Brawl.

I so couldn't help saying this...

We're so going to be like the fucking NBA lol.


But I kind of like the idea of a draft or something. I dunno. First we gotta see how many people would be down for this whole thing

You probably never had timed stock matches then. When time is tossed into play at Temple, shit hits the fan.

P.S. Funny how you complained about him prior to the Brawl release. :3:

Additional Spam:
Yeah, but the NBA doesn't choose numbers out of a hat, just to see who they drafted. For draft picks, yes. For the players themselves, no. :3:

immp got propped a page back for the awesome idea he had...that needs to happen. ^_^

Also, I want the unban of Temple as well. I was a little iffy about it at first because it's a big stage but I love it as opposed to New Pork City.

But when that happens, the other players know it and the guy at 150% knows he's about to get bum rushed. See, it just adds to the fun mess that is smash. You think the fighters are going to let some random sit in a far corner and let him stay there? I'd go and try to kill him for the point. Relentlessly chasing him down with the rest of the players :P

I'll just quote from SmashWiki on why I want and why Temple is banned from competitive play:

I'm no high level player, but they do have a point. o_o

So because of the quirks of the stage, zomg you die faster on the side then going up, they drop the ban-hammer on it? The whole point is to know where you stand on each stage and how you're going to play. but hey, if it suits the 'high level players' by all means, play on completely flat stages with no depth. (y)

I think, for peace of mind, I'd like to avoid any references to smashboards/whatever in the discussion of rules and whatnot. Not that I'm vehemently anti-tourneyfaghardcore brawler, but GFF is GFF and smashboards is smashboards. I mean, death lines? What the hell?

Given that there's already been a fair amount of dissent towards banning stages, it should be apparent that we think a bit differently in regards to some things. We'll do things our ways.

Besides, let's say someone truly is a really lame player. If the community wills it, just blackball 'em from participating. Being exclusive is of course a longstanding GFF tradition.

I'd rather plan on completely flat stages with no depth. At least then I could earn my kills on you. I don't see how it's fun hiding in the Fight Club anyway. There's no skill involved with that. The whole point of the Clan Leaders Tournament is to see who's the best and who will be able to be a Clan Leader. I don't really find it acceptable if someone got to that position by hiding a good majority of the tournament.

If Slash plans to run the Clan Leaders Tournament with 3 stock, 3 minutes, Temple is completely out of the question anyway. It takes at least 1:30 to get a kill and with someone who has bad vertical play, probably even longer. You could probably go the whole match with neither player getting killed. Time will run out by then.

And Saka, I completely understand the whole avoidance of trying to mention Smashboards or any place like that, but they just said what I'm thinking the best anyway (btw, death lines are the KO points in the arena). I want everyone to have fun in this tournament, even if they are lame, but I'm just REALLY fighting for Temple to be banned because that stage pretty much brings the lameness in everyone. People are going to stay on the bottom. People are going to do their best job dodging by running away. People are gonna choose fast characters just for the sake of that purpose.

I wanna avoid those situations while we still can.

At least everyone else isn't fighting too hard about the other banned stages (at least I think so <_<)... This is pretty much the only one that seems to be fought for a lot.

A review of some of the major ideas:


PROPOSED RULES

BANNED STAGES

Did I get all of that?

So... we're allowed to switch characters in the middle of a tourney? I kind of figured we'd have to stick to one character for the entire duration.

I'm fine with the rules either way as long as I get to pick "Random" as a character. Heh.

Yeah, I wasn't gonna force anyone to stick with the same character. Tourney people have mains, but since they play best of 5 matches, they're allowed to change characters.

So why not be able to do this here?

And Kesubei, yeah, pretty much for the most part. Temple is still under debate though and I'm not sure whether or not people wanted Rainbow Cruise in also... Yes? No?

Bleh, I forgot about Rainbow Cruise. As someone said earlier it is a heavy/slow character's worse nightmare. I vote to leave it out, since you know, I have a bias against fighting on scrolling stages ;).

Just a recap on what I think should be out of the picture:
Rainbow Cruise
Rumble Falls
Mario Bros.
Hyrule Temple
Big Blue
New Pork City

Again, I'm neutral on these two:
75m
Flat Zone 2

People who list off a bunch of characters or stages are just picky and want to play the game to their advantage.

"This one plays to people who smash up, this one plays to those who smash sideways. This one's terrain changes, that one's size is too big."

You can't say that certain maps are unfair because they cater to one chracter or another. This is why you just play them all. Pick random. If you want to be pathetic about it afterwards, tell everyone the reason that you lost the tournament is because it only gave "heavy character" stages and you were light.

The only rule adjustment that I'm okay with is "no items."

Lukage, the idea behind tournament rules is to make things fair for everyone. Believe it or not. Which is probably the one aspect about a tournament scene worth noting that gets lost when you have a community run by retards or scrutinized by non-participants. Gotta love people who insist on playing with tourney rules in non-tournament environments. Again, I find it interesting that most people who hate the tournament scene aren't participants in the first place and really only came to feel that way when either one magical player in their life tried to thrust them into that playstyle like an asshole... or they were just getting sensationalized along with everyone else who just reads about it.

Which it why it partly baffles me that we're somewhat against tournament rules in a tournament setting. o_o

Smash Bros. is an anomaly for "fair", Chaotic. Because the game is pretty much fun to some people because it's a gigantic randomizer. It's meant to be massive chaos when played with many features. When you start to take away from that formula as a player who plays for realz, you step on the toes of other players. My only gripe is that if you aren't playing in the tournament fag tournaments... don't fucking worry about them, then.

If you were playing any game other than Smash Bros, you probably wouldn't be in this situation. The way it looks, at the moment, it's hard to decide what's fair to anyone here other than "Anything goes."

You're confusing the meaning of tournament setting here. This is a friendly competition between GFFers on a non-Smash focused, general purpose video game board. This isn't, as has been said ad-infinitum before, Smashboards or any other (and I use the term jokingly) "serious" Smash competitive forum. I would not say this is one and the same.

alright, this is the way I see it.

We're not following smashboards equation for tournaments. From what I understand, we want to have a fun and insane tournament that will be fun for all and non restricting.

If you do not like the rules we're discussing give you're input and don't start comparing this idea we're doing to other tournament rules or whatever.

If you don't want to discuss it, click your back button.

The only stage I think should be banned is Mario Bros. Now if you could "float" through the floors I wouldn't be so against it.

PROTIP: MATCH THESE CUUUUUUUUUH-RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY-ZEEEEEEEEE FAGS UP AND CALL IT ANYTHING GOES!

Just trying to help the cause, Slash. And honestly, you guys throwing in "Well, maybe just ban items" or "This ONE stage should be banned" aren't helping. Just follow the protip, play who you're going to play, and call it a day. Your job is insanely easy, Chaotic, you don't have tourney players here and everyone just really wants to have a good time with bracket structure. Give the people what they want.

That's the problem though, SOME people want certain stages gone, SOME people want them there.

I can't exactly call majority rules on anything when not everyone agrees with each other. That's the point of this thread though, so we can see what the people want in this tournament.

I would propose this...for the prelims/round robin I'd say all stages on, all items on Low. You'll get to pick stages, so keep that in mind with your character. And I want to possibly do it best of 3 so that you can't blame the stage on the loss.

Maybe we could do a sort of reward system where winning (or even losing) clans get to pick a new rule for the week.

For example, say my clan cleans up house and smacks the shit out of all you motherfuckers. For the following week, we get to decide on a new rule, such as, say, "no items except for smash balls" or "only play in X level"

We could reverse that and give rule-making priority to the clan that sucks the hardest so we can sort of level the playing field. What do you think?

But let's be honest, Rotor. I could make my job easy by enforcing rules one way or the other, but arranging ANYTHING in a video game tournament is never easy. There's always going to be one opposing side to what's enforced and in return, that's going to scare off some participants because the tournament isn't being run a certain way.

I don't wanna run a tournament where I'm gonna be dissatisfied with the way it's being run. I want to maximize participants while maximizing satisfaction by letting the participants themselves speak so we could have a tournament that everyone could be happy with.

This is what I get for not refreshing, but this is what I needed to see. Sprout, I love the idea. We'd probably give rule priority towards the last place clan. That way, the people speak, and everyone (I guess) will be satisfied. What does everyone else think about his idea?

Glad you dig the idea.

Ideally, we would do anything goes for the first round. There's nothing unfair about that. After week 1, the last place clan chooses a new rule that stays into effect for the duration of the week. However! What happens if the same clan gets to pick a rule 2 or more consecutive weeks in a row?

I have an idea for that, in the form of a rolling rule system. Check out this scenario:

- Clan A loses week 1. For week 2, Clan A sets "Rule A," which remains in effect for all of week 2.
- Clan A loses week 2. For week 3, Clan A KEEPS "Rule A" and also invokes "Rule B," both of which last all of week 3.
- Rinse and repeat until another clan loses.

I think this is easier than it sounds, and will make things fair, interesting, and above all, fun.

The question is, do we set guidelines for the rules? Or can the rules be whatever the hell they want? I vote for whatever the hell they want. Keeps shit interesting and keeps all the other clans on their toes.

As long as there's majority agreement in how you want the tournament run, then the people in the minority will either have to deal with it or not play. If you guys are going to go ahead with your currently established ideas, that's great! As long as you can get a decent body of participants who also agree, this shit will get off the ground and the people who are playing are gonna have a hell of a good time.

That's what this is all about.

That's kind of why the tournament scene can keep going, even in the face of staunch criticism. Because they have a majority of people who will still support the cause, even if a few people here and there are butthurt about how some people want to play.

I kinda wish we could put sprouticus's idea and immp's idea together. Both add more than a little fun to this whole clan thing.

I agree with the banned stages so far, excluding Hyrule. I'm against scrolling stages and that includes Rainbow Cruise. Hyrule and New Pork City are big, but if we're just going to have three minute matches size shouldn't make much of a difference.

I'm fine with low item settings, but are you banning certain items? (healing items, hammers, etc.,)

Most people want them on.

And three minute matches? Yes, size matters. Have fun chasing down your opponent in New Pork or Hyrule on a three minute time limit.

Do you guys want me to implement a poll about this? It might be easier to track what the general consensus is, then.

Oh, please do so. After 4 pages, we'll just go over what EVERYONE wants again. Just starting with rules... Do we want to record everything, or not...

Then items... Stages... The whole kit and kaboodle.

LoL Sounds like you're a bit bitchy chaotic lol.

But I seriously don't even remember what people want anymore

It's been a long day, but I'm not even sure where we all stand on this, so it's just best to slap a poll on this baby to see what everyone wants and then we can start to finalize this.

I like Sprout's idea =D
It's kinda like the law cards from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance. Only more fun.
I don't know if you guys also want to incorporate wackier rules like:
- Rule A: Bob-ombs items only!
- Rule B: No Pokemon allowed (this includes the characters, stages and items.)
- Rule C: 8-bit mode (character and item selection is limited to characters originating from the 8-bit era.)

But yeah, doing something like that could prove fun.

Even wackier, each participant throws in some sort of rule card that we use throughout the league. Each week, the last place clan chooses two cards. These rules would be in effect for the next week.

I like where this idea is going. :3:

I can only do one poll per thread at a time, but I'll make it a multi option poll. Pick one option PER TOPIC, a'ight?

If someone fucks up, we'll have to not account for them in the poll.

Well, we'll just start with rules right now:

It's either:

Recording Option: 3 stock, 3 minutes
Non-Recording Option: 4 stock, 8 minutes
Other (Please notify)

Hold on, I'm playing around with this. I don't have a direct ability to add polls to existing threads. I am going to play around with my merge fuctions.

Sorry if I blow something up while I'm doing this. >_>

I like how I can't add a poll. Fuck.

God damn I like that. What I was going for was the losing clan making up ANY rule, but the idea of "rule cards" is definitely awesome.

Guys, seriously, we NEED to keep this shit as SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE. Skills, your help is a godsend, but adding a poll to what we have here is just going to add confusion.

PROPOSAL:

First week of the tournament, ANYTHING GOES. After that, "Rule Cards" take effect.

Simple, effective, everyone wins.

Ya dig?

Agreed for the proposal, it would cause the least amount of headaches for chaotic at this point...I hope.

I totally agree with that. Items are affected by this also, but just more importantly since this seems to be the big thing.

3 stock, 3 minutes or 4 stock, 8 minutes?

Once we get this settled, I think we can get the ball rolling.

I vote for 4 stock/8 minutes.

Added a little manual poll in the first post. I too vote for 4 stock, 8 minutes.

I don't see much reason to go for shorter matches for the sake of recording it. So I'll vote 4 stock/8 minutes too.

I don't know about you guys, but my performance deteriorates as time goes on-- my thumbs get tired and my eyes water. Not only is 3/3 good for recording matches (seeing as I'd be interested in receiving other people's recordings), but it'd be good for not being too drawn out.

I'd like to see three lives, three minutes.

Well, I would like to see 3 lives 3 minutes (and i did mention it would be a best of 3 matches anyways) because that way people cant go "hurhurhur!!! The stage is why i lost"

Put my vote down for the 3 stock/3 minutes option. That option offers less of a chance that lag/unintentional disconnects interrupt a match. Also, I'm interested in seeing some replays.

Just on the 4 stock, 8 minutes. Matches NEVER usually last that long, the 8 minutes is usually just a safety cushion for the 4 stock. It would seem a little challenging to attempt at KOing someone with only 3 minutes on the clock. Meaning, you would have to beat up someone in less than a minute in order to finish with a Game Set.

Well, the online matches I've played with it went to about 5 minutes having 4 people in there with 5 stock...so if you think about it...it could actually last longer depending on the strategies used.

I also created the (3 stock/3 min(best of 3)) idea with the factor that it'll make people go with full force. If they wanna KO once then run thats there call (which is why I have the point set up that I did. But I can also adapt it over to the 4/8 if it comes down to that

I've gone up to 20 minutes on a 5-stock match with my friend in Melee, so I don't doubt that two skilled players like us could drain the clock rather easily. 8 minutes is a good cushion, I'd say.

I don't see what's so difficult about just going "anything goes, but if players want specific bans/rules/what-have-you they can discuss it before their match." For example, team A and team B are scheduled to fight. Team B haaaaaaates stage Y and asks A if it's okay to skip it if it comes up. A says "that's cool" and the world moves on. I don't see how it gets any more simple than that.

Seriously, you guys keep saying "keep it simple" and all, but you also keep adding (interesting but undoubtedly complicating) ideas like "rule cards" or whatever. Which is it gonna be?

Because maybe there is a person in Team B who we can call Player Z who wants to play on Stage Y instead of stage X but the rest of the people, Player J, Player K and Player L don't like stage Y because Stage X is a better stage than stage Y while Player Z is extremely good at Stage Y and has a great strategy to use against Team A that want to play on stage X.

Or in other words, we can keep it simple, but make it interesting by adding our little rule cards in...which could make it interesting say one card is Items on high but the only one allowed are bob-ombs

That's a lot of letters, Slash.

But Saka, stages are randomized themselves also. Once the two players choose a stage, one stage is chosen out of the two and the players fight on there.

As Slash said, we wanna keep this simple, but I want this to be unique also. With sprout's idea, we can make these weekly battles more interesting by making them even more unpredictable with the implementation of the rule cards. They're basically the voice of the participants and each week, two voices are randomly heard. I honestly don't think that anyone has ever implemented a system like this in a tournament, so it could be interesting when it finally takes effect.

No one seems heavily against them and if everyone agrees to them, then we can finally get the ball rolling with this tournament.

Your example is really very unnecessarily complicated. Last I heard, clan matches were just a series of 1v1s so as long as the two players duking it out can agree, then it's all good.

Also the idea of rule cards adding in a random element seems to contradict all the other tourney-style rules considered (banning certain stages, items on low, etc) for a less random/more fair environment. Or did we get past that?

I had no intention of my example being real.

But we are making this fun and innovative. We were thinking that the rule cards don't have to explicitly ban a certain thing, but could instead say "This stage gets reopened" or something of the nature.

I guess the word "rule" can be a bit constricting eh? How about..."Weekly requirement" cards lol

Well, I thought it's there to more or less solve what we're trying to decide on. Going the card rule route would mean everything aside from match duration is fair game. But what makes it interesting is that (losing?) clans gets to choose the following week set of rules. Whatever rules that were used before would be replaced, I assume.

Though I am up for your suggestion of simply keeping everything unmodified for the first week. This will let everyone know what they will generally agree on banning certain stages, items or whatever. At least I hope so.

Or weekly laws!

Nevermind. :tpg:

I'm up for 4 stock/8mins.
I was thinking it'd be possible to make use of the banned stages in Brawl "risk". Clans have the option to pick one of the banned stages if they feel they can use it well. It'd be placed at the back of the line, sort of last territory to be taken. Adding the difficulty, randomness or hugeness of the stage would improve their odds of keeping it. Since it'd always be their last territory it'd be like a second chance to come back if they were quickly wiped out. Hopefully this would keep clans from being knocked out really early in the campaign.

So basically you agree with what I said while also insulting me, implying that I don't play the game (I will assume this based on the fact that I have not added you guys to my friend list). The more restrictive rules, the less fair it is.

Hey guys, just a suggestion here. Since you're making clans and stuff for this tournament, I think some doubles matches can also be done between groups. Also, make it a scoreboard style so that it's not tournament elimination, so that works as a way to keep the knocked out groups entertained, while providing a sort of competitive flavor around.

As a side note, the law card idea is awesome, but that just reminded me of the FFTA laws like "No Swords" and whatnot. No B button attacks anyone? =P

Uh, no, I disagree with your reasoning entirely and to infer I do agree with you is more of an insult than anything I've mentioned previously. And I didn't insult you, you're trying to read into things that aren't there. I made a general statement, if you feel it applies to you, then perhaps you should be evaluating yourself and how you feel about this issue.

You're generalizing. Tournament rules are formulated to even the playing field, not to "restrict it to the advantage of certain players."

How are we going to factor in play times? Are the two combatants just going to discuss in private and figure out what works? I know that my free time varies, but I'm always available late at night (11PM EST and on).

I vote for 3 minutes, 3 stock. I wanna see replays.

Hmm, that'd be interesting, but I think it would be better if we kept banned stages out completely. People are already talking about how complicated things are getting and adding the possibility of 'banned stages that may not be completely banned' just adds to the complexity.

...Not sure if that came across as well as I would have liked.

I'm torn between 3/3 and 4/8 because I don't mind either... but I guess I like recording the match so I'll choose 3/3.

As for everything else, for the most part I don't know what's going on. Just keep it fun and insane like this (ignore the part where I won lol >_>).

immp's SSBB Risk is a completely different side project. o_o

The idea was tossed up, but I don't actually think we're implementing it into the league battles or anything.

But for anyone who still doesn't get how I wanna implement the Rule Card system...

Week One is finished, and here are the standings:

Incredible Crisis: 10 pts. [1-0] [Incredible Crisis win all 5 of their matches in a sweep]
Weeaboos: 6 pts. [1-0] [Weeaboos win in a 3-2 match]
Warp Stars: 4 pts [0-1] [Warp Stars lose in a 2-3 match]
Drill Dozers: 0 pts [0-1] [Drill Dozers get sweeped in all 5 of their matches]

Oh! The Drill Dozers are in last place. They get to choose two rule sets randomly out of the pool or rule sets!



The Drill Dozers would send a PM into me choosing two numbers between 1 and 6. In this case, let's say, they chose 3 and 6.

In this case, next week's rule set would be restricted to only using Melee Characters and Brawl Stages.

Something like that. Although, just to prevent two rule sets from contradicting each other, I'll probably seperate all the rule sets in to categories (items, stages, characters)...

~~~~~~~

Yay, another edit.

Anyway, I was talking to Slash a little while ago. He said that he wanted to use the 3/3 rule set for his tournament. Just so whoever earns the clan leader positions can look back on these videos and then review who they want to draft for their clans and stuff... Since he has that point system that gives you points based on how many KOs occured, his system works for that kind of thing.

Following the tournament, we could either switch to the 4/8 or stick to the 3/3. Keep in mind, we have to account for lag that happens during league matches. Should we have only 3 minutes, the lag could get a little shaky and you might/might not be able to get a KO off in time. I'm not basing my system off on how many KOs you get, but rather who wins the matches themselves (in a best of 3 match). So as of now, the poll is for the league matches. If anyone needs to reconsider, please do so.

But if you wanna keep the 3/3 format for the League matches, so be it. I might even reconsider. Who knows?

Player B, C, and Z all want to play Fox only, no items, Final Destination, but Stage T and Items Q, F, and Z are requirements that team J all really want. So how do we fix this situation? We have a rule card where Team J can say Item Q is turned on, but only with Item J isn't and the rule card is nullified if the other team plays an anti-Item card. All Team J has to do is pull Card 8 out and use that to nullify the anti-Item card and also turn on Game Mode P. After that, character K, M, and Z aren't usable because to use them one of the teams had to play the Tier 4 Characters card.

Speaking of which, is Metaknight or Kirby Tier 3? Metaknight could be Tier 4 because his Up+B isn't all that good but some people might have mastered it so we'd have to move it to Tier 3 because he's actually better than we thought so it can be more fair to the people who only know how to use Fox.

Oh, and before I forget, you should also make sure that everyone gets the last right of lag refusal. Any and all matches can be nullified if someone feels they lagged for longer than .5 seconds at any point during the match, unless it's on Final Destination, where any lag is unacceptable and nullifies the match entirely and it has to be replayed.

And one more thing, if Character K...

YOU ARE THINKING TOO MUCH. THIS IS A GAME, NOT A GOVERNMENT RESEARCH PROJECT. STOP ELIMINATING VARIABLES.

Additional Spam:
You know what's fun and innovative? Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

You know what's a clear indicator that people are too insecure to admit that their inability to win every match DOESN'T have anything to do with the features of the game and instead has to do with their insistence on learning one particular set of actions over and over? Setting so many fucking rules that 90% of the game is turned off.

I propose a Government Research Project on creating a video game tournament.

http://www.pacificislandbooks.com/JP...0Governing.jpg

:forscience: :forscience: :forscience: :forscience: :forscience:

While I agreed with and propped the hell out of your post, Mo0, I don't think the rule card thing is that complicated... I saw it less as a way to "eliminate variables" and more of a way to do things differently and keep things interesting throughout the duration of the tourney, while not succumbing to being complete fags.

The problem is we're getting tons of different opinions from tons of different people. "This is too complicated" or "we MUST ban these levels" and whatnot.

Chaotic, if you want to run this thing, you need to just set the rules, wipe your hands on your pants, and get this shit going. I think we need to honestly just close this clusterfuck of a thread, close the other sign-up thread, and make a brand new one that says "HERE ARE THE RULES, SIGN UP HERE"

No more bureaucracy, lets get this shit GOING!

Well, I wasn't really saying that the rule card thing WAS that complicated. I was just baffled by the use of 8 different letters to refer to different items. If you have to go beyond A, B, and C, your example/situation is TOO COMPLICATED.

I wholeheartedly think the idea is bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake, though. If your tournament has rules for determining rules, you've gone too far into the meta.

Sprout has the right idea. Man up, DECIDE on something, and start the tournament. Otherwise the discussion will fall into a Wikipedia administration-style endless loop of circlejerk.

Especially for something like this, the more opinions we get, the more time we wait for the actual tournament to start since we'll be too busy sifting through everybody's opinions and criticisms, no matter how valid they are.

Chaotic, I'm not trying to undermine you or say you're doing a bad job, but I definitely think you need to just cut the bullshit and say "here's what we're doing, fuckers" and if people don't agree, they can simply not do it and miss out on all the fun.

I'm just going to cross post this in here, as I posted it in Mo0's journal.

I'm extremely dismayed that we are 3 days and a A HUNDRED AND TWENTY POSTS into the damn thread and there's shit all to show for it.

Look, I'm really appreciative of the effort you're going to. It's community minded, you guys mean well, and I don't want to discourage organized play here, but this is...not working.

Jeez, fine.

League Format:

4 stock, 8 minutes
Items On - Low
All Stages

Happy? Forget the rule card system. Forget doing replays. We'll just do battles normally. We'll just run the rule cards in on another tournament. Don't like it? I tried, but everyone's getting at me for trying to make this a people's tournament.

Personally, I don't want items or certain stages on. People beg to differ, so I'll take a part of what I want, and a little of what everyone else wants.

:mad:

If you want me to record matches, please tell me some sort of program I could use or something, besides the replay system, since I'm finding it a bit restrictive.

Rome wasn't built in a day. How long was the interest held in that? I THREW THE MOTHERFUCKING PROTIP UP, YOU FAGS JUST HAD TO TRY AND SPICE THINGS UP.

Rome also wasn't a tournament involving less than 100 people in a medium that exists entirely for leisure.

Additional Spam:
The problem with making it a "people's tournament" is that no matter how many ways you give people to be in control of their own fate, someone is going to want more or less control. Like sprout said, the problem with trying to make a tournament that EVERYONE is happy with is that you have to balance 30+ people's opinions on almost 75 items, 30 stages, 30 characters, multiple ways of running a tournament, ways to handle lag, etc.

And like Skills pointed out, GFF is not really known for having people with long gaming attention spans. I would just love to see the tournament succeed before everyone moves on.

This thread is not a bad idea, but you guys seem to be applying more weight on input from Smashboards and other tourneyfag sources than the people actually posting in the thread. There simply is no need for that much planning for a friendly competition between GFFers. Did you even read Skills' post earlier in the thread?

Perfect. See? This is the sort of grabbing things by the balls that I was hoping for. Seems to be a good general consensus seeing as how people have responded, and it's simple.

Now all you guys need are some matches.

I fail to see how picking out which maps you don't like based on a bias towards one character (or type) is fair. I bet I could find on EVERY map an advantage that certain characters have. The only rule that works in terms of being "fair" is no items.

Oh for crying out loud, since when are items other than the Smash Ball unfair? They're an extra edge that ANY character can use.

I assume that the people making Smash Brothers aren't idiots. They made a kickass series of games, that make for hours of entertainment(if you aren'y a cockbrained picky assed twit anyhow). I imagine that they designed the items to be balanced. For every item, there is a way to avoid, or counter it. If someone is constantly killing you with a hammer, learn to avoid it. Don't go all 14yr old whiney bitch on people and requesting it be removed. Unless they really dropped the ball on Brawl, I would assume that they made the items just as balanced here too. Items are awesome, because when properly used, they make for some pretty hilarious occurences.

Well.. The Hammer is meant to be sort of a super-mega-kill item, so it's very tough to avoid. That's why people get all pissy about it... But hey, that's the game, so who cares.

You also have the risk of grabbing a dud hammer.

The gold dud hammer pissed me off the first time I got it. SQUEAKY HAMMER IS BAD.

It's not based on what anyone likes, Lukage. And that's what you don't understand. Final Destination is popular because it was a flat surface and no items means no surprises. No one picked it based on "Oh, I'm Fox so I'll kick ass on this stage", people realized how good Fox and Falco are on that stage based off it being the only goddamned stage they played on. It's just how things turned out with so much play dedicated to one area.

Again, I don't let the fact that Smash Bros is a game marred by several different interests blind me from the fact that tournaments are an investment with payoff given by how much people are willing to put in. If you guys just want to play NOW, just do matchmaking or some shit. Having a tournament "for fun" without any time investment defeats the purpose of having one in the first place. You might as well just organize games every weekend, because that seems to be all you need.

And Mo0, of course Rome wasn't deoxyribonucleic acid. Seriously, you're all going to get out of this what you put into it, so if you want it to happen RIGHT NOW then there's no investment there. I feel like I'm watching you guys sabotage the event right out the gate with the whole "Fuck this" attitude.

I appreciate the idea of "clans" picking random "rules", that shit sounds fun. I realize that interest to stick around might be fickle, so some of you are just gonna have to stick around then, now aren't you? Change and growth start at home, not with everyone else. If you don't like "tourneyfags", then don't be "those" people and don't concern yourselves with how they play. If you want to make a short little tournament, then that's exactly what you're going to get.

I think you give the attention span of players at GFF too little credit. You've all got to start somewhere. I realize there's backlash against the "tourneyfags"... but the fact of the matter is that no one here is playing them or has any inclination to play them. So stop worrying about things that don't even concern you and try to be constructive about this tournament. You're gonna get what you put in, lumps, bumps, waiting, and everything else that happens before we get this shit going.

tl;dr: You get what you put in, Lukage doesn't know about competitive play, LET'S DO OUR GANBARE BEST TO MAKE THIS HERE TOURNAMENT WORK.

I imagine people would probably be more receptive to the idea of more tourney-style rules being implemented here if there were actually some kind of worthwhile incentive to winning. "WEEK #1 SMASH CHAMPION" on GFF just doesn't cut it, I guess. :(

I hope you don't take my comments as being super anti-yadayada negative criticism. I do like ideas like the rule cards, after all. I think I mentioned I was just playing devil's advocate. But yeah, sry.

So... tournament winners = top x seeded players = head of x clans = drafting lower seeded players. Is that how it's going to work?

I think "I kicked all your asses" is incentive enough in this case, but that's just me. This is, first and foremost, about fun. There are some good ideas here, though. And I think given time, you can have a unique event for GFF rather than just "all items, all levels, let's go." That can be fun, too, don't get me wrong... but you guys can make this thing your own if you just give it time. Shit, make a sub-forum, have polls... it might seem ridiculous at first, but what could it really hurt?

It doesn't matter if anyone disagrees with me, because for the most part, aside from me talking to Lukage, this is really all just about trying to make a compelling argument for patience.

I'm still kinda thinking about it... I might just number everyone randomly and the clan leaders choose someone out of it...

Otherwise, we actually draft people. The lower seed winners choose first or something like that, and we repeat...

I'll think about it. o_o

BTW, Rotor, are you participating in this?

What's the argument against having people just form up their own teams?

Depends on when I'm no longer on lockdown. I own Brawl... no Wii yet, though.

Wait, so a good bit of the argument here is coming from someone who's not even participating? No offense to Rotor since I've got nothing against playing with tourney rules or normally, but let's just get this thing going. We'll do the first tournament and then if anything especially cheap/unfun happens we'll know what to fix the next time around.

And like Saka said, is there any reason why we can't form our own teams? Draft works fine too, but if certain people want to be in a clan together it seems silly to prevent that.

I imagine one reason might be the size of the clans. If it works out that there's only 4 per clan and some group has 5 people or some have 3, then there could be an issue of "you need to split up" or "you need to add someone." Kind of like grade school, eh?

But on the other hand, I think everyone could handle that sort of thing.

Look, I didn't want to come across as an outsider trying to impose my views, or anything. I flew into a nerdrage because I was watching a good idea get ruined by too much pussyfooting and not enough action, and didn't want to see anyone get disappointed.

Mitigating circumstances, pal.

I'm not saying you don't have a good reason for not being able to participate, but there's no point in getting up in arms about the rules until you can. Like Skills said back at post #120, we're at post #140 in this thread and it seems like we haven't made any progress at all. If we don't agree on some actual rules or lack thereof then this will never get off the ground like so many other good GFF events.

If you're talking, you're a target. As long as what I contribute is constructive, and if I am going to join in on your shenanigans there's no reason why I shouldn't have some influence early on.

So I'm out of town for a few days (sup Mickey), and I check in to see a 100+ post MARCH SMASHNESS thread? O_o

Whatever, I'm in, but I have no idea what's going on. I'll catch up when I get back, maybe... or just put me with someone who knows what's up and wants a guaranteed victory.

Team SM/Chicken Adobo/Magnolia Beverage Masters FTW

Well you should've mentioned that earlier before any of us started to get at you for butting in on something that you weren't even technically in yet. I probably would've flipped a shit on you if I didn't ask that question.

And I said this sometime before it got lost in the mess, but I might do the draft, I might not. Most likely, I'll let you choose your own teams since I really don't wanna seem unfair. I'm hoping is that all the good players won't all flock together. Nothing's worse than everyone not having a fair chance since that seems to be a big deal here. :mad:

What I'm trying to aim for in this is even teams, odd members... Hopefully we could at least hit 20 people in total for this tournament and league. Tournament might be a little off in seeding, but it will even out the teams pretty well, not leaving any team in a bye during any week. Should we get anyone over that, we're gonna have to boot to 30 so we could get the same result.

It's been mentioned elsewhere, actually. But again, you're not some fucking expert here on setting up a tournament. You're telling me you'd turn down constructive advise from a non-participant? That's extremely short sighted, man.

Well, I personally don't see the point of you debating the matter if you weren't gonna participate. I'd think you would just be instigating at that point.

I've run a tournament that was more restrictive than this and had at least 50 participants. I got less complaints out of them than I did with the 13 currently participating. Restrictive, but it was all in the sense of fairness. Everyone in that tournament thought it was fair, and everyone had fun with it. We only had used only 5 stages, but they were all stages that didn't interfere with the fighting going on and every piece of damage recieved was from your opponent.

With you bantering "Anything goes! Anything goes!", I have my own reasons for ignoring it the whole time. Since, one, you STILL technically aren't participating, and two, I've been in a tournament situation before, it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm more interested in what the participants have to say before someone comes barging in yelling your "Pro Tips"

In any sense, it is FAIR to have no items and ban certain stages and STILL have FUN. Most of the complaints I have been getting have been from people who aren't even participating (you, Skills, Mo0, Tails...), so I really never saw any point on listening to any of you guys since this isn't affecting any of you in any form or way. Complain all you want, but you're not the ones fighting here. Hell, I might even change my mind on the rules if some of these stupid debates are gonna go on.

I will ban the stages I mentioned, and I will turn items off. Don't like it at that point? Don't participate! I've tried to be nice about it, and since people want me to put my hand down, I will.

Oh geez. Lets get on with the "tournament" so I can bitch-paperfan-slap you guys!

Well, I'll wait for some more participants to sign up. If we can at least get 20, then we're good to start! And curse your paper fan, CN. I saw that video. :mad:

I'll just close this thread since the people who aren't participating are just gonna be the ones who keep bickering.

kthxbye.

(Thanks for deleting Saka's post. <_< I mean really. <_<)

I really don't see why this discussion needs to continue when I've pretty much said what I wanted to do in this tournament. I don't see any other discussion that needs to go on here.

The intent of this thread was supposed to be about the participants talking about what we wanted in the tournament. Instead, I end up seeing it become a breeding ground for everyone not participating calling us tourneyfags.

Honestly, looking through this thread. It was most of the non-participants that threw up most of the discussion about how we didn't need to ban anything. It wasn't until Page 3 that Lukage and Rotorblade decided to step in and start instigating on the situation and talk about how some how talking about what we want in a tournament is unreasonable.

Sprout then tosses in the idea of the Rule Cards and as much as we try to talk about it, Saka continues the chat about how hard it was to call "Anything Goes" in this tournament, when the participants themselves were trying to work on a system WE could use.

Shit really didn't blow out of proportion until Mo0 stepped in and said we're over complicating the situation. Sure that happened, but it's for the good of the participants since we're the ones who are actually fighting in this tournament. Not Rotorblade (at the moment anyway), not Lukage, not Mo0, none of you are actually participating in this in damn tournament.

So let me ask you this:

What the fuck are you doing in this thread?

As I've said before, this thread was supposed to be about the participants talking about what we wanted in the tournament. I didn't need this to become a thread where all the haters of Smashboards needed to come and mock us for actually wanting to ban stages or turn off items. That's why I asked the participants what they wanted, we didn't need you guys to talk about how unreasonable it is for someone who signed up to talk about it.

Well, thanks a lot, though! What started out as a normal thread about what we wanna do in this tournament turned into a discussion about how the non-participants actually criticize the participants about what they wanted to do in their own tournament! Good job, haters. :)

Saka's post was removed because I answered his question in a PM. It should be fairly obvious why this was reopened. No one here has flamed you directly (in this thread, journals are a different matter I have no control over.) Threads don't get closed because you don't want to end an argument with the last word. Just fucking ignore those people, Christ.

You're pissing a shit over stuff that's not flaming, but (at least in the case of me and Rotor), some honest criticism. It's not either of our faults that you can't take it and end up throwing a hissy fit here, son.

Personally, I was just trying to help. I saw that you WERE overcomplicating things, and all I wanted to do was help by suggesting you get this off the ground now, as opposed to drowning it in red tape and BS. I tried to assist you with an announcement. I tried (but failed due to permission sets) to add a poll for you. I'm not the bad guy here.

You have done nothing but interpret both mine and Rotor's comments incorrectly, and thrown a god damn shitfit in the process. I don't honestly give a fuck what rule set you've implemented. I'm not playing with you guys. So why would I? My point has obviously been completely missed.

While I speak for no one else, what I'm trying to do in this thread is help it along and to assist you. You clearly don't want any help, since you've had so much experience doing this before with thousands upon thousands of people, or something. So I retract what I said earlier. Go to fucking town.

I can't exactly get this off the ground since we don't really have enough people to run the whole tournament yet. It's been a little less than two weeks since Brawl has come out, and I wanted to wait until more people got it, so anyone who decides their interested in this could enter.

I never planned to start it immediately to begin with. I wanted to use this thread so we can plan out every aspect of the tournament/league so there would be no complaints and everyone would agree to everything that was set up. Instead, I get people complaining about how banning stages is unfair and getting constantly pressured to start this as soon as I can.

Sure, there was complication along they way, but that's pretty much the point of this thread. Sprout's idea of the rule card system was a discussion about how we could plan this out if we used it in the tournament. If we used it, this is how it would go. But since all I get are complaints that it's over complicating things, I'm forced to drop the idea even in the planning stages of this whole thing.

It's not like I never appreciated your help, Skills, but you were also one of the ones pressuring me to get this tournament somewhere. You kept saying the rules and stages debate was going nowhere, but it was basically the other non-participants who were making the participants discussion about the rules sound worse that they were. And as for Rotor, I finally call his "Pro Tip", and I still hear shit from him.

I'm really tired of people criticizing what this whole thread was about. Yes, we're debating about rules, but that's the fucking point of this thread. It's the Tournament Discussion thread so we could discuss EVERYTHING about the tournament at hand, not a "This isn't Smashboards and you sound like fags talking about banned stages" thread.

What I would appreciate is me being able to make a new thread where I won't hear anything about how stupid banning stages or leaving items on sounds stupid and I could strictly talk to the participants about what they want for the tournament. If I could get that, then maybe this tournament could actually get somewhere.

Clearly this calls for a new Tombstone Pizza Island. :cool:

No stupid banning stages discussion. No stupid leaving items on discussion. FINAL DESTINATION.

I don't plan on participating but I'm going to butt in anyway.

The mindset behind organizing this seems to be to please all participants involved. Now, given that there are a significant amount of people interested, and perhaps more importantly that Smash Bros. is a game rooted in chance, chaos, and a boatload of different varieties of play styles, it seems fruitless to me to get people on the same page. How this thread has gone so far is proof enough of that. There is no one stage or item that every player wants to do away with.

I know that to say that everyone has an idea of what's fair also means that everyone has a preferred set of rules. So why don't you just assign a home and away team to each match up? Home team picks the rules. Whatever they want. No arguments. The end. Equal amount of home games for each participant. Who they end up against in them, random.

I think the only thing you'd need to set restrictions on would be ludicrously long battles, give the time and stock a ceiling.

edit: Just to clarify, by choosing the rules I don't mean anything outside of what can be set in game. No telling your competitors that everyone can only be Bowser or some stupid shit.

Is this the only tournament we'll be having? We could just have a test tournament for the hell of it and then work on the serious stuff in the next tournament. Learn what didn't work in the first one and then figure out what's good and what's not in the next tourney.

Alrighty, well Chaotic you're a cool dude and all and I respect what you're trying to accomplish here but just ignoring criticism because it's coming from people who aren't participating is retarded. It could be that the things they are criticizing are why they aren't participating. You should respect that too.

And in that case I think I may have to start a different kind of tournament myself since I'm not in agreement with all of your rules either.


My ideal tournament:

2 vs 2 if possible but as lag being as it is perhaps one on one matches are the only way.

4 stock 8 minutes is a good idea. It's a long enough battle and for the most part gives enough time for all lives to be expended.

All items normal/medium and all stages (random select) on. Yes, everyone hates the DK Climbing stage and New Pork City is huuuuuge but if you get them then tough shit, deal with it, use to your advantage, try to survive if you are at a disadvantage, it's not like your opponent(s) cheated they just got lucky, everyone can use items equally for the most part, use your skill to use them or avoid them or whatever; it is a part of the game please get over yourself, smash balls are awesome and while super powerful can be avoided once activated for a good deal of characters and you also have the opportunity to knock it out of your opponent plus it's great how one item can change how people start fighting all of a sudden, if you're good enough you should be able to factor all these things into your game and if you come out on top its all that much better than being in a sterile environment, comma, comma, comma, comma.

Choose your character. And yeah that's it. Oh I suppose teams of four people randomly put together will be best so you don't get overpowered gradeschool-esque favoritism bullshit.

I'll be honest again.

I already called the rule set on Anything Goes with Items on Low and 4/8. What more do you expect from me on this one?

I'm just waiting for people to sign up at this point so then we could finally get this thing started. <_<

I kinda sense the lack of sign-ups because I feel there's some sort of grudge against me and you feel I have an inability to actually run a decent tournament. I don't like fighting with Anything Goes rules on, I don't think it's fair to everyone, and there's basically no way to turn me around from it. But because most of the people participating and not participating want it that way, fine, I'll live with it for the sake for this tournament if you thing it would get the ball rolling with this.

So saying that, we haven't had a sign-up since 10:58 AM EST. I called the rule set at 3:40 PM EST.

Even after the whole debate, I sense that people still aren't happy with this rule set and therefore not signing up. Any other problems so I can get some sign-ups on this thing? You know, because the whole point of this thread is to talk about that kind of thing.

Acer hit it on the spot for me. I was hesitant to sign up because of the ban discussion. I like a bit of luck in my games, because it'd be awfully boring without it.

Well, I dropped that idea since everyone wanted an Anything Goes thing. I settled for that, and I'm over the whole banning thing since people don't want it.

If you do wanna sign up, go for it. Repeating again, it is:

4 stock, 8 minutes
All Stages
Items On - Low

I honestly don't know what else I could change to make people sign up. This is as fair as I could get it to satisfy everyone. So at this point, it's either you do or you don't. Just don't think I'm still trying to get stages banned. I'm over it now, and I just want to get this thing started once we hit the 20 participants mark.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask about it.

Rotorblade, since you think you're so much god damn better than everyone else, tell us all how the "pros" do it and the "right way to do it." Seriously dude, its a discussion thread, so stop trying to assume you're some high and mighty tourney faggot who knows all about the games and "competitive play."

u maaaaad, Lukage? Don't be :mad:, be glad!

Seriously, man, what's with the outburst? I'm not the master of "competitive play", but I'm certainly well-read in comparison to the shit you spout off at the mouth about. From what I know, I can't say if it's actual gospel or not, the "pros" tend to play a game without banning anything for a good period of time, usually doing what SuperSonic suggested and just giving it time to see how the game plays out. Usually this pans out which strategies are viable for characters, clearing up strengths and weaknesses, and in the case of "banning"... which ones destroy variety.

Rarely is anything ever completely banned in a fighting game that's played "For serious reals competitively" unless it brings the game down to a 1 Dimensional shit fest. Again, Smash Bros. is an anomaly, because by its design it's meant to be random chaos. So it rubs people the wrong way when things are taken away, because much of that stuff that's taken away is what makes the game so appealing in the first place.

The "right" way, again from what I've read, is just to let things play out naturally and learn more about the game as you get better. I see you want to call me a tourney faggot, good for you. People, such as yourself, get so fucking pissed off because those of us willing to invest in the game and not actually be faggots about it get just a "little" bit more out of the experience. Take a trip to Sirlin.net — Your source of shocking insights on game design and read his "Playing to Win" series. Hell, just read his thoughts on game design.

I'm not gonna force any of that on anyone here, I'm just trying to help out the attempts. But to be honest, it's already been made clear that my input isn't personally helping Chaotic. So I'm gonna stay in the background until I get a Wii, and then I'll concern myself with whatever pick up games GFF is having with Brawl. Still, I see a lot of misconceptions regarding play and it all seems to stem from Smash Bros. Which is why I enjoy playing games with just a bit more structure to them and clearer house rules. But Brawl is what it is, a fun game that means many things to many different players.

Anyway, I'll see myself out, thank you. Carry on, folks.

I'll just repeat what I said in the Smash thread:

So closed this thread goes again. I'll post the new thread sometime later.
Please don't kill me, Skills ;_;