Song of the Week - Qualification: Quiet Voice -conditional duty-
 

PLEASE ONLY VOTE IF YOU PARTICIPATE IN SONG OF THE WEEK

This is a poll on official policy, so I'd appreciate it if only people who vote and/or nominate vote on this matter. If I don't recognize your name, I won't count your vote with the final tally. Thanks in advance. :)

~~~~

^ Totally just copy-pasted that header, even though this isn't really a policy decision.

Quiet Voice -conditional duty-
nominator: Djinova

This track is by ZTS. In addition to a bunch of doujin video game arrangements like this one, he also has four VGM composition credits:

• DJMAX Portable 2 (2 tracks out of 53: 3.8%)
• Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (4 tracks out of 54: 7.4%)
• Parhelia (8 tracks out of 16: 50%)
• Umineko no Naku Koro ni episode2 - Turn of the golden witch (11 tracks out of 65: 16.9%)

Note that all of these credits are collaborative, and he(?) has never written the complete soundtrack to a game by himself. Good enough to make this original work eligible? Vote y/n/dc now!

See here for brief previous discussion, and populate this thread with further discussion. The poll will close at about the same time or so as Week 122 voting.

I think that even if he isn't the most active vgm composer yet, it seems that he's starting a career here, so I voted in favor of it.

I've been busy, so I missed the discussion in the main thread. If this were one of his VGM tracks I'd have no problem at all, but the original track makes me wary of another Ryuichi Sakamoto '79.

I'm confused, though. Djinova's original nomination says that the track is an "Arrangement from a game called "天使のいない１２月." Now I can't read those moon characters, but it sounds like the music might have appeared in a game at some point, at which case all the problems vanish. Then again, it sounds like it might also be doujin, an arrangement of a track ZTS didn't write.

Clarification?

December When There Is No Angel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If this were one of his game tracks I'd have 0 problem with it, but this would be like nominating a Mustin remix when he's only done a couple tunes and sound effects here and there. At least a full soundtrack would be where I draw the line.

The track I nominated is a doujin arrangement of a certain original track that has appeared in the visual novel called "天使のいない１２月.". The arrangement itself has never appeared in any game. The original track is "無口な歌声" (Quiet Voice) written by "石川真也" (Shinya Ishikawa).
source: “VŽg‚Ì‚¢‚È‚¢12ŒŽ Original Sound Track

Ah, thanks for the clarification :) Unfortunately, that makes me inclined to say "no," since doujin isn't normally eligible. An original track, yeah, but not doujin.

That kind of makes me question the need for a poll in the first place, since it seems like the track should be automatically disqualified.

He has game composition credits on 4 games, no matter what the level, that's good enough for me. I would allow this.

This is a tough one. As much as I would like to hear the track on SotW, I'd have to go with a no here since the track is a doujin and not an original work or an official arrangement. Unless there is a decision at the policy level to allow doujin in the contest.

But to be honest, I'm not certain that I can actually articulate the value in differentiating a doujin from an official remix/arrangement. Hypothetical scenario: A DJ arranges a VGM track as an official arrangement and then rearranges the track again but this time as a doujin though retaining the DJ's signature style used even in the official arrangement. Can the doujin really be considered to be that much different from the official arrangement, structure of arrangement aside? (Assume the DJ doesn't encounter an issues with copyrights etc.)

Hope the above made sense (I'm typing this at an unearthly hour...).

Hmm... I'd rather be lenient with rules so I'd err on the side of letting something enter... But I don't know. If it was a track from a game I'd be ready to cheer it on, but as it is, I think I'll vote for "abstain". Think of it as a "maybe..."

I'm curious as to just how much work he has done outside of games.

This is the relevant rule:
The issue is whether or not his body of work qualifies him as a VGM composer. Other fan arrangements we've had in the past by the rule are virt's Dragon Spirit mix "Wings of Gold" from VGMix, MintJam's Final Fantasy Adventure mix "In Search of the Holy Sword -Seiken Densetsu-" from 3rd GIG #Crescent, and S.S.H's Blast Wind mix "Ultimate Destroyer" from his site.

As a side note, since the change from the one-game-and-you're-a-composer rule, S.S.H's current status as a composer is debatable because he's only composed the soundtracks to two games. We haven't had anything to actually test it, though.

Well, if it's a different arrangement, then it's a different track. Even if the two tracks are exactly the same save for a couple of things, that still counts in my mind as an alternate version because, well, it's not the official version.

• List of CDs released by his label - These are all either fan arrangement albums or fan arrangement albums with some original pieces on them. Note that, like the games he's worked on, most of these are also collaborative, and on some of them he's only done a few tracks.
• Non-self-published works list - This shows the game compositions I listed in the first post (excluding Parhelia, oddly), fan arrangement albums released by other circles that he's contributed to, official arrangement albums that he's contributed to (some Key albums and Glove On Fight), some albums from anime based on games that he's contributed to (both composition and arrangement), and miscellaneous. Just about all of these credits are only for 1-3 tracks.

It comes down to the purpose of the competition for me, namely highlighting obscure game soundtracks and composers. This nom is, when it comes down to it, a doujin track from a doujin arranger. Using a coincidental smattering of game credits in order to squeeze it in just seems to be missing the point. If you like the composer, nominate his compositions. If you like the source, nominate the source.

I'm personally not feeling as though the credits are enough; each is collaborative and we cannot say for what percentage of each ZTS was responsible.

Sorry. If it's any consolation, this same criteria nixes a different song that I otherwise would've liked to nominate.

If MintJam was allowed, ZTS should be allowed. No confusion here.

I didn't calculate the percentages when I made the original list and this thread, but I'll do it now and update the OP.

• DJMAX Portable 2 (2 tracks out of 53: 3.8%)
• Higurashi no Naku Koro ni (4 tracks out of 54: 7.4%)
• Parhelia (8 tracks out of 16: 50%)
• Umineko no Naku Koro ni episode2 - Turn of the golden witch (11 tracks out of 65: 16.9%)

I am amazed that you went to that trouble.

And also a bit frightened.

Parhelia and Higurashi have soundtracks, and Umineko and DJMAX have song lists. I'd found these all before, so it took two minutes. :|

If going by these pure standards, many more previous nominations would have felt treacherous and we wouldn't have these rules. Sorry, if I'm singling Epsilon's nominations out for this, but I'm trying to make clear that there are certain things you're still not aware of. I have nothing against these nominations as they follow the rules, but its character is interesting to discuss by these standards.

3 or so of his nominations including the latest winner are doujin arrangements done by a doujin group called "Studio A" with their main artists being "A'" and "Namihei" (VGM credits: 6 tracks for Princess Waltz OST, afaik). But they aren't considered "doujin" simply, because these arrangements appeared on an album released by some official producers. Whether a track is under the name of a small doujin release group or included in an official album to fill out space, does it really change the character of the track? Does it sound more official than it sounds doujin?

Hence I totally avoid character discussions when it comes to nominations, because it can get very deep and I feel I might miss something the other person know. I didn't "tried" the backdoor for this nomination, but abided by previous instances shown by CHz (he's missing "Nightrain" by S.S.H, and "A rude performance -spicy Jam mix-" by Mintjam track (by _DH_, I like these tracks so I remembered), and nominated this with confidence of not violating any SoTW rules.

Obviously I think partial credits in 4 albums suffice, which shows he can cooperate for different projects and is not just chance-composer for one game, but that's why the poll is here.

Had I known about the Studio A noms, I would have moved to disqualify them as well. But with respect to MintJam and S.S.H., it isn't even close for me. MintJam has at least 2 full soundtrack credits, Potoneko Academy and Nee Nee Doo Soru. S.S.H did Lost Child and Sixty Nine 2. Even one of their credits probably contains more tracks than ZTS's entire combined discography.

So, how many more tracks does ZTS need to compose before he can get his foot in this particular door?

Achievement Unlocked: Composed more than 87.5% of an official soundtrack

Like I said, 100% is a good place to start. You may joke about achievements and stuff, but the fact is we do have to draw the line somewhere, or else any OCReMixer with 1 official track is eligible. ZTS clocks in at barely a third of a soundtrack on average, even excluding DJMAX and Higurashi.

And again my main issue is that nominating a doujin track from a doujin guy just seems to miss the point. Rude Performance and Nightrain are both original tracks, so you're seeing their skill as composers fully showcased there. Nominating their arrangements was iffy (I made a big hoopla about the FF Adventure track too), but doing the same thing for someone even less established pushes it over for me.

Anyway, I've said my piece. I don't really take this as seriously as it looks like I do (I mean it's not even a real contest...), so sorry if I'm going all nerdfight on you guys.

So, regardless of cumulative credits, an artist must compose a whole VGM album before he/she can be considered a VGM composer. That's a rather arbitrary rule. It'll also rule out plenty of composers whose discographies are exclusively collaborations, like the entire Leaf Sound Team -- whose (arranged) work is the track in question here.

If that were to be the case, that Osamu Kubota song I nominated and placed several months ago probably wouldn't be eligible anymore. He's contributed to at least 15 different games, but not an entire soundtrack to himself yet.

After considering it, I'm tempted to think yes on this issue. He isn't someone who has a career outside of game music and just happens to compose something in a game, like Ryuichi Sakamoto. You can see he's done doujin music along with his few credits, so it looks like he's aiming to become a video game musician, and that's where his popularity will come from if he continues. I guess what I'm saying is, there's a difference between someone who just dabbles in game music for a limited number of tracks, and someone devoted to game music who's still working their way up the ladder. One I'm okay with, and the other I'm not.

Ah, so much complexity. I feel like I'm reading the US tax code instead of the SotW rules :D

Am I alone in longing for a simpler time, a time when people nominated music from video games? But even I've put up an original track recently...

I´ve voted for yes...

Would someone be kind enough to change my vote to "Abstain/Don't Care." With all due respect, I thought this was about VGM, not composers. I don't mean to oversimplify or generalize, but this... shit, going on in this topic is kind of striking a nerve with me. The guy has industry credibility, it's suddenly VGM. I mean, that being the case and given we can nominate "original compositions", I have to question the spirit of this event.

In case of tl;dr, I'm saying this is retarded.

With all due respect, before you get your panties in a bunch, the track in question is a VGM arrangement.

I realize your internet argument reflex was trigged, but don't worry... I'm better than that. I acknowledged that we can nominate original compositions, and before that stated the logic behind a lot of nominations, Blah. So what's your point?

This line. We're not even arguing for the inclusion of an original composition in the first place, it has all to do with an explicit provision that made unofficial arrangements by VGM composers eligible. So now we're arguing what makes a composer a VGM composer. If you're saying it's not about the composer, why are you switching your vote?

I acknowledged that we can nominate original compositions, though I can see where you would believe the statement I make on "that line" would imply otherwise, it was a rollover statement that went wrong. To clarify, my line of thinking here is that if we can nominate original compositions, not this composer in question, and if we acknowledge that industry work means VGM composition experience... why is this track an issue now? The man's career seems to be up and coming, I feel that it's silly to really dictate what direction his career is going while having an event based on promoting video game music. It's kind of in the vein of what orion said in his latest post, in my eyes.

Edit: I'm switching because as I saw this unfold, it seemed to contradict the goal of SotW to me. As far as your claim of this being a "Screw you" goes? That's your interpretation, but it certainly isn't a reflection of my feelings. If I wanted to say "screw you", I'd stop nominating, stop voting, and stop acknowledging that this event even exists on the forums. Don't get it twisted.

In other words, a protest switch. Alright, gotcha.

You know, your initial post really can be taken both ways.

I acknowledge that, but I appreciate any benefit of the doubt. Usually because my wording is a consistent source of fuck ups for me, it isn't the first time and it certainly won't be the last.

Yeah, the existence of those two specific provisions make it pretty clear that this is about composers as well. I guess the difference is whether you interpret the provisions as meaning "hey you all know about this composer but did you know he did this arrangement/original?" or "hey there's this guy who is known primarily for his arrangements but did you also know he does...arrangements?" or "hey this is an arrangement, which is normally ineligible, but wait achievement unlocked 10 tracks composed, sound test activated."

I picked the first interpretation, since if the 2nd or 3rd interpretations are in fact accurate, I didn't see the point in locking out doujin stuff in the first place.

Ah, I see. This is akin to not reading the fine print. :P Ooooops. If doujin by VGM composers is allowed, I'd be willing to support "Quiet Voice -conditional duty-"

If the definition of VGM composer is the issue of debate, another question I have is whether the current rules allow us to make exceptions for non-VGM composers who have been commissioned to arrange/compose a few specific original tracks for a game. And remember, these composers have never composed a full VGM album. Are such composers still considered VGM composers? Currently, I think this is allowed as long as the track is an original composition for a game, but once the composer composes a track for a non-game project (e.g. studio albu), the track can't be nominated if he/she isn't considered a VGM composer. (Hope I'm interpreting the rules correctly...)

Not the only one. The problem is that you then find out about a relatively unknown original piece by a really well-known composer, and you want everyone to hear it (the case with my current nom). At least this has been my sole exception to my "no non-game-related songs" principle.

What, is this a popularity contest now?

The "yes" votes outnumber the "no" votes, 2:1. I think we've reached a verdict, regardless of however long folks care to debate the split hairs.

Well, more like an unpopularity contest. I see the provisions as loopholes to allow obscure work from composers who are otherwise too popular to be eligible, as Drakken just mentioned. If that wasn't the original intent, I'd appreciate some enlightenment as to what it actually was.

But as Crash has pointed out, the vote is pretty clear. Till next time, I suppose.

Yep, even if you remove the two votes from people who don't participate in SotW, the track is still up 11-6-2. Handwriting's on the wall!

That's nice. Seeing as how you don't participate in Song of the Week, your vote means nothing here.

Of course, you could fix this little problem...