Why is the murder rate in the US so high?
 

Murder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can anyone elaborate? Is it the drugs? poverty? guns?

I mean, we have a death penalty for murder....on the flipside we allow guns in homes.

It's not just numbers, its a ratio. This is what i came to after doing some calc math.

Canada - .1757

France - .000015625 (how do they do it?)

USA - 5.6 (why are we so deadly)

Brazil - 3.0054644808743169398907103825137e-4 (lol wtf?)

Because ultimately, American culture is a more violent than other cultures.

It's tempting to just throw the problem at gun ownership and say that's it. I think that's not quite on the mark, personally. The US's problem is that our gun laws are too lax. Our background checks aren't worth a shit. I can get a handgun license at 21 that will never require me to renew it again. WTF?

The right to own a gun is in the constitution and that's not going to change, but that doesn't mean we need to be passing out free guns with the purchase of a 12-pack.

They don't take themselves so goddamned seriously, that's how.

Brazilians, too.

They play harder than they work. They're not wound as tightly as Americans seem to be.

Of course, this is my own observation. I've been to France, and the lifestyle is a lot more simple, but a lot less stress than in the US. Life isn't focused on GET MONEY, SPEND MONEY as much as it is here. People here would sell their soul if it meant they'd get a little richer. Not to say some people overseas aren't like that, but society doesn't really shove it down their throats like we have it here.

I don't even want to speculate about the guns. I'm sure it's got something to do with it, but I suspect the mental health of the nation has more to say about our murder rates than the gun control issues.

Why is the murder rate in the US so high? Boston Red Sox fans.

The real question is - why aren't more of them dead?

(Don't forget that murder doesn't require a gun, so bringing gun permits into this is moot. Kitchen knives don't require a permit and practically everyone owns a car. Murder is simply the method in which someone dies - be it manslaughter or otherwise.)

Jesus. Bitter much?

As opposed to 80 years of jokes about Babe Ruth and pianos falling by people who mispronounce every word containing a vowel in a second rate city? Not even close.

American gun laws are hella restrictive short of outright banning firearms.

The problem isn't gun ownership -- criminals, by definition, don't follow the law, so stopping American citizens who abide by the law from owning weapons or making it harder for them to get them won't stop a bitch ass thing.

In order to support your point, you'd have to show that a substantial portion of these gun murders were done with legally purchased firearms.

So you're here to contribute absolutely nothing to the actual conversation then?

You're just going to sit there and talk trash about fans of a certain sports team in the middle of a discussion about murder rates?

As for the actual topic, here: why would people jump to the conclusions that guns are "probably" to blame for the high murder rate in this country? Criminals in any nation will likely obtain a gun, regardless of the law.

I think you're much more likely to be bludgeoned to death in England than shot.

Of course, that's a tiny island. And we know how incompetent the US Gov't is at keeping things "controlled."

Well, I mean, let's face it: if you want to kill a person, there's more than one way to do it. You don't need a gun to murder.

Which is why I am a smidge confused about the gun control argument here. Like I said, I think it says something about the American psyche more than anything.

Why are we such murderous assholes? Is it REALLY because guns are more accessible here than in any other nation?*

*I don't actually know this.

The alienation Americans feel from each other, the lack of meaningful human connection, makes it easier to stifle empathy and end another's life. For all America's material wealth, its technical sophistication, it has failed to improve on the things humans need most. Psychiatric pharmacology cannot replace familial emotional connections or a sense of community. Convenience and assembly line processes cannot replace meaningful work that one can take pride in. American life becomes a competition for wealth, encouraging people to regard one another as enemies. The people, their needs perpetually unmet, forget exactly what it is they are lacking, and are puzzled and frustrated when their children are unsatisfied. Each generation becomes successively more disconnected from their own humanity. Violence in media is the result of this, a symptom, not a cause.

There are many reasons for murder in every culture. Americans simply more often lack the reasons to refrain from it: empathy, any shred of hope that their life could improve, having a worthwhile life they wouldn't want to lose due to incarceration or execution, etc.

As much as I hate people who want to blame the media for people's actions. Look at how backwards things are here. We censor the heck out of anything sex related but don't give a crap about violence. This is like completely backwards from other countries.

That and the wealth thing others mentioned. Makes me glad I don't care about money as long as I have enough to get by. Course I guess that just means I'm more likely to be murdered then the other way around.

I'm curious as to what the ratios for death from other causes are, amongst the countries listed in the first post.

On the other hand, it's really easy to say "I only need so much money enough to get by."

Think of all the unnecessary crap Americans buy - how much shit do you have laying around on your shelves that you never use? The things you purchase "just because." What is "enough to get by?" Enough for food, shelter, and warmth? Is it because that's all you can afford? If you could afford more, wouldn't you have more? Where is the line drawn?

I agree with the majority of what Gray said, but at the same time, I don't think the world at large is without a lot of the same symptoms. The world is becoming a smaller place, and it's becoming the same-old, same-old everywhere.

Americans, I think, have just become so stressed out and so distanced from what is reality that they're losing themselves in their endless pile of stuff.

We're bred to think a college degree, a great job, and productivity in a meaningless job in a high-rise someplace is what we should all aspire to become. Creativity is lost, which in my opinion is a great outlet for people to get in touch with each other.

It may sound cliché, especially coming from me, but I think we've lost a sense of self. We're wrapped up in what we "should" be, and aren't focused enough on what we want to be. This, I believe, can cause a lot of societal problems. I know people who go through endless cycles of jobs, careers - even family - and they still don't know who they are or what they want. There's no cutting loose, there's no exploration of yourself, there's no doctor to tell you what you really need in lieu of writing something up for the pharmacist to prepare.

The answer isn't in drugs, television programs, self-help videos, or even in riches. It's in ourselves.

Brazil murder rate is biassed, the vast majority here is murder II or IV, the lack of a good health care and the fact that most police forces take forever to arrive at the scene is what raises mortality.

Good job, the fat girl can't put down her box of donuts long enough to read what I did post...

Congrats on being willfully ignorant!

How's that one-trick pony thing working out for you?

Compared with other countries we are insanely lax - of course, I do live in the Midwest, so it's hard to say comparatively what things are like in coastal cities. Here in Indiana though there's more ways to get a gun than I'm able to count.

I don't mean to argue for more gun control...but Indiana at least could definitely use smarter gun control. I basically just have to show up and say that I'm not a felon and a day later I can go out and legally get a firearm - provided the vendor actually cares that I'm licensed to own one.

A lot of murder crimes are done with guns - and I don't think we need to necessarily do more blanket restrictions on ownership...well, you know where I'm going with this, already covered it.

Even more legal restraints would make it difficult to obtain a gun illegally. I know ultimately it's not going to stop a criminal who wants to kill somebody, but I can't imagine it wouldn't help at all.

Thats not true, you can't buy firearms here, well, you can, but the process involves you being screened by the federal police, a 4 months waiting, and you have to actually proove by means without a doubt that you need a firearm.

Yet, the results are show by the OP, Phoenix is right, felons don't need permits.

If that was directed at me, I more or less ment I don't have a particular desire to be rich. If I won the lottery would I be happy? Yes. But I don't have a particular reason to be rich or much reason to strive for it. Because as long as I can afford a place to stay, eat, utilities, and a few entertainment items every now and then I'm happy. If I was rich, I honestly wouldn't have anything to spend it on. I'd just get a nice house and never work again.

I never finished college either because I hardly see the point. Michigan is so messed up right now that even if I had a college degree, I'd probably need to move out of state to get a good job and I don't want to leave here. Everyone I know or care about is here. But I'm trailing off now...

Back on topic, like others have said you don't need a gun to kill people. Most the time when someone is killed by a stranger who is robbing them or something else it is with a gun. Most the time in gang violence it is with a gun. But most the time when the more disturbing murders occur where like a man kills his wife, mother kills their kid, etc. It's not done with a gun and alot of the scenarios end up far more disturbing then if the person had simply shot the person.

About as well as you and the previously mentioned early morning box of donuts, thanks <3

Then like I said, it definitely varies from state to state.

I'm not pretending that felons don't have means to obtain firearms. Very few gun murders are committed with guns that are licensed to the killer, I'd imagine. But that's no reason to make it easy for everyone to pick up a gun.

But like I said, this is just how it is where I live. Most of America probably has pretty sane gun laws I guess, at least in comparison to here.

I agree with Phoenix though in that our culture is a lot more violent than other cultures.

I usually laugh at how Europe is a bunch of pansies when it comes to movie violence, and how the US cringes at the mention of the word 'sex'. But in reality I'd say a lenient attitude towards sex is a helluva lot more healthy for everyone than a lenient attitude towards violence.

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Just for anyone who is interested (and hopefully this will help explain some of my attitudes about gun laws):

Indiana Gun Laws:

Rifles and Shotguns

* Permit to purchase rifles and shotguns? No.
* Registration of rifles and shotguns? No.
* Licensing of owners of rifles and shotguns? No.
* Permit to carry rifles and shotguns? No.

Handguns

* Permit to purchase handgun? No.
* Registration of handguns? No.
* Licensing of owners of handguns? No.
* Permit to carry handguns? Yes.

-----

In addition, we've got a lifetime handgun permit, you can buy any gun you want just by showing up at a gun show, no background checks, permits, or anything needed. We used to have a seven day waiting period before you could buy a firearm, but that was done away with in the late 1990's. You have to go through a Federal background check, but only a state background check for handguns. This means shotguns, rifles, and most assault weapons not only require no permit or license to carry, you aren't checked at a state level for them (which I believe is a lot more efficient than Federal checks).

The only thing I'm glad Indiana does have is the law that lets you shoot trespassers on sight when you feel you are threatened. The whole "your home is your castle" doctrine-law-thingy.

I don't know where you live but here, if you want a gun, even a handgun, it's a piece of cake.

The explanation for why the murder rate is so high in the U.S. is far more complicated than can be boiled down to the simple explanation as it's guns. Guns are a tool for killing, not what makes people kill. Class divides, racial tensions, gangs, drugs, jealously, greed, pride and many other factors are thrown into the mix. I don't even think that being more tolerant of violence than sex would contribute towards a high murder rate.

An ill-advised war on drugs coupled with the withering of the extended family seems to make for a fairly potent amalgamation.

It's pretty simple to get a gun illegally regardless of the laws. The guns just have to disappear from the system. They're either "stolen" and have the serial numbers filed off, or they're produced in black market shops.

So long as guns are ubiquitous, there will also be a lot of illegal firearms floating around. You can't stop it short of draconian measures that shouldn't have to be put up with.

I wasn't so much as going for the goal of stopping illegally obtained firearms (although in Indiana there's almost no such thing) as I reversing the current situation here (where it's easier to get a gun legally than illegally).

Looking around though it seems Indiana is pretty unique in this boat as far as lax gun laws =/. I thought the situation was same everywhere.

Shouldn't this be considered a good thing? If legally owned firearms were being used in crimes that'd make them easier to track.

I think you're confusing the issue of how guns are acquired illegally in the first place.

Pardon me being blunt, but I think Link's just unhappy with the "right to arm bears" (pun intended) because of the whole easiness in getting a firearm.

I still stand on my opinion that it doesn't matter if you force people to take mental tests and screen their pee for birth defects, or whatever crazy thing to inhibt people from trying to get a gun, If you want to kill someone, you are going to, no matter if you get a gun, a knife or a stone, as someone said on the thread, firearms are just means to acomplish something, The first primitive firearms were invented around 1000 AD, but man is killing eachother since the dawn of time.

OK. If I get what your saying, Indiana makes it very easy to get a gun.

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indiana - 5.1 homicide

It looks here like Indiana is on the safer end of the spectrum. Ranked 30/50, yet gun control is very legal. In a very small example it looks like Guns DONT have a large impact on murder. On the other hand one can argue that not much goes on in Indiana. Then again, Indianapolis had on average, 6x as many murders in 1998 than other countries...

Back to why we're all fucked...

I agree with what some of the above posters said. Americans are very work inclined, stressed, and exposed to some *sweet* violence. They also aren't as luvvy duvvy with members of the community like they are in other parts of the world (excluding Boaz, Alabama) so taking someones life wouldn't be as personal.

I know in France, they kiss everyone on the check whenever they meet, even if they are strangers. Go into a dorm room and try that here.

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most murders are among young men, 200-27 *I think*. 52.1% are black males, and most (87%) or murders are intraracial.

I'm surprised no one mentioned how immature the kids are in the United States (I consider kids 0-21, but the immaturity can easily, and often will, go beyond 21). Highs schools lack discipline sooo much, the kids do what they want. They get their cars and freedom, and still do what they want. They speed and crash. They drink and drive. They get girls pregnant without caring. They barely do schoolwork and still graduate with honors. They drink diet pepsi....the list goes on

I'm not saying kids aren't immature all over the world, but it's much worse in the United States. I've been to a few places in Europe, and the kids almost seem boring, because they act like adults. Like a party for them is sitting around talking about politics, sipping wine and occasionally dancing. They don't take risks at all. They are so mature at such a young age it's like WTF!!

@DARKLINK

I think it's stupid too, how we ban sex but flaunt violence. MAKES NO SENSE.

I don't know about that law for trespassers. I mean, self defense should be enough, no? What if you want to frame someone? Like, someone from work.

Hey man, come on over for some coffee after work.

OK.

This is my home.

*Shotgun to the dome*

officers he was trespassing!!

As anyone who's ever watched The Simpsons could tell you, it doesn't work if you invite them.

@Brady:
I guess I can see your point here. If gun crimes are going to be committed, its easier to have them solved when the gun used can be traced. I still don't think it's sane to allow such easy obtainment of said firearms. I've got a history of epilepsy & tourettes syndrome, and while I've had no symptoms of either for the past 8 or so years, I don't need to show that. I've got two pretty serious mental disorders that have both been professionally diagnosed, that would make me a potential liability. The way they mix together means they usually trigger when I'm angry, amplifying those emotions and making me unnaturally strong. Not a good thing if I want to go out and get a firearm.

(I just re-read that and lol...no I don't turn green as well. Probably has something to do with massively increased adrenaline flow.)

I don't need to show proof that I no longer suffer from the symptoms. I can just fill out the forms and get one.

Ideally I guess you would want a situation where there's a proper balance in the difficulty for a law-abiding citizen to get a gun. I definitely don't think Indiana has that equilibrium.

@Vinjeux:

Exactly what I was saying. The only real law requires you to have a permit to carry a handgun outside of your legal place of residence. Most firearm dealers will require you to show a license in order to purchase - but you can show up to any gun show (of which there are plenty) to get around all gun laws.

I can't provide links as I believe I read this in my local newspaper, but I remember reading several stories where most gun crimes committed in neighboring states, most noticeably Illinois, were committed with guns bought in Indiana. Even if we aren't necessarily ourselves a higher liability, the ease with which one can get a gun here does make us a hazard to nearby states.

I also see the problem with the trespassing law. It has potential for abuse...but I also should not have to wait until me or my family could potentially be shot and killed by a trespasser to fire back.

And I DEFINITELY agree with your point about maturity & it's probable effects on America's high murder rate. I'm constantly irritated when I realize out of all my high school friends, me and maybe one other guy are the only two that have actually matured. I mean obviously I'm not completely an adult, I don't mean to say that, but still, I hope you get the gist of what I'm saying.

So many of the gun crimes here today seem to be related with a person who wasn't able to solve a simple problem in their life, they lacked the maturity to make good decisions. Nobody does enough to try and make you think about consequence before action. We are very much a "do now and make up for it later" culture.

----------------------------------

I am definitely a huge supporter of the right to bear arms, but at least here in Indiana, we aren't applying some common sense with that right. Screening isn't going to catch every last person, but at the very least we can eliminate some liabilities. You can't control the uncontrollable (someone steals a gun and then commits murder) so don't try - but at least try to control what you do have a handle on. There's no reason to place a gun in the hand of a person with severe bi-polar disorder, or with a history of violent crimes, etc.

EDIT:

I want to remark on what you said about people kissing each other on the cheek. In the USA the norm is to have a very wide bubble of personal space. You keep yourselves distant and away from other people, away from touch. People breach that bubble and you are very uncomfortable. I'd say perhaps that impersonable-ness in American culture has a small part to do with our higher murder rate as compared with countries that are very up close and personal with even complete strangers. It goes straight down to the nature vs nurture psychology.

Sorry if some of this is incoherent. My roommate is babbling on about something that I really don't care about making it hard to concentrate and I'm about ready to kill him. :).

Total number of murders is meaningless. The population of a tiny country like Liechtenstein, for example, can't even begin to match the number of nutcases the United States has. It is better to compare it as a percent of the country's population.

List of countries by homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to Wikipedia, in the latest data available, the United States isn't really that high - 5.9 murders per 100,000 inhabitants (2005), compared with El Salvador's 55.3 (2006).

I also postulate that the United States is more transparent than most other countries concerning murder rates. Look at the countries at the low end - it's not strictly comparable because of time lag. Consider as well the political ramnifications of admitting your country has a murder problem.

Thus, after doing two minutes of research, I don't believe the murder rate in the United States is that much of a cause for concern. :p

Seems like the whole country is undergoing mass psychosis to me. Shootings at malls and schools are becoming hardly a blip on the mainstream media's ticker. Fear seems to be the order of the day, and you have to keep ratcheting it up to keep people subdued. The level of tension and anxiety is palpable; it comes off as a fog in the mornings and haze during the day.

The economy is going down the shitter, people are losing their homes, can't afford basic health care (and the ones that can are having drugs shoved down their throats). Lead laced toys, mercury laced vaccines, fluoridated water, msg, saccharine/aspartame/sucralose(spelnda bastards) really help with physical and mental health too. Not to mention the total poliferation of electronic gadgets & cell phones and their unknown long term effects on people.

Our leaders tell us everything is alright while we send kids off to kill people, and the country is being drained (fuck its already in the negative) of every last penny. This is a crisis, yet people try to act as though everything is normal, and this turns the stress up even more. For when you force yourself to believe a lie, everything becomes mixed up and confusing because things that 'should be' aren't, and things that 'shouldn't' are.


Still, everybody goes about their daily lives, and try to forget these problems... but you can't solve problems by ignoring them and it only worsens the conditions.

That list only make the rates on U.S. rates look worst, not better, see, the vast majority of those countries are still in development and when dealing with criminality, a lot of then are still no mans land, they simply don't have the means or the manpower to stop or at least, cohibit crime, and of course they would be top murder rates, but a quote from the same article says;

Homicide demographics are affected by changes in trauma care, leading to changed lethality of violent assaults, so the homicide rate may not necessarily indicate the overall level of societal violence.

The top one for instance, the country had the worst helthcare in the americas up till the 80's, something that, amongst other things, led the country to a 12 year civil war, it still has one of the largest rates of powerty, and it's the most dense populated country in the americas.

So what you are saying is that compared to the rest of the third world countries, U.S. is okay? well, it's nonsense to me, but even so, a helluva good list, shows that people don't really think before killing another human being.

Blast it. I thought we were comparing USA to the world, and now you wanted to compare it to just its peers among the first world :(

Modern African American culture.

The Punishing Decade: Prison and Jail Estimates at the Millennium

African-Americans comprise the majority (52%) of criminal offenders arrested and convicted of homicide (murder and manslaughter), and a large proportion (46.9%) of homicide victims. Not being a racist here, but it is an underlying problem and could the hip-hop culture may be to blame.

In 1995, one-third of African American men between the ages of 20 and 29 were under some form of criminal justice control (in prison, on parole or probation). Since then that statistic has risen. According James E. Garrett, Jr., Executive Director of the Indiana Commission on the Social Status of Black Males, incarceration rate among African American men (4.16 percent of population; nearly 40 percent of imprisoned population)

Ergo, I blame black people. Fucking coloreds with all their "rap" music - if it can even be called that!

Maybe the reason so many blacks are criminals has more to do with drugs being one of the few ways to make money in the ghettos besides prostituting, than 50 Cent.

Or maybe it's because of gangs and the music they listen to, because it seems many of the actual criminals will take rap music seriously.

Yeah, because Black people have had absolutely zero disadvantages throughout their entire history. Yup yup, they're just all delinquents of society because it's just always been so "hip."

I didn't say that was the reason why there are surprising statistics among the black population; however, I would not give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you can blame a group of people for something that happened 200-400 years ago. Also, black people were not only slaves in America, why are their statistics only outlandish in that region?

Also, if you want to take the whole, "We should feel sorry for them because of the slavery" route, I would encourage you to think about Native Americans. Their civilization came to an dreadful end, genocide. I don't like the excuse you are giving me, I think it is a cop out. Sure, some of what you are saying is true. I will use the Native Americans as another example. After their lands were conquered, they were placed in reservations with harsh conditions. Many of them resort to thievery and violence. However, in today's society, Native Americans are not really viewed as a problem. On average, they make better grades in school, and lower crime rates than the black population (divided by ratio).

Also, it can be argued that Native Americans live in worse conditions than blacks in today's society. So the whole racism-oppression argument seems invalid to me.

You're all sorts of fucked up on this issue. 200-400 years ago? Are you daft? There's a big difference between "Slavery" and "Civil Rights", which is exactly what you don't seem to be able to distinguish. The "actions" of a "few people 200-400 years ago" isn't the issue. The fact that blacks usually have to work twice as hard to get half as far is. And it's the same for many races and countries. Yeah, there were black slaves in other countries, but that's not the issue here, is it?

You tell me, Tesla, why IS IT that blacks are so rambunctious in America?

If you ask me... the ramifications of slavery are in effect to this day. It doesn't justify or mitigate the actions of people who break the fucking law, but that wasn't the point of why I brought it up. You're being an ass. The only person who is on a blame line of thinking is you. Look at your self, look at your very first post on this tangent. Your whole intention is to pass blame and for all the wrong reasons.

Society is fucked up, but if you want to play "let's take it a step further" with blacks and music, then why can't I take it a step further and look at history, society, and mankind as a whole?

Could it be that I can't do that if it doesn't fit your modus operandi? Your sense of logic? Questions, good sir. Questions.

Encourage me? I have Native American blood in me, fuck off. History is History. People die off, Nations, Societies, Cultures... they get swept up in time or struck down. Nothing lasts. Here's something you should think about: "Fucked up is fucked up." The instant you start trying to play comparisons and assign tiers and ratios to things, the more nothing gets solved because you're too busy trying to assign it a number and a priority.

My "people" aren't the issue here, asshole. You brought up blacks, so let's hear it. You've obviously got such knowledge on government, history, politics, and sociology to make a bold statement. What happens when rap music goes away? The "black problem" is solved, right? Wrong.

I'm not a criminal. I'm actually fairly white bred.

But there's plenty of hip hop and rap that I take seriously. Even the gangster kind.

You're statement is entirely flawed. In today's American society, it is theoretically easier for blacks to get by. Despite racism, which really isn't a huge issue anymore, blacks are offered so many special programs to help them succeed. I don't really see anything that is preventing them from succeeding. Programs which are only offered to blacks. Ever heard of Affirmative Action? If anything, there is too much compensation. Even according to high-profile blacks, such as Bill Cosby. The idiom which you present suggests otherwise.

My intention is to not pass blame. My intentions are merely to examine the statistics. Murder rates are high in the US, and who makes up the majority of the percentage? Blacks. It's not very hard to realize that it is an issue. In essence, your goal is to simply push it under the rug. In my mind this isn't a "blame game". It's examining issues that are controversial and addressing them. Who gives a shit if they are controversial? It's obvious that there is a problem here, and why are you being such a pussy that you wont acknowledge it. Also, learn to organize your thoughts clearly. I had a difficult time analyzing your sentences because your grammar was so poorly organized.

Take a look at history. I encourage you. I never said civil rights or slavery had nothing to do with it. I merely stated that the music obviously promotes this kind of behavior, and influences the culture, especially in youths.

I was comparing blacks to Native Americans to prove a point, not to confuse anything. The more you try to deny the issue at hand, the more things are swept under the rug, and unsolved.

Did I ever say "your people" are the issue here? No, why don't you learn to read. I simply made a comparison. I never said that music is the cause of why blacks are rambunctious, I said it may have some influence. I seriously doubt eliminating rap music would eliminate the problem. Quit trying to put words in my mouth.

The question is not of means: guns and legislation, but rather of the cause: social unrest.

So then, why, in a first world country with welfare and ample opportunity for employment and wealth, is the society unhappy? Why do they want to kill each other?

I'd like to know the answer to that. I'd also like to know why two random "gangsta" fellows murdered the student body president of UNC.

You and every other "Theory Fighter" out there who think shit works in reality like it works out on paper are pretty damned sad. Stigma comes with every single one of those programs that supposedly help blacks and other races succeed. Affirmative Action isn't a fix, it doesn't solve the apprehensions various people have because of race and it doesn't help anyone, specifically blacks, overcome the problems of being "that guy." You're invalidated because you were "given" a position when your peers, people such as yourself specifically, start talking about how you were just placed there to fill a role.

Your word doesn't mean shit here. First of all, present what he said and then illustrate how it suddenly proves me wrong. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that when you do attempt to do so and fail, I'm going to have to point out how Bill Cosby and other "high profile blacks" aren't in a majority, compared to the majority of blacks who still live in poverty and have to resist the temptations of what's "easy."

But I don't have to prove shit yet, because you fucking fail at discourse and debate.


DO MY EYES DECEIVE ME.

It's kind of hard to relate to these statistics and quotes that you aren't posting. The burden of proof being on you, you sure are doing a shitty job of illustrating anything other than the fact you're an idiot.

I think it has less to do with my grammar and a bit more to do with how little you understand about what I'm saying.

Based off what you're talking about, you obviously feel that those two things just don't matter in comparison to a genre of music. You never needed to explicitly state it, cognitive reasoning would state that you would rather address those niggers and their devil music.


You haven't provided a single statistic or established any kind of "point" since you got on about this.


You brought up Native Americans as a straw man. The point here: If they're not an issue then don't bring them up.

So what's the point you are trying to make? Affirmative Action hasn't fixed anything? I would have to agree. I would say that the fix would start at making blacks truly equal and to stop useless compensations. That's just my opinion though. Although, I would say this is slightly drifting from the topic at hand.

I think this should explain mainly what I am talking about.
CNN.com - The outspoken Bill Cosby - Nov 11, 2004

I don't think this should be turned into a "why do blacks live in poverty thread". The point I am making here, is that blacks highly contribute to the high murder rate in America, and statistics prove it. Prove me wrong.

I don't see the point in anything you have said rather than to discredit my argument. You would rather shove everything under the rug and not address real issues and sympathize with blacks as a whole, rather than admit there is an issue at hand.

Your lack of grammar destroys your credibility and deems your posts "laughable".

I believe the music only contributes to the issue. I don't have a problem with people listening to it, but when they take it to heart and allow their culture to revolve around it, that's when it becomes somewhat of an issue.

Obviously you haven't read the whole thread. Do you really need me you point it out to you? Also, it seems the only way you continue to advance your argument is to resort to name-calling, which is a sad and pathetic retort, as always.

I used them as a comparison to explain the issue revolving around blacks.

I merely expressed my opinion on the murder rates issue. Learn to argue and stop being a spiteful cunt.

Right. My point was that because of this fact, it's wrong to invoke it as a supposed "benefit" to blacks or any other culture in society. I think there's still resolution that needs to be made, but that's neither here nor there, so yes, let's drop this. We're sort of in agreement, I can call that progress for now.


Look, don't insult my intelligence by pointing me or anyone else to an entire article. Summarize whatever backs up your point or refutes mine, quote it, do something... but don't toss it in my face. Debate doesn't work that way.

Here's the thing, I don't disagree with you on this. It's your line of reasoning for "why" that I disagree with. Yes, gangs are a problem, blacks are not the only race of people who partake in organized crime. Nor are they the only ones to use a source of media to justify their actions. You can say that about anybody who lives a criminal lifestyle. Hackers use fictional characters like Radical Edward as a mascot. Italian Mafiosos love the Godfather films and Goodfellas. That said, media isn't the problem, the very idea of blaming the media takes the blame, the responsibility off of the shoulders of people who break the law and places it solely on the people who merely tell stories about it.

Which group of people are breaking the law, Tesla? "The Devil made me do it" is not an excuse, so why should "dem rap lyrics made me do it" be different?

Again, my point isn't that "blacks are not the majority right now", I don't care if they are or aren't. Nor is it, "blacks live in poverty, that sucks and you should feel it sucks too." I'm saying your reasoning is flawed. That there's a reason that so many blacks turn to drugs and crime as a way to live.

The "Civil Rights" era ended, I'd say, in the 80s. That isn't 200-400 years ago. Blacks have just begun to see themselves in society as more than just second class citizens. As they assert themselves in these positions, they have to face old prejudices, new prejudices, social stigma... a lot of things that outline the problems that have lingered from years of being poorly educated and held down by American society.

No, Tesla. Let me blunt: I think you're a racist in denial. Something in me feels that you either hear that often, or not often enough. I don't even like saying it. I think you have some underlying issues with blacks that have broken the law that puts you in an outrage and prevents you from distinguishing between an individual and the crimes they commit and a group of people who shouldn't all be associated with wrong doing just because "OMG, majority."

I think the instant neus presented his question and you willfully stated you wanted to know the answers, you completely discredited your body of reasoning that I addressed in the first place.

Already addressed this.


No, no, no. Where are the statistics based on rap, the media? Typically, anything that either glorifies or empathizes with a criminal lifestyle has people who look up to something in the media to justify what they do. You haven't presented any statistics regarding blacks and rap and "percentage of people who break the law that listen to rap music." And even if you did, you'll NEVER win a conclusive argument with that approach, because even scholars and psychiatrists aren't entirely sure how much affect the media has on antisocial behavior.


A comparison that had no merit whatsoever and explained nothing.

Well I completely missed your point then. As I said before, it's not exactly easy to understand what you are saying as your thoughts are poorly organized.


Why don't you educate yourself and look for the information rather than asking me to throw it at you. It isn't my place to educate you. Quit being stupid.

Yes, I agree; however, I think that it is quite evident that there is a crisis among the black community. It is more prevalent than other cultures. Also, I think it's quite ironic how you bash me earlier for making a comparison between ethnic groups, yet you are doing the same thing here. Well done.

Did I say the rap music was the exact cause? No, I only said it contributes to the problem. LEARN TO READ!

Of course there is a reason. Tell me how my reasoning is flawed. I see nothing wrong with my reasoning. You are misinterpreting everything I say, and I suggest you slow down and read. I never said rap was the only reason. I said it is a possibility that it contributes to the problem, considering that's what gangsta rap music is all about, and it's such an issue in the black community. To blame everything exclusively on rap music would be idiocy. Again, quit putting words in my mouth.

And other races don't? That's the point I was trying to make by relating them to Native Americans. By your logic, women should be equally compensated for dealing with the same "old prejudices" which have existed for thousands of years. Quit grasping for straws.

Ah, the old bigot retort. If I am a racist, does that make Bill Cosby a racist? You know nothing about me so don't even go there. There is an issue in the black community today, according to the statistics I have presented. You are in denial and do a good job at shunning the truth. I never said murder rates were high only because of blacks. Show me where I said that, you will be unsuccessful. Just because my first few posts on the subject were ill-explained isn't an excuse to tell me that I am a racist. I do not believe blacks are solely to blame for the high murder rates; however, I do believe they are a contributing factor.

The statistics cannot be ignored, quit being a coward and admit it.

Which is precisely why I said it may be a contributing factor and it is concerning. I said, "maybe", keyword there. Again, learn to read. As I have said before, I am not the only person who believes this way, and I linked you to an article where Bill Cosby feels the same way.

Obviously, you just suck at interpreting what I say.

The statistics only indicate that there is something significantly wrong in the way the majority of black America lives. When thrown into outright poverty, crime quickly becomes a real option. The very nature of this country's policies allows for a highly profitable drug trade to prosper, and the ones left running it are the ones left with no where else to turn. Murder then turns out to a way of making more money, of finding your way out of the ghetto, of actually having a comfortable standing in life.

So before you're so quick to blame this country's problems on a single race, or any group of people, look a little deeper into the issue. Rap has only become one of many scapegoats the media at large, and petty hate mongers such as yourself, like to spew out.

There is no simple answer to this incredibly complex and widespread issue. Quit trying to make it sound like there is. You sound like a douche bag.

White kid doesn't understand crime causation and black culture? Well I never.

In black markets, murder is a tool to force out competition or to guarantee the honoring of informal contracts. That's what happens when business can't be run legitimately.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Did I say anything about it being JUST Black people? no. Did I ever say rap was the only contributing factor? no.

I merely said they may be contributions to the issue. I understand it is a complex issue. The only point I am trying to make is that there is a problem in the black community today, and they definitely contribute to the high murder rates. I never said anything about black people being the only reason why murder rates are high. Quit mis-interpreting what I say.

Yeah, shut up.

Did you stop to think that maybe violent music is symptomatic of a problem and not the cause of it?

Absolutely. Either way, I believe it has some bearing over the youth today.

So you think that Immortal Technique has more influence in regards to the "Don't Snitch" movement than police abuses and their incompetent protection of state's witnesses?

Just keep riding bikes around your cul-de-sac, honky. Tipper Gore could not link causation to suggestive lyrics, what makes you think you're right?

Citation please on the grades part. I think that's wrong. I'm pretty sure it's wrong in Arizona, anyway.

(You're right on the crime rates, but looking only at the rate isn't enough. A large part of that is because Native Americans are typically policed by Native Americans, while blacks are typically policed by whites.)

Ok I agree with you, I think you are just missing my point. The "Don't Snitch" movement obviously is another contributing factor, and definitely has more relevance. It has obviously initiated a catharsis among black youth; however, it would be ignorant to say that rap music is not influential. It influences the way people act, talk, and behave. I would ask you to stop being condescending just because your opinions may differ from mine, although from my perspective, they do not seem far off.

Also, Tipper Gore is an idiot.

You're confusing correlation with causation. Again.

Rap music is only indicative of what people already think. Music speaks to people because it plays to their state of mind. If Public Enemy spoke to a disenfranchised demographic, it shouldn't have been surprising that a large portion of their fanbase was young white suburbanites.

Your claim that rap music influences behavior doesn't hold water, since the hyper masculine and misogynistic culture existed before Hip Hop was even folk music.

Blacksploitation Films embodied similar problems with black culture long before rap.

YouTube Video

Now this is where we disagree. Rap music isn't to blame for the high crime rates among the black community, but it is responsible for the present culture they present, especially among the youth. Basically, every black guy on MTV or BET presents themselves in a way that definitely is influenced by rap culture. Rap culture promotes violence, so it wouldn't be outlandish to make a connection somewhere. I am not saying that it leads everyone to participate in crime. I'm saying that it is possible that rap music may contribute to the gang/criminal behavior. Obviously, some just listen to it because it sounds good; although, it does in some way influence the way black people in today's society act. That is a fact.

A fact? Oh, really now? According to whom, exactly?

I don't feel the same way. Though that would have as much merit as dissing your posts and propping my own.

I'd love to see you in an actual debate. It'd be hilarious to see the following transpire:

"Bill Cosby actually said something that supports my argument and refutes yours."

"What'd he say?"

"You don't even know? You're stupid!"

"..."

You were asking me to look at another group of people and regard their situation as far worse as if it alleviates the issue at hand. It doesn't establish any sort of point at all. What were you trying to say? "The Native Americans are committing mass murder?" If you were, there aren't as many Native Americans as Blacks. No, really, what was your point? My comparison had merit, yours was a straw man.


I'm saying it doesn't contribute, genius. Specifically because it isn't proven conclusively.


I have been.

That's not saying a lot.

Refuting. Re-fut-ing.

Wasn't what I was calling you out on.

You could do that or... you could not blame it at all? There's an idea.

About that whole putting words in someone's mouth. There's plenty of racism for all, but blacks are the issue at hand here. Don't get mad at me for sticking to the issue. "It happens to other races, too!" doesn't work because we're not talking about other races, are we? You want to draw comparisons, but you suck at making any comparison that isn't, at best, a distraction.

Those other races have other cultural and historical differences and have responded differently, they've all faced and adapted to these things at varying degrees. You want to go down that road? Be my guest. The way things are going I'll ignore and/or disagree with you every step of the way.


It's the perception I have of you based off what you're talking about. And, it looks like I'm right. By the way, Bill Cosby? That's self-hatred or disappointment, not racism. Big difference!

Ah, those non-existent ones for media influence. Right, sure.


And when I retorted, you began treating it as if it were a bit more than "maybe." You fucking fail, man.

Prove it. :tpg:

I was referring to my last sentence.
If you can't see that it does influence behavior on any scale, than you're an idiot. I see people doing the "soulja boy" dance all the time.

People do the soulja boy because they're retards, but soulja boy didn't make them retards, therefore QED you are an idiot.

Let me just be sure to quote this before you decide to change anything. It's a shining beacon, a silent shout, proclaiming your downright ignorance, and I'd like to let everyone savor that.

And you really had the gall to call another poster out on his grammar?

Did I say soulja boy was responsible for making them retards?

I said he has influence. If he had no influence then they wouldn't be doing it, now would they?

He has about as much influence as Los del Río.

Right, but you haven't shown why we should care about soulja boy's influence. Bad Rap is not a problem that needs to be addressed, it's the society that creates bad rappers like soulja boy, but you continue to insist on beating the Hip Hop stick like the uninformed middle class cracker you are.

Alright that's enough, I admit my defeat. Thread is getting derailed. I'm done flashing my edick around.

OTHER THAN AFRICAN AMERICANS, why is the murder rate so high?

You might be onto something here. Last I heard the lyrics to soulja boy had been remixed.

Soulja Boy up in it (OH!)
Watch Me Lean And Watch Me Rock
Super Man Dat (OH!)
Then Watch Me Crank Dat Robocop
Super Fresh, Now Watch Me Jock
Jocking On Them Haterz Man
When I Do Dat Soulja Boy
I Lean To The Left And Stab A Nigga

Tellin you, them darkies are up to something.

Oh god I lol'd. Well played.

What is American culture? Why do you feel its more violent? Do you think countries in Africa like Zimbabwe or Somalia are more peacefull than the US? Why do many of them come to the US at the first chance they get? Could it be that we are more violent so they come?


Not all cultures are equal, the US is a mix of many cultures yet they are all of one.

No. No they aren't. I'm going to blow your mind.

Are you ready? I mean... really ready? I'm going to blow it.

Right now. Here it comes.



Is it blown? I bet it is.


Look, just because some textbook tells you that America is a melting pot, that doesn't make it true. If America was a melting pot, you would have no problem with embracing a Hispanic population, or a Muslim population, or an Asian population. But guess what? You fucking do. Because it's not a melting pot.

You toss around the word culture like it has some deep, intrinsic meaning but it just doesn't. You can talk all you like about your bullshit philosophy, but at the end of the day, it's just hot air on your part. You've been cutting a swath with this idiocy so far, and it's laughable. You haven't had a coherent, intelligent point since the first post you've made. What are you, 14?

Its the majority White executives who own the big recording companies and black thugs who talk about a hard life, like snoop dog while living the good life. This gives poor kids a violent role model, teaches them its ok to steal from whitey and be a thug. It should also be noted majority of record sales are purchased by white kids.

A society that creates bad rappers? I think blacks have it better today than they did 20 years ago. lets look back 20 years " woosh" going back in time sound. Tone loc, too short, Run DMC, Fat Boys, Salt&Peppa and the list goes on. I can think of only a small handfull that started the whole violent gangsta rap. Ice T, NWA and maybe a song or two by two live crew.

I say its blacks not steping up to the plate on a large scale. Instead its more convenient to blame whitey while groups lead by people like sharpton and jessie jackson continue to fuel the belief that they are victims. It's really funny how Chinese, Japanese, Korean and all the other people from India, Europe came come over, some with out even knowing english and do quite well but a black american born here can't make it..

Yeah, they uh... they did fine... EXCEPT FOR THE FUCKING PRISON CAMPS DURING THE WARS.

Oh yeah, no poor, or down on their luck asian people. NOOOO. Don't exist. Couldn't be because blacks make up a larger demographic. NOOOO. European people came over? Did fine? THE IRISH AND THE CHINESE BUILT THE FUCKING RAILROADS. They were practically slave labour! God, get fucked.

You don't know politics, history OR rap music. Stop talking.

When you go to another country do you force them to adopt your ways or embrace theirs? Why go to another country in the first place if you want to make it a shithole you just left?

America was a melting pot back in the 50's when people were proud to be Americans, learned english and did their part. Now days its all about who can get what, who can be a victim, who can sue for not hiring someone who refuses to take their head scarf off at work or can't get a drivers licence because their burka blocks their face. I wish it was more of a mealting pot.

Why we won't embrace unhinged migration from mexcio? You serious, look at the states surrounding the boarder with mexico, they are going broke!! Whats wrong with following the rules if you are going to come to this country, go pay some US taxes!! I'm not saying they are to blame for all of the problem but are most certainly part of it.


Quote:You haven't had a coherent, intelligent point since the first post you've made. What are you, 14?

I notice you personaly attack people you disagree with a lot, I won't be feeding in to it. Have a nice day.

Deni, it will be a long time before Asians are actually recognized as a component of American society.

Either you can't read, or you're trying to change the argument since you quite blatantly lost it. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming it's the former. I didn't say America SHOULD accept everyone, I'm saying they -don't- so your argument about how Asians and Europeans assimilate just fine to American culture is complete bullshit.

See, I was so right you turned around and argued for me. What does that tell you about the validity of your points? Save us all the trouble and stop posting for the sake of running your fucking mouth.


I notice you can't comprehend an argument very well. Rest assured your opinions will be refuted with knowledge for the length of your hopefully exceedingly short stay.

And if you think I'm troublesome, wait until Brady and Pang take notice of your bullshit. They're way more defensive of US history than I am.

Even per captia Asians, Indians and many other minoritys fare much better than blacks in the US. Again I say not all cultures are equal. Some embrace learning as a priority, some embrace family and so forth.

Additional Spam:
I honestly could care less, history teachs us misstakes of the past, how long are we going to use history to justify why certain people today have it harder? When we stop making excuses and start taking responsibility than maybe stuff can get done.

I look forward to debating Islam for sure.

So far you've proven to be both ignorant, and a liar. Good on you. You're gonna go far.

How the fuck are you on a debate team? You're horrible at this. You constantly try and change your argument when you get proven wrong. First it was all other cultures get along fine, then it was all cultures don't get along fine, then it was just blacks and mexicans are a problem.

You clearly aren't taking sociology/anthropology, or you might know a little bit of culture theory. The problem with assimilation of black culture isn't that they put a priority on family or any other bullshit philosophy you're spouting. It has nothing to do with a desire for knowledge, it has to do with opportunity. A large portion of black people go to school in areas that lack the funds for proper learning tools. They exist in a world where gangs are more of a chance to move up in the world than an education is. What you're doing right now? There's a word for it: ethnocentric. You're assuming there is some inherent genetic problem, some cultural difference that keeps them from succeeding. Bullshit. Asian people? Yeah, the stereotype there is poor parents and inner city neighbourhoods.

Again: Stop posting. You're clearly out of your depth. When we need someone to tell us about white man's guilt and how we should all hug a homeless person, we'll call. Until then, shut the fuck up.

P.S.

No one else wants to debate Islam with you, because you're completely out of your depth there, too. Go post in TQP.

And with that, this thread can return to the eternal slumber from which it was so rudely awakened.