Final Fantasy 12 - Unappreciated or underwear
 

I believe that its storyline is unappreciated from the majority of the fans, I can’t believe. I can’t say that’s it perfect (no story is) because I fill that it wasn’t well integrated with the gameplay and on some occasion tried to disguise it dungeon crawler elements. I mean there’s a wonderful execution of subtlety to the way the character reveals themselves to players and have a better level of maturity to these characters then those like Squall or Tidus who either Nojima or Kitase feel the need to have them go on this Inuyasha like dramatics. So yeah, best cast since Final Fantasy 6 if you ask me. So I was hoping that the RPG fans here who feels that the story was underwhelming could do a better a job explaining on why they that felt that 12 story is lacking compared to the previous entries, and for those who liked it what or your feelings on the reviews that I posted? I’m sure there won’t be any complaints from Revenant Wings since it not being helmed by Matsuno and instead by Motomu Toriyama.

I mean did anyone even that seen the review of gametrailers, I mean come.
Gametrailers.com - Final Fantasy XII - Review

Here’s another of my hated review for Final Fantasy 12 for not being like it predecessor (mainly being seven through ten).
No Love for Final Fantasy 12 at Unlimited Gamer

I don't like FF12 only because it didn't feel too much like a FF game. Battle system looked horrible, the fucking story put me to sleep in the beginning since it looked too much like a LotR game. I stepped back and watched my older brother play it. He put the controller down and sold the game back and ended up buying 2 DS (PW and hotel dusk) games instead. I'm not sure how anyone here feels but at least you can always trust your friends at Famitsu for they have given the game a perfect score ;p.

You should be lucky that the Angry Nintendo Nerd hasn't looked this up yet.

I must admit I found the gameplay somewhat fun at early stages of the game but when you get to the point where you can have everyone pretty much do what they need to do without really doing anything, that's when everything becomes tiresome. I never really bothered with the story since it was a yawn and a half right at the get-go.

There are some fun stuff of course, like the notorious monsters, or whatever it's called. I like fighting huge things :X

Final Fantasy XII Reviews

Average score of 90.9%? Unappreciated? Please.

If you look at all the RPGs, it shows up 27th. Out of all RPGs. That's pretty good. Final Fantasy XII is nowhere near unappreciated or underrated.

Personally I found it pretty bad, but believe me, the "majority of fans" don't hate it.

I loved several aspects of this game (including story)... maybe it has too many innovations for the hardcore RPG gamer.

Anyways, amazing game... way too long for my taste and without a Guide some stuff is just impossible to figure it out, but that's irrelevant.

Innovations? What innovations?

FF XII had a ton of promise and then it was absolutely scrapped by a story that went nowhere and an ending that was horridly disappointing.

What do you mean the story went nowhere? You basically take control of this Vaan dude who really really wants to go on an adventure. Then like twenty minutes later he embarks on an adventure. I guess you probably were expecting a story that took more than twenty minutes to resolve though. I can see where you might be disappointed in that.

In all seriousness, I think the main problem with what little story you were presented with was that you are never really given any reason to care about any of the characters. Either you like the archetypal character you were presented with, or you didn't. None of them really changed throughout the game. Vaan is a kid wanting to go on an adventure when you meet him. He is a kid on an adventure midway through the game, and he is a kid who has gone on an adventure at the end. Yeah, that's some real emotion shit there. Balthier is Mos Eisley Han Solo at the beginning. At the end he is still pretty much Mos Eisley Han Solo with a little added backstory.

Hmm... I dont know, maybe the gambit system?... a story not entirely based on the characters (usually emo) but in a bigger stuff (war, city relation, etc)?

Granted, a story not entirely based around the characters lacks some appeal, however, some people find it far more interesting than the usual cliché character development.

Yeah. Setting AI for your character is novel and has never been done before. Not ever in MMORPGs, or in Tales Games, or even in Secret of Mana when you could set your characters from attack to healing on a grid.

And a story not entirely based on characters? FF Tactics? Suikoden? Suikoden II? Romance of the Three Kingdoms? Dude, these aren't innovations.

Yeah, wow, I wouldn't know anything about story development at all. No sir. Not like I make a living working on story development. FF XII just lacked it. It ended very poorly, and the story went nowhere for a huge amount of time. Sorry that offends you so.

Since you have to see it in that way: A novelty for a traditional RPG series... (And even then, the depth this system goes is quite impressive)

Weird stuff, for some reason I disagree with your point of view...

Do I have to explain the concept of the narrative structure to you? Really?

Researching a little bit about the world reception of the game I found it has been praised by everyone about its story and pretty much everything... so I was going to shove it in your face... until I found this: Interview : Akitoshi Kawazu (FF XII) ... not much to say. (Well, they archived a beautiful world)

They achieved a GORGEOUS world. I -love- Ivalice. I always have. I like that the games set in Ivalice usually have a fairly political bend to them. I love the concepts behind them, I like what they tried to do with XII, I Just think they came up sort.

Also:

Tu parle francais, monsieur Tafer?

I like the world. Like, the literal world: the landscape, the changes in scenery (which could've been more subtle than a loading screen, though). I was having almost the same rush as I had when roaming around the world in Shadow of the Colossus, except FFXII had mostly crappy background music to ruin the mood. It would've been so much better with ambience or even just silence. Or a Masaharu Iwata soundtrack, but let's not get into that.

I'm off-topicing, but I'm also bored.

Just enough to dig for stuff. (For everything else, good translators save the day)

Oh well, I guess there was a reason for all those moments where I felt like something was missing or this is going sloooow.

I actually agree with both Kishin and Tafer.

Here, Tafer, let me better explain my position and it might make more sense. I got into the game early. Balthier was straight up old school Han Solo or Indiana Jones. I love characters like that. Vaan is useless, but the teen hero always is (god forbid we ever get to play a grown up). The story starts, and there's some pump to it. You steal some stuff, it gets taken from you, a castle blows up. Hey, look at this pony go. And then there are all these bits where the story just -stalls-. It doesn't keep the narrative pace going, the sidequests seem to take you out of the action, rather than enhancing it, and the clip of the story is always interrupted by these sort of pointless filler bits. Like something just wasn't there to really bump it along.

You hit the nail on the head for how I feel about the game. I was given no real inscentive to continue on the quest, a quest where I had no idea what was going on, nor was interested. If you don't have an interesting or compelling story, atleast give me some compelling characters to fall back on. Alas, this game had neither, and was a tremendous disappointment.

This is something else I've noticed: Why is it the more "Medieval" Final Fantasy are, the more idealistic the main character becomes? Squall, Cloud and Tidus lived in worlds with technology comparable or better than modern times, but they were significantly more introverted than, say, Zidane or Vaan, or might as well have been living in the Victorian era. It might have something to do with them being the "charming thief/sky pirate" archetype (see: Locke), but it's still interesting.

There are a couple reasons I keep hearing on why many people didn't like the story. For one, there's no sub-plot. Inherently, this isn't a bad thing, there are plenty of stories that rely on just one theme and stick with it, but in this case I think people couldn't find anything in the plot to latch onto when they played it. It was a rebels versus empire scenario pretty much from start to finish, with some lore about the Aeons thrown in to pad out the world and make it more organic. FFXII carried on the whole Ivalice mythos from FF Tactics/Tactics Advance, so it didn't need to devote itself to a lot of expository scenes explaining where the player was or their place in the world. The monster guides kinda gave anyone who was willing all the background they needed anyway, but often at the cost of hunting certain creatures for hours to get info that may or may not be beneficial. The main quest was very point A to point B pretty much throughout (with a lot of backtracking required for nearly any quest), with virtually nothing revealed about many of the characters in the process aside from basic personalities and habits. People like a certain amount of intimacy with the characters they play in RPGs, and it's like the more you *wanted* to get involved in this story, the less it actually gave you.

The translation was excellent, though. I won't argue against that because honestly I can't see a bad side to it. I wish Alexander Smith did more games.

If we're discussing whether FFXII is underwhelming or underappreciated:
Talaysen already pointed out that with an average numerical score of about 91%, and high marks wherever you go, it's certainly not underappreciated. Meanwhile, there are a vocal few that have found it underwhelming, perhaps becaus of how different it is from other Final Fantasies, in certain ways.

To chip in my own opinion, I ejoyed it more than any Final Fantasy in the last 10 years. Loved the battle system, loved the setup, loved the story, loved the presentation. One of my favorites for sure, and Zodiac Job System is even better. Shame that it won't be released in America. Shame.

Somewhere in between, in my opinion. I think the one thing that Vagrant Story and Tactics have in advantage to XII is that they have a stronger element of subtlety. The game is more plot than character driven, so I'm not too hot and bothered by the lack of "character development" in this case. Especially considering that what they do go with is standard fare for something along the lines of Tactics Ogre or Final Fantasy Tactics.

I think there are a lot of expectations placed on the game based on how different it is from past Final Fantasy titles, the major conflict stemming from having to please two audiences who expect some very different things.

I'm one of those guys who get into the countless side quest the game offers (I loved the hunting stuff), when I get bored (or cant find anything else to do)... I continue the story, without a doubt this is why I didn't notice major problems with the story.

Meh, the game took quite a while to come... I guess this kind of stuff was expected.

For someone that doesn't care about the plot in videogames anymore (as evidenced by my undying love for Grandia Xtreme), how's the actual gameplay in FFXII? Is it a game that's just fun to sit down and play for a few hours a week?

If by a few hours you mean level grinding with AI that basically means you don't even have to touch a button. So if you want to watch your people run around a desert and then run away and hit something, repeat ad nauseum, then sure.

A lot of the glaring issues present in the initial release are addressed in the International version of the game. A few for the cause, the damage cap of 9999 is still in place and I still have no freaking idea why this was implemented into XII. Of all the things not to do away with. Most of your debuffing arsenal is near worthless at times, save for a certain piece of equipment that some consider gamebreaking. One of the most powerful weapons in the game is susceptible to some bullshit that the game doesn't tell you about where you can all but prevent yourself from getting it because you opened a few chests in certain areas. The other powerful weapon is only obtainable after you kill the enemies you would want to use it on.

Hunts will keep you engaged and can be quite fun, though this is on the most grind heavy games I've played in a while. Especially if you're aiming at completionism. I really just have to say again that the International version is what the game should have been.

Deni outsponded me with a rather good point. The game makes a lot of the battles that would occur in other games go on "auto pilot", the true crux of the game's battles lies in the major fights. Which require management and precision or something. If you enjoy that sort of thing, it's quite fun... if preparation and constantly killing things over and over is sleep enducing to you, welcome to one of the greatest sleep aids this RPG generation.

Except that it still doesn't fix the plot.

Story in games is one gigantic gray area to me, so I really can't dispute that nor can I stand behind it. I was more disappointed by the game at hand, characters taking a second hand to other types of plot is something I've learned to tolerate in certain instances. I was especially fond of FF Tactics, though most traditionalists I knew hammered the point home about how none of the storyline characters mattered after their parts had been played.

First of all, I really like FFXII. However, I agree that the main plot isn't very beefy. I felt like it ended too quick since I like stories that take me for a ride. Not much happened. And I think that's why the characters are underdeveloped, because they were presented like characters in a serial drama and were being revealed slowly through the main plot. This is what FFVI did, but it also gave more character development through side quests. If FFXII had that kind of side quests, it'd be fixed. The story as it is only really satisfies people with a sweet-tooth for history because Ivalice has plenty of character development.

The battle system is cool, but it's too easy to exploit like the one in FFVIII. Whenever I replay both of these games, I systematically impose limits on how I customize the characters. In FFXII, you can turn off gambits and common battles are demanding, but then boss battles are sometimes impossible so you have to use the gambits for them a lot. I can't say it's not a flaw that taking advantage of the battle system makes it less engaging. I found a way around it so that it's fun for me, but games should force you to have fun.

Here's a different kind of write up from the usual:

Toastyfrog.com: Compendium of Useless Information : Games - Final Fantasy XII browse

I think that the majority of Final Fantasy fans do indeed have less than joyous feelings on it. At least that's what I always read about on IGN's Final Fantasy board. "The battle system sucks because you're watching the computer play", "the game has no story", "the characters have no development", "I hate random chests", "Fran's voice is horrible", etc. I'd say that FFXII is probably the most love or hate Final Fantasy game since FFVIII.

Even though I absolutely agree with most that the end of the game seemed rushed and that the pacing was noticeably off during the trek to Archades, I liked FFXII a great deal. For me it's easily the best Final Fantasy game since FFVII, and I agree with Kikoha Hater that it has the best Final Fantasy cast since FFVI. I'm one of those who thought that FFX was pretty bad, however, so my taste is not quite the same as that of most Final Fantasy fans. It should also be said that I've always been a fan of Matsuno since the original Ogre Battle. While the characters could've been touched upon a bit more, I didn't mind the emphasis on plot at all, and the storytelling itself was mostly way better than the over the top crap we've been getting from Kitase/Nomura since FFVII. The characters were MUCH more mature and the political story, while perhaps not up to the level of FFT or Tactics Ogre, was definitely a breath of fresh air compared to the cliched anime stories of FFVIII/X.

As for the combat system, I liked it. The License Grid was pretty unremarkable, and I would've liked some way of differentiating your characters a little better, but mostly I had fun. The world was great and hunting marks was certainly much better than the ridiculous minigames from FFX. I'm a gameplay kind of guy and FFXII was mostly good for me in that regard. That being said, maybe the most disappointing thing for me is that there weren't enough new enemy types towards the end. The enemies started getting recycled earlier than I would've liked.

Oh, and I like the soundtrack too. It's not Vagrant Story, but it's still pretty damn good, and definitely one of Sakimoto's best efforts. I disagree with anybody who thinks that Uematsu ever surpassed or matched FFVI with his later Final Fantasy scores anyhow.

Ultimately I thought it was a good fusion of Japanese and Western RPG styles, so I'd probably agree that it's underappreciated, though I'm not sure that I'd consider it a 'great' RPG. 'Very good' isn't a bad place to be though, and I like it way more than FFVIII, FFIX, and FFX.

If by traditionalists you're referring to Final Fantasy or JRPG fans, I've found that most of them like FFT a great deal. In fact, just about every person *that I've run into* who dislikes FFXII happens to like FFT a lot.

I actually agree with that notion however, but only because Tactics Ogre does a better job of reminding you that various party members are still there as the story progresses. As much as people love to heap praise upon FFT's story, it's true that NPC characters like Agrias pretty much disappear from the story once they join your party. FFT is strange in that a couple of moments make you think it'll be a Tactics Ogre kind of affair where you can influence the outcome of events and the direction of the storyline but that aspect was obviously dropped from the final product.

I didn't quite run into that crop of Final Fantasy fan, and I don't know if I was clear about it, but I do agree with that point of theirs. Just didn't really deter me from enjoying the game's plot. It just wasn't a character driven story, there are stories like that and I appreciate them.

Me neither and me too. Which makes it all the more strange that fans of character driven stories would love FFT and yet dislike FFXII. I guess that it's primarily because of Ramza and Delita. That prologue chapter was a great setup for the story.

Because FFT was a full, robust story, whereas FF XII feels like a little kid running through a big world and some stuff happens, but you can't ever really find out anything about it oh and here's a pretty CG cut scene and Balthier is funny.

That's why.

I'm sure someone out there could summarize the plot and make it sound strikingly good on paper, Deni. Again, I know of people who could play a Final Fantasy game and remove the story from the equation as far as their enjoyment is concerned.

I don't disagree that FFT probably has the better story, but I really don't think that FFXII's story is so bad. It's simply told through a larger perspective. It really is the story of Dalmasca. I guess that it's alienating for those who are accustomed to having the world revolve around the main character. In FFXII it's more like you're part of a larger whole. FFXII makes you feel smaller in that respect, but I appreciate that as an element of the kind of realism that the game goes for, and I found myself enjoying the NPC interaction. Rather than having things happen constantly to your guys in scripted fashion, FFXII has a lot of moments where it's up to you to make something happen, and that sort of design approach is definitely not for everyone, but I personally don't mind it. Some of my favorite RPGs are like that, and yes, I like FFVI's World of Ruin, which some Final Fantasy fans abhor.

Definitely. By the same token, it's easy to simplify things and make other Final Fantasy stories sound bad.

Excellent point there. This kind of trend is present in games like Front Mission, Final Fantasy Tactics, Ogre Battle/Tactics Ogre... all politically themed, with their respective characters sometimes taking a backseat to the events of the world. At another message board I frequent, it was basically put that Vaan isn't the main character of the game. It's Balthier, he states it as such. But I thought it was an interesting way of presenting the story to the player. There are so many things that aren't just spelled out to the player, and I've never been able to say it enough: I appreciate that.

There's nothing wrong with a story that doesn't do this, but I like seeing these large overarching events just transition, smash into each other, or branch off into other things. We get a greater look at certain themes that just aren't possible on a story that is scaled to the perspective of character experiences. It's hard to show how a political plot affects an entire nation when you're only staring at a few of its citizens.

I liked Final Fantasy XII's story, for pretty much similar reasons to Megavolt. They could have done so much worse.

"They could have done so much worse."

You mean like they did in Revenant Wings?

Witty, Torte.

Goddammit, I like Revenant Wings. The story doesn't have its head up its own ass so much.

Well I'm not sitting here saying it's FF VIII levels of atrocious story and character development. Not even close. What I'm saying is, yes, it's good but given the amazing world they're in, it could have been so much more.

Shit does indeed happen. And I can get behind that. Compared to a lot of games I've played for story, it's still comparatively better but I can't argue that it could have been so much more. There are so many things I nitpick XII about as far as story or even just the game is concerned. I'm sure Matsuno lost his mind (I know about his departure from the game) trying to fuse his style of game and story with what we traditionally expect from Final Fantasy.

Yeah I really wish there was a way to turn gambits off. That would have eliminated that problem pretty much entirely. If only it were possible.

Does this really have much bearing on anything? As has been established by now, reviewers who don't give good marks to high profile games get fired. The game could be a giant steaming turd and it's still going to get 90%+ because it's a big name Final Fantasy game and nobody dares say anything bad about it because they want to keep their jobs and ad revenue.

As I see it, the problem is two-fold. One, it seems to still be a novel idea to hire honest-to-goodness writers to work on these games, so you're not getting what might be considered professional work to begin with.

Two, Squeenix really doesn't have to put that much effort into the storyline, and they know it. They're not going to waste time and money on developing the plot when they can just pump resources into their CG farms, make it pretty, and get fat off the easily-pleased fans who only care about the visuals... or who will slavishly buy any Final Fantasy title no matter how bad it is, feeling that they're not a "true fan" if they skip any in the series.

Dude, you know that entire Gertsmann incident was hardly a simple case of "guy gives bad review and gets fired." There was a lot more going on than him turning in a bad review, as if he were trying to be subversive or some shit. The dude had shit taste in games and even shittier writing ability, but that brings us here:

Just because a person is a shitty writer, doesn't mean they aren't one. You make a living off writing, guess what? You're a writer.

This just discredits the production crew. Just because Square doesn't care about the story, doesn't mean their development teams don't care about their own projects. It's obvious this game took a toll on Matsuno, so I'm not quite sure what basis your comment has here at all.

People need do disconnect the marketing and business side of videogames from the development side.

It's been an obvious truth, for a very long time, that developers are often not given the opportunity to fulfill their artistic principles by forces outside of their environment. Final Fantasy XII was an interesting case. Why did they hire Matsuno? His games are usually aggressively deep in both story detail and gameplay. I wonder how much of his work was kept in the final product, and how much was changed when he stepped down. It definitely comes off as a half and half type of product. Matsuno and Minagawa's influences are seen, but they're almost obscured by traditional Final Fantasy staples.

I hear they fixed the license board in the re-release, though.

Are you referring to Gerstmann in particular? I don't think he was fired because he gave a game an average score. I've been reading his reviews over the years. He wasn't very good, and his Kane & Lynch video review was pedestrian at best.

"This game is ugly because A, B, and C. They curse alot. I do not like this game. It is kind of boring. There should be co-op online."

Being a professional, you'd think he'd write with a bit of flair.

Heh... I think the problem with the game (now that I had a moment to think about it), is that they were too ambitious.

This guys really tried to make not a great game or another generic FF, but an epic one... sadly they kinda crashed with "reality" and everything went downhill from there. But even then, they archive a good game. (I have to agree -now- that the story has many flaws, however, it isn't THAT bad)

In any case, I wonder how different was the original concept of the game... by the looks, it was going to be much more darker.

Finally, I hope this guys will have the chance to make what they want in the future.

Also.

AllRPG.com - Final Fantasy XII - Review

Suffering no loss of ad revenue or free games.

So now "One incident at Gamespot" = "Every reviewer everywhere."

Also, there are *cough* a few places one can look for that...don't fall back on ad revenue...at all:
RPG Land: Merry Christmas » News » Square Enix declines to show gameplay, knows you’ll buy crap anyway

But the best counterpoint to that, perhaps, lies in forums like this one and aggregator sites that let users review things. When the users are also gushing and giving 90%+, well, that says quite a bit too.

Really though, there are counterstories lying all over the place, plenty numerous, that aren't worth delving into individually to avoid spending too much time on this, but in recent memory, lots of people gave Assassin's Creed -- a high profile game with lots of bucks spent on advertising -- pretty average scores. Such to the point that Penny Arcade wrote a counter-review saying "Hey, reviewers, I thought it was great, ease up" which IGN subsequently got pissed about. (LOLIGN)
Speaking of IGN, I think they gave Kingdom Hearts II something like a 7.3, which by most people's scales, is not a blockbuster score. That guy didn't get fired. So let's not take the practices of Gamespot/CNet and assume they apply to every single media outlet in the world, eh?

Sigh.

Well, I personally loved FFXII. It was almost offputtingly different from most other Final Fantasies, but I felt this was neither a hindrance nor a benefit. I loved the game, and it's been a long time since I've last had so much quality time with a PS2 RPG. Easily in my top three favorite FFs.

Sure, it wasn't as gripping and utterly captivating as Vagrant Story, but then nothing is. I WISH it had the direction, pacing and tight writing of Matsuno's other works, but it was epic, it was fresh, it was a game that just kept giving. Maybe most RPG fans insist they're allowed to select Attack over and over instead of having the game do it for them. Maybe they felt vehemently insulted they're denied this privilege and let feel safe in their line dancing :boxing:

The only thing I'd really complain about the game was that the statistics presented when buying equipment was far too limited. You had all that space, why only show like two values when the equipment altered a dozen more.

Any adventure or RPG title that doesn't have a contrast/compare buy/equip system gets docked a point.

The problem with FF12 is there's barely any story. What little there was had promise and seemed interesting, but there was so little of it that I ended up not caring at all about what was going on. The characters also had next to no development what so ever. Vaan and Penelo were just kind of there and if they had fallen off the face of the planet, the story wouldn't have skipped a beat. At least Fran was kind of important since she's the only way you could get into her village, but other than that she was also just kind of there.

Not even the sidequests had anything to do with character or plot. The only time anyone says a damn thing is when you beat up those bounty hunter guys, but even then Balthier says about three sentences. Mostly you just wander around various locations and take out monsters. It's also like that with the plot. Go through a dungeon and maybe you'll get a short scene if you're lucky.

Overall, I was just throughly disappointed with how little they tried concerning character and plot development. Pretty graphics and a different battle system can only go so far.

The problem with the whole "world being the main character" argument is the fact that we're talking about a video game. This is not a movie. The world and society as the main focus of a narrative story is all well and good for a movie, but for a video game, it's completely ridiculous. Controlling characters who ulitmately affect something indirectly in the background is wholly unsatisfying. It's the same reason why movies that have flat, unmotivated characters fail - There's no personal connection. Looking for the personal connection with FFXII? Look elsewhere, this game is as distancing as they come.

Ultimately the characters have as much impact as the characters in any other RPG. The journey simply emphasizes your interaction with the world and NPCs more than it does each character's personal issues or ego along the way. Nevertheless, those personal elements are still there, even if they often take a backseat to the larger issue.

And the reason why world and society as a main focus can work in a videogame is because the main form of storytelling in a videogame is exploration and combat. In fact, the larger perspective can be a good thing, as FFX forced me to be closer to Tidus's personal perspective than I would've liked. :><:

I liked the characters in FFXII more than the characters in most RPGs. That they weren't over the top actually made them seem more genuine to me. Vaan and Penelo aren't anything special, but the game does a good job of presenting them as what they are. Two young people who want to defend their home.

Ashe could've been a little less distant, I suppose. But at least she wasn't a do-gooder for goodness sake, which is a step up from most Final Fantasy females.

I don't agree with this one bit. And here's why:

Something the audience needs to know right off the bat for any good narrative story to work is this - What's the goal? What's the point? Why? The characters didn't have any discernible goals in the game, not in the 20 hours I played anyway. The only one who had even a minute semblance of a goal was Balthier, and even then it wasn't compelling enough to drive the story.

In any (good) narrative piece, the audience has to know the reason why they are following these characters around. "I want to be a sky pirate and hit puberty finally" is not good enough. They need goals, specifically, they need a source of antagonism. A CLEAR source of antagonism. FFXII may have had sources of antagonism working against the protagonists, but fuck me if I had any clue what they were. You may at this point be citing the rival country or whatever that was against what they characters believed in. That's fine, but they weren't DIRECTLY affecting the characters, and thus, made this seem like a big waste of time.

20 hours in and not one reason to follow these characters around. FFX had Sin. FFVII had Sephiroth, FFVI had Kefka. All staple entries of the series. Why? A clear source of antagonism which gave us the inspiration to go ahead and kick ass and spend 53 hours leveling up.

So, seeing as how I come from a film background, take my whole "source of antagonism" argument and multiply it TENFOLD for a videogame. The personal connection is crucial to a videogame that wants to have a deep story, because if it's not there, the game becomes incredibly tedious. You're actually in control of these people, make the interesting! In a film, you're watching these things. It's more forgivable since it's usually just a 120 minute experience that is (in good movies) well-written and has an overall point.

But for an 80-hour game, do you honestly expect me to sit through that? My biggest problem was a big fat "WHY?!" Why am I moving these flat characters through this lush world? I had no reason to, and since the game wasn't any fun on top of that, I stopped playing it.

*phew!*

Now I'm not trying to antagonize you or anything, just showing you my perspective.

The angle I got from the game was that "The events unfolding are bigger then any one character or antagonist, but these people indirectly affect a larger portion of the world then that they even realize themselves. It was... I suppose the effect was that they were trying to show you that, instead of focusing on just the player's party and its immediate goals (Tag Along For the Ride, Save the World, Become a Sky Pirate, Get the Gold, Clear My Name, Save my Kingdom, etc.,) it was showing you the larger conflicts that while, not directly connected to what the player's party was doing, was affected in other ways regardless.

In that aspect the game's story was a fresh change.

However Sprout's complaints stem from a common problem that unfortunately the development team scummed to: They lost focus. They tried too hard to show you the other effects felt by NPCs and Nations at a whole, that the party's goals and motivations took a backseat, and so you're left not being quite sure WHY you're going to a desert oil rig or fighting a renegade god's minions or whatever else you might run into.

The likely cause of this was that Yasumi Matsuno fell Ill and internal politcal problems among the staff. So in order to save face and get the game out sometime before the next decade, they scrapped / swept under the rug a lot of exploratory cutscenes and character development which would have probably pushed the game's content to filling TWO DVDs.

That's why I think they released the International Zodiac System later on, as it was the original intended method, but there wasn't enough time to put it in before the deadline, so they went with the simpler system seen in the game (One obvious example of what they probably were originally planning is that each character uses their OWN License Board, instead of it shared amongst everyone, and that the Guest Characters are controllable).

So, it was a combination of rushing to finish the game, and a change of staff or something to that effect.

Of course my personal explanation/theory probably won't satisfy many, and even I am still left wondering: What exactly happened in the middle of development to cause the year-long delay?

Megavolt, I agree with everything you've just a said. I would have liked the personal perspective if Tidus wasn’t such a poorly conceived and executed character, which is funny when fans tries to justify is whining by saying “what would you do if you was tossed into a foreign world”, well I know what I wouldn’t do and that’s whine about my parental issues and carrying on like a immature child when there’s a treat over the horizon.

I saw that “but for a video game, it’s pretty ridiculous” comment as one the most narrow minded comment in this tread so far, no real offensive. If it’s satisfying in a movie then it can be satisfying in a game, which often tries to emulate movies.

The story FF12 was very clear from very beginning that Arcadia as a whole would be a source of antagonism, here’s a quote from the start of game regarding the situation of Dalmasca and futility of war against the oppressive Arcadian empire.

Would you have narrative be similar to that of Inuyasha where they have to spell out everything like a teacher to a child as if they had no respect for us. Vayne may not have much going on for him like Matsuno's other villains, but I fond him acceptable and well-crafted enough to enjoy his short appearance unlike Seifer, Ultimecia, and Seymour. After he deals with his father and the senate his presence takes a sudden turn and gives the characters and the citizens of Dalmasca a sense of urgency because of his belief in “might makes right” philosophy.


This game gave characters clear reasons for doing what did.

I've seen it said to death, but FFXII isn't a game that spells it all out to you. And it isn't obligated to, it isn't a movie. It isn't a book. It isn't a comic book. It isn't a radio drama. It's a video game. Yes, Role Playing Games of this variety tend to have stories, but a lot of times I feel as if I'm reading comments about games where players have let their love of story cloud the overall fact that sometimes a game is lacking in something. The Lunar or Lufia titles sort of baffle me in this regard, even though I know there are quite a few fans on this board of them... but that's where I'm coming from, anyway.

I saw plenty of subtle reasons to care about the characters. What was Vaan doing traveling with a bunch of people entangled in events that were only related to him because of his citizenship? Would Ashe succumb to making decisions of lesser morales, justifying them as "for the greater good?" Would Basch's loyalty endure? Would it ever be in question? There were a lot of things established, and it just felt like any other unconventional Matsuno work. I wouldn't go around calling it brilliant, but a lot of complaints against it just sound like people saying "Spell it out to me." As already pointed out.

Underwhelming...I played the demo and I didn't like it and I can't say I care at all for the aesthetics of the game. Reading impressions from just about everyone indicates this game features most of the things I don't like about RPG's (weak characters, hit-or-miss gimmick battle system...gambits sound absolutely terrible) on top of that, so a nay for me.

I understand, Rotor. I'm of the opinion that a game doesn't have to have a story to be successful - after all, we don't need a reason for Pac-man, some kind of food-deprived hockey puck, to be running from multicolored ghosts in a maze located in some dark and infinite limbo. The game stood the test of time because it had simple yet solid gameplay and widespread appeal. A game should be just that: a game. One with rules and programming that make it a solid, understandable, and enjoyable experience to anyone who picks it up. RPGs, though normally outside this boundary, are not necessarily excluded.

*However*, I also stand behind games that have good stories, and are able to give us an interesting plot in addition to gameplay. I'm sure you do too, 'cause everyone loves a good story (and why not have the whole package) but I think we can agree that it's not the end-all, be-all factor for a game, RPGs included. If a game were all about story, it would be a novel, right? In FFXII's case, I think Square was purposely trying to inject some brevity into the series' scripts, if only because they'd gotten so many mixed reviews for projects like FFX. It could have also had something to do with its many delays, like Dark Nation pointed out. While the lack of a strong narrative wasn't inherently bad, the biggest issue I had with it personally was the lack of comradere between the main characters. There has to be a sort of chemistry between the main protagonists for me to really get into it, with each one's strengths playing off another's weaknesses. I know there were reasons to care for the characters individually, like Vaan being an overall lost and uncertain young guy caught up in this flow he has no power against, and I appreciate that Square and Matsuno gave us a main character who wasn't just overly apathetic. It's actually been a year since I've played it, so sorry if I'm totally off-base with the characters here, I just can't remember too many instances where they functioned well as a true team dynamic, and I think that's a reason some people dislike the story as a whole (fair or unfair as it may be).

You didn't like Balthier's mentoring of Vaan? Or Vaan's sort of initial unease around the royalty and Basch? The party was generally together due to actual convenience of common interest, and their relationships generally all stuck that way. Which I found quite refreshing. Again, it's not a contemporary character driven story, though I understand where you're coming from. As do I understand where others are coming from. I wish I didn't feel like some guy defending, oh say, Chrono Cross, in this regard.

That's some pretty absurd thinking. Why would I ever want to have to do something? Is a game suddenly something I have to participate in? As if I have to play it somehow? WTF!? When did this shit start?

Heh, If you could defend Chrono Cross from a character standpoint, I'd be pretty impressed. It's a mystery to me why so many party members were included.

Don't feel like you're being outnumbered here, there are lots of people who share your opinion on the game (the entire nation of Japan, for starters). I like it too, I really do, and I played the heck out of it back when it came out, but my biggest hang-up was the characters and, in particular, there roles in the story. Penelo was confusing to me because I could never quite understand her role in the group, or her place in the story. Vaan's friend, sure, but why her specifically? Ashe was a fantastic design, a young lady who was strong and determined but not your stereotypical tough girl - but I could never quite figure out why she kept taking center stage with the story. If Vaan were the true protagonist, why was he in the background of so many important scenes? If he was the proverbial "you" in this game, why was his contribution so little? I hope you understand what I'm getting at - I don't *hate* the characters, I just don't fully understand some of them.

I mean the feeling of the argument, I don't like self-affirmation of belief. I enjoy being challenged, it's a good thing. I hate Chrono Cross and this just feels like the shoe being on the other foot as far as discussions go. I see interest has died down, though.

Vaan is a cipher as far as being the "main character", the game slowly begins to constantly throw it in your face that Balthier is the "leading man." See, this obtuse "on-paper" explanation just doesn't really seem to cut it to me, but that's the best I can muster.

I never even saw Balthier as a "leading man". The entire game was largely about each individual, and was one of the first Final Fantasy's without a clear idea of, "this is who we should focus on". It's harder to relate to someone when everyone is given screen time.

*waves around Final Fantasy VI*

*waves around Final Fantasy I*

A> FF VI has a fairly obvious main character.

B> FFI doesn't count because it has a story comparable to Super Mario Bros.

:-)

FF VI most decidedly does not have a main character. Terra, if you want to argue her as the main character, becomes largely secondary in the latter half of the game. You can actually beat it without her. And Celes, who is the first character you play as in the latter half is hardly the lead character of the beginning. Locke has as much play time as any of them, and yet, he's not the main character.

Get real, sir.

You never specified anything like "good, well-told story" much less any criteria at all. This is all well and good, but so far I know that Deni is the "TOASTY!" guy for FFVI. When it pops up, guess who it is?

My point about Balthier was that if you absolutely needed to point out a main character, he was it. He has the most relevance to being involved in most events, rather than the ciphers that are Vaan and Ashe. Especially given his relationship with Cid in the game.

I assume when you say "second half" of the game, you specifically mean the destroyed world. I'm just assuming, though, since the ruined world happens well past the half way marker. Regardless, Terra has a very significant role then as well.

I think her over all importance to the story was pretty much cemented with her at the bow of the airship in the end.

"Play time" is hardly an indicator as to who the main character of a plot is. Yuna is largely the central figure in FFX, but most of the game is played through Tidus.

Can't really argue with that.

If Yuna is a main character, then so is Balthier. And that is Tidus' story, by the by. They spell that out for you. You know, repeatedly. And VI, sir, has a less single character involved story than XII does. XII is seen from a single person's perspective, unlike VI. No one is saying Terra isn't important to the story, I'm saying she's not the main character. And she's not. Because it's a cast based game. And she doesn't have any more significance to the second half of the game than any of the other characters not named GoGo or Umaro. You keep arguing your lost point, though. You're doing fine.

If you absolutely had to pick a main character for FFVI, then it would be Terra. As far as I remember, someone care to refresh me on the ending if you don't get her back from Moblitz? If we split the game into acts, it eventually be the Terra and Celes show.

At that, XII is seen from one person's perspective, Deni? That's funny, I could have sworn we saw several scenes from beyond the eye sight of Vaan. Unless Vaan was magically there to see the things, say, Gabranth might have been doing at one point or another. There are plenty of games that have more than just the perspective of one character.

Yes, there are cutaway cinematic scenes, but mind explaining to me the large chunks in XII where we play as someone other than Vaan? Because I must have missed that. You know, unlike in VI, where for huge chunks of the story, Terra isn't even in your party.

And no, it wouldn't. The first half you can call the Terra act, definitely. The second half though, you start as Celes, and then it very quickly becomes the everyone-else act. She's not a forced lead character for the secondary story beyond getting a few early recruits, then she promptly fades away into a secondary character.

Vaan is your player avatar, but you hardly see every cutscene from his vantage point. You're comparing inherent gameplay differences for an argument rooted and originated on story, where Vaan does indeed slip into the background for a minute or two. That's pretty rich.

And my point has never been that XII has a hard, fixed main character. My point was that it's not the first game to have a cast/story based rather than the stationary lead character, a la FF VII. XII is much more fluid than a lot of games, but it's hardly an innovator of it. I said VI is less driven by a single character than XII is. And I hold that this is true. I never said it was a rigid main character. But keep arguing apples and oranges, Watts junior. It's working for you.

Large chunks of the story played without her? The moment you lose her the party goes about finding her and opening up pages of her back story. Then Kefka creates the World of Ruin and then you have to deal with Terra reconciling with everything that's happened.

But your estimate, Chrono's involvement in Chrono Trigger is highly played down because you can choose to end the game without him. But we aren't gonna go that far. Are we?

I don't think we should intermingle gameplay mechanics with story.

And see, I disagree with you because other than the last 3/4s of the end game, FFVI is directly connected to Terra. There's only a very small percentage of the game that doesn't focus on Terra.

Where was I in this VI discussion? When did I say I disagree and just what line of thought are you on to go off accusing me of something as ridiculous as arguing "apples and oranges." I've only tried to address things about XII you felt something about and I felt I had knowledge to the contrary, or things you didn't quite understand.

Aaaanyway, you say that FFVI is less driven by one character than XII is and you NEVER stated your criteria. On what level, Deni? Because it certainly isn't a narrative one, and that's where you started as far as I've read up to this very point. That kind of copout isn't exactly fair to anyone invested in this.

Edit: I'm getting the feeling what Deni said wasn't directed at me... please use quotes if this is the case? For us dumb people?

My god, the story unfolds with a character as a catalyst. Clearly, they must be the protagonist. Nevermind the heaps and heaps of secondary characters who have the exact same effect. I mean, it's not like we spend a large portion of the game unlocking Locke's involvement, or Celes. Clearly XII has invented this literary trope and we must all bow to the genius that was XII. Fuck off. You're trying to turn this into "FF VI is A" argument when it's a long held concept that it is a cast based story, rather than having a single protagonist. Your argument that XII is this vaulting cast based game that nothing else has ever tried before is stupid. You want to like this piece of shit? Go for it. But don't act like it walks on water and created everything cool when it's pretty packaging of things we've seen time and time again.

Jesus Christ, I can't tell who you're talking to, man.

The other guy.

Appreciate it. Guess I'll watch you all work this out.

Fireworks are done. The one thing I've noticed about django from his posting is that he's not worth the effort of logic. It's sort of like trying to explain complex social theory to a dog.

So, this is where we're at? Ad hominem? Well then, let's keep things in plain English, then.

- Final Fantasy VI's story is spurred by, and ends with, Terra. 85% of the entire game is directly related to her. Side quests be damned. If your overall enjoyment of the game is heightened because of the short vignettes spread throughout the narrative, then I'm sure Square would be happy. That doesn't change the fact that the entire story starts, concerns, and ends with Terra.

Just because they aren't the main focus of the story doesn't mean they lack importance.

Huh. I don't remember making that argument.

Not really, no. I said A because I believe B, because of C. You're more than welcome to respond without hyperbole or creating red herrings.

Huh. I don't remember making that argument.

Huh. I don't remember making that argument. And for your information, I didn't even beat FFXII.

To reiterate, I think you need to separate game play from story. Like I said above, you're welcome to offer a counter point. So far, you've just invested in ad hominem, strawman accusations, and hyperbole.

So you are saying Deni is merely stating his opinion of how the plot unfolds in FFVI? Idiot.

Ok, I'm curious whether you've actually played this game or not. Although I'm not nearly the fanboy Deni is, I've played through this game multiple times and there are a number of gameplay and plot elements that I am very aware of. First of all, you are not stuck with a certain avatar you control throughout the game. i.e. Cloud in FF VII, Squall in FF VIII, Zidane in FF IX, Tidus in FF X, etc. (THIS ISN'T TO SAY THAT YOU HAVE MOMENTS IN OTHER FINAL FANTASY GAMES WHERE THE MAIN CHARACTER IS NOT IN YOUR PARTY. THIS IS TO SAY THAT YOU AREN'T FORCED TO USE TERRA WHEN SHE IS IN YOUR PARTY. THANK YOU.) In FF VI, you choose who leads your party, except at certain points in the story. (e.g. when you control Celes at the beginning of the world of ruin) This is the biggest difference between those games and FF VI. While all those games have central characters, the story is told from the perspective of the character / avatar you control. The difference is that FF VI has a much broader angle in which the player has a much more godlike perspective, watching the events unfold and having a certain hand in how they happen. This is a fundamental difference in gameplay that cannot be denied and is not merely a matter of opinion.

Secondly, the argument can be made that there are at least 5 or 6 main leads in this game. Locke, Celes, Sabin, Cyan, and Edgar are as important and integral to the story as Terra is. In fact, as Deni points out, the second half of the game is more about these characters than it is about Terra.

Overall, the director really attempted to create a balanced story which focused on many different characters, explaining all their different backgrounds. We end up with the three way story split in the world of balance where you get to experience some more intimate facets of the character's personalities, as well as learning about their backgrounds more. To say that Terra is unimportant to the story is a bad argument to make, but to say that FF VI should be renamed FF - Terra's Story is also shortsighted. As Deni has stated, she is largely unimportant in the World of Ruin, which focuses more heavily on Celes and the other characters. Terra has one important moment with the orphans, but you can technically play through the entire second half of the game without her in your party, not to mention much of the first half of the game as well. If we assume she is the sole lead (which she is not) this is something you cannot do with the leads in FF VII, VIII, IX, X.
(I mean come on, you cannot neglect how important the opera scene is in FF III, and it centers primarily around Celes, not Terra.)

In addition, each locale one visits tells something about the characters who have something related to the locale. e.g. The Village of the Magi and Shadow, The Imperial City and Celes, The Esper City and Terra.

Your statement about the sidequests being irrelevant is extremely shortsighted. I mean one might be able to buy it, except that if we look at other FF games, the sidequests disproportionately involve the lead or focus primarily on him. (The Zack and Squall sidequest in FF VII, for instance)
In comparison, the sidequests in FF VI focus disproportionately on characters aside from Terra, serving to explain their individual stories / struggles in depth. It provided a sense of completeness that I haven't seen in many games before or since.

From reading the posts in this thread, I get the impression that people arguing that Vaan is not a central character, even if he is the avatar of the player. In a sense, the story of FF XII is told from a second perspective. Although I cannot comment, having not played this game, I can conclude that this is different from FF VI and is very unique.

However:

This is a very accurate description of the plot from FF VI but it does not accurately describe the plot from FF XII the way others, such as Deni and Rotorblade, have described it to me.

For lack of quoting the entire thread, I can say that most of the problem here is due to lack of reading comprehension / intelligence on the part of Django!. (why he has an ! at the end of his name, we'll never know)

Django, to say Deni's plot synopsis is an 'ad hominem' argument shows an extreme deficit in cognition and reading comprehension on your part. Those who are not at war with the English language are much more capable of understanding the individual roles characters play in the simple plot of a videogame. If you manage to pass University English, I will credit it as an act of God and Denicalis will be forced to renounce his stance as an agnostic.

Jesus Christ.

Alright. Here we go.

Well gollee, there Cletus, I think you're right! You don't control Terra throughout the entire game! That's a definite, undeniable, fact right there! Nope, no denying that. Except, that's not what I said. Doesn't matter if she's in your party or whether or not you control her. Again, I present the notion that you distinguish gameplay from narrative.

When is Terra away from your party the most? When she goes crazy. What do you do while she's away? You pretty much spend the next couple of hours getting her back, and dissecting her back story and that of the Espers. Then when you find her, you have the option to convince her to rejoin your party (this is roughly the beginning of the end game). Much of the plot is directly about her and her backstory and the character. You see, even though you can't see her, her character is still integral to the plot and influences the pacing.

Except that Loke, Celes, Sabin, Cyan, and Edgar's interesting histories are largely served up via side story and flash backs. I also reiterate that simply because other characters are interesting doesn't change the focus of the story. They may be important characters to the overall story, but they are not the main focus. Terra is.

I didn't say that. But whatever.

You two act like because I don't share your opinion I some how find FFVI to be a bad game, when that's hardly the case at all.

Irrelevant? I said the exact opposite of that. Specifically my post directly above yours where I typed out and entered, "Just because they aren't the main focus of the story doesn't mean they lack importance."

I completely agree with you. One of the reasons I disliked FFVIII so much was because of the unending emphasis on Squall and the seemingly short length of most characters backstory. You're right in what makes FFVI so good is that most of the characters have a very solid history behind them.

That's fine, they're more than welcome to form their own opinion on a game. Unlike Deni, I'm not going to slander someone over it.

His plot synopsis (if you can call that single paragraph or so of text a "synopsis") wasn't ad hominem, it was him making up arguments that I didn't present and calling me an idiot.

By Deni's and your own rationalization, Chrono's importance to the Chrono Trigger story is severely reduced because you can play the game without him (much more than FFVI and Terra), you can beat the game without him, and because you can play without him. But I don't think anyone's gonna make that argument, are they? No, because it doesn't make sense to correlate game play and narrative.

If you two are so obsessed with reading comprehension, then why are both of you intent on pinning things on me that I didn't say? Hell, I've quoted three arguments in this post that were credited to me, but were not presented by me. You yourself made a misguided attempt to create a strawman in your very own reply.

Reading comprehension indeed.



EDIT

And just as a little mental exercise, the reason I don't think FFXII has a single main character is because, at least what I did play myself (which I would guess to be around 60% - 70%), most of the plot of the game was forwarded by interpretations of various characters that join with you along the way. Balthier's interpretations may have become more important, and more centered, as the story went along, but IMHO, much of the game I played tended to emphasis Basch's character over everyone elses.

First of all, you will notice that I dealt with gameplay and narrative in separate paragraphs in my little post above. If that isn't enough of a clue that I can comprehend the difference, I don't know what is. Again, if you knew how to read I wouldn't have to explain something so simple.

I'm glad you can recollect the major elements of Terra's story. Shame you can't remember the role of all the other, equally important characters. The point wasn't that Terra wasn't an important plot element in the game. The point is that the other characters are not secondary, but are equally important. Hence, the NARRATIVE in FF VI is cast driven.

So the opera house is side story? The village of the Magi is a side story? Figaro Castle is a side story? The Veldt, Doma Castle, The Phantom Forest, The Imperial Capital are all Side Stories? Almost the entirety of the world of ruin is a side story? The list goes on. How do you personally determine what a side story is? Oh wait, you're only saying this to try to back up your incorrect assertion that Terra is THE main character of FF VI, not a main character in the game. You're basically trying to tell me that the majority of FF VI is all side story and that Terra is what is important. I guess you can focus on about 30% of the narrative and neglect the rest, if you'd like. Better yet, why not just say Kefka is the main character because he also gets a hell of a lot of airplay as far as story telling is concerned, especially in the first half of the game.

It has nothing to do with how good or bad a game is. It is all about the roles different characters play.


No no no. You are saying that Terra is the main focus of the plot in FF VI. Hence FF - Terra's story. I'm arguing it is not.


Hence Cast driven, not character driven.


WOAH, WAIT WAIT.

You said that FF XII was the first game that was cast driven, not character driven. Deni said that FF VI is cast driven and you are trying to make a claim that Terra is the central character.

You seemed to have missed this post. I suggest you read it before going on about more of this BS. Oh right, you did respond. You tried to rationalize your standpoint with a pile of logical BS which doesn't relate whatsoever to the issue at hand. You didn't even bother to define your terms.

Wait, what's this about strawmen? How ironic.

Indeed. You've sure done your fair share of argumentative BS, namely creating rabbit trails. You cannot deny that gameplay does affect story telling, something which is called perspective. The fact that you aren't obligated to have Terra as the avatar through which you experience the gameplay does affect how the story is told, because you don't feel as though you are experiencing a story through Terra's eyes. The gameplay reflects the intention of the game designer, that Terra is NOT the central focus of the game. Reading Comprehension. So, while this is important, it is somewhat besides the point.

For the sake of limiting deliberation over pointless details, The argument is as follows: you are saying that the plot of FF VI is focused around a single character, namely Terra. All the other characters, irregardless of how important they are and now much coverage they get, are secondary, or side story. Terra is the central plot element, or character, because she is a catalyst that drives the plot forward at several key points in the game. Like Deni stated earlier, because she is a catalyst, you assume that by extension, she must be the key protagonist. FF VI is about Terra.

The counterargument is as follows: Deni, myself, and other reasonable, literate individuals, are saying that other elements of the plot (including other characters) are large enough, that when removed, the story would be fundamentally changed. You would have to excise about 70 to 80% of the story if you were to to focus on Terra's role. Other characters, such as Celes and Locke are equally important. The game is bigger than Terra, a fact any reasonable individual cannot deny. This is a cast driven story. As an addendum to this, I am saying the gameplay reflects the intention of the director i.e. that this story isn't about one individual character, even if she is a catalyst that drives the story forward.
In short, we do not believe that Terra is the key protagonist just because she is a catalyst. FF VI is about the quest of several brave individuals trying to save the world.

Oh! Thanks for making this thread active guys, I only just now noticed the bizarre spelling in the thread title. Underwheiming indeed! Don't worry, I'll fix it. :cmb:

It's grand that the game gives you the option, but you can't really play without your characters somewhat on auto. It's not impossible, but the leveling system was designed with the speed of the gambit system in mind. Basically, if you aren't trekking across the map, north to south, south to further north again, and killing everything you see in the process, you -are- going to be under leveled in this game. By heavy use of the gambit system, the game is still around a 70 hour one for a lot of people at an average. I cannot imagine the sheer tedium of a game that requires this much grinding when mostly choosing every option yourself.

I hold FFXII and many of its aesthetic aspects in high regard when put alongside other games in the series, that includes the story. It absolutely had problems with pacing and depth, but the localization and general themes were well executed to a level that makes most games in the series, or most jrpgs all together, look childish. Not blazingly original overall, but not entirely common for the medium.

I think the game is judged for its faults among rpg fans, they just tend to over exaggerate. I'll say that if the game mechanics featured were in a different game world not so wonderful, I would have never finished it. 6 out of 10. Seems about fair.

Again, here you are remarking about "reading comprehension" and, again, you've recklessly glossed over my posts and accused me of saying something that I didn't.

I didn't bring up Final Fantasy VI. Your buddy did. I said, and I'll quote it here for you, "I never even saw Balthier as a "leading man". The entire game was largely about each individual, and was one of the first Final Fantasy's without a clear idea of, "this is who we should focus on". It's harder to relate to someone when everyone is given screen time."

Your cohort brought up FFVI, and I meekly replied, "FF VI has a fairly obvious main character. ;-)" It pretty much snowballed from there, since, obviously, the internet's obligated to feel about Final Fantasy VI the same way as you two rays of sunshine. I didn't say anything about "cast driven" or "character driven". Again, just because they aren't the main character doesn't mean they aren't relevant.

I was right in saying that FFXII was one of the first games where it wasn't clear who moved the story along. Way more key points in the plot are furthered by the entire cast, compared to FFVI, in which most of the story was specifically about her.

Then I started thinking. I thought maybe you guys didn't know what "protagonist" means, so I figured I'd look it up for you. Lo and behold, in a rare instance of fortune I discovered the general Internet Wisdom actually agrees with me.

I don't normally recommend Wiki-ing something, but I figured I would and, jeez... that really worked out in my favor, didn't it?

There's no point in arguing with you two about it anymore. You can refer all further responses to the Wiki article. Regardless of what I type out, you're just gonna make something up and respond to that. Enjoy. Let's pretend that I said something about your mom.

Man, this is turning into an ugly intarweb discussion.

I would have something to say if I didn't get owned so badly earlier. :(

From where I'm standing, I'm not missing out on much.

Anyway, back on topic with the thread. I have yet to play Final Fantasy XII. Honestly, I have become so disenchanted with Square-Enix that I don't really care to play their games anymore. They've really gone downhill since the Playstation days and they've tried to make money more off of the names of their franchises than based on developing quality software. The couple of releases for GC were abysmal at best, and I've not been particularly impressed with any of their latest games that haven't been ports of older software. For a company that used to be one of my favorite third party developers, it is pathetic that I can only view them with jaded skepticism, something that, for me, really started with FF X-2 and the release of FF Chrystal Chronicles on the GC.

Until I play FF XII, I can't say for sure whether or not I will like it, but I am definitely prepared to be underwhelmed or 'underweared', whatever that means.

Well I was at Walmart yesterday and I saw in the $20 and under section (Red Labeled PS2 Games, Game Boy Advance Games, etc.,) they had Final Fantasy XII, so if you do decide to pick it up, it shouldn't be that much, when WALMART is selling it at $20, its bound to be even cheaper elsewhere.

Also: FINAL FANTASY 6: SERIOUS BUSINESS

Ya, and it probably isn't all that much for a PS2. Maybe I could just borrow Skills' machine, since I bet he hardly uses it anymore. Seriously though, is the game worth dropping about $90 on a console and $20 on a game for?

QFT. Don't be maligning the greatest game ever released lololol.

I didn't think the game was that bad. Sure, it had some issues with the story/characters and pacing but I just couldn't help but love the world of Ivalice. I haven't really finished it yet (cause my friend came and took back his PS2 not so long ago), but the 50 hours I spent were not badly spent (I liked the MMORPGesque feel it had). I can say I liked it more than FFX, because I thought FFX felt very linear and cheesy (I just know someone's gonna kick my ass for this statement), but that's probably the English translation (VA :tpg:) to blame.

Anyone looking for something similar like that should give Tales of Legendia a shot. It's nothing amazing on the gameplay end, but the story gets INSANELY in depth on the characters when you play the FULL game. Just wanted to chime that in real quick. :)

I was so excited about the new battle system that the story problems didn´t really bother me so much. When FF12 came out I hated seperate battle screens and all those wasted minutes of loading and waiting in games with frequent random encounters.

I´d like to test the impact of the Zodiac Job System in the new version, but I need every free hour for P3 - with a new job system it´s unlikely it supports old save games.