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"Rap Isn't Music"
I have to admit that lately I've been listening to a lot of Saul Williams, and after repeated hearings of "Grippo," it got me thinking. Is it racist to not consider rap music?
There's definitely a racial component to how many people consume cultural products. As awful as heavy metal is (as much as I enjoy it), I don't know of many whites who will claim that it isn't music. I also for the life of me can't think of any blacks who perform heavy metal. We're clearly conditioned to accept certain packages of cultural goods divided across race. Even when whites (I'm not saying this is all whites I'm generalizing here) do listen to rap, they gravitate towards white artists. Eminem was certainly more popular among whites than Dr. Dre ever was, but he'd likely be nothing without Dre's help. This attitude is also prevalent blacks, who will claim that white artists are stealing "their music." Elvis, for instance catches a lot of flak for ripping off black artists and the southern blues tradition. Yet if Elvis hadn't helped popularize "black music" American culture wouldn't have developed the way it did. So is it racist to claim that rap isn't music? Aren't we holding ourselves back culturally by dividing artistic product across racial boundaries? |
I don't think it would be racist to claim that rap isn't "music", but if someone were to say it wasn't any kind of valid art form I'd probably draw a line.
I'm kind of in line with Dizzy Gillespie when it comes to music. He said, "I'm not interested in music, I'm interested in sounds." Music is whatever you want to listen to. |
Too many people bash rap because all they talk about is "I smoke weed", "My pops is a crack addict",etc. In the Rap game, and I quote from Alchemist, a beat is the first step into making music not just the lyrics cause that can easily be done by any lyricist in the business. Today, no one really likes to listen to the shit now because they repeat the same shit like sex and shit (not that it's a bad thing but the ladies love it so that's a A+ from me ;p) Rap right now isn't that great anyway. The lyrics are garbage, the same surviving rappers are trying to keep it alive such as saigon, nas, jay-z and any other underground rapper besides the legends.
I know a few friends who are white and hispanic (such as myself) and we love to listen to any kind of music that offers a great beat to the ears (for those who are still clueless, Beat = bgm/instrumental/). Most of them listen to that overrated Reggaeton which died a year ago from 2k5-2k6. Obviously if Rappers talk about sucking and fucking, we would all lose interest. Rock was and still is in the same situation. All we have is a shitload of myspace singers who "make it" into the business, god bless them. However, they still suck. They're all in it for the money. And we money accumalates, the same bullshit lyrics/ emo lifestyle lyrics sell more than creative lines. That's what I believe and say to people who don't appreciate rap. It isn't really racism. hope i didn't stray away far from topic =/ In short , It's not for everyone. But. there are a few people who are racists when it comes to hating on rap. |
heh... I'm pretty sure Reggaeton isn't music. (It's more like a brain killer sound wave)
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Anyway, to touch on Brady's original question. I'm sure on some level it's a racial issue, though I'd be loathe to say the large majority of people who comment "Rap? More like CRap" and then smugly cross their arms and smirk like a prat are racists. I think they're just pop-culture parrots and don't really have a grasp of what they're trying to elucidate. As an upper middle-class white kid, I didn't come into contact with rap growing up (also born before the boom) and as such, I didn't really get heavy into rap. My education on the genre came later, in my early teens. Gave me a lot of respect for people like Mos Def, Jay Z, RUN DMC etc. Do I like rap? Not especially. Not the majority of the modern stuff, anyway. However, is it any less musical than metal? Nope, not really. So I guess it's only fair to argue it's a cultural (read: often racial) motivation. |
I don't consider myself racist when I say that rap is not music. Although rap consists of mostly black artists... I don't think white rappers creations are music either.
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@ denacalis : Unfortunately, there are alot of racist people who complain about it. What I mention is something that leans towards his question. Like that one little meeting with Cam'ron XD. Anyway, I felt I'd add a little something to the topic cause not many hispanics/white people understand their style of music. =/ |
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About halfway through this video they pretty completely explain how rap is music, just to get that out of the way. Basically, you have to consider the delivery of the lyrics as a type of percussion instrument. |
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God Forbid. Suffocation. There's two so far. Sure the proportion of blacks to whites in metal is great, but they're there. I think rap is music. Maybe not all songs contain all the elements but there are songs that contain a musicial melody, even if it is sampled and there are often choruses, regardless how bad, have a melody and follow a rhythm. I think it's entirely stupid to define genres by a skin color. Rap is rap. It won't better or worse if a black guy, white guy, yellow guy, green, purple or whatever raps. It will be dependant on his skill and talent. Same thing for any musical genre out there. |
Well, there are some rap artists that I could consider being music, I can't say I'm very knowledgeable about the genre, but I think Outkast has some pretty catchy songs. And there are some japanese hip-hop bands that are pretty funky too. Then we have Rage against the machine, but I guess in a sense that is rap metal. And yeah there are some Swedish rap artists that are kinda good. I could have missed someone else cause I'm just not that very fond of the genre.
But other than that, I'd say most of the rap I've heard, especially modern rap, is very much indeed crap. In many cases it's just some crappy beat that anyone could create with a good computer program, a product enveloped in a casing of sex, drugs, gangsta life and overall bad lyrics/performance. It's just about the money nowadays, as it is with a lot of mainstream music. And I totally despise that. Of course, there are always exceptions, as I could totally respect many of the earlier rappers as it wasn't just about money and putting up some gangsta image. I wouldn't go as far as to say that rap is "black music". Even though black rap artists may be more common, rap is rap. In the beginning jazz and blues was black music. Nowadays you can see both black and white artists in the genres. |
I don't give a shit if you think "the niggers are just slapping drums and flashing bling," this is about the attitude which states that rap isn't music.
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Well sorry then for being a bit off topic :tpg:
But yeah, I guess what you say is true to an extent. I mean, I guess a lot of people really think this way, even though they don't know about it themselves. I guess this is most apparent among mainstream music likers, where it's a lot about the image artist/bands have and not so much about the music itself because in many cases they all sound the same. I find that the more you go into the more "musical" genres it doesn't matter anymore because it's about the music, while in mainstream music it's in many cases the image the artists create that people go after. So I guess a white racist wouldn't listen to rap because it's "nigga music" like many people would say. So I'd say that those who think this way surely are holding back artists products because of their own racist perspective on things. I think it's stupid, but people can be blind to this matter if they want to, they're the ones losing out on it after all. In many cases I think some people don't like rap or heavy metal because some people generally say it's crap and automatically they think the same even though they haven't given it a chance themselves. Common human behavior. |
Doesn't even matter because Rap is dead. It was good..at one point, atleast to me. Until posers started flooding it with crap. If people dont see it as music, I don't really blame them.
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There is no means for classification which states 'music MUST be this or that' in order to be called music. Is rap a form of music? Yes.
Do I like rap? No, but that's only because it has become more about the nature of materialism than the ideal of music itself. However, it is still music just as much as anything else can still be called music. Is it racist not to consider rap as a form of music? Probably not racist, but definitely ignorant. |
Pretty simple if you ask me. Two white guys listen to the same rap track.
Guy 1: This is total garbage. Guy 2: This is why I hate niggers. Either would be perfectly comfortable stating rap isn't music. Obviously, #2's dislike of rap is racially charged. But what's being discussed here is whether or not guy 1 is being so unintentionally? No, he's not. As long as dislike of rap isn't fueled by a deeper rooted hate. If he was pushing it as factual by technical definition, his invalidation would be completely wrong and, yes, ignorant, but not necessarily racial. However, stating it in the casual sense, rap isn't music being his opinion that it has no merit at all to him, as long as his reasoning is due to his tastes and not that it's colored people's music, I'd think the guy makes the grade. Racist to only listen to white rap artists? Situationally, there might be an argument for that, but because of the genre, I'd say it generally isn't. Lyrical style and delivery is visibly influenced by background in rap than in many genres. It only makes sense what relates better to who is going to be about race at times. |
I think no one can really say Rap isn't music but that doesn't mean it's good music. I like very little rap music, I hate the rest of it.
As for the topic does saying rap isn't music make you racist? No, because that's like saying if you hate a specific black person then you're racist. That's not how it works, while that specific black person might claim your racist since you hate them, they'd be wrong. Honestly I know several black people that hate rap music more then just about any white person, so if hating rap makes you racist that would mean they're racist against themselves? |
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Rap is music, it's just that the way the lyrics are spoken doesn't follow the melody of the instruments. |
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If a white person claims that rap isn't music, it may not necessarily racist, but I think that more often than not it's motivated by the implication that the commentator is expected not to like rap either because of his race or class identity. |
Great, now it's not enough that we have latent/closet racists, casual racists, institutionalized racists, we now have latent-music-bias-racists!
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/956...lracismwe0.jpg |
I do get your point clearer now. It's a lose/lose situation. Defy convention and have it seen as a race betrayal. Go with it and be seen as a stereotype.
When it doesn't seem to be an obsession upon the person, shun or unconditionally love rap, I don't think an eye is batted about this issue. I think it's perfectly common and accepted currently towards American culture to give rap its proper due. The places I frequent in my town are largely a white crowd but the jukebox is playing black artist, rap or r&b, a majority of the time. Popular music trends seem to be smiling on rap as well. Though wigger may have a major negative implication, you know when you see a fresh faced white kid with his pants around his knees and an oversized Rasheed Wallace jersey flashing gang signs, that's the label just about anyone applies. It's a nasty one. But, ideally, I'd like to think that categorizations like this speaks to the shallowness of the individual rather than a line that shouldn't be crossed. Everyone should be able to be cultured without judgment. But it rings hallow, absorption to an absurd point that is visibly disingenuous. The worst examples in both extremes probably cast their shadow on harmless personal opinion that are not swayed by expectations of taste by skin tone. There is a divide. It's personal acknowledgment of it that varies. Your perception of others' is as important as your own stance to quell the racial issue. Admittedly, I'm also suggesting that assuming the worst in others may not be wrong. Not citing race as a sole cause, but as a catalyst towards unevaluated dishonesty. |
It's not racist to claim rap isn't music, it's just fucking stupid.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wise people are so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell |
Mainstream rap is dogshit. I'd rather listen to someone fart into a microphone for 5 minutes than some moron yelling "SUPE-SOAK THAT HOOOOOOOOO." No other genre of so-called music not only accepts being a complete idiot but encourages it.
When rappers use the medium to actually tell a story or talk about something that matters is when rap becomes decent music. Sadly for the industry that's a very small percentage of the time these days. |
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http://www.100xr.com/100_XR/Artists/...nfold_2005.jpg http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image..._spice97pa.jpg http://membres.lycos.fr/dtomoyo/hpbi...rlotte%201.JPG Yeah, guys. Only rap encourages utter idiocy amongst its ranks. Seriously. |
And this one!
http://www.rockdetector.com/assets/r...-220-0-300.jpg |
My personal opinion is that anyone who thinks rap is music, is only living on the memory of what it used to be. Get rid of the posers, and these other lame thuggish new comers, and bring back the long gone rappers..(except the dead ones for obvious reasons..although it is sad that they are gone. I miss big punisher the most)and rap will be appealing.
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And weird noise with hot chicks counts as some form art too.
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It's all about exposure, when it comes down to it. White people aren't exposed to enough rap, black people aren't exposed to enough metal. There's nothing inherently racist about it. When you've listened to it all for long enough, you realize that hip hop can be as bad or as good as any other genre. Mainstream music in any genre is generally bad. And it is all music, even that weird crap knkwzrd just posted in the MEC. =p
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While I do think cultural background and races will heavily influence what kind of music you listen to, I don't think it applies to the "rap isn't music" argument.
I personally listen to quite a lot of black 70's music, and I'm seriously horrified at the massive amount of tracks I hear here and there performed by skilled musicians (who for the most never became famous) that some little fucker sampled, spoke shit over and got rich with. No, it doesn't take much effort sampling and editing it, breakbeats were already invented back then. Just gotta add your louder bitchass one to the original. No, it doesn't take a huge musical culture. Ever heard of Dusty Fingers and the likes ? They're compilations of 70s/80s music featuring obscure breakbeat based tracks purposely made for rappers to No, rapping isn't just "speaking over a beat". It requires certain skills and/or training. How does it even compare to mastering a musical instrument though ? "but man rappers are from the ghetto they can't learn music ..." No, shut up. Most funk, soul acts from the 70s (that rappers are pillaging) were from the ghetto and still played like gods. No, it's not all rap that is like this. Most of the successful stuff is, though. |
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Seriously, I find it bizarre that people are actually arguing that musicians have to be talented to make music. (lol niki) ZOMG RAP NO TALENT LOLZ. Spoiler:
So, rap is music even by the fairly stringent conservatory definition, rap is a valid form of artistic expression according to musical intellectuals, and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it sucks. tl:dr version: If you think rap isn't music, you're an idiot. *Stupid music joke no one will get. |
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And you can apply what I wrote earlier to a good amount of house/electronica music who pillage 70s/80s disco just as much and in the same immoral way. |
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Well, since most arguments have already been fleshed out pretty well by the people who've already posted, I'll only make a slight addendum of sorts to what Rat wrote out (well done, by the way).
I think the aspect of rap that makes the people question it's authenticity as a form of music is probably the fact that rapping in and of itself is more related to the arts of oration/rythmic declamation than it is to music. In fact, a rapper freestyling without a backbeat is probably gonna be closer in experience to that of listening to someone making a lecture, a poetry reading or a sermon(albeit a more lively one than most I've attended:p). Add a beat, and voilà! It becomes Hip-hop which, in opposition to just rap, is purely music if you remove the rapper. Of course, certain artists tend to be more borderline between signing and rapping, and in these cases I guess I consider it to lean more towards music than the preceding examples I've given. So, as the ballet or the opera, one has to be ready to adapt to a hybrid form of art if they are to appreciate rap. I for one don't care much for either of these three forms of art, as I am solely (or almost) interested in music. I'm not saying they don't have merit, just that they aren't really my bag. Now, as to wether saying rap isn't music is racist or not, I think Dr. Uzuki said it best when he said that we can only tell on a case to case basis. I consider rapping to be a form of artistic oration by itself (so not music) but I do consider the constructions these guys use to rap on music. Does that make me a racist? I sure hope not. Now, If my only argument would have been "them's niggers, they can't make music" or something along those lines, then certainly the answer would have to be yes. However, I think in most cases people who don't like hip-hop tend simply to find themselves alienated by it in being unable to relate to the experiences these guys are sharing, as Rat said in his post. |
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I feel I can clarify my thoughts on this fairly succinctly.
"Rap" is a vocal technique, not a musical genre. You're probably looking for hip-hop. And as for that, there are lots of white hip-hop artists (many of which rap about many things other than sex/drugs/drive-bys). It's not racist to say 'rap isn't music', it's just stupid, that's all. I second that quote of Dizzy Gillespie. |
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