Firearms
 

So who here at GFF takes up our American right to bear arms? If you are not an American are citizens in your country allowed to own firearms?

I'm currently in the market for a .45 pistol or something of that nature for myself and a 9mm or smaller pistol for my fiancé. If I had the extra cash laying around there are a lot of other rifles/carbines that I would love to have.

So who owns what? Rifles, shotguns, pistols, maybe all of the above?

Also if you had the money what weaponry would you love to have?

Sweden has an alot more restricted view on firearms. I won't be carrying a gun on me anytime soon, but I sure as hell will be buying one for target practice this spring. I'm a little bit of a gun-freak. Money's not a problem but I'm having a hard time deciding on which weapon to buy as I've never wielded a real pistol before.

The pistols I'm considering buying are the CZ-75B or Glock models 17C/20C.

Other than that, I wouldn't be buying anything else, since I generally prefer pistols and they're the only type of firearms I know how to operate - theoretically that is.

Furry bear arms? Polar bear arms?

I currently have a few beaut's of my own. Got a Cold .45 as my handgun of choice. I have a carry concealed license and this hummer is always under my coat pocket if I'm in public and not at a bar (illegal to carry concealed in a bar).

I have an Enfield rifle which I've used out at the farm on occasion, but it's pract near my father's by this point. Between class and work at the Jeweler Shop, I don't have time to head out and poke around the farmland for hogs and what-not.

Also own a BAR, Thompson (One with Stick Mag the other with a Drum), and an M1 Garand. I'm a WWII weapon collector of sorts =p I plan on getting an M3/Grease gun someday soon.

Shotguns aren't my thing. I've probably fired one only a handful of times in my life. I prefer accuracy as opposed to "get in the neighborhood of close."

I support the right to bear arms (and hugs! Guffaw.), but only because of the eventual zombie uprising. When it happens I'll be safe on my roof with a month's food supply, my comic book collection, and a .22 Rifle with ammo a-plenty.

Same rifle my dad was given when he was a kid, actually. I like to go out shooting, but don't have any real urge to buy any weaponry. Enough of my friends are hippie-hating gun-nuts that I've had the pleasure to fire off all kinds of guns.

I have many. The .45 is a good choice; however it is bulky. I have packed for years and only had to draw down a few times. I chose a .25 as it fits in the back pocket with no holster. This adds to a fast draw as well as comfort. Remember, NEVER pull it unless you are prepaired to use it, and shoot to kill not injure. Dead men tell no tales and you wont have to worry about getting sued. Best of luck...

If it were up to me, I'd own a revolver like a Colt Python or something along those lines, but I don't imagine myself using it, I'd probably never even buy bullets for it and just play around with it all day.

I actually have an intense fear of getting shot, which is why I'd never want a loaded gun in my hands. For some reason, when I see a picture/movie where the muzzle of a gun is pointed toward my face, I freak out :( So yeah, I definitely don't trust them or trust myself with one.

If I need to protect myself, I think I'd use a weapon like a knife or sword. Surely I can still injure myself with one, but I doubt I'd accidentally wound myself mortally with one.

I don't own a gun, or have a need for one. I don't hunt and I live in a good area. If I did have a gun it would be a 12 gage shotgun, because they are cool.

I noticed on your poll you didn't have an option for no guns. I'm and american and I have NO desire to own or be around guns at all. I've shot hand guns, and even a shotgun at my cousins house and I wasn't scared or nervous around them, but there was just never any fascination with them. Maybe it was my semi-suburbia/semi-big city upbringing, but there doesn't seem to be any point to own a gun. I'm not into hunting or gang banging so I don't think I would ever be in the situation at my own house where a gun would ever be needed. Infact I tend to stay away from people that have overwhelming interest in weapons, they tend to be a little odd in my book.

Call me crazy but it seems like they are just more trouble than their worth...

I'm currently in the process of getting my FAC and PAL, so after I get those, I don't know yet. I just want to get a pistol, something .45, probably some 1911. Just for kicks, almost literally lol.

I only know one shooting range around here, but anywho, I probably won't be buying my own firearm for a very long time.

Right now I don't actually own any 'real' firearms, meh, that's ok, ammo costs are nuts. Besides, I spend enough time with real firearms anyways and crap, instead I get the ammo paid for me, and I get paid for shooting them, so whatever lol.

I'm in Canada, and we have lots of gun laws, so I don't bother having any. If I could I'd own a Heckler and Koch g3a3, which I'd say is my favourite assault rifle, it's a brute. I would also like 2 Berreta m92f pistols, as nothing is cooler than two pistols, and I like the m92f's

I'm not crazy about guns, but you'd have to be insane not to own one these days. Too many nut jobs out there who will break into your house while you're in it - nevermind waiting until you leave for work like the old-fashioned, respectable robbers used to do back in the day - and kill your ass for a DVD player and fifty bucks.

Here's what we have. I'm not sure what it is, but it's a Smith & Wesson something. It has a clip and the hammer is the kind where you pull back on the barrel until you hear the bullet click into place.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4...drland/gun.jpg

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to use it if I needed to, and I'm really glad we have it.

Damn. That's one ugly ass pistol. But whatever works.

I'd personally be proud to own something like a 1911. I live in a pretty safe place I guess so, right now there is no nessecity.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51...eldM1911A1.jpg

I wasn't planning on putting it in the Miss Pistol USA contest. I'd only ever use it to shoot someone who tried to harm my family. Why does it need to be pretty?

Cause then you can kill in style!

Jack Bauer's dual tone P226 is just pure pimp.

It doesn't matter but wouldn't it be more satisfying to shoot a tresspasser with one of these?

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51...9107LLarge.jpg

What makes you think that same crazy ass robber wouldn't use your own gun on you? Or just shoot you before you had the chance to get to your gun? I'm just guessing that you don't walk around your house with your pistol loaded and in your back pocket.

Dude, Jack Bauer's P226 would out pimp that anyday :boxing:
http://www.schietsport.be/assets/images/P226.gif

That reminds me, I wouldn't mind having a SIG SAUER P226 either :D.

Jan, if I had the money that would be what I would get. The 1911 is a very proven and reliable design.

HAHA. No one's got any love love for a good ol' shotgun.
They can be slick looking to ya know!

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51...ovashotgun.jpg

Also, I know the guy who owns this thing.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51.../gunserbu2.jpg

The guy I go shooting with is a collector too, actually. The first time I shot the Garand I nearly pissed myself I was so happy. Haven't popped off any rounds from en Einfield yet though, or a BAR.

Or screw reliability, style and the propability of doubt while you're facing a trespassers....

...just waste the SOB with a Glock 18C fully automatic;

http://www.machineguntours.com/image...ges/g18c2l.jpg

If I were to buy a pistol, it would not be a Glock. I'd take a Berretta or Colt over glock any day of the week. Besides, there are far better machine pistols out there than Glock.

BTW style doesn't mean shit if when you go to pull the trigger and it jams.

So you're saying a high-quality pistol such as a Glock would jam? Right. I've heard that Colt pistols chambered with .45 cal are prone to jamming, though I'm not sure if this is correct.

I hear there's a fully-automatic version of a CZ-75 as well, I think it was called CZ-75D or something, anybody know if it's as reliable as it's semi-auto counterpart?

If you want a fully automatic weapon why not go with a submachine gun which is designed for that sort of abuse?

Because I'd shoot before asking questions and all I would have to say is this, "I was afraid for the life of me and my family." That way, even if he's unarmed, I was still defending my life and the life of my family. So the robber would loose a knee cap in hte process. I doubt he'd rob anther house again.

Because they're sligthly heavier and harder to conceal? I prefer pistols, besides imagine the look on the guy's face when you start firing a fully-automatic pistol. Element of surprise, uknowhwatimsayin.

I second the CZs. They are extremely well built and reliable. Not completely sure about the details of a semi-auto.

In the USA, only semi-automatic or below is allowed for a civillian. The rest are for the cops and the army.

Not true, you can own fully automatic firearms. You just have to jump through more hoops. My grandfather owns an old fully automatic .45 cal Thompson 1927. The assault rifle ban only applies to machine guns made after 1989.

Double Post:
Auto 9mm glock = heavy recoil/awful accuracy... That is like firing a MP5 with out the weight and length of the weapon to help control the recoil.

I don't know about the laws where you live but here you can't get a concealed handgun permit for full auto pistols :/

True that, but the Glock 18C is designed to be used as a backup weapon I reckon, whereas the MP5 could be used in a handful of different situations. I think it's a little extreme to compare them, but as I said - the Glock 18C was never meant to be your fully-automatic-handcarried-sniper-rifle.
Just spray and pray.

The MP5 however, is more or less an assault weapon. Also, depending on the model, the MP5 can barrage the target with about 700-800RPM. The Glock 18C however, has a cyclic rate of fire of 1100 to 1300 RPM, depending on the ammunition. So technically, removing the weight from the MP5 would still be incomparable to firing a Glock 18C.

Also, any C designated model from Glock is compensated, the barrel and slide both being ported as to decrease the recoil.

I have a 6 bullet revolver from the 1970's with bullets so old there's a decent chance they would detonate if I tried to fire them. Not only that, but the key to the box it's kept in is on a whole other floor of the house so if I ever wanted to use it against a burglar I might as well smash it against the concrete floor a few times. Such great protection, eh?

I wouldn't want to use a gun if someone broke in here anyway. Chances are the burglar has more experience with it anyway, so I might as well stick to sharp/heavy objects.

Doesn't help that automatics are illegal to own either, well, where I live.

That bottom one must kick like a bitch, what gauge is it? If its something usual for like tactial/human shooting its usually a 12 gauge, that would be a wrist breaker.

Yes I own a rifle, pistol and shotgun, they arent mine though, families but I do know a little about them just not the makers.

Rifles:
Standard .22 - Dont know the maker
SKS - Russian made assault ridle

Pistols:
.45 Smith and Wesson
.357 magnum
.44 magnum

Shotguns:
20 gauge
12 gauge
12 gauge over-under

If I could have anything, if I could hold onto it probably a Desert Eagle, or an M14, that would be sick. Or Id love a suppressed MP5 by HecklerKoch....that would be creamworthy. I would love to go squirrel hunting with it.

It fires similar ammunition faster... That means more recoil. Personally speaking if I wanted something like that a Micro Uzi would be more fitting.

In a situation where I have to shoot at someone I want to kill them (preferably in one hit), not spray the whole neighborhood up with bullets. I'd love to have on of Mag Magnum Research's .44 mag or .50 Desert Eagle.

I can see the cool factor in something like that but cool will only take you so far and isn't the cool factor that will keep you alive in a life and death situation.

Jiraiya: SKS are neat and cheap too but for about 300 more USD you can get a semi auto AK47 which is a modern assault rifle.

For Me a FN P90 / Belgien has the cake without question. slick, fast firing and easy to handle.
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5576/fnp908lc.th.jpg

and this is what i want my next one to look like
http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/2...p90l0xc.th.jpg

By the way, you must meet force with equal force. If you shot an unarmed robber, he can sue you. I don't agree with it, but that is how the law is written.

Honestly, if the situation came up where I had to fire a gun at someone, I don't think I'll be able to do it. Either that, I'll botch up and somehow end up hitting someone else unintentionally.

But I've always had a fascinations with AKs. My friend in Iraq says he picked up quite a few AK clips while on patrol. Too bad he can't bring any back to the States.

So you are the guy that walks around his house/family with a loaded gun in his back pocket and shoots anything that moves. People like you and stereotypical hicks are why people from other countries hate the US. Good job.

We all have the right to bear arms! I mean, these lumps of flesh hanging down from my shoulders can be quite a burden sometimes.

Seriously, though, I would have to say that the U.S. Constitution doesn't really allow for individual people to own guns. That being said, I feel that it should be perfectly okay for citizens to own guns. Admittedly, there would be less crime without them, but some people feel safer knowing they have a gun that, in a time of need, can allow them to defend themselves. I do not own a gun, simply because I have no need for one (and maybe because my parents wouldn't allow it). If there ever came a time where I did find it necessary, I'd get one. It's that simple.

You've got to be kidding me. So what happens when the other guy is armed? Are your arms going to protect you from a bullet? Are you the man of steel?

Citizen owner ship reduces crime, simply put; none of this bullshit I so often hear of leaving it to the professions. Don’t you ever wonder why people don’t rob homes in Texas?

NVM there is no fucking point in arguing if you have these absolutely baseless and stupid preconceived ideas...

BTW if you ever find yourself in a situation where you need a firearm you can’t just go get one. Make sure to tell the criminal to hold on while you go to the store and buy a gun. Good luck with three day waiting period!

Back to the topic!
So Mr. Acro-nym if you ever found yourself in a situation needing a pistol and convinced the stupid criminal to let you go buy one, what would be your first choice?

I'm guessing it's because people who lives in Texas are just as crazy as you are and they think they NEED a gun to be safe/cool/whatever. You act like just because of the fact that you have a gun means you wont get shot. You are your own reason on why people can't be trusted it's ridiculous.

Say your enemy is a distance away, your fucked. And plus I dont like how they look, I really think they look like toys :P If the picture is correct, 5.7 caliber, thats pretty small. I think if your enemy had body armor too you'd be screwed unless you just sprayed and hoped to god you hit him in the face or legs.

Yes the SKS is a good gun, fun to fire. A personal friend of mine has an AK-47, full auto and he usually shoots hollow points with it. I personally think AK's are peices of shit, they are poorly designed in some aspects; terribly innacurate and while they are hard to break like if you watch the barrel on full auto it like shakes and rattles off the stock so to say. Still, its fun to shoot at stuff. Plus, AK is illegal in my state, SKS isnt :)

Then I sure as hell better aim my shot correctly and kill the mother fucker.

Nah..weapons are tools for the weak.
If you can't break a tank into pieces by kickpunching it, it means you still need training!

Uh... yeah. GTFO.

Either I didn't adequately express my views or you misinterpreted what I said. The first item was a joke. Bear can be a verb that means to take up a burden. My logic about crime is that if regular citizens didn't have guns, it would much more difficult for everyday robbers, muggers, and murderers (who are often standard citizens) to commit crimes. My comment about not currently needing a firearm wasn't to say that I'd rush out to buy one if someone was attacking me. I meant that if I felt I needed protection, i.e. living in an area with a high crime rate, I would get one. This is simply not the case at this time. As to your question, I'd say a pistol would be my gun of choice.

Incorrect. Fabrique Nationale, the Belgian company which invented the P90, the FiveseveN, and the 5.7 round specifically designed it to absolutely circumvent body armor. A P90 is an excellent personal defense weapon against armored enemies.

As you can tell by the above, I'm quite the fan of firearms. The only ones I own are unfortunately quite pedestrian, a lever-action Winchester, two Remington 1100 12-gauge shotguns, and the most interesting of the bunch, a Ruger breakapart over-under shotgun. My interest, however, lies mostly in the firearms used by the world's militaries, i.e. assault rifles, machine guns and the like.

Edit: I'd like to add something: To the guy who said he'd like to own a Desert Eagle in .50AE.... No. No, you do not. That's way too much gun for any purpose except hunting very large animals, such as moose or bears. Not only that, it takes a hell of a set of wrists to fire it, and even then it has a nasty tendency to stovepipe (a condition where the gun goes barrel-up in the shooter's hands). It also frequently jams, due to the .50AE cartridge being too big to squeeze out of the ejection port at times. It's an entirely impractical weapon for shooting at people. If you're looking for a hand cannon, .44 revolvers are a much better choice.

Harmonica: Yes the .50 Desert Eagle is way over kill... but the .44 mag desert eagle while not as a .50 it is still a huge nasty hand cannon.

Jiraiya: Not all AKs are made equally and because it is such a prolific design there is a lot of less than desirable AKs. BTW have you ever used an M-16A2? Shit those things feel like they will break in your hands and they are still pretty accurate.

x86: Smartass.

andkeener: You assume a lot. You can say what ever you want, but the fact is when I am put into a situation where I am in need of a tool that can save my life, I will have it. You make it out to sound like I am some hick out shooting everything that moves, sort of makes you out to be an ignorant ass :/

People who are anti-gun and choose not own a firearm now have very few options when someone breaks into their home with a gun and has the intent to murder. I never said that you'd never get shot by owning a guy but the simple fact is this Mr. andkeener, most criminals are cowards and want an easy target. If I have a gun and am willing to use it when needed, I am no longer a easy target, no in fact I am now a very dangerous target. This is the land of the free, you can say what you will, but don't come bitching when someone you know gets raped and murdered in their own home because they had no way to defend themselves. I rely on myself, what do you rely on?

Acro-nym: Both. I was being a smart ass for most of that so try not to take me toooooo serious ;) even if I do disagree with you on a few things. Also I wanted to know what kind of pistol you would want, not that you would want a pistol :/

GarretThe Thief: The P-90 is pretty neat but the civi version of it, I believe it is called the PS-90 is butt ass ugly. They extended the barrel and give it a rather unbalanced look. There is a huge waiting list for the semi auto version of the PN-90(? I might have them backwards) besides they are expensive. I'd rather just have a SKS until the Assault weapons ban gets lifted (if it gets lifted... :()

I used to think that, too, until one day when I was home alone with my (then) 3-year-old son and my security system went off. I scooped him up and ran into my bedroom, shut and locked the door, stuffed him under the bed and grabbed the pistol and loaded it.

All of a sudden the strangest calm came over me. I was standing there about four feet away from the door so there was no way I was going to miss whoever came through it, pointing the gun at the door, and I was suddenly extremely calm and self-assured. I remember calmly thinking, "OK. I'm going to have to shoot whoever comes through that door." I stood like that for a few minutes, 100% certain that I was going to have to shoot someone and dreading it, yet not really fearing it and definitely not doubting that I would do it. The next thing I knew, the police were pulling up in my driveway. That's when I collapsed into a quivering heap of jelly.

Turns out a stick had been blown against one of our windows hard enough to cause the glass break sensor to go off, but in retrospect I'm glad it happened, because until then I never knew how I would handle a situation like that.

Rifle/Pistol.

The pistol is an old .45 Colt Commander... revolver I think. It's in a box somewhere.

The rifle I own I have no clue. It's a hunting rifle, that I inherited along with the pistol. I'm not much of a hunter, nor would I do that unless I was starving. Disney got to me at an early age.

Yeah I understand, I hear that real Russian made AK's arent too bad. And no I havent had the priviledge to personally shoot an M16-A2, I've heard good and bad things. But for everyday target shooting or hunting, I dont need anything that cant go under water 200ft and still shoot or be dropped out of a plane and be ok :P

Harmonica: I think your referring to me about the Desert Eagle. Yeah it would be a monster to shoot and I think since I've had a lot of experience with my families .44 I could shoot it a few times and get gradual experience with it. And its not like Im gonna have to be all tactical with it, it would just be for target shooting. I like to KEEP AND EAT what I kill, not blow it to hell.

I'd LOVE to have a double-barrel sawed-off shotgun! I've been saying this since I was kid. However, I don't think my fam will like the idea of me actually getting one. :(

However, if I absolutely have to get one, probably something really small and easy-to-use.

So when I was very young, my grandfather gave my my first firearm for Christmas - it was a bolt-action rifle, but I'll be damned if I remember what kind. The next year, he gave me a colt .45. Last year he died, and left me a 12 guage Beretta.

So, I've been living with firearms for pretty much my entire life. I have to say, I - and anyone else who has - have an extremely healthy respect for what they are, and what they can do. You know "guns don't kill people; people kill people?" It's absolutely true. Nobody who's been around them for their entire lives kills somebody "by mistake." When you're around a gun, you treat it like... well, like a gun. There are no mistakes.

Lady - Haha it'd probably have to be an over under, I think the style you like side by side arent made too much anymore if Im not mistaken. Or maybe its the other way around. Yeah shotguns arent too complicated anyways so you shouldnt have to worry. You should go for it, target shooting is a great stress releiver!

Totally agree with the post above, GUNS ARE NOT TOYS dont fuck around with them or else someone will get hurt/die.

My grandfather has a double barreled shotgun (12 gauge), he has fired both barrels at once before. He said it hurt like a bitch and made him stagger. He is 6'2" and at the time around 180-200lbs.

Well, it's sure an expensive piece for just plinking. Especially since it eats .50AE, which is really expensive, even moreso than other calibers. I guess if money isn't an issue it could be interesting, but it'll probably still manage to piss you off at some point. The real problem is, a semiauto with that large of a round is terribly impractical. The .44 version is indeed better, but unfortunately it's also getting rare.

When I was young our house got robbed twice so my dad went out and bought this large gauge shotgun. Double barrel, those giant shotgun bullets, it looked like the type that would blow off someone's head and I was terrified of it..

They ended up hiding it in our garage for 10 years since my brother and I were young and we uncovered it when we recently moved, it was all rusted over and I doubt it worked anymore.

Um, if you come in, busting down my door and I happen to defend my family or I. Then how am I sterotypical hick?

I am rather curious why you jump the gun(no pun intended) on that if someone threatens my household that I have no right to defend myself?

And as well, he can't sue me for injuries when he was TRESSPASSING on my land and did damages to my household by breaking and entering.

Sadly Zio they can sue you if they live... Just because they broke into your home does not justify killing them. Now should they have a gun out then you could probably say it was self defense to blow the guys brains out. If I found someone in my home and they weren't armed I'd make get on the ground at gun point and hog die them, wait for the cops to show up and if the fucking had the misfortune of twitching wrong he's dead. No one should fuck around when it comes to their safety, none of this shoot 'em in the knees bullshit.

Yes, I understand that but the thing is, I should have not to wait to see signs of a threat in order to have any self defense. I aint waiting for some guy to get the chance to shoot me. Rather or not he's armed or not, I'll be damn sure they won't get the chance to even get anything. Rather or not I shoot him or not.

Besides people do weird things when they fear for thier lives.

I had to vote "all of the above"...

I own about a dozen firearms, including rifles, shotguns, and handguns, as well as a couple of old black powder muzzle-loaders.

My favorite rifle is the Winchester Model 94. I've got 2, both in .30-30, one was a gift from my grandmother, it stays in my gunsafe most of the time, where it will be, well, safe. The other is a beat up one that was made in the 1970s, it's kinda rusty and the stock is all scratched and dinged. I take this one hunting (that way if i drop it in a creek or something I won't care because it was a crappy gun to begin with). It also sits behind my door, with some 110gr JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point) ammo that I handloaded (yes, I make my own ammo). This is one of 3 guns that I keep loaded in the house...

I also have a CHL (concealed handgun license), and own 2 handguns that I'll carry with me when I leave the house, the only execption being when I'm at school. I really wish it wasn't illegal for a CHL holder to carry in a college...

One of my "carry" pistols is a Makarov, a russian pistol that is very similar to the Walther PPK. Many consider it to be "the AK of handguns". My other pistol is a small Beretta model 950 "Jetfire", in .25ACP. Sure, it's small, but it beats throwing rocks... and it's really easy to conceal. Theres an old saying "a .25 in the hand beats a .45 in the safe"

I feel that guns and the people who own them are very "misunderstood". We aren't rednecks or hicks, just regular people who either have an interest in hunting or self defense (or both). Guns are not for everyone, and I respect that, however I don't think that you should have the right to tell me that I can't have one simply because it makes you "uncomfortable"...

As for when you should shoot someone, that depends on your location. If you're out on the streets, I'd only shoot someone if I had not other choice (like, say, running away). I see it as a last resort.

However, if someone breaks into your house, things change. You don't know why they're there, they might just want your DVD player, or they might be there to kill you and rape your wife/mom/daughter/sister. If someone breaks into my home, I have to assume that they have the worst of intentions, I cannot afford to give them the benifit of the dout. If someone breaks into my house, I will kill them without hesitation. I have 8 rounds loaded in my Makarov pistol at all times... and if I have to shoot someone in my home, the police will find them with 8 bullet holes when they come to pick up the corpse...

I know that might sound kind of crazy to some of you, but you'll understand what I'm talking about if your family is ever in danger. I'm sure Alice knows what I mean. Great story by the way Alice, I wish more moms were that protective of their kids, the world would be a better place... keep up the good work...

What's the point of sawing off the shot gun to make it shorter? Does it have a bigger blast radius?

Easier to conceal, hell of a weapon close up.

Did you forget that you said you said, "Because I'd shoot before asking questions..."? The whole 'shoot first, ask later' mentality is VERY stereotypical hick. Also, when did I say anything about breaking and entering, doing any damage to your property, or sueing anyone for any injuries?

Why do you jump to such conclusions as just because someone other than family is in your house they are threatening you or anyone in your family in any way?

EDIT - Please don't forget that my original point I was tyring to make in this thread was 'what makes you think that having a gun in the house will make you any safer', not that you can't get away with shooting someone in your own house (as if that is a good thing).

Yo David, have you ever read the provisions of the weapon ban on school property in your state?!? I don't know which state you are in but here in Oregon you are exempt from that law if you have a CHL. So unless you state has managed to pass a ban on them it is legal to care a handgun to school with a CHL. I suggest you read the law if you haven't already and don't let any of these shit head politicians/sherrifs tell you otherwise!

We have an organization OFF (Oregon Firearm Federation) that is fighting our corrupt state government from doing things that are illegal by its own laws. There might just be something like that in your state, so you might want to look into it.

OFF Website


andkeener: A firearm that is readily available in a home is a means to defend yourself against an armed intruder. What do you think happens when someone breaks into your home who is armed and has the intent to rape and murder your family, oh and guess what your family doesn't own a gun because they are "dangerous". To bad, sorry now rather than having the ability to fight back and win you have no chance what so ever. I find your logic to be stupid. Lets change the subject of your argument to armor. If I wear armor by your logic it will provide me no more safety than if I were naked. Remember andkeener a firearm is a tool, it can be used for many things but what most law abiding citizens use their firearms for is hunting and self defense. Putting restrictions on firearms only limits the private law abiding citizens from getting firearms, not the criminals. Criminals will always have the ability to get guns, never are they legal ways either.

Ok no more of this hick/firearm bashing. We are here to discuss what firearms the population of GFF owns and or wants. NOT whether or not you think gun ownership is stupid or only for hicks. So please stay on topic from now on...

My weapon of choice

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v520/Mitch/closed.jpg

No, but others said that they can sue, which is true but you can claim self defense.

And you better call most cops in the USA hicks then cause they go by that philosophy as well. If they feel threaten or you are going for a weapon some sort even if you aren't. They will shoot to disable then ask questions.

And anyone can have a shoot first, ask later... Maybe you shoudl stop sterotyping people. Either way, I'd still be willing to use a gun if I must, rather or not the guy is armed or not. Shoot to disable and disarm, if I must I will kill someone to save my own life or life of my loved ones.

Gee, I guess if I knock down a door and began to ravage through things that aren't mine, I would assume that the people inside would be terrified to the point that thier life MIGHT be endanger.

Put it this way, if you walk into a Lion's den that is full of new born lions. Rather you are a threat or not, that Lion will kill you in defense.


Yes, I know and my philosophy that a gun can help because you have a better way to defend yourself. Why should people who go breaking laws only have a gun. I know you probaly think it's stupid but either way someone is going to have a gun or some sort of weapon, rather legal or not.

My point exactly, guns are a very primal way to deal with things. If you feel it 'necessary' to have one, thats fine with me. But I don't think that is the case in many (I'd say most) parts of the country.

Do you really think that people that break into houses do it just to kill someone? As long as you/a loved one haven't done anything to provoke someone to that state (for example: shoot someone they loved), don't you think the intruder would just take what they want and leave with out harming anyone if it wasn't needed? Maybe I'm just naive in thinking people don't want to harm others unprovoked.

I'd disagree. It is a very effective way to defend you in the properly trained hands. Would you rather people "talk" more to criminals and be more sensitive to the needs of the criminals in this world, maybe try and under stand why this man is in my home with a gun pointed at my head?

You really need to read this.

You sound like a man boy just asking to be killed. You think I am going to just stand there and let some piece of shit steal what I have worked so hard to get? You're a fucking idiot to think that any man would let that happen. Yes Mr. andkeener you go head and let those who move a hand against you to do whatever they want to you. Hope you don't mind being ass raped at gun point when they find you cowering in a corner because you are to chicken shit to stand up for yourself. Good luck with that.

Double Post:
Fuck, pretty soon this is going to end up being thrown into PP at the rate it is going...

No doubt that it would not be a fun situation to be in and it may even be terrifying to see someone rumage through your belongings while you were there, but that doesnt mean you are going to die or get hurt or need to shoot the person (even if you could do it and get away with it because of 'self defence').

Double Post:
Gumby, when did I say anything about guns not being safe? When used properly they are perfectly safe. I just don't think they are needed as much as you think.

EDIT - Just a question, but does being able to shoot someone and calling people cowards on the internet make you a man?

You want a specific pistol? Hmm... well, I guess I'd have to go with a 9mm Smith & Wesson. I know there are many, but I can't really say which 9mm would be the best fit for me.

And why 9mm Acro-nym? Don't you know that 9mm is considered rather underpowered these days? It barely penetrates kevlar, but then again it depends on the type of ammo. FMJ might do the trick, but JHP's always good against soft targets.

A 9mm hollow point wouldn't do crap all to kevlar, even a fullmetal jacket wouldn't penetrate. I'm not sure on distances, but I'm pretty sure a FMJ wouldn't do it.

That's what I said, the hollow point is for soft targets. The FMJ however is - unlike the JHP - designed to remain intact, thus it's also better against armoured targets. Although if you're really looking to penetrate armor, use HV bullets.

A person who breaks into your home while you're there isn't after your stuff. If that's what he was after, he'd scope out your house and wait until you left, then break in.

I think that any rational person can safely assume that if a person invades your home while you're obviously at home, they're there to do harm to the people inside, not to steal your DVD player.

Some people are both desperate and stupid. You'd be surprised what these conditions, especially when combined, can make a person do.

Harmonica's a good example actually.
What I meant to say is that he's right! And some people are just plain stupid.

Gumby, I'm an Orygun resident as well... I live in Beaverton...

Illegal wasn't the right way to word it... The problem is that if I get caught with my handgun on college grounds, I get exspelled(spelling?). It's not really a "legal" issue, but an issue with school policy...

Reading this thread is alot of fun, because it's easy to tell who has real world gun experiance, and who learned everything they know from movies and counter-strike...

Also, I forgot to mention what guns I want in my last post... I have a pretty long list:

M1 Carbine in .30 M1 Carbine
TT33 Tokarev in 7.62X25
Colt M1911 in .38 Super
Remington 870 in 12ga
Krag in .30-40 Krag
Ruger M77 in .280 Remington
Another Makarov, I'd convert it to .32 NAA
Another Winchester Model 94, this time in .444 Marlin

There are more, but these are the ones I'm most interested in at the moment...

Edited to add:

Almost forgot the pics! First one is a pic of my 2 carry pistols, Beretta .25 on the left, Makarov 9X18 on right:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...6/IMG_0063.jpg

Second one is me with my beat-up Winchester, taken durring a hunting trip about 2 years ago:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...6/IM001624.jpg

I live in Canada, a sane and sensible country where not just any idiot can arm himself for any old reason.

You forgot to add the options "Nothing" and "Firearms are illegal/uncommon in my country". Oops. So I won't vote for now. Oh, it'd be nice to add "Other weapon (specify)" as an option too.

Myself, I have a longbow. It's a Martin "Stick" which draws 40# @ 28". If I'm not mistaken, that's just barely legal for deer hunting (37#, I think... ?).

I'd love to collect bows, if only I had the money. I'd like to have at least one of each of the following styles:

• Standard recurve (like a Martin X200)
• Olympic-style takedown
• English longbow
• Native American flatbow
• Middle-eastern recurve
• Mongolian recurve
• Crossbow
• Repeating crossbow
• Ballista :asthanos:

And just for sh*ts and giggles, one of these days I'd like to make an atlatl with a friend of mine who does a lot of bowcrafting and fletching and has made one himself.

From the Wikipedia article on the atlatl:

"Primitive" weapons are no joke. You know, firearms weren't created and used in the beginning because they were any better than longbows/crossbows in the first place. It's only because they require much less training to use. I'd dare say that in the right hands, an English longbow is more deadly than any firearm made up until the 19th century, keeping in mind that firearms were invented around the 15th century!!!

Gumby, I just read that you'd take a Berretta over a Glock... are you insane? They are pieces of metal and plastic glued together with a wholesome helping of feces... No really... they blow ass.

Glocks are pertiful. Our police here use .40 Glocks, ever since their Berrettas were discovered to be... less than reliable when in need.

And you, sir, wouldn't know sh*t if it came out of your anus sideways.

Glocks are even crappier than berettas. Not that I would ever buy a Beretta anyway. They're ladies' guns!

Gimme something that takes a standard .223 round. Doesn't seem all that intimidating until you see what a good .223 pistol can do.

People with drug addictions will do pretty much anything to get money/drugs, rational or often time not. Also, how do YOU know what a person that is just after your stuff would do? Have you done his before?

Oh shit. Busted. Yes, I'm a raging serial rapist.


Also...
Which is precisely why we have a gun in our home.

Yup arrow, you're right, I wouldn't.

I didn't spend 4 years of my life shooting guns for a living.

I surrender my soul to you.

Last I checked you can't sell people or bodies at the pawn shop, why would a drug addict want to kill someone?

You said it yourself - "People with drug addictions will do pretty much anything to get money/drugs, rational or often time not."

How can you be sure that a person strung out on drugs is going to have the mental capacity to know when they've gone too far? I highly doubt that a person flying on PCP is going to bust in my door and then politely say, "Excuse me, ma'am. Would you be so kind as to direct me to your valuables? I'll just relieve you of a few and then I'll be out of your hair." Also, I have children to protect, and as I said before, I live out in the middle of the woods by myself (i.e. no husband at home). I'm not about to trust anything to chance.

Ah, kids these days and their ideals. You're cracking me up, keener. Your arguments have been proven wrong time after time in this thread, yet you won't give up.

Tell ya what...how about YOU forego having a gun in YOUR house and those of us who wish to take advantage of our consitutional rights can do so, hm?

Glocks are grabage in my opinion. I'd take a Colt 1911 over either Glock or Berretta any day of the week.

Umm I don't know about you but a .223 pistol is horribly undepowered for personal defense... If recoil is a problem there are better pistols than something that isn't even 6mm.

AliceNWondrland: Don't worry about keener, he seems to think that we can all just let anyone do what they want once they break into our homes and that the big bad man is really a nice person and won't doing any harm to the people who are inside.

You do realize that by having a CHL you don't have to tell anyone that you are armed right? Not even police have any more right to know if you are packing. They may say otherwise but I suggest that you read that link I put up for OFF. There is a lot of good information. BTW I'm down in the capitol ;), I didn't realize there were any other people here who lived that close to me.

HAHAHA how many people have you ever seen out in the middle of the woods high on PCP? If that number is above 0 I'm going to be shocked. Also, why would someone break into your home if they were already high on a drug? I think it would be when they've come down and are in a more sober state is when they would realized they have no money and that they 'need' to steal. If some guy high on some drug did break down your door and makes you think he wouldn't just shoot you and your kids before you even had a chance to get your gun. Being the loving mom that I'm sure you are, it's doubtful that you walk around with your loaded gun with you 24/7. amirite?

What arguments have I made that have been proven wrong in this thread? The fact that you people live in areas where you THINK you need a gun to protect yourself, is your choice, and I've even said having a gun is fine. Like I said before, I just don't think they are as necessary as you think.


EDIT - Here's a question for all you people that seem to think guns are needed for the protection of you and your family. How many of you have used your gun in self defense on your own property?

Baseball bats are much cheaper and just as intimidating.

Double Post:
What do you intend to defend yourself from? A gorilla? You don't know what you're talking about. The diameter of the round isn't all that matters. Hell, look at the .357 Magnum. It's "not quite 9mm" but it'll take down a rhino. The standard .223 is pretty well conceived. Little round, big kick.

A 90lb meth-head is a "big bad man"??? What are you, in the lollipop guild?

You're probably right. Most people will never actually NEED a gun. But having one is still a good idea. Why? Take car insuracne for example... you probably won't wreck your car, but you have insurance anyway. You might go your whole life without ever needing a gun or insurance, but that doesn't mean having them is a bad idea... It's about being prepared to deal with a bad situation. It's better to not need it and have it, than to not have it and need it...

Moving on...

.223 Handgun? They exist, but are pretty rare. The .223 is a rifle round after all...

True, there are 4 factors the determine how "powerful" a round is:

#1: Velocity
#2: Weight
#3: Diameter
#4: Shape/Design (FMJ vs JHP for example)

Do you? Have you any real shooting experiance? I thought you were a bow expert, not a gun expert...

I do NOT recomend .357 for Rhino hunting. I wouldn't use a .357 to hunt anything bigger than deer, and even then it's not a great deer round.

Also, .357 is actually a larger diameter than 9mm by 0.002 of an inch (0.357 vs 0.355)

Ever shoot a .223? They don't kick much. At least I don't think so anyway, recoil is a realative thing. I've shot real kickers like .338 Win Mag, so .223 doesn't seem like much to me...

You're kidding, right? If I had my choice to fight someone armed with a bat, or someone armed with a gun, I'd fight the guy with the bat. I'm sure you'd rather fight the guy with the bat too...

Lastly, on the Glock vs Beretta issue, I prefer Berettas. But it's really a matter of individual preferance. I don't like "plastic" guns, and even if I did I wouldn't like glocks because they're too "fat". I like single-stack pistols because they're thinner... If I were to get a "plastic" gun, it would probably be a Khar...

Here in the lovely state of Washington it is illegal to drive without car insurance, that's why I have it. Having a gun is fine, I personally never said it was a bad idea, but I don't want one. And until it's state law to get one I see no reason for me to have one.

www.fark.com FTW BITCHES!

I got an answer for this one: my father. When I was 6 months old.

Damn son, I just keep shootin ftw left and right. Shit son, I'm not like Mike, I AM Mike.

Care to elaborate either of these two statements, because your link means nothing to me, and I'd like to here about this situation in which your dad use his gun in self defence by a guy who was trying to steal his belongings.

What, you think someone's just going to want to shoot you for the fun of it, but give you ample enough warning for you to get your own gun out? Please.

Guns are used by criminals for threat and insurance. If you cooperate when you're being robbed or whatever, you won't get shot. I'd rather be robbed of $100, than pay $200 for a handgun and risk getting shot.

I couldn't resist getting involved in the original discussion with some lamer who thought Glocks are good.

Sorry, I meant .357 Magnum.

I wouldn't know. I always thought .45=9mm.

Nope.

But I have heard a story from a friend who was in the military and someone in his squad tried out a .223 submachinegun. Like you, she didn't expect much kickback, but her arm actually got windmilled around almost backwards by the kickback, and her squad leader nearly caught a bullet in the head - got a real nice scrape across the side of his helmet. He beat her unconscious and she was RTU'ed that same day.

Yeah, and the bat costs pennies whereas the gun costs $$$ and requires a permit, etc. And when your kids are sleeping in the next room over, believe me the bat is the better option.

My point is, I'd rather defend my house with a bat or kitchen knife than barehanded. A gun isn't a viable option in a sane country.

It takes me about 3 seconds to get to a loaded gun, LOL...

NOT TRUE. Often times the criminal will kill you anyway, so as not to leave any witnesses...

My point is, how do you know that they arn't good if you've never actually tried using one? I don't like Glocks either, but I still think that they are "decent" pistols. And yes, I have actually shot them before...

Thats what I'm talking about... just because a round has the word "Magnum" in it, don't go thinking its super powerful or something. One great example of this is .22 Magnum. Yes, it's a "Magnum", but it's still pretty weak compared to most non-magnum rounds...

Nope... 9mm = .355 caliber, and just for comparison, 10mm = .40 caliber

Full auto is a little different, you get a constant kick on full auto, thats probably what got her... normally .223 has a very mild recoil...

One word for you: Shotgun.

Shot pellets (birdshot anyway) is unlikely to go thru walls, therefore it's the ideal gun for home protection. I can't argue your point about the bat being cheaper, but you can find decent guns at prices that won't bankrupt you...

Why not? I think the gun is actually the smarter way to go...

And what about old people for example? A 70 year old isn't going to be able to protect themself with a bat, a gun really is the only option they have. Same goes for people with disabilitys...

You're hardcore! :edgarrock:

God this is what I missed about this forum... All these people who think that everything can be solved peacefully or with as little force/violence as possible.

I invite all of yall that fall into this category to read Starship Troopers (nothing like the movie and it's only about 200 pages... I read it in about 4-5 hours).

Wrong. Criminals don't want to get caught, but they REALLY don't want to get caught for something big. It goes without saying that it's much, much worse to get caught on murder than is for theft. But that's okay. Your solution to every situation is to carry a gun. You're no psych major.

Because I've heard stories over the last fifteen years. And because I've played Counterstrike, for what little that's worth. :tpg:

A .357 magnum will split a car's engine block. That's what it was conceived for in the first place, actually...

True. And that's where you get into the realm of "special consideration" and not "hey everybody should own a gun".

About self defense on your own proporty...

Well, lets put it this way when your mom has two children at home that are 2 and 1. Your mom having only one hand due to birth defect. She had to rush into the closest, grab the shotgun, load it and cock it with one hand without any problems and wait for the intruder to bust down the door and just try it. Cause if he would have(He gave up trying to bust in), he would have been more then likely missing a leg or two cause trust me, I've seen my mom fire handguns and other things in target practice. She does very well for having one hand.

That is the only time I know of, but even then, even now, I do feel much safer in my house with a gun or two. Hell, even hunting rifles will do the trick, or even a crossbow. My uncle who lives in upnorth wisconsin has used a crossbow for hunting and as well some other weaponary. He uses it even in self defense cause of the drunkards who go hunting, get drunk wander off and threaten people with the guns.

Oh and if you want to go very primal, use a crossbow, that'll really get them then. A nice big bolt into the chest or anther body part.

To me, there is no peace way to deal with someone breaking into the house armed or not. I'd still rather have the edge on the robber with an ambush, warning them and if they do not disarm, take out a leg or arm and then disarm them and if I must go farther then I will, simple as that.

You don't know me very well, thats all I have to say. Go read my comments in the "martial arts" thread. There's alot more to self-defense than having a gun...

The gun is the way to go in certain situations (like armed robbers breaking into your home), but it's not always the best choice, or the smartest choice...

Bullshit.

Also, the .357 was designed as a "hunting" version of the .38 specail

I never said "everyone" should have one, LOL. I'm just explaining my own reasons for wanting one. Guns aren't for everyone. However, I do think that most people are smart enough and responsible enough to own a gun...

Agree with David on the reason that there are certain reasons why to use a gun on someone but to me, using it makes it certain that I am a step up from the robber rather he is armed or not. Even if I am going to use it or not.

With that being said, the only ways i was taught how to use was a gun or knife, so either way even if I am just using it to capture someone without even firing a single round or make them run away. I'd rather do that then try to use something else and die.

It isn't that the gun is bad, it's how you use it.

In most home defense situations, a gun is really overkill. If you're worried about the safety of your home and family, before you consider purchasing a gun, consider a dog. German shepherds, retrievers of the Laborador or golden variety, the fact is that dogs know something is up when someone comes in the house without your permission. And most lowlifes don't have the guts to face down an animal with sharp teeth and a threatening bark. On top of all that, a dog is a companion, too. I know my Remingtons don't wag tails and run in circles when I get home. So yeah. Dogs are usually an adequate alternative, unless you're in a particularly bad area where people will kill your poor pooch just to get that drug money, if they're capable. But even then the dog's still a good early warning system. If you're allergic to dogs or something that'd be another thing too. But yeah. Dogs that have the potential to be threatening are an extremely good crime deterrent.

Hmm, yeah, a dog won't help you if it's dead.

I like how Alice is so quick to call me out, but has yet to make any retort...

You gotta replace them every once in a while.

It's because you're being retarded, keener. You make statements as if you know the demographics and crime rates on every area of the country, which you clearly do not. I'm just tired of arguing with you, and that's the plain and simple of it.

I told you about the three murders that have occurred in my neighborhood, yet you still act like you aren't convinced that there's a need for a gun. Also, you say things like, "What if someone takes that gun and uses it on you?" which is fucking ridiculous because they'd be dead as soon as they started toward me.

I'm not some crazed killer, but I know how to use a gun and I have absolutely no problem using it if I feel threatened in my own home. Whatever you say won't change my mind. This is America, punkin. I have the right to bear arms and I'm going to take advantage of it.

I'm tired of arguing with you. Your points are weak, and I'm bored.

God this is what I missed about this forum... All these retards who misrepresent your point of view.

That's fine that your done, I will be to, but rereading your posts you said nothing about 3 murders in your neighborhood in any other post than the one I'm quoting. And please don't take that mom 'tone of voice' with me, just because you protected your kids from a stick that brushed up against your house. You DO have the right to bear arms but I also have the right to find you points just as weak as mine.

Wow a lot happened here since I last logged on...

ArrowHead: I suggest you get some real experience before you judge a firearm. The reason I don't like Glocks is that they are overpriced plastic garbage. I can get something far more reliable for more than 1/2 the price. BTW CS doesn't count as experience with a weapon. Also did you know that the reason why we use 5.56mm (.223) ammunition in the military is not to kill, rather it is to disable and force the enemy to use two other men to carry the wounded off the battle field, in my opinion unless you are in a fire fight with someone wearing Kevlar .223 would be horribly underpowered and in a life or death situation you want to end it as fast as possible... not have to shoot the other guy 3 or more times to take him down. You hear about those FBI agents who had to shoot someone crazed on PCP more than a dozen times to take him down? Oh btw they were using 9mm ammunition. Another reason why I prefer .44 mag or .45 ACP, should I ever have to use it I know it will not take 12 rounds to disable or kill someone.

David4516: Thanks for the rebuttals while I was gone. Seems you have been dead on the money so far. Have you ever heard of Hi-Point firearms? Seems they sell some dirt cheap and reliable pistols and pistol carbines. I've considered buying their .45ACP model. Can't beat the price at 129.99 retail.

AliceNWondrland: Yeah I don't see anything about murders :/ on a side note though we had some a few gang shootings a while back and this is Oregon!

Also about the dog idea. I wouldn't trust my life solely on a dog, even a trained police dog. I don't like putting my life in the hands of others when they can't even count... ASVAB Score = -10. Not to say that it is a bad idea for home protections as we have had our little lab/shar pai mix chase off an addict. Unfortunately he went to the next unlocked door which was our neighbors who had two teen aged girls asleep in bed :(. Needless to say it didn't end well.

Harmonica: A gun is never overkill for home protection, only the use of the gun could be overkill. i.e. someone breaks into your home and you pop out with a pistol or shotgun pointed at them and they run. If you shoot them running away that is murder. However if they in turn start to point a weapon at you or reach for anything and you shoot it is self defense. Remember, the only time when it is legal to kill someone is when they have 1.) Committed a felony and 2.) you are now fearful for your life or the lives of loved ones.

Harmonica, I think you have the right idea about dogs. They are a good way of scaring off criminals (most people don't want to mess with an animal with pointy teeth). I don't know that I'd trust my dog to be 100% effective against criminals though. He's kind of lazy, he might just decide to sleep instead of trying to scare off any would-be home invaders. So I'll keep my gun as a backup to the dog...

I like to think that I know what I'm talking about. I've got almost 20 years of shooting experiance (been shooting since I was a kid), I've also worked at places where it was my job to sell guns. I wouldn't call myself an "expert", but I do consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable.

Not only have I heard of Hi-Point firearms, I've shot them before. To be honest, I wouldn't trust them with my life. They're dirt cheap and fun to shoot, but I don't feel they are as reliable as they should be. On top of that, they're freaking HUGE. It's shaped more like a brick than a handgun. If you're looking for a decent pistol in the $130 price range, I'd recomend the Makarov. I've been very impressed with the one I bought, in fact it is my weapon of choice for concealed carry (I think I mentioned this before).

This next comment is to every one in general: If you're thinking about buying a gun, do not chose one based on caliber. What I mean by this, is don't buy something simply because it's a .45 or a 9mm or whatever. Buy it because it has the features you're looking for, and because it fits well in your hand. Ergonomics (spelling?) can be very important. Caliber isn't nearly as important as most people think. As long as you can hit what you aim at, even a smaller round like .32 ACP can do alot of damage...

I can't. In Canada you can't just decide "well fuck I'd like a shiny new handgun" and go out and buy one. This is a civilized, sane country.

Owning a weapon doesn't make you all-knowing. It makes you armed, and predisposed to violence over thought.

Duh. It's one of the oldest tactics in the book - wound, don't kill, because killing only takes one man off the battlefield but wounding takes three off.

Stop right there. I live in a country where firefights just don't happen. Because we just don't let any wacko buy a gun!

I guess you've never been shot. Being shot will make you think twice about what you're doing, to say the least.

"Bigger is better" stupidity. You know, if someone really wanted to do you in, he'd run you over with his car. So what are you going to do now, hide an RPG under the back seat?

Looking at the statistics of how many children accidentally kill each other with their parents handguns, I beg to differ.

You seem to think that because your country heavily regulates firearms that people don't have them. Remember, regulations on firearms take weapons out the of the hands of the citizens, NOT the criminals. Get a clue.

This situation in itself is stupid Arrow, someone who wants to rob you is not going to run you down with a car. However someone who wants to murder you might just do that. Most criminals when you pull out a pistol are just going to run because you are now dangerous to them, they have lost control of the situation, and in all reality most criminals are cowards. Besides the fact that a shot from a .22 or .223 isn't always going to disable a criminal, a shot from a .45 will most certainly do a LOT more damage and unless the guy is wearing armor he will be down in a matter of seconds from blood loss.

You seem to be very ignorant on what it means to own a firearm here. I was taught at a young age to respect firearms, they are tools not toys. You seem to think that because I own them I am more likely to go out and start shooting people. I have said otherwise. I know when such measures such as a pistol or other form of defense are needed. Don't mistake those who own guns as mindless hicks who shoot up everything they see, this is not the case. I am not more predisposed to violence than anyone else. The difference is that I now have the ability to defend myself against an armed criminal. Something an unarmed citizen lacks.

No, if properly used and handled a firearm is not overkill. Most of those situations are the fault of the parent for not giving their child a heathly respect/fear for a gun. You might want to beware those statistics, they like to include all those gang shootings into their statistics to over inflate the numbers.

Exactly. It's not so much the size of the piece of hot metal that's entering their body quite forcefully, it's just the fact that there is a piece of hot metal entering their body quite forcefully. For home defense, smaller calibers are a better choice, because they have less potential to overpenetrate and ruin things in your house or even hurt the people you're trying to protect, which is sort of counter-intuitive.

Technically no. I'm not sure about all of Canada, but I know firearms aren't encouraged here. They're in the works of banning citizen owned firearms in Ontario. I think you need to have a pretty good reason (a permit) to own a firearm here.

I have to agree with a dog being a good idea for home defense. A few years ago someone broke into our garage with intent to steal our car (they'd already stole another car down the road and crashed it) and they were scared away by our dog's barking.

It's true that a dead dog can't defend your home, but honestly, look at how many break-ins have resulted in a few things being stolen as apposed to those that have ended in deaths. Also, even if someone is comming to do you harm, and they end up killing your dog, you're most likely going to hear the commotion and be able to better defend yourself by being aware that something is going on.

It's understandable to have a gun for protection, but I don't think it's necessary for me. The need for protection in northern Minnesota is pretty small. That break-in in our garage is about the only break-in in my neighborhood that I've ever heard of. Not too dangerous.

i think gun regulations are in need espically in regards to such weapons as shotguns. After this weekend's massacre up in seattle were an acquaintance of mine was killed by a shotgun. Seriously, why are shotguns legal? you really can't hunt with them without maiming the animal to the point of the meat being unusable. All they are is people killers.

I do airsoft, does that count?

I'm more inclined to say that a man killed your friend, not the gun that he was holding. Shotguns are not as bad/pointless as hanguns.

I'm sorry that you have to suffer the loss of someone you know. But as ArrowHead has already said in more or less words, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." It is these sorts of knee jerk reactions that get stupid and pointless laws passed that only stop law abiding citizens from gaining firearms, NOT criminals. Cutting legal avenues of weapons will only cause a rise in deaths like this.

Handguns serve just as much a purpose as shotguns do. I have no idea why you are so blindly biased against handguns but they are not only effective self defense weapons, they are also used to hunt small to medium game (sometimes large game by the brave...). A shotgun is great for home defense but you can't take a shotgun with you at all times.

I don't like handguns because they can be concealed, and because the vast majority of them are, like Iwata said, "people killers".

I'd say shotguns aren't quite so bad because 1) They can't be concealed like hanguns can and 2) As mentioned earlier in the thread, shotguns can be good for home defense, because buckshot is not as likely as a bullet to go through the wall and injure/kill someone in the next room.

When I move out, Im probably gonna get quite a few guns just in case zombies should appear. Im not gonna get enough guns to kill off a devastatingly large population of zombies, but only enough guns and ammo to make a driving path to get to a gunstore so I can load up on more guns and ammunition.


But more on topic, I agree that people kill people. The reason I dont like people who own guns is because I dont know, thus dont trust them to be responsible with a firearm like I would be, but its something I have to accept because Im thinking of owning a pistol for home protection. But hell, I might not, since I get somewhat nervous and paranoid around guns.

In Oklahoma it's legal to shoot someone trespassing on your land provided you have no trespassing signs in place. In the towns you can get nailed for improper use of a firearm but not charged with murder for shooting someone who breaks into your hoem if I remember correctly. Not entirely related but i find it interesting and it always kept me out of random peoples fields when I was kid.

I don't really find that I need a gun of any kind really but I like them enough that I plan to buy one when i can scrape together the money. Only been shooting once but it was really fun and I'm fairly certain I can resist the urge to shoot random people.

Its this kind of ignorance that puts stupid laws into effect.

Can't hunt with a shotgun? You're kidding, right? Shotguns are ideal for many kinds of hunting. Bird hunting for example. If fact it's pretty much impossible to bird hunt with anything other than a shotgun. Also, shotguns are popluar (and in some cases, the only legal firearm) for deer hunting in populated areas, because a shotgun slug won't go as far as a rifle bullet, and is therefore safer.

So, that evil shotgun just decided to murder someone? I don't think so, as others have said, guns don't kill people, people kill people. I'm sorry to hear that your friend died, but he was killed by some crazy bastard, not by a shotgun...

I don't understand the appeal of airsoft... and I don't think it counts either, LOL...

I like handguns for the very reason you don't like them: they are portable and concealable. I disagree with the "people killers" part though. Many people use handguns for target shooting and/or hunting. I also carry one when I'm out in the woods because I've had encounters with bear and cougar before. When you're face to face with a 500 pound animal with pointy teeth, you feel alot better knowing that you can shoot it if you have to. There are many reasons why a person might want a pistol, they aren't just "people Killers"...

I understand you're feelings, but that's just how it is. Look at cars for example, they are far more dangerous than guns, yet you're surrounded by them, and they're being driven by people you don't know, and therefore don't trust...

On a side note, have any of you seen "Thats my Bush"? There was a great episode dealing with these very issues, and the moarl of the story was "You should have the right to bear arms, but not the right to arm bears"...

I spent part of my year in an area that is has many hunters and wildlife, to the point that any given morning, you can spot a deer grazing. I've never heard of a hunter who used a shotgun to hunt for meat which IMO is the only justifiable use for a firearm. The only people i have seen use shotgun's to hunt, are the ones who only kill for the trophy head.

With your reasoning of thinking, Why aren't drugs legal? pipes don't kill people, people kill people. Guns may not directly kill people, but they are difinetely an accessory that makes it far easier to kill someone and shouldn't be allowed. The weapon used to kill my friend was a 12-gauge Winchester Defender shotgun.

According to the police, that is a weapon designed for the purpose of self-defense which is in plain terms, Meant to kill or seriously mame a human. These type of weapons should not be in the hands or accessible to any civilian which they are.

Shotguns are a common weapon used to take down small and medium game. Just because you have never seen one used doesn't mean they aren't. Also if you had any experience with a shotgun you would know that we use buckshot on deer. BTW you aren't filling the animal with a lot of shot, large buck shot has less than 10 balls in it. Also before you eat the animal you pull out the shot, which is the same as when you dig out the slug of a rifle when hunting.

Also since people who want to bash on gun owners can't stay on topic here I have created a thread in PP. Go there if you have anything further to say people who own firearms or anything to do with how people shouldn't own guns.

A little late to this one, but I've got 2 handguns, a Ruger P-90, .45 in stainless and my carry weapon, a Ruger P94 DAO in .40. I have a remington 12 guage, and my favorite, a M-1 carbine by Rock Island Arsenal, its surplus Israeli army and shoots beautifully.
I shoot Golden sabre ammo in my 2 pistols.

I'm going to cover that in the other topic in PP...

Wesker,

What do you think of that Isreali M1 Carbine? I've been considering buying one myself. I have a soft-spot for the little M1, it was the gun that I learned how to shoot with when I was a kid (about 5 years old at the time)...

As for ammo choices, I reload so I make my own. But the actual bullet (not the entire cartridge, I'm talking about the projectile itself) that I use when I make them is the Hornady XTP. I've done some testing with them and they expand very nicely. I have heard good things about the golden sabers though, alot of people I know recomend them, including my Dad (an even bigger gun nut than me). For shotguns I normally go with #4 shot...

My ammo choices change a little when I'm out hiking or camping. I'm more interested in penitration than expansion because it's possible I'll have a run-in with a bear or other large animal. So when I'm in the great outdoors I'll often carry FMJs instead. Also, if I have a shotgun in camp, I'll keep it loaded with #00 Buckshot instead of the smaller #4 shot I normally use...

I'm surprised I missed this thread.

In my lifetime I've owned several handguns, most of which have been of the "aftermarket" variety, if you get my drift. Today we actually own three registered firearms:

A 10mm Glock 20: My personal handgun. Very light, easy to use, has almost no recoil and uses 3 safeties. I mainly only keep this for home security.

A Colt .38 Revolver: My dad's gun. He used to use it to kill goats back when we used to kill one per weekend to make birria for the entire family, but since we haven't done that in a while, I'm not sure where that gun went.

A Remington 5399, 20 gauge shotgun: Also belongs to the old man. I've seen it in the past few months, so I'm sure we still have this one. This one was purchased for hunting, but my dad stopped going and I never bothered to take it up myself.

As for the illegal firearms... Well, they came and went real easily and it was basically one of those stupid periods in my life when I just wanted to have a gun for the sole purpose of saying, "I'm from Califas and I have a 'cuete', homes." However, the ONE of these that I can honestly say I'm going to miss the most, was a massive nickel-plated hand-cannon: A Desert Eagle .50. The only real reason I got rid of this piece was because it was FAR too impractical. This thing had a massive recoil that even I had trouble getting used to and even then my arms would sometimes be sore if I fired it for extended periods of time. Still, that was a fucking awesome pistol and I still wish I could pick one up and fire it just to see if I can get knocked on my ass after a few rounds. I don't even remember who I sold it to, but that's probably a good thing.

What? Where are you booked for the honeymoon? Downtown Honduras?

Honduras is a Central American nation situated between Nicaragua and Guatemala.

I love the M-1..its a real tack driver at 50 yards. shoots smooth and easy. It was pretty rough when I got it, but i gave it a good cleaning and refinished the stock and it looks just fine now. I'm considering buying one of the suplus 30 round magazines for it, but the 15 round have been just fine so far.

I believe in the right to bear arms very heavily, especially during these times when people are more dangerous than ever recorded in history. I own a 9x18 Makarov. Its its rounds are a bit wider than a 9mm's rounds (closer to a .380), but the rounds are almost as long as an 9mm's. That Makarov can actually chamber a .380 round but as far as firing one, I'm not sure.

If I could have another gun, I'd go for the Semi-Automatic .357 Sig Sauer Pro pistol. Its is the first gun I've ever shot I like the way it handles. I like it much better than the standard 9mm, even though the 9mm recoil usually allows for better accuracy during continuous firing.

My dream gun is a Fully-Automtic .40 caliber pistol w/ interchangeable barrel allowing .45 caliber rounds. I'd also keep an extended mag for when I needed the fully automatic capabilities. I'd love to own a gun like that, but fully automatic pistols COST!!

What are you babbling about? I want something that she can use to defend herself because she is not a big person. How else do you expect a small woman to be able to defend herself?!?

Wesker: The M-1 is a pleasure to fire. Aw I'd love to own one, sadly though they are not cheap :(

Encephalon: As cool as it would be to own a .50AE Desert Eagle that is a waste of money. The .44mag Desert Eagle while still a hand cannon is far more manageable and practical for hunting and possibly home defense if you wanted to make sure that whom ever broke into your home was extra dead :/

Darkk Child: Geez, what would you need a .40 full-auto pistol for?!? Holy crap that would suck to fire.

Yeah... Back then that was kind of my reasoning behind having it. But since it was cheap ($250) I didn't really care. Now I figure that I'd rather not take my chances in court if I end up miscalculating my aim and blowing a hole in some guys chest instead of just pegging him with a couple "love taps". :p

lol wow that is cheap. I don't think I could pass up an offer like that.

Well... It wasn't exactly legal, and there's a good reason why I don't own it anymore...

Darkk Child,

The acutal bullet diameter for 9X18 Makarov is 0.365

Standard 9mm is 0.355, but a number of different rounds use this diameter bullet, including .380, .357 sig, and .38 Super

Edit:

10mm doesn't kick? You're kidding, right? 10mm is a very beefy round... it's like a souped-up .40 S&W...

Doesn't Mexico outlaw any firearm that is in a caliber that the government uses?

I don't live in Mexico. I live in Central California.

Double Post:
Well... I've never thought it kicked as much as the .50, that's why it doesn't feel like it has such a heavy recoil... At least not to me.

That's why I like my Glock much more than I ever did the .50.

The mexican flag is decieving :/

Personally speaking I think a .45 would be the largest handgun I'd ever want to own... Plenty of power with out the bone breaking recoil.

That could be because I'm Mexican. But oh well... Only beaners know for sure. :p

Why are you obsessed with self-defence?

This is America, Cal. Where every man's standard issue carhorn is a 9mm.

What makes you think I am? Safety is always an issue, no matter where you go. Since I can't be with her all the time to protect her I'd like her to have the ability and training to do so herself.

Besides the fact that I actually enjoy target shooting and hunting, I have a good number of reasons why I want and enjoy owning guns.

If you have any further arguements againsts gun ownership, take it to the PP. I started a nice little thread for all those that felt the need to argue in the wrong place.

I've noticed you're always very quick to mention safety and self-defence and firearm education, but you do realise, strictly, that you're obsessed with guns, right?

Tell me you're capable of admitting this.

Also, aren't you the one who claimed in your byway thread that if all you have is a hammer, all your problems start looking like nails? Even for all your preaching the necessity of teaching kids that guns aren't toys, by the parent post of this thread, it's as though you buy them like games consoles.

Like a gun-nut.

What's wrong with being obsessed with guns?

I just want some intellectual comeuppance.

I can take on board the acceptability of being a gun fanatic if you can the acceptability of being fascinated as to how a fanatic thinks.

I'm afraid you lost me there, brother. Why am I fascinated with how a fanatic thinks again?

I'm probing this dork because I have an idle fascination with foreign thinking and my lasagne isn't yet ready.

I see... Well, my Vicodin just kicked in and I'm going to sleep.

Toodles. :p

Wow... alright David4516, the first portion is for you.

I don't know the exact diameter of the rounds, but I do know that I noticed the .357 sig sauer pro had noticeably better kick than the 9mm that the Navy guys had in the booth next to me.

I would really like to have a fully automatic pistol, and to be honest, it probably doesn't matter how large the rounds are. I'd settle for a fully automatic 9mm at this point. I fell in love with the one that John Travolta was firing at the end of face off. I even liked the pair Brad Pitt was firing at the end of Mr. and Mrs. Smith. At this point, I just want a fully automatic pistol

Naw Cal, I am not obsessed with guns. My grandfather is obsessed with them but not I. He owns more than a hundred different firearms ranging from derangers to an old tommie gun (which btw is a pretty bad ass smg) even an AR-15. I believe he has more than one old 1911 handgun. He is also armed at all times. I'd pity the man who tried to rob my grandfather.

Cal have you ever fired a gun before? Even if it was just for target practice, it is fun. While I never want to be put into a situation where I must use a gun against another person, I still would like to be prepared for such a situation.

Never fired a gun before, no. I've heard a shotgun fired from two metres away (no idea what 'guage' shot). Does this count as exposure? Remember, I'm from a nation with some of the strictest firearm laws in the world.

I guess I take it for granted that in America we are allowed access to those sort of weapons. There are still a lot of restrictions but nothing like what the UK has.

an AR-15? it's nothing more than a militarized looking semi-auto .223. it's not like you can hold the trigger down and spray bullets. you can shoot .223 from a pistol with a Thompson Center Contender Super 14.

You do know that those are just props, right? They may look identical to real-life firearms, but the real thing may fire very differently from the film version.

(If you want to see really "off" gun props, watch Terminator 2: Judgment Day. The "T1000" character has some sort of standard-issue police pistol, but the sound effect they used in the post-processing sounds like something with a silencer on it. :P)

Double Post:
If you hurt yourself from the recoil of anything smaller than an anti-tank rifle, then you must be holding it wrong.

Anyway, I'd love to see any of the dumbass gun nuts in this thread draw and shoot an english longbow, or talk their way out of a scary situation. Sadly, too many Americans these days are so quick to rely on mechanical implements. So many of their bodies and minds aren't good for sh*t.

I think guns are one of the roots to destruction. Matter of fact, i think guns are the devils work and they need to go.

If mankind continues to sell guns and make guns, gun violence will always happen - Mystery Ridah aka The General

M-16A2 is really not one of my favorite rifles... I'm hoping when I get deployed I can get the M-249 instead :D

umm ArrowHead I didn't mean that literally... Also wtf are you trying to do? Brag about your use of a bow? Sorry bud but I am not impressed at your use of an outdated weapon. How heavy of a draw do you use on your bows?

Why do you have to be an ignorant asshole, Ay? You know what I'd love to see? A bow hunter take down an elk at 300yards in one shot. Remember Arrowhead this is a discussion of what firearms we want, NOT a place for you to bash on Americans or guns.

Hey MysteryRidah, you need to take your stupid anti-gun opinion to the PP, this is not the place.

ugh, ok two things.

1. about recoil on guns. it's pretty simple here. M1V1=M2V2 where m1 is the mass of the bullet and v1 is the velocity of the bullet and m2 is the mass of the gun and v2 is the velocity of the gun. so... if the bigger and faster the bullet with respect to the size of the gun, the greater the recoil.

if your .22 pistol is teenie tiny, like 4 oz, it's going to recoil more than a .458 Winchester Magnum that's 600lbs. (not to say that either gun would actually weigh that much; just an illustration.) so if you're looking for a pistol that doesn't kick a lot, look for a bullet that you like, and find a model of the gun that's heavy enough to reduce the recoil.

2. you want a full auto pistol? good luck. here's some info:

"It has been unlawful since 1934 (The National Firearms Act) for civilians to own machine guns without special permission from the U.S. Treasury Department. Machine guns are subject to a $200 tax every time their ownership changes from one federally registered owner to another, and each new weapon is subject to a manufacturing tax when it is made, and it must be registered with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) in its National Firearms Registry.

To become a registered owner, a complete FBI background investigation is conducted, checking for any criminal history or tendencies toward violence, and an application must be submitted to the BATF including two sets of fingerprints, a recent photo, a sworn affidavit that transfer of the NFA firearm is of "reasonable necessity," and that sale to and possession of the weapon by the applicant "would be consistent with public safety." The application form also requires the signature of a chief law enforcement officer with jurisdiction in the applicant's residence.

Since the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of May 19, 1986, ownership of newly manufactured machine guns has been prohibited to civilians. Machine guns which were manufactured prior to the Act's passage are regulated under the National Firearms Act, but those manufactured after the ban cannot ordinarily be sold to or owned by civilians."

on top of that, automatic weapons laws vary from state to state. so check your state laws if you're really serious.

Yeah; I take my public safety for granted.

PP isn't an offloading ground for undesirable input, cockpacker.

You.

Yes you.

Angel who descended from heaven.

Where firearms are vaporized by the sound of celestial lyres and where those who carry weapons are promptly dispatched by Gabriel. Does the Creator send any more blissful tales of eternal peace and harmony?

Duh. You made a stupid statement, I gave it an appropriate response.

No. I think archery is great fun and its sad that so few people have any interest in it.

Anybody who can both a) draw a bow powerful enough to throw an arrow 250 yards plus and b) hit a man or deer sized target at that range, should be proud of himself. To have the same bragging rights as a firearm user, it'd at the very least have to be a fast moving target at that same range.
Frankly, any moron can hit a stationary at 300 yards with a rifle. There's just no sport in anything that doesn't take skill.

I'm not impressed with anybody's use of a weapon that doesn't require any skill or thought to use. And here's news for you buddy: Crossbows are still in use by some military special forces. Why? Because a crossbow is still quieter than a firearm with a silencer.

My current bow is 40# and I'm very comfortable with it. To tell you the truth, I don't know how powerful I can go. I'd have to guess around 60# before I have to a) shoot a lot more or b) hit the gym.

Speak for yourself.

You know what I'd love to see? A rifle hunter track an elk and get within 40 yards to take the shot. Fat chance, though. Rifle-bearing "hunters" (club-footed retards) tend to sit around and hope the game comes to them. That's not exactly "hunting". That's "camping". :D

It's a discussion on firearms, period. I think citizens do not need to carry guns, and I like the finesse of older weapons. And I'm perfectly within my right to express my point of view. If you can't stand what your love for guns says about you, then just ignore it and move on. Don't antagonize me.

Well he is right about gun violence though. As long as guns that are made to use against people (i.e. handguns) are legal, people will be shot! It's like if you legalized cocaine, hundreds of thousands of people would become addicted. But somehow cocaine is illegal. Hmm. ;)

I wouldn't say that I'm "obsessed" with guns, but I am very much interested in them. Thats because shooting and hunting are big hobbies of mine...

Correct, the .357 Sig is more "powerful" than a 9mm. The actual bullet itself is the same size and weight, however the .357 Sig has greater velocity. Thats because, if you look at the casing, you'll notice that it's "bottle necked". The .357 Sig is actually a .40 S&W case "necked-down" to hold 9mm bullets. 38 Super is the same idea, but instead of being a short, fat case like the .357 Sig, it's a long skinny case. The standard 9mm case is 19mm long, the .38 Super is 23mm long, so you can cram that much more powder in there. In terms of actual preformance, the .357 Sig and .38 Super are nearly identical...

Here are the actual stats from one of my reloading manuals. These assume that you're using bullets weighing 124gr:

9mm:1100 FPS
.357 Sig: 1300 FPS
.38 Super: 1250 FPS

For comparison, .357 Mag, with the same bullet weight, will give you 1400 FPS. The actuall bullet diameter is slightly larger as well, 0.357 instead of the 9mms 0.355

By the way, FPS means "Feet Per Second", it's a velocity measurement.

Also, you mentioned something about using .380 rounds in your 9X18 pistol. I would not recomend doing this. While it will probably "work", it will cause extra strain on your gun and may be unsafe.

You may be interested in this link:

http://www.makarov.com/32naa/index.html

The above article tells you how to convert your Makarov pistol to shoot the new .32 NAA round. The .32 NAA is similar to the .357 Sig in that it is also a "bottleneck" round. Its a .380 case necked-down to hold .32 caliber bullets. Basicly, this gives you a much higer velocity, the trade-off being a ligher bullet weight. The conversion barrels are currently out of stock, but I'm probably going to buy one if they get more in...

On the full auto subject, I don't understand the appeal of a full auto pistol. It sounds like it would be a waste of ammo to me...

Explain to me how shooting a longbow is a useful skill? Also, I'm much more likely to use my fists than my handgun. Just because I'm American doesn't mean I'm some fat, lazy slob. I'm in decent shape and I don't think I'm somebody you'd want to mess with, armed or not...

Its more sport than anything, but it's definitely a survival skill. You can take down game as big as a bear with a bow and arrows, so you've got both food and defense taken care of.

Some might say this only makes bows as good as firearms for survival, at best. So I should point out that bows arrows can be made from scratch and can be used an indefinate number of times, whereas a bullet fired is a bullet forever lost and you can't just make a rifle.

Just because your countrymen are Americans doesn't mean they're fat, lazy slobs either. They're fat lazy slobs because they're fat lazy slobs.

Thanks, David4516, for your insight! You are really knowledgeable (sp?).

Yeah, you're right, but I live in Maryland and got to the armory, where they sell the big stuff. Its not really hard to get your hands on what you want there. Thanks for letting me know that the fully-autos I had been speaking of are props. I still like the way they are deplicted to fire, though.

It is definitely apparent that both of you know more about guns than I. Perhaps one of you might know how to add more power to the rounds by adding more firing powder. I wasn't able to read the links I was sent because I'm at work now ;_;

when making your own loads, you want to pay strict attention that you are only using the recommended amount of powder. making your own custom bullets that exceed the recommended amounts could result in disaster as guns are specifically engineered to work with specific bullets. There are certain cases where for example: a 357 magnum will also fire .38 specials, but the reverse won't work. If you want a more powerful round, you're gonna have to get a bigger gun, or risk serious injury... like the gun exploding in your face.

snicker

hee-hee

oh my

I dont know where you live but up here everyone bow hunts. I know more people who shoot a bow than shotgun (cant hunt with rifles here).

Listen man are you like Level 20< ? Because we need a ranger for our party and the last guy ditched us to go hang out with some girl. No munchkin stuff, plzkthx.

That's awesome. You're in an ex-Confederate state, right? ;) (The tradition of bowhunting arose as guns were banned following the civil war.)

Double Post:
Funny thing is I mostly RP Barbarians. :tpg:

Encephalon & Cal:

You dont have to listen to me, alot of people dont anyway. Everybody will learn soon, i mean, you know the history, so please continue to ignore me, please do so. I was just sharing my views on this issue, if you dont agree, so be it and the world continues to move on........

Peace.

No one will listen to you because you sounds like not only an idiot but a crazy one at that.

If you want to go and debate gun ownership there is a nice little thread I created over in PP, go there.

Darkk Child: I would advise against loading more powder into a round, especially since it doesn't sound like you know what you are doing. As MetheGelfling has already said it can become very dangerous.

Jiraiya: I know people who do both, however the bow hunters almost always take a sidearm with them because of the bears and other large cats in this area.

Gabriel! You furtive intruder... I knew it was you. If you have come to smite me, do it now... Or I shall strike thee down with a fury that burns with the heat of a thousand suns.

SEND THE CREATOR MY REGARDS.

Hold on, hold on

So these guys, they go HUNTING

But they're afraid they might run into something dangerous

So they bring weapons other than the ones they USE FOR HUNTING

Because those weapons are apparently not good for killing animals with, so:

Why hunt using those weapons in the first place?

Hint: It involves rolling D20s!

Genetically engineered bears are the largest cats of them all.

(I quoted this from Manis Tricuspis's post... did you edit it out of a previous post or something?)

Anyway if you were trying to poke fun... meh. I think a sidearm when bowhunting is a good enough idea in a dangerous area as I'm assuming yours is. … A bear would be too big/strong to take down without a strong bow and arrows made for the job, and wildcats would be too quick for most people. Hunting is different from being suddenly ambushed by a predator. ;)

So which is it? Handguns are pointless as you said earlier in this thread or as you just stated (completely contradicting yourself I might add) that a sidearm is good defensive tool used while hunting?

I'm not really sure I would want to try and hunt a large brown bear with a bow. Seems rather ineffective to hunt an animal that can take three .45 rounds and still keep coming at you.

I own a .22 semi auto...but it's more of a showcase type since it's 70 years old. I have experience was .45's, .357's (both revolver and semi-auto types), and have practiced with various rifles before.

What kind of actual gun would I like? Not sure, to be honest :p I'm more happy with semi-auto's than revolvers though.

It is possible to increase a powder charge to get a little more power out of your rounds. However, its a very bad idea. More powder means more pressure, and if you're putting your gun under more pressure than it was designed to handle, you run the risk of blowing it up, along with your hands.

That said, I use SLIGHTLY beefed up rounds in my Makarov. I've modified the gun however, so it handles them well. I'm using an extra-strong recoil spring. I use 95gr Hornady XTP bullets and "Bullseye" gunpowder. Here are some stats:

Normal Pressure 9X18 Makarov loading: 3.6gr of powder, 975 FPS

My +P 9X18 loading: 4.1gr of powder, 1040 FPS

Notice that my actualy velocity gain isn't that much compared to how much extra power I had to use. A 13% increase in powder only gave me a 6% increase in velocity...

Anyway... Yesterday morning I went target shooting with my dad. I shot is .45 ACP 1911 for the first time in many years. Now I want a 1911 even more... I think I'd rather have the .38 Super version, but .45 ACP is a great round too.

I never realized it before, but the 1911's recoil has a very different feel to it than my Makarovs recoil. I believe this is because the 1911 is a locked breech design while the Makarov is a straight blow-back design. The Makarov doesn't "Kick" as much, but it feels like it flops around in your hand alot more...

What the shit? I concede a point to you and this is how you thank me? Go fuck yourself, Bubba.

No you probably wouldn't. You don't have the patience or the skill, being the clubfooted, hamfisted gun-waving retard that you are.

Lay some bait and wait until he's laying down by the bait, then shoot him behind the shoulder. That's how you hunt bear.

It's not the gun that's ineffective, it's the untrained and uneducated shooter who's holding it.

It is POSSIBLE to kill an elefant with a .22

That doesn't mean its the prefered way hunt one...

I might understand using a bow to hunt smaller bear like Black bear... but you'd have to be nuts to go after brown or grizzly bear with a bow...

Nah.

http://www.bowhunts.com/grizzly.html

With a 70# bow or better, using broadheads like Zwickeys', you're set.

Thanks, Gumby, I'm not gonna add any more powder, but I was curious about it.

Whatup, Manis? How ya feel?

Untrained? Your a joke Arrowhead. I am exceptionally trained in the use of a firearm both through personal use of gun, gun safety training, and the fine training provided by this great nations military.

What I can see from your line of thought is this, you're a snob Arrowhead. You think because you spend time to learn a skill that you are better than those who choose a more effective way to hunting which you may not realize takes a whole new set of skills to properly use. This is not to say I am against bow hunting as I do love archery but for the purpose of hunting, home defense, and weapons of war a firearm out matches a bow and arrow in every aspect except sound but even that can compensated for.

Canada allows shotguns doesn't it? Have you ever been skeet shooting? That is fun. Then again from the sound of it you probably enjoy the hunt just as much as the act of shooting the animal.

Ok no more arguing about bow vs gun, this isn't the point of this thread. If you would like to continue to debate this, take it up with me in PM.

Darkk Child: Yeah my grandfather reloads ammo all the time, but you got to beware of hot boxing rounds that shouldn't be. Particularly if your gun isn't rated to handle that sort of ammo.

David4516: I'm with you, I don't plan on hunting a bear with a bow anytime soon. Besides the fact that I don't like the taste of bear meat. I think I will stick to deer and elk.

Stalking an animal and placing one good shot to take it down unawares is totally different from being attacked by it and having to fend it off in a panic.

Double Post:
Where did I call you personally untrained? Duh, I didn't. You're just blowing hot air now.

I'm the snob? You're the one who thinks the rest of us are jealous of you for owning firearms.

Well actually, at close range (which is how a bow is used in hunting), I'd expect that an arrow is every bit as devastating as a bullet, if not more. Of course it all depends on what calibre/type of bullet and firearm you're comparing to what arrow/head and bow.

As for "home defense", I stand firm in my belief that a firearm makes a home less safe, not more. Obviously someone with responsibility and extensive training like yourself can be trusted, but you're the exception rather than the rule. As for war, of course the firearm is superior to the bow, heh.

As for skeet shooting, sounds like fun.

As for hunting... Actually, I haven't been hunting yet. More than anything, I just don't have the money for the bow, arrows and license that I'd need. And with the bow I use right now, I'm not so sure that I could pass the test.

Nah, I think I've said my piece. I'll leave you with this, though: drop your guns and practice archery exclusively for a year or two, and you'll have a whole new appreciation for your guns when you pick 'em up again.

Shame. It's about as good a trophy as you can get. But I admire you for not hunting just for a trophy.

I believe because of the velocity of the bullet that it actually has a higher KJ of impact energy. Don't quote me on that though.

I agree that having guns in everyone's home is not the best idea, some just aren't responsible to operate a gun safely, the same can be said about cars :/. However everyone that I know who keeps firearms in their homes are people who are very safe with guns, not bumbling idiots that shoot everything in sight.

Yeah I hunt for meat, when I take down an animal I want to eat it not stick it up on my wall. I've never actually been bow hunting but the last time I used a bow I probably needed another 3 months of practice before I'd be ready to hunt with a bow. That was a few years ago.

While I'd love to put down a gun for a year or two just to use a bow but I can't. I'll be needing a rifle in less than a year when I get deployed.

Hehe, true... but I'd like to think that cars are a lot more useful than firearms. Unless the world ends and we all have to go back to hunting and fighting each other over food......

That's kind of a black-and-white comparison, don'tcha think? ;)

Sheeit. :| Well, come back alive, bro. :)

On a sidenote, since we're talking about weapons...

Are telescopic baton worth anything?

I don't have the means to bu a 400$ gun along with the ammo and permit so I was wondering if such a baton would be helpful? Or just plain waste of money?

Yes, these situations are totally different in one major respect:

Situation B is not for pussies. "Our weapons are useless, of course, in the event that the animals actually notice us."

Well this is more of a firearms discussion... but you know you can get a Hi-Point pistol for about 100 dollars? A baton is more useful over say a bat because it is easier to conceal. However I don't know the laws of where you are so I don't suggest you hide this weapon on your person until you find out the specifics.

The real question is why do you need or want a baton?

Just remember that before you plan to use ANY type of weapon for self defense, you need to know how to properly use the thing.

Learning a Martial art is also a good idea...

And if you're looking for a cheap handgun that works well, get a Makarov, not a High-Point...

High-Point from what I can gather is not a bad handgun, basic and ugly but other than that I can't find any fault with them. They have gotten a bad name from improper stacking of the bullets in the magazine which will case a jam, simply smack the magazine hard once so the bullets are seated properly and you will have no problem with them. Beside Hi-Point is about 1/2 the price of a Makarov.

If you can muster about 350USD Luger's P90, P95, and P97 all offer VERY reliable handguns for a good price.

I agree with David on that though, you really need to know how to use a baton before you decide to carry one.

Gumby, not 2 days ago I saw a Makarov in a gun shop for $140

I cannot stress enough how much gun you're getting for such a low price. It's a solid, combat tested pistol. Having shot several of them (in both 9X18 and .380 calibers), and owning one myself, I can honestly say I've NEVER seen one jam (I've fired at least 2,000 rounds in my own personal Makarov, jam-free). And thats with several different types of ammo, including my own home-made stuff.

The high point, on the other hand, is a boat anchor. They're freaking HUGE. Size does matter when you're talking about a carry gun. I've actually fired both guns, and trust me, the Makarov is far superior...

Also, it's RUGER, not LUGER, LOL. I have no "hands on" experiance with Ruger handguns, but I love their rifles. If their handguns are anything like the rifles, then I wouldn't hesitate to recomend one.

Huh, was it used? The cheapest I've seen one go for was about 200. I'll have to look into those a little more. I do agree though, Hi-Points are large and ugly but they are of fairly sturdy construction. Good for plinking if nothing else.

Have you ever had the chance to fire a Luger P90? I've got my eye on a really nice one but I would like to hear about someones personal experience with said gun. As for the 2k rounds, I'd expect any decent pistol to be able to do that without a problem. I've heard of some pistols going through 20,000 rounds with almost no reduction in accuracy.

I've also heard good things about Walther PPK/S .380 from my grandfather who carries one with him at all times.

Like I said in my last post, I have not actually fired a RUGER (not Luger) pistol.

As for the Makarov being used, all Makarovs are used, they're millitary surplus after all. The one I got was about $130, and was in nearly-new condition, it looked like it had only been fired a few times.

About the PPK, the PPK and the Makarov are VERY similar. The design is almost exactly the same, the main differances being that the Makarov is slightly larger, both in size and caliber, and their safteys work differently. Either one would be a good choice IMHO.

I think the High-Point would be a great gun for someone who is mainly interesting in plinking and is on a budget. I just wouldn't personaly trust my life to one in self-defense situation.

Mainly because I don't have the means for a firearms, less the desire to own one and not willing to get the permit/license for one. And I wouldn't trust myself with one... I'd probably shoot myself in the foot.

A baton seems safer, easier to carry/conceal and cheaper for my needs when I walk either on campus or anywhere else.

I don't own a gun, but my husband would love to own one. I think here it is legal to carry a concealed weapon as long as you have the right license or permit or something. I am really not sure. I'm not into guns, myself...

:cow:

lol I was really tired when I typed that. Yeah Ruger not Luger lol.

I agree with you, I wouldn't use one to carry but I'm sure they are great to learn on especially when you are trying to teach someone the basics of gun safety. I really wouldn't want to put a 1000 dollar pistol in the hands of some who has never fired one and might possibly drop it.

Here in California, I believe that it is legal to carry a concealed pistol as long as you carry a concealed weapon permit along with your license for you gun. I have a friend who has one, or at least that's what I understand. I don't know specifics myself either because I never did get the urge to carry the weapon on me anyway. I think that's where the permit comes in.

Thats true for most states, not positive but here in NY I think just a pistol liscense is needed for a concealed weapon. But with a leaniant law like that no wonder the minimum sentance for possession of a pistol without a liscense is 5 years.

PS: Here on GFF I read the article about the dude who blew his hand off with a 40mm round and I know this should belong in that thread but this is firearms so...anyways. It says the man found it hunting, I dont know who hunts with a 40mm round or leaves one in the woods but anyways IF the man is a hunter, wouldnt he realize something like that would be live? If you shake it you can hear the gunpowder, I wouldnt mess with it.

Well, 40mm = 1½". I'm guessing those woods border on some military training grounds.

Oh, here's something interesting... MK19. Seems 40mm rounds in general are more like grenades than bullets, owing to their use against aircraft...

[Edit]Er wait... 40mm rounds are the grenades used on modern assault rifles like the M209...[/Edit]

There is a reason why you shouldn't play with things you don't know about... I wouldn't want a 40mm round that I found out in the woods anywhere near me. He should have at least had the smarts to make sure that it wasn't a live round.

I was actually told by my friend (the same one with the concealed weapons permit) that he's not allowed to carry his weapon in NY because of that permit. I was under the impression that concealed weapons were a no-no out there, period.

Maybe I misunderstood him. :confused:

Encephalon have you ever considered getting a CHL?

Some pics I took on my shooting trip last sunday:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...6/IMG_0135.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...6/IMG_0143.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...6/IMG_0148.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...6/IMG_0150.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y12...6/IMG_0154.jpg

Wow, I just noticed that my sweater makes me look really fat :p

I love my guns.. and i love shooting them :D. Since I live out in the sticks (Arkansas) I have my share of hunting guns. Ya know 12 Gauge Shotty, 22, 270. Then we have my fun guns. .44 Magnum Desert Eagle, Thompson, an old winchester 6 shooter. Then I ussually go to my buds bosses house to shoot also (He's the sherif around here and is packing major shit) Dragunov SVD Sniper Rifle, M16 Carbine, Ak,HK MP-5KA4. Then he has some grenades that we were playing around with the other day.. but i'm not to sure if thats legal..a roudn here.

The closeup of the target... which one were you shooting that time?

Well, no. Although I'm not really an advocate against them either. I just never carry my weapons on me for what I would consider self defense.

This friend of mine who carries these permits for these weapons has them because owning a couple of jewelry stores has its share of problems. Getting robbed is one of them. While he understands that having a weapon handy won't guarantee avoiding a robbery, it sure as hell improves his and his family's chances of being legally able to guard his stores in case of one.

In short: I guess I really don't see a need for one in my case.

The 7.5X55 Swiss rifle (the one with the straight-pull bolt action).

They hit a bit high, but if I had been shooting at a target a bit farther away they would have hit dead-on...