Top Down Shooters: A Lost Gaming Art Form
 

You know, in terms of my gaming interests I've always strictly been an rpg player, but with me and a few friends back home seriously thinking of opening a retro arcade it made me think of some of my favourite games that I use to play when I use to go to the arcades religiously as a teenager.

One of my favourite games to play were always the top down shooters, because I always found them ridicously hard and I use to dump so many quarters just trying to finish one due to avoiding so many bullets being shot at from every possible direction at a ridicously fast speed.

I guess my interest for these type of games was rekindled when I use to travel back and forth between my job and I seen a lot of these kind of games at the airport and while waiting for my flights I use to play them all the time and they're still as difficult now as what they were when I played them as a teenager.

These days with games being very story driven, I just don't see much of this game style anymore. I know there is not much you can really do with these types of games since they tend to be very linear and very straight forward, but there is a hidden nostalgia I like about them and they're difficulty and I always liked that some of these games actually had some amazing soundtracks.

Some of the recent ones that I've played for consoles is Raiden III, and Castle Shikigami 2. I would really like to get a chance to play Ikaruga even though I know that game will probably rape my soul in more ways than one. I remember watching someone play Ikaruga for the first time and it absolutely amazed me of how utterly beautiful that game looked with its background graphics and the music was almost heavenly.

So to the gamingforce community, I would like to ask if you are a fan of these type of games and what do you like the most about them and do you think they can still still do something fresh with that genre of game to make it survive.

I would generally like to see more of those games come out but I don't see them being popular anymore. I am going to try my best to play them as much as possible if any do come out. I even still enjoy playing the horizontal shooters such as Gradius, R-Type, and UN Squadron. I hope to get a chance to play Radiant Silvergun someday even though I kow its one of the rarest games to own.

Raiden was always a bit too hard for me (really I felt like it was just a waste of quarters) but I played 19XX religiously, and finding MAME later on got me interested in a lot of the shooters that never made it to the states, like Do Don Pachi and Hotdog Storm.

I really like Ikaruga, but it's a shame it's on gamecube, since I traded it in a while back. I kept the game itself, since I plan on eventually getting a Wii, but most of my games are centered around playstation hardware, so it's just kinda inconvenient to have to switch systems.

It really is sad that these types of games don't see much play anymore. It's kinda like Symphony of the Night. Fantastic game, but no other developer thought that 2d was a winning formula except Capcom themselves.

This was a genre while perhaps not live with color, still had a faint pulse on the PS2. With games like Sylpheed, R-Type, Gradius, Raiden there was a decent amount to keep a fan of the genre satisfied from time to time.

My hopes now that online arcade style games are being made and sold on the 360 & PS3 that perhaps the shooter genre will somehow manage to hone this potential and come out with some good follow ups. It's the perfect medium for the genre to carry on in this generation.

@Skexis
I don't know if you do or plan on getting a 360 (doesn't really sound like it), but Treasure did say at one point that they were bringing Ikaruga to the 360 live arcade. Perhaps it'll come to the PSN someday too. Never know.

Like 2D fighters, this is a genre I enjoy but am completely useless at. The PAL world has been pretty kind to the PS2, I've picked up stuff like Samurai Aces, XII Stag, Gunbird Special Edition, 1945 1 & 2, and Sonic Wings Special (PSone but it came out in 2004 so lolol) real cheap. Most pre-owned, I guess Australian's would get confused by the cover for Samurai Aces and such.

"THIS AIN'T NO FLAMIN' V8 SUPERCARS"
"Well it's not supposed to be, why would it be a V8 Superca-"
"STRUTH"

One day I might be able to beat a shooter on a decent difficulty level. One day! My favorite top down shooter is River Raid, does that even count? It should. Because it's River Raid. DON'T SHOOT THE FUEL CONTAINERS!

No, they didn't.

Something by the name of Ikaruga appeared on Partnernet for a fucking day. There was no content whatsoever, of any kind, under that entry. Just a name. Partnernet has given birth to too many rumours to trust this shit based on that.

They HAVE said they WANT to work on the arcade, but have not announced anything, be it original content or a port.

This false information needs to be stopped. I am sick of seeing it.

What the arcade IS getting is a port of Trigger Heart Exelica, which is top down, and Omega Five, something original from Hudson and Natsume, which is horizontal.

Ah, I see, too bad, would have been fun to have done co-op over LIVE in Ikaruga.

(PM sent to 2401)

If you like top down shooters... try out an online game called infantry online. It still has a decent population in the present to support some fun games and action.

In before Touhou.

Ugh, Touhou. I nearly lost a close friend over that moronic game.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of SHMUPS, I just hate how every single top-down shooter made these days has to be a bullet hell, and in SHMUP communities you have to play them otherwise people think you're a weak little pansy who can't handle the spiciness of true challenge. The main problem with bullet hells is that they're less about strategically finding weak spots to shoot stuff and more about just surviving past a certain time limit, at which point the boss or whatever will be destroyed and you can move on. I'm just tired of seeing them. I firmly believe games like this can be challenging without being bullet hells; look at the Raiden series, for example. The main catch in that game is that your ship is extremely slow and you have to watch out for several targets that fire short-but-wide bursts of bullets, even during boss battles, instead of one single target that utterly covers the screen with bullets.

It's made even worse when that single target is a sappy, emotional and annoying loli anime girl. Rated U for "Ugh".

That and developers aren't retarded. They know the value of Ikaruga (I paid 30 bucks for it used last month) and that simply re-releasing the game would net vastly more profit. Those who never got a copy of the game would be able to finally get it. This is like saying Chrono Trigger is being released on the Wii's Virtual Console. Shut up.

I personally absolutely adore shmups even though I'm not that great at them, and I even work with an indie crew on one or two of them. (SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION LOLZ :tpg: ) Shmups are far from dead, aside from the obvious Touhou fanaticism, there's a lot of cool developers doing them still. Cave is the most obvious example, and also by far the best. Treasure also still makes them, and there are certainly others. It's still a vibrant genre in Japan as you would expect... somehow.

The indie shmup scene is very much into these kinda "modern-classic" top down shooters, more along the lines of Geowars than Progear. I think that's kind of a shame, because I like pixel art and 90s cocksure synthy game music. But there are a lot of gems there, too.

Anyway at the latest Comiket there was an incredible new release called Trouble Witches. This is a very professional-looking game, even featuring voice acting and everything, and it's not just a bullet hell shooter. I really love this game. <3

As far as I know, most top down shooters I've seen always ARE Touhou/Bullet Hell, or if you want to get proper... have a lot of shit going on the screen and more bullets than you'd normally expect. Though you can play Salamander 2 on Hard Mode and get to the asteroid field, that's always a laugh for horizontal bullets. I like the shoot em up genre, but I have a softer spot in my heart for the horizontal rather than vertical scrolling shooters. Raiden DX, ESP Ra.De, and Chaos Field are probably my favorite top down shooters. Mostly because I actually bothered trying to become proficient at them. I think in the end, you can't really argue for or against Horizontal and Vertical as far as gameplay goes. Because, for the most part, you're memorizing bullet patterns or ship placement so the level doesn't crush you.

"Classic" type shmups are every bit as much about memorization as "bullet hell" types, though. The former typically requires you to memorize what enemy pattern or giant attack is coming next, so you can avoid it in advance before it flies straight into you. A lot of those bosses tend to give you very little warning before their giant laser beams of death, which comes across to me as exceedingly cheap.

Taking your example, it sounds like the main survival strategy in Raiden is simply knowing in advance where to put your ponderous ship, since your slow speed precludes dodging those wide, short bursts if you don't know they're coming. It's more about rote memorization than flying skill.

This would be why a lot of people consider those massive bullet spread games to require more skill. You may very well know what's coming, but it's not just a matter of parking your ship in the right spot ahead of time; you still have to have the evasion skill to get through all that. And sometimes it really is kind of rough to safely land a hit on the boss.

Different strokes for different folks. I've personally come to really hate "traditional" horizontal shmups because of their infuriating habit of having enemies come at you from behind, where you can't shoot them at all.

@Monkey King
That's probably why R-Type is my favouriate horizontal shooter. Because it doesn't make you feel like an amputee against an endless army. It just makes you feel like a common robber with a 9mm trying to take on Fort Knox... just the way I like em.

I have to admit I also find myself liking horizontal more often than vertical, simply because nearly every vertical goes for the bullet hell route, with some small trick to its controls or scoring system in an attempt to set it apart from the rest.

Sometimes it works, Ikaruga was a brilliant reinvention, sometimes you're stuck with just one more complication to take into consideration as you try to survive. Other people love this, they like their brain overworked with reactions, memorisation and calculation, but for me 2D shooters have always been about atmosphere, visuals and setpieces. Tight controls are like a good battle system in RPGs, they get you where you're going, but they're not quite the focus for me.

On the visuals terms, much like 2D fighters, I like shmups a lot for the spritework and I'm usually terrible at them. Most of the 2.5D shmups being made these days don't appeal to me so much. The cell-shaded flash-game looks of the indie DC shooters of now look pretty awful to me and are a big turnoff for discovering what else is there.

Ikaruga and Gradius V did 3D in 2D masterfully, not forgetting to throw in a number of inspired and exciting setpieces, not to mention a great soundtrack. But in general I prefer the spritey look of Parodius, Raiden DX, Donpachi and the like.

I suppose I am a graphics whore of sorts as the visuals of Mars Matrix prevented me from really anjoying that game. Yes, the system is pretty neat and it's a really challenging title, but I just couldn't get into it. Radiant Silvergun on the other hand I adore. Superb visual identity, awesome soundtrack, excellent weapon system and more incredible setpieces than you can throw at an Indiana Jones movie. Not to mention it's expansive, inventive, extremely challenging, while still managing to be very welcoming, thanks to the statistics save function of the Saturn mode. Brilliant.

I really could not have put it better myself. I'd actually been musing about an element topic concerning 2D shooters, but it looks like I'll be getting sloppy seconds on this point. Great post.

I imagine if there were to be a discussion about memorable shooters, I don't think we'd be hearing about the scoring system of ESPGaluda or any other random bullet hell shoot em up. Granted, I think that's the big distinction between people who play solely for the game aspect and people who play games solely for the experience.

As pointed out already, the fun is in the balance of these two things. At least if you play games for more than just the game itself.

Because it isn't as if you can play for the experience and get much of one out of a shoot 'em up. It just wouldn't be very fun. I've talked to people who can't stand Gradius V because they jump in and realize that it is, apparently, time for them to get blown the fuck up. They miss out on things like "Space-Time Anomaly" or shooting through a Bacterion base at high speed. I will say that the game can be hard as shit without constant play. X-Play had it about on cue when it said that ship placement and memorization don't quite appeal to everyone.

One of my favorite series is Thunder Force, and that game is all about its continuity. It's what makes the series so exciting and memorable. If you play Thunder Force 4, there are huge references to Thunder Force 3. Boss upgrades, a break from the action where Fire-Leo 03 Styx ships from Thunder Force 3 upgrade your ship after you and a fleet of them fail to destroy the enemy's giant mecha craft. In Thunder Force V, you actually get to fight the ship from Thunder Force 4 (the one in my sig and avatar, not so coincidentally). When music and level design and gameplay come together, it's magic.

You can describe these moments with words all day, but again, the experience is really where it's at.

It's funny how most of the points I tried to make about Ikaruga were lost in the other thread and reappear in here. Sure, I exaggerated by referring to it as "bullet hell", but I made points about memorisation that went unnoticed. Overall, you seem to share the same opinions about shooters as I do. I could have phrased it a hell of a lot better, but my focus really wasn't on discussing shmups in general.

I guess I just wanted to say that I like "shooters with atmosphere" better than those that rely on memorisation. The Gradius games always did it for me, especially "Gradius Gaiden", where the atmospheric experience itself, and the nostalgia, is more important than earning the top score.

If all that was what you wanted to say, then that's what you should have focused on saying. Instead of using a hyperbole that went over most everyone's head, including yours I think. Leave that shit in the other thread, dude, please.

My issue really wasn't that you don't enjoy playing Ikaruga (or any other game). I simply disagree with you that that somehow makes it a bad game. You said quality is subjective, when I felt it's the opposite. I can easily tell that Porco Rosso is Hayao Miyazaki's finest film, while Laputa remains my personal favorite. I enjoy playing Tenchu: Fatal Shadows a lot, but I could never say it's a good game, qualitywise. You see this distinction of assessing merit objectively as opposed to only subjectively?

Similarly, while I no longer enjoy playing Ikaruga (as I played it far too much), I could never deny that it is a fantastic piece of work and a superb overhaul of shooter conventions, much like something like Halo was with FPS games.



On the subject of gushing, Radiant Silvergun was indeed a revelation for me when I finally got to play it.

It is a massive shame it's such a notoriously high-priced game, because that always overshadows what an amazing videogame it is in its own right. It produced absolutely amazing visuals on hardware you wouldn't think possible on (barring Panzer Dragoon Saga perhaps). It completely reworked the weapon powerup system (as later did Ikaruga) and played with structure and chronology in a genre where experimentation was usually strictly limited to gameplay. Hitoshi Sakimoto's rousing score, the juxtaposition of the colorful and cheery characters and the bleak world and story (similar to FF6 for me), and the masses of breathtaking and brilliant setpieces, both in levels and boss fights. Penta will probably forever remain my favorite boss fight ever, the delivery was simply peerless.

Not only was the weapons powered up through use, RPG-style, but dying and restarting the game with your new stats in Saturn mode was akin to grinding for experience and levels in RPGs as well. It allowed for the game to be satisfyingly challenging for the people who didn't want to use the save system (by allowing them a simple choice of whether to save or not, instead of doing it for them), and for lower skilled people to get further and further in the game with each reload, if they so wished, without any need to fiddle with actual difficulty levels. It allowed for easier access to the game and easier learning of the levels for more skilled play later on. I can not think of a more excellent system for a shooter of this calibre.

Granted, playing without the save system, the game can be merciless if you don't know when and how to milk the score system to boost your weapons. Many complained you simply won't be powerful enough to beat the later bosses. The game doesn't really punish you for not beating the bosses within their time limits though, so I don't see it as a flaw. If you want high scores, you need to be good and know things inside out, and this is no different from any other shmup. If you want to learn, the game will teach you. If you just want to play, you can do that, without feeling like you're not getting the whole game (as with easier difficulty settings sometimes).

That's because, much like its spiritual sequel, Radiant Silvergun is one of the best games ever created. It's too bad that it's also one of the hardest games I've ever played because I've never seen an ending for it. :(

Uh, no you don't. A person who likes shooters shouldn't provoke others who don't like certain types of shooters just because they don't play them - that's stupid. I play Pop'n, but not IIDX, although they're both in the same genre, and I don't get provoked because of it.

Also I'm guessing you haven't played dodonpachi daioujou, which REQUIRES you to know weak spots as well as dodging curtain fire plus chaining for lives you're going to be needing on stage 5.

Also wrong again, touhou isn't about waiting for spell cards to time out. They have a life bar, and you have to bring it down. If the card times out, you lose faith/points/cherry/whatever and you don't capture that card. It's called failing.

Although there's some spell cards which require you to wait for the timer to run out, yes, but they're rare. You mostly won't see them in the main story but probably in Extra mode. They're called "survival spellcards". Also, you fail those if you bomb or die.

Also, bullet hell pretty much revived the genre.



As for the topic, I'm pretty big on shmups myself. Best genre ever, favorite genre too and I love it. Bullet hell is great fun if you understand it and if you can read bullet patterns. Not so much if you can't. I tried getting into Psikyo shooters which are okay but they're really not my sort of thing.

I really liked Raiden DX but Raiden 3 was disappointing, so I don't care for IV. I own a few horizontal shooters like Gradius V and yeah they're okay, but I still prefer vertical ones.

I'll play most CAVE games and doujin shmups in general if I'm given the chance. I own 3/4 of the PS2 CAVE shooters and 3/4 danmaku touhou shooters. I think they were extremely good value for money.

I'd still argue that the "other" kind of shooters require way more memorization than "bullet hell". If you don't know what giant assfuck attack is coming when the boss waves his claws around in circles, there's still the chance that you can pull through by the skin of your teeth with some fancy flying. I like that a lot better than SURPRISE SCREEN-FILLING LASER BEAM, if for nothing else than the illusion that I have a prayer.

I do dig neat atmosphere in a game, of course. Darius Gaiden is one of the ones I've been having fun flying through. I still find it irritating how the game is also a cheap son of a bitch, even though MAME means never having to spend real quarters. Do the two really have to be mutually exclusive with one another, though? Maybe it's just a matter of pacing.

Also, Qwarky is dead on about the games' individual gimmicks varying wildly. Sometimes it's neat, and sometimes it's Guwange with its stupidly cumbersome spirit bomber thingy. Some bullet hell games are just not fun, whether you like the genre or not.

One of the issues I've always had with R-Type games is how they truly represent the memorisation spectrum of shooters. Not so much in Final, but especially the first two games were downright painful unless you knew the levels inside out. Bullets and enemies appear from the top and bottom of the screen, combined with the ship's slow movement speed made for a lot of frustration when dying. I blamed the game more than myself, which never happens with most (good) shmups I play these days.

That said, R-Type is a veritable classic and I happily love and hate it. Lovely spritework too. Final is an amazing experience too, very high up with atmospheric shooters.

Darius Gaiden is another favorite of mine, even if most of the later bosses just make you go :tpg:

Actually, if they took the River Raid concept of "refueling" and placed it in a modern schmup like, say, R-type Final for example my brain would probably explode. I absolutely cannot imagine having to dodge all those bullets/enemies/explosions and have to worry about refueling...

This is a really good point. I find it incredibly frustrating when a game just traps me in this mess of bullets and there's nothing I can do to get out (except bomb), or when the movement of the ship is slow enough that I can't seem to dodge stuff in time (or so fast that I can't properly steer in between streams of bullets, that's super annoying too).

I think that Cave generally gets this balance really well, games like Progear and Dodonpachi may throw a lot of bullets, but I always feel like my death was my own fault due to incompetence, rather than the game being cheap.

Actually, Raiden doesn't really depend heavily on memorization (or at least, not the ones I play). You can do a pretty good job at shooting the targets to smithereens before they open fire, you just have to remain really vigilant to see which targets come on screen, then shoot at them as soon as you see them. For example, once you see a vulcan turret or something, it starts rotating, and you're able to shoot it down before it makes your life miserable.


No, it wasn't because I don't play/like bullet hells, it was just because... it's Touhou. My friend's idiotic narutard-esque fanboyism of that game was reaching critical levels and I just couldn't take it anymore. I wanted to remain friends.

Really? :eye: Yeah, I haven't played that game, and I've been meaning to, but from what the videos seen the bosses have no weak points. You just shoot at their huge bodies endlessly until they die. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that was the essence of bosses in bullet hells and CAVE games.

It depends on the boss itself. Like, for stage 1 of daioujou, weakening either left or right cannon until it's blinking red and killing it when it begins to rotate will drop two hypers instead of one. Although this increases the rank significantly and the first boss becomes quite hard.

On stage 4, bombing when the little spinny things all close in together (provided you're in the middle) will most definitely finish the boss off.

There's also stuff for other CAVE games, like Mushihime, where leaving the feet of the stage 2 boss but still killing it will rack up heaps of points, but it also makes killing it harder. There's times where you'd have to dodge without shooting to pull this off (and it's much harder if you're using W-power).

TGS says hi

So, Ikaruga has finally been confirmed. No more baseless rumours, no more wild guestimates from Partnernet, no more ambigious wording from old Treasure interviews. No NOTHING. Am I surprised? Not entirely. Good, though.

Ikaruga (And Rez, awesome), are coming to Live arcade. This puts this topic officially to rest.

I told you so.

Also from that article:

heh viva pinata sequel

Shikigami no Shiro III's coming to 360 and Wii. I have Shikigami no Shiro II for Gamecube (Limited Edition with cat figure) and it's a lot of fun. The game feels very polished from the Dreamcast version.

I tried Shikigami no Shiro III for PC in October last year, but eh, it's very graphic intensive and I couldn't run it (funny how touhou is fine for me though).

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2...2siki06ho5.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3...2siki05dh1.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/5...2siki03we4.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3...2siki01ae9.jpg

I might buy it for Wii since I have the VC controller. I don't like the 360's dpad (no one likes the 360's dpad).

I never said it wasn't coming, I was saying we shouldn't trust Partnernet as a source when it's not always been reliable. But hey, I knew either you or Slayer would pipe up with something like that before long.

Anyway, if they bring Shiro over, I'd be happy. Do it as Mobile Fucking Light Force 3 if you have to, but damn.

Just thought I'd throw this in for thoes interested. It's Screw Attack's top 10 2D shooters countdown. MAn I TOTALLY forgot about Raptor, I know I've got it around here somewhere cause I want to play it again now. lol

Gametrailers.com - ScrewAttack, Top Ten 2-D Shooters

Wow that isn't worth watching. Not a single CAVE game mentioned, Raiden wasn't mentioned, and they actually mocked bullet hell shooters because "they actually like shooters where you can move."

I guess they haven't actually played through their precious #2 Ikaruga, then.

I realize that no one's list of whatever is going to match, but some of their comments are just brazenly stupid. That's every show on gaming I watch, though. I'm hoping one day I can watch a program and not feel insulted most of the time. OUTSPONDEDAlso, Elixir can catch the Touhou jab at the Ikaruga section of the feature if he wants to endure the torture./OUTSPONDED

Face value, there were some nice choices. Axelay and Raptor... the rest of it just seems like classic oversight. Somehow I wasn't so surprised when Area 88/UN Squadron topped the list.

It's not a touhou jab, it's a CAVE jab. They show a quick piece of fighting Hibachi (first form) in stage 5 of dodonpachi daioujou. First bullet pattern. Probably the easiest part of the whole boss too.

It's a broad sweeping comment-- and you want to get particular about the game in the screen shot they use just to disagree. I'm not going to ask if you're a faggot, Elixir. So, it is definitely JUST about Cave and not the style of gameplay involved in those types of shooters. Thank you.

Considering all their picks are (mostly) mainstream, I highly doubt they even know touhou exists. CAVE are the only ones who still make bullet hell shooters for consoles. It's also very contradictory, seeing as how Ikaruga has about as much "ship movement" in stage 4 and 5 as the one they showed. And just as many bullets.

Even so it's unlikely they'd include a doujin shmup in their list of top 10 shooters.

Good to know you and them share the same train of thought. "It has lots of bullets! Let's show a clip of something with a lot of bullets!"

Nice edit, Elixir. "Fucking moron", was it? Did it happen again as I type this?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. Sort of. Elixir, when they mention "I'd rather move in my shooters", it isn't targeting just "CAVE." There are other games that PLAY like that, it doesn't matter if they've only played ONE. Even if they don't know others exist, that's what being "brazenly stupid" is. Sort of like what you're doing right now. Let me continue, like you or anyone else have a choice until a mod says otherwise.

I really just have to ask, why? Why do you insist on being the reason being a gamer is synonymous with "worthless?" They, ScrewAttack, mentioned that UN Squadron was better than the arcade counterpart, which shows that they probably played Area 88 in the Arcades or at least knew about it. Of course their picks are mainstream, but I'm sure they at least attempted homework and as "gamers" they say they are, they have jumped into the little internet machine you have. Information and knowledge isn't special if you're the only person that knows about it, and your assumption you do is a pretty large display of your lack of character. Yes, Elixir, this is a lecture now. I am great at them, and you're probably going to be great at trying to trade blows instead. I thank you in advance, but I'll do it anyway.

I don't know if you seem to think that your cataloged set of gaming information is a mystery to anyone but you, it sure does seem that way. Just so you know, it's not.

Again, I know you just have to try and get the last word. That's really the issue here. Who wants to discuss with you when you're so busy hogging the baton in the retard relay? Your word filter isn't because people find you amusing, it's because you're obnoxious and you do this to topics and discussions that could be about learning without the bullshit. Interactions that could be about discourse rather than "I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE NOT."

Is that what you want? Don't answer. Rhetorical.

I've learned nothing from you. And apparently, you've learned nothing at all from our previous little encounters. This is sad, Elixir. I really don't enjoy this, there's nothing I can do or say to you that you aren't already doing to yourself. ScrewAttack? As mainstream as they are? They are successful in being consistently accessible. That's the difference between them and you. Between you and myself. Again, thanks for nothing, Elixir.

Quite frankly all I've seen from you is constant confrontations in every thread you enter because it's obviously a great way of building character, post count, and a face all at once.

Kid. I don't come on these forums to be ridiculed constantly by some jumped up little shit who thinks he knows it all. If I wanted a "learning" thread, I'd visit wikipedia. No, like most people, I visit gamingforce because gamingforce is for amusing fun times! And bunny rabbits and kawaii rainbows and monkies of the infernal kind and such, not shit. Gotta educate myself after a hard day of work. New game? Fuck yeah, ESSAY TIME ON SAID NEW GAME.

Nobody's forcing you to respond to this thread at all. Nobody is forcing you to read anything and of course nobody's mature enough to lecture someone over PM instead of on the forum, kind of like 90% of your unnecessary response.


Fact here is that, they're saying their second favourite shooting game is Ikaruga which requires precise movement and knowledge of the stages, yet they're ratting on bullet hell shooters although they are the exact same damn thing. Now, I don't care if they used CAVE as an example or not. The lack of any CAVE games whatsoever in their list is a little suspicious. I mean really, no CAVE shooters at all? It's not like every single CAVE game ever produced which is a shooter is bullet hell. No.

In an case their list sucked, Tyrian didn't get a mention. Or Raiden /II/DX. Or Radiant Silvergun.

Just to prove you're both up your own asses, it was a jab at bullet hell shooters in general as opposed to Cave or touhou. Both of those are just as specific, so shut up already.

I've always liked these kind of games despite if they were bullt hell games or not. I guess one of the biggest reasons why I love these style of games is that out of all the games that I do play there are not very many games that give you that WTF????????? feeling.

I haven't played many of the strictly japanese top down shooters, and its a game style I've only recently got into but I love it in these games when your fighting a boss and he/she throws this bullet hell move, and the first thought that comes into your mind in a split second is How In The Hell Am I Suppose To Dodge This. There aren't many games that give me that same kind of feeling anymore. Throughout the mass amount of bullets you can't help but wonder and be amazed of how colourful it looks and it just gives you the immediate feeling of frustration.

I'll probably end up giving a poor example:

Ever since I got Castle Shikigami 2 I've been whoring out that game as much as possible just to get all the endings and open up all the artwork. The first boss for World 5, I think his name is Shin. This boss still frustrates me to this very day. He throws this one move at you, when you almost have his life bar depleted. That he throws all these red and green arrow projectiles and totally fill up the entire screen in every direction and it gives me that WTF satisfaction. I just look in utter amazement and say there is no way I can dodge that and amazingly enough I manage to dodge it on a very rare occassion.

I'm sure Touhou and other vertical/horizontal games probably have worse bullet hells than that game, but I kind of love that unexpected satisfaction when you don't know what kind of bullet pattern the boss is going to throw at you. The more insane the bullet hell is, the more I'm satisfied and frsutrated all at the same time.