I dont know what church you're attending, but I think you're making gross generalizations based on your own denomonational teachings.

I was part of the Catholic church for many years. They didn't tell us to push our shit on other people.

If you guys want to get all touchy-feely with your Lord and Savior, go for it. But don't preach to us about it.

I'm Lutheran, and we're not taught to PUSH our "shit" on anyone. There's a huge difference between pushing and gently suggesting when God gives you an opening to do so.

I know Catholics, madam. Plenty of them. And I can tell you that you must have fallen asleep during the part where they told you that it is your responsibility to try to bring others to Christ.

Catholics don't tell you anything. I went to Catholic church for the better part of my life and no one even knew my name. Jesus actually said to spread the Gospel, though.

There are very few differences between Catholics and Lutherans (and Catholics and Episcopalians). I can't imagine that their teachings would be all that different.

EDIT: I just went down the hall and asked my Catholic friend about evangelism and she looked at me like I was crazy and told me in no uncertain terms that Catholics also believe it's the duty of all Christians to help other accept Jesus.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)

Alice.

How many of the population do YOU think doesn't know who Christ is.

If they wanted to live with Christ in their lives, they would.

I find it profoundly disrespectful when people think they need to inform others of "THE GREAT SUPER CHRIST." Maybe its me, but I see it as a form of condescension.

Human beings naturally think a lot about religion. It's in their nature. I expect people to form their own opinion about God, religion, and everything involved. I don't think its anyone's responsibility to push an agenda. You don't think its a little ODD that there's a built-in mechanism in your religion which makes it spread?

You know, like polygamy with the Mormons? Anything to get more supporters of a church.

And yea, I went to plenty of masses. And while a lot of them were given in LATIN, I think New England takes a different stand on religion than the South does.

Alice, the Bible says a lot of stupid things:
“If a woman grabs a man's privates during a fight, her hand is to be cut off. (Duet 25:11,12)”
- The eating of fat is prohibited forever. (Lev 3:17)
- You cannot round the corners of your beard or the hair on your temples. (Lev 19:27)
- Witches should be killed. (Ex 22:18)
- The congregation was to be a bastard free zone. The Bible was so dead set against bastards that their children, even to the tenth generation, could not enter the assembly of the Lord. (Duet 23:2) This is in keeping with God's principle of punishing children for the wrongdoings of their parents.
- Handicapped people could not approach God. Their presence would profane his sanctuary. (Lev 21:16-23) This scripture single-handedly offends almost every category of handicapped persons you can name. The blind, lame, injured, hunchbacks and dwarfs are specifically named. If anyone is left out, the catchall phrase "anyone with a blemish" is thrown in to cover them. I guess in Israel, the handicapped parking stalls were at the far end of the parking lot.
- Entrance into the assembly of the Lord was granted only to those with complete testicles. (Duet 23:1) Now, I will admit that keeping one's testicles in tact is a pursuit worthy of some attention, but I have to ask: What went on in the "assembly of the Lord" that required a complete and full set of testicles? And, since testicles are usually not on display, was there someone at the gate assigned to check?
- Anyone working on the Sabbath is to be killed. (Ex 35:2) This law was to protect the sanctity of Sunday afternoon football. Unfortunately, any player that touched the ball would have to be killed after the game, because he had touched a dead pig. (Lev 11:7,8) That would certainly make it easier to play defense.
- Menstruating women and everything they touch are unclean. The only cure for this uncleanness was for the priest to kill a couple of pigeons. (Lev 15:19-30) What could be more logical?
- If a couple has sex during the woman's period, the two are to be cut off from their people. (Lev 20:18) Once again, how would anyone know that this had happened? The couple is obviously not going to tell. Maybe the genital inspector from the temple made house calls.
- Women were officially second class citizens. They were considered possessions that were owned, (Prov 12:4) and were officially subordinate (1 Cor 14:33,34).
- Homosexual men were to be executed. (Lev 20:13) No mention is made of homosexual women.
- If a woman grabs a man's privates during a fight, her hand is to be cut off. (Duet 25:11,12) Now, is it really necessary to have this law on the books? You get the impression that the person who was writing the laws had recently experienced this and was still a little pissed off.
- False prophets are to be killed by their own parents. (Zech 13:3)
- Stubborn children were to be stoned, and the stoning was to be instigated by their parents. (Duet 21:18-21)
- And whatever you do, don't ever, ever, ever, pee against the wall (1 kings 16:11 KJV). OK, I know. The phrase "anyone who pees against the wall" is just a euphamism for men. I just couldn't resist this one.

Don't pick and chose.

I'm not saying they don't believe it. Just that most Catholics don't know what the hell they believe. Church is something they do on Easter to avoid pissing off their mother. I was a Catholic all my life, and it wasn't until I was 15 and decided to actually read the Bible that I knew anything. And I would go to church on a weekly basis. And took 2 years of CCD classes.


Okay Sass, that's great, but have you even read those books? I like how when people quote the "stupid things" the Bible says, they always look to the books that they have the smallest possibility of understanding.


By the way, nice cut and paste job.

http://www.liberator.net/articles/Ad...leJustice.html

I think I'll take that as a "no."

Yea, its nice to pick and chose things, right?

RIGHT.

I have read the goddamned Bible. Its really dry, really BORING, and really CONFUSED. I'm not a fan of it. It offers some good moral codes, when its not contradicting itself and making OUTLANDISH remarks!

Don't act like you need a primer to read the fucking thing, Minion. Its written for idiots to read it.

No offense, but it's more important to me as a Christian to do what is expected of me than to strive not to "condescend" or be disrespectful to people.

Don't get me wrong, here. I am NOT one of those bible thumpers who pulls out scripture as a response to all of life's trials and threatens and pressures and attempts to scare people into becoming a Christian. But there have definitely been moments - admittedly not many, but a couple - where I've felt God's presence and have strongly felt that He was telling me that the moment was right to talk to someone about Jesus. So that's what I did. I hope it didn't offend anyone or make them feel condescended to, but if it did, so be it.

Why don't you try to make an argument form you own mind instead of doing cut a paste job, which is basically spam?

It was written so that idiots who speak Hebrew and lived over 2000 years ago can read it.

I think maybe you're buying into a pyramid scheme without even knowing it.

The Ancients were pretty smart.

Have you ever studied psychology? Just curious.

O, look. Minion hates it when someone disagrees with him!
I've made an argument for my own mind. I didn't JUST copy and paste. I DID copy and paste to save time. I am not going to go through every WEIRDO quote from the Bible, sir. I work for a living.

Now stop getting uppity because I don't believe in your white magic. We all know who Christ is, and we'll all believe if we're so inclined.

And yea, HEBREW. Do you know anything about Hebrew? Its a pretty DIVERSE language! Not so easy to translate!

How 'bout you stop spamming with your cut and paste bullshit? I can do the same thing. What would that make this argument but a pile of shit-spam?

DIDN'T I JUST ADDRESS THAT ABOVE?

Or are you looking for an excuse to spam? If you want me out of your conversation and you want to circlejerk about Christ for a while, let me know!

Did you NOT NOTICE the rest of my post? Or are you just really upset that someone may DISAGREE with your religion and the values it presents?

You have this MAJOR PROBLEM with accepting what other people believe. Man. You live on a PLANET where theres more than ONE right answer! CALM YOURSELF. Jesus.

You're pretty thick, arentcha? How is that one trick pony working out for you? Anytime I open my mouth in a way that you disapprove of, it's because I can't tolerate your beliefs, right? You poor thing.

Whatever, I'm outta here.

Sass, almost every quote you pasted was from the Old Testament. Jesus taught that his message of love took precedence over the harshness of the Old Testament. In fact, Jesus took issue with a lot of those old laws and was very vocal about it.

She knows that, Alice, but she's going to keep on being a blockhead. It's how she gets her rocks off.

What? You're the one who disapproves of my beliefs. Talking to you about religion is like talking to a rock about the ocean.

I know you can TOLERATE my beliefs. We're friends, aren't we?

I just don't like how if I disagree with you, post some interesting things (which I didn't have the TIME to type up myself, since god forbid I have a job), and you subsequently throw a fit because I did that.

You didn't even bother addressing the points made. YOu just sat there shouting at me about GOD WHY ARE YOU PASTING THINGS.

I am just saying that it seems - IT SEEMS - that SOME Christians - not ALL - tend to ignore the rest of the Bible and pick and chose what they feel is right and wrong. AND THATS FINE! ABSOLUTELY FINE! Just ADMIT that the Bible says some FUCKED UP SHIT~

Maybe now we can talk about dating and religion again?

I am curious, though - would you ever date a non-Christian? Maybe a Jew or something? Maybe we can start the conversation over again, here, without the religions righteousness on either side. ;_;

Minion, are you going to keep trolling me or what. Just let me know.

Alice, I don't care what testament its from. You believe in it, don't you? I mean, otherwise, why both keeping the two testaments together? They are BOTH books of God.

Are you going to tell the Jews they're wrong, too? =/

*cough* Yes.

I mean, obviously I think they are. Otherwise, I'd be Jewish, right? They don't believe in the one dude that is their very salvation. How can I believe that what Jesus said is true (that He is the only way to Heaven) and not think the Jews are wrong? Either I belive in the teachings of Jesus or I don't. My political correctness only stretches so far, Sass.

And the Buddhists? And the Muslims? They're all going to hell?

Points for being honest though! <3

I just can't understand that mentality. I can not even CONCEIVE of being so....judgemental about other religions.

Why do you think your religion is the right religion when there are so many of them out there? Who is to say one is more correct than the other, WITHOUT human intervention?

I mean, you can see how silly it all sounds to me, right?

ADDITIONALLY, and more IMPORTANTLY:
I don't mean to condescend, if I am. I enjoy having a good conversation about religion, so long as it stays civil. If I offend you, I am sorry - and I apologize.

Just, you know. I don't tell you guys about the super great benefits of being a naturalist. I don't wish others would convert. I just want everyone to find their own path - no matter how different from my own.

Can you lend me the same favor?

And that's been the very hardest hurdle for me to overcome as a Christian. I have a hard time understanding all that myself. I'm not a biblical expert like Minion, but Jesus was very clear about it. He said that there's only one way into Heaven and that's through Him. It's not being judgmental, really. You either believe in Jesus and what he said, or you don't. It's pretty simple.

I guess a "better" Christian wouldn't struggle with those very questions you asked me, but I do and I always have. That's one of the main things I can't wait to find out an aswer to when I get to Heaven.

Why would you believe in a man who said something so horrible? I am sorry if that sounds mean, or critical, but don't you think those are KIND OF war words?

I hope you see what I am saying, here.

What makes you so sure you're going there?

Not that I am implying anything. I am just curious to see how you conclude that:
A.) There is a heaven
B.) You're getting in there, dude.
C.) Its really a totally awesome place to be.

I mean, if it had a bunch of people who said Jews were totally wrong - as well as everyone else - I would totally go hang out with the other guy, you know? ^_^

The joke is you find out that God is actually Muslim

This actually is a tough issue, but there is a concept of "accountability" which is present in the OT and is reiterated in the NT. Basically, you have to hear, understand and reject the Gospel to be not saved. Although being not saved is just spending eternity separate from God. The stereotypical concept of Hell is actually not Biblical and very misunderstood. So, in a sense, God is just giving you what you want either way. He doesn't seem like such a bad guy to me.

Jesus only did as He was told. And there were times when He wasn't so thrilled with his job, let me tell you. It wasn't His big idea, by the way - it was His lot in life. It was the idea of the God of the Jews to make Jesus the only way into Heaven. Is it His fault that His own people rejected Him?

I have no choice but to believe that, if I believe in Jesus and his teachings, which I do. See, that's the beauty of it. Getting into Heaven doesn't have anything to do with anything you do or don't do. All it takes is for you to accept that Jesus is what He said He was, and that He died for us so that we could have eternal life in Heaven. That's it.

If I believe that, which I do, I'm in like Flynn.

Thank goodness Minion showed back up! See, I didn't know that.

You're not being sarcastic are you, Alice?

Um, no. =/

I can see you two sitting around, passing a blunt, complaining about your jobs like this is a shitty Kevin Smith movie.

"I hate my job. I'm tired of filing paperwork"
"Yeah, well, you try walking on fuckin water, lady. Puff and pass."

That sounds a heck of a lot like all those Twilight Zone episodes where the guy offers someone something and in the end it turns out to be Satan.

You neuter animals with your teeth and a hunting knife?

I LOL'd. Yeah, I said "LOL'd." What?

So we should do the same, according to the Life of Jesus?

Now I see why you guys voted for Bush. ^_^ (ITS A JOKE. CALM DOWN)

Can we talk about Mohammed yet? I'm Jesused-out. He's a pretty boring guy.

You do have a choice. But whatever. I'm not going to preach to you about it. =/
Is THAT what they're telling you these days?

So I guess those commandments are pretty null and void anymore. ;_; I kinda liked those.

Those little commandment thingys are guidelines on how God wants you to live. You can break all of them and still get into Heaven.

Theres something very wrong with your religion if you can break "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and still get in line for Saint Peter's list.

You trying to tell me John Wayne Gacey is in your Heaven?

It's complicated. I'm not copping out. It just is. Christ is the fulfillment of the Law. What this means is that, basically, the law is obsolete, not because its meaningless, but because you don't have to deal with it anymore. He pays for all of your mistakes. It's like when a kid breaks a window. Instead of suing the kid, the parent pays for it. Jesus is your guardian who pays for all your broken windows, if you accept that He can and did.

It's such a great example of how loving Jesus really is. He wants you to get into Heaven so badly that He made it pretty much the easiest thing ever, even if you're a murderer.

Besides, being a murderer is kinda moot when you're an immortal soul, floating around the Nth dimension.

Then I love the fact that people who work in the Peace Corps or people like Ghandi are in such good company as Hitler or serial murderers.

Why the fuck was Satan cast out then? You can't have it both ways.

Satan was cast out because he wanted to usurp God.

Hitler was vehemently anti-Christian, so no worries there.

The point is, Lehah, that we all deserve to go to hell. Yeah, even Ghandi, probably. How can you really judge the man? You only know the great thing he did. Maybe he was a shit as a kid. Who knows? The point is, if God sent everyone to hell who deserved it, he'd be pretty lonely up there. But He's takes us as we are, so long as we genuinely want to be with him.

As much as I think perspective is good, I think respecting people's decisions, and respecting them as intelligent human beings able to make their own decisions is good also.

So while someone might ask me if I have accepted Jesus into my heart, or hands me what is essentially a Christian propaganda comic book while I'm on the job, I am probably not going to entertain it as the life-changing event evangelism would like it to be.

Spreading the word of God can be accomplished just as well by serving as a living and constant reminder-- an example of what Christianity can foster inside our hearts and souls.

I am not Christian. I don't think I ever will be. But I don't think either extreme, either dismissing the religion out of hand, or extolling its virtues consistently to unreceptive people, allows for that large degree of human capability.

Fuck you, cynics. Stop treating everyone like they're a stupid asshole and you'll stop creating stupid assholes.

You've got a point, Skex. And I'm far from innocent here. I think we'd all do well to give each other's culture/religion/whatever more than a passing thought, for the sake of general peace.

I like how your ideology is full of shit.

I don't know what that means, but I'm guessing you're asking why I can't judge but God can? Which is kinda obvious. Omniscience and all.

Oh, and try not to make an ass of yourself. I have no problem thread banning you.

Care to elaborate on this highly intelligent, well-thought-out and thought-provoking sentiment?

To believe in God is to make an exception as he is a entity separate from the existence of Man and Nature. A special exception can only be proved in a special manner - you know, you need pretty overwhelming facts to back up pretty overwhelming truths. Your faith - Catholicism - is thusly only then a true and factual one when special effects, appearances of God, miracles, are believed in. (Have either of you seen a miracle? And I don't mean giving birth or a nice sunset either)

On the other hand, your belief in God is identified with the belief in the world around you, where the belief in God is no longer a special exception, where the being of the world takes possession of the whole person, there also vanishes the belief in special effects and appearances of God.

The theory of God is wrecked, is stranded on your belief in the world, in natural effects as the only true ones - that the world is a literal thing, as opposed to miracles, which are not to be proven literally. And here - the belief in miracles is no longer anything more than the belief in historical, past miracles, (unless either of you have witnessed something utterly unexplainable as to only be available to the theory of God) so the existence of God is also only an historical, in itself atheistic idea.

Or the Bible/Ressurection? Which I'm sorry to say has some secular historical backing. Not to mention the Dead Sea Scrolls which predate Jesus and contain numerous prophecies about him.

Thats moot. I can make 5000 predictions and I bet you someone in some way-off future will say I was right about something, even if they had to stretch the truth to get it to fit.

It's a matter of figures, odds, numbers.

Not to mention, the Bible's "secular backing" is somewhat iffy given that the Bible was written how long after the death of your Lord?

Am I the only person reading this and going in the back of my mind, isn’t it just a tad supercilious of the human race to conceptualize an entity that can create an entire universe as physically anthropomorphic. Or, does the various references of “he” in this thread isn’t to be taken in a literal context? I seriously can’t tell with Christians most of the time.

Thats another part of the silliness of it all.

The universe, we imagine, is centered around us. Its the way humans think. Everything is here for us. Maybe we're just the only animals on the planet that have the ability to reason and use logic to such levels. Maybe thats why we have the superiority complex. Its a curse if you ask me. ;_;

Scientists once thought that the sun spun around us, too. Oops. They were wrong.

We are not the center of everything. The sooner we learn this, the sooner we can make a little progress. ;_;

Would you prefer "It"? I fail to see what difference it makes whether we refer to God as "He" "She" or "It."

It would explain the psychology of a person who cast a perfectly good angel out of Heaven for trying to advance himself in the ranks of Heaven.

It's not like angels are easy to come by. I think God must be a man. He sucks at politics. ;_;

Everything you say about God is a metaphor, including the pronoun "he" because He is, by definition, unlike anything in the natural world and therefore outside of our combined experiences and beyond literal description.

Satan wasn't trying to advance, Sass. He was trying to take over. It was a failed coup, essentially. God gave him power second only to His own and because of pride, he believed that he was actually stronger than God and wanted to destroy Him. He failed and paid for it, along with the 1/3 of the angels who followed him.

I just want to insert a comment, and that is that we are not 100% sure that this is really the case. There are things hinted at here and there throughout the books of the prophets which suggest some sort of falling out, and there really is nothing in the bible to contradict what Minion is saying, but it certainly is not blatantly said in scripture. What IS clearly said though is that satan's desire is to oppose and attempt to thwart God.

I guess you should take the Bible as a metaphor, then. =/

Fyodor - I was taught that Satan was a fallen angel. I don't know what Bible you're reading.

Who can blame him? With a dude like God in power, I would try to take over, too. Telling people weird shit. Come on. If you want to convince people, you've got to make the story believable!

Thats fucking awesome, dude.

But, you know, theres no such thing as pure good or evil. I bet Satan is a fucking softy.

I wonder if anyone is going to make serious use of this thread or if I should just flush it.

I AM making serious of it! It's not my fault I have to sugar coat everything to not offend the Christians!

I mean, man. You're lucky I'm not a JEW.

If there was ever a religion I've thought about picking up, its Judaism. Just for the awesome fucking traditions. ;_;

Seriously. Don't flush this. You'll need it in the future when every OTHER conversation turns into a theological debate!

And I don't see whats wrong with discussing Satan. Why can't we talk about Satan, Minion? He is like, God's arch nemesis! HE EXISTS to piss off God! Can you tell me more about Satan? Isn't your job as a Christian to tell me about him?

C'mooooon. *tugs at Minion's shirt*

You forgot to raise any sort of serious point amid your jokes.

What jokes?

Are you seriously refusing to tell me about Satan? I want to know why he decided to storm off like a baby and pitch his own camp just to piss of God.

What kinds of morals does Satan uphold?

Seriously. He's a part of Christianity. Why can't you tell me about him? ;_;

(I am being 100% serious)

Well, that is generally what is understood. There are many references in Isaiah to "the morning star" that had fallen, and taken 1/3 of the heavens with it.
As far as I am aware, however, the details of what went on are not too precisely known, seeing as how the books of the prophets had a tendency to be poetic and allegorical.

Well, he acts that way because he really believes he's better than God. He's not dumb; he's just really, really, proud. He has a kind of pride which is completely blinding. The kind that would even make you wince.

Unfortunately, this is where we are not too certain. I personally do not think that satan has any morals, except that which will benefit him.
What we do know is that satan is a very attractive being, the most beautiful in fact. However, he desires to try and overthrow God, or at least did. Since he obviously cannot do that, and also disobeyed God in the process, he is no longer worthy to be amongst God, and was cast off forever.
I have often wondered about how this works out though. Like in the movie "Dogma," one of the characters in the beginning is lamenting how if the angels fall, there is no forgiveness for them like there is for humans. It is a very challenging question, and one that I do not think will be answered with any amount of certainty.

Fatbody makes two good points though.

1.) The fact that you're offended that someone can't take your beliefs seriously is just silly. Aside from this being the intarweb, how can you be offended by someone else's beliefs? Thats being just as close-minded as you assume other people are being.

2.) Even if you do close this, I sincerely doubt it'll stop anyone from ever raising the point again.

My personal semantics aside - theological discussions on the internet is about as bad of an idea as you can have. None of us are theologians or jesuits - it just breaks down into an "Us And Them" theme. I'm not trying to knock you down, Minion but come on.

So is that, like, his only REALLY BAD trait? I thought there were seven of those horrific sins. He's not, like,a fat, slovenly, lusty devil? Because, you know, I thought he was supposed to be everything God wasn't - the extreme opposite. Like, you know, PURE EVIL. But he was just too proud? And he wanted to take over for God? He didn't actually HURT God?

So I guess pride is the worst sin of all?

So 1/3 of Heaven's angels went with the dude? Wow. Thats a pretty big number. He must have had SOMETHING going for him. Otherwise, no one would have gone with him!

Also: Its probably not good to be proud about your religion, then? I mean, uh. You guys are going to scream at me and Minion is going to say mean things to me, but uh. God is pretty fucking proud if he tells you he's the only right dude out there. =/

Well, this is actually a big misunderstanding that early Catholic culture has created amongst the popuular understanding. They tried to discretize everything into completely black and white perceptions. The understanding of the devil has followed along with this trend, and has created in the popular mind a sort of artificial dualism between God and the devil.

Double Post:
Well, he is the only right dude out there, and thus has every right to be "proud." The reason why we shouldn't be proud is because there will always be one who is better than us. In the scope of everything, we have no right to be prideful, for, even though compared to other people, we might be awesome, compared to God, we are as bad as the lowliest persons.

This discussion is going to be hard to manage if we don't narrow down what we're talking about. I want us to pick a topic and try not to deviate from it. It looks like we're talking about Satan right now. Fine. Let's pick one thing to disucuss about him and bat it around until we're done. Tangents are always the bane of any worthwhile discussion, so lets try to avoid them. Sass, I think you should decide what the topic is specifically, then let's go from there.

Just try not to make more than one point at a time and stay on topic.

I think the topic is general theology. Hence the name of the title.
Satan and God are both within the realm of theology, last I checked.

I made the thread. Let me make the rules.

I'm sorry, it looked like Sass started it. Did her own breakoff of the originating thread.
I've done that before, and had no reason to think she didn't.

It was from another thread. I split it.

So we can talk about Buddhism or Islam instead?

I mean, THEOLOGICAL is a broad term.

Minion, maybe you should turn the name of the thread into "Worshipping Jesus Thread?" I thought we were free to discuss any topic of religion we wanted?

If not, the title is very misleading! I am sorry to have expressed wanting to talk about Satan!

NOW. BACK ONTO THE TOPIC AT HAND!
But, I mean, it seems like Satan himself can hardly compete, you know? He only has one BIG flaw - he's proud. Or so you guys are telling me? I mean, does he have more faults?

Thats why I was asking what kind of morals Satan upholds - if its even documented. You'd think it would be. He's a good device to use in order to frighten people into going tohe path of God and Jesus, right? But, I mean, does it say anything about what he was like beforehand? If he was God's right hand man, then he must have been a pretty good dude.

I don't get this. ;_;

Holy shit, man. GOD can be proud? But we CAN'T be?

What kind of hypocrisy is this? A Good Leader should always set the example for his people! O_O

This sounds so Catholic, its not funny. ^_^

I just thought it would make sense if we talked about one thing at a time, but Sass will have her way.

God leads the same way a parent leads. There are rules for us to follow that He doesn't have to. Your parents give you a bedtime when you're a kid, but that doesn't mean it's their bedtime too.

Thats the basic idea behind Feuerbachian thought: Man is his own God.

What? I AM talking about one thing. You're the one pouting about it! I have QUESTIONS about CHRISTIANITY! Shouldn't you be jumping at that opportunity? ;_;

But parents aren't always right. Your metaphor is flawed.

And I am talking about Satan, here. I know how God leads. I want to know what makes Satan such a BAD DUDE!

I am 100% serious here, Minion. What makes him so god awful?? So he's proud - you said that. Is he anything else? I mean, did he take up all the worst habits once he was kicked into hell with his buddies? Just to piss off God? What does Satan support?! Inquiring minds need to know! And who better to ask??

(LeHah, I've read Anton LaVey. I know. But thats a bunch of bullshit too, since it exists only to counteract the Church. "HEY! We're here just to SPOOK THE CHRISTIANS! WE ARE OUR OWN GOD. WOOOO Lets have a RITUAL SACRIFICE, even though we DONT EVEN BELIEVE IN THIS SHIT!" I loathe LaVey.)

Like I said, God has the right to be "proud." And I do not care if it sounds catholic or not. I think it is a basic understanding of theology. It is not hypocricy either, since the problem with pride is the fact that you have no right to be proud. There is always someone better than you, so don't act like you are Him. To be prideful is to almost act as if you are as good as God. the same type of thing goes with killing people. God has the right to decide who lives and who doesn't, because he knows everything. He is the arbiter of life. If someone were to murder someone else, then he would be attempting to usurp the role of God, deciding who lives and who doesn't, and that is clearly a no-no. Just like Satan is believed to have wanted to usurp God. And he paid dearly for it.

However, as for someone setting a good example for his people, what do you think Jesus did? He came, and did exactly that. And then some as well.

Double Post:
<3 Sassumo ^_^

Satan is actually nearly perfect in every way. His flaw is his pride, yes. His inability to comprehend that God is greater than him and that he needs God. Actually, it's a flaw that's pretty common among people. Thinking that they have everything under control when they really don't. Too proud to admit that they need help.

That and rather than admit that he's wrong, he tries to ruin God's plan as much as possible and uses people for his own purposes. He actually enjoys your misery. Which is one thing that I find can make even a human being evil.

So I'm wondering. Considering the nature of "free will" in which any being can do whatever it pleases, even in some type of Heaven or eternal Earthly paradise, you know, whatever the hell people are believing they want to end up in after death... Couldn't this happen again?

I asked my morality teacher in high school (a Benedictine monk). He said yes. He said that as long as there's free will there could very easily be another Satan as result of a disobedient angel.

Of course, then again, I asked several monks at my school the same questions and got different answers. Such a small group of people with varying beliefs. Suicide means automatically going to hell? Seems like not everyone thinks so. Atheists can go to Heaven? Yes and no. Consitency~~~ that's why religion is SO AWESOME. Even the men and women who have spent years studying this stuff don't even know. Can I get a Pope to create some infallible truths, plz. I really need to know the extent to which I can sin while still being in the green.

You're not addressing how blatantly hypocritical it is, sir. EDIT: You did. Okay.

Ah. THere we go.

Of course we have the right to be proud.

If you're a good Christian, God will send you to heaven! Isn't THAT AWESOME? Aren't you PROUD that you can live your life like a good Christian??

Aren't you PROUD God favors you over people like me? Don't you deserve Heaven?

Define "better."

But Alice and Minion just told me that you can kill a person and get into Heaven! This makes no sense, Fyodor! ;_;

WELL SHIT. Sounds like you can be a murdered and you CANT get into Heaven! You were playing God!

Can SOMEONE PLEASE tell me if I murder someone, whether or not I can get into Heaven if I accept the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into my black little heart?

Jesus isn't God, dude. He's apparently the SON of God. Or, if you're Catholic part of the whole TRINITY thing, but that makes even LESS sense to me, so lets not bring that stuff up. ^_^

God shouldn't send a messenger to tell us shit. If he wants to set a good example, he shouldn't say "HEY. YOU. You can't be proud, but I CAN!" Thats, like, such blatant hypocrisy, its laughable. I would NEVER follow a dude who said that to me. ;_;

NEEDS MORE SATAN.

Looks like his business is booming, though.

How did Satan need help? He was the SECOND BEST to God! Holy crap, dude - I would be totally proud, too! I mean, pride is CONTAGIOUS, here. I mean, God didn't set a very good example for poor Satan. ;_;

ALSO: Shouldn't you, like, PITY Satan? Instead of shun him? Shouldn't you want to help him?

How do you know he enjoys misery?

Why would he care about a person like me, sir. I don't believe in God. Why would Satan care about me because of that? I am a neutral in both parties!

Thats awesome, though. He laughs when I cry. He sounds like the kind of guy I should look up to. STRENGTH. <3

You're right, Eleo. Knowing God (Theology) is a never ending processes. You're never done learning. So yeah, people will have different beliefs. This would make things very complicated if God hadn't made it so simple by only requiring you to accept the sacrifice of His son.

Hehehe, half-right. I think Feuerbach was more "Hey, stop this shit about there being a higher power if you can't support the idea with logic. Just be happy you are the highest power you know and get on with your freaking lives, foo"

Well, I mean, you can't prove either side of the fence with God.

Thats why we're sitting here over an eCoffee discussing Satan. And God. Because no one can prove shit.

Kinda like saying Pink Floyd sucks ass. A lot of people would disagree, but that doesn't make them right or wrong.

Do you have any links for this Feuerbach dude? Get some for AIM tonight.

Man, I really hate QuoteWarstm so, I'm just gonna do what I intended and respond to one point at a time.

He cares because God wants you in his camp. And there are only two camps, sadly. If you don't want to be with God, you end up in the other camp. Satan couldn't be happier than when someone doesn't care either way. Takes the burden of winning you over off his shoulders.

You, sir, hate everything but Jesus Praise. =p

WHAT IF I AM MUSLIM?

I am TECHNICALLY on the Jedi Side. Just not batting for God and Jesus. More like Mohammed. My sponsor is a little different.

I still can not get over the fact that you people SERIOUSLY THINK that your religion is the ONLY RIGHT religion. Man. BOGGLES THE MIND. Thats not proud AT ALL!

(Dont get mad at me, Minion)

No, I do not deserve Heaven. I am extremely glad that God will accept me how I am. I am happy and thankful for the chances I have been allowed. This still does not give me any right to be proud in the context in which you are referring to. It was through no effort of my own, but all the work had been done by god already.

Ignoring your satire... Yes, you can be forgiven for the sin of usurping the role of God. Which is the whole point.
A murderer can still get into heaven, if he realize that what he was doing what wrong, and gave up this sinful desire.

Let me ask you something.
When humans have progeny, what are they? Humans
When God has "progeny" what is it? God
This is only an illustration to explain what on earth is going on, because, like you said, the Trinity is intangible.

The 1/3 of the heavens is half a verse out of Revelation which is taken out of context in order to fit some kind of "pre-earth rebellion" timeline. Goes something like "and the dragon took a third of the stars of heaven with his tail" or some shit. But it's stuffed inbetween a bunch of other imagery that "isn't" connected with a pre-earth rebellion of Satan. In other words, people don't know what the fuck it really means since it was most likely a political reference that made sense to the people who it was written to at the time mystical prophecy.


Actually Sass, there's an interesting theory on Satan within the Jewish Kabbalah. According to one theory, when this world is over we're all going to be absorbed back into God as "one" being. We'll lose anything that defines us as a unique being, but be part of the awesomesuperduperness that is God. Satan didn't like this. He was like hey, I like being me, I want to stay an individual instead of being sucked back into the big black Holy hole that is God. This is why he was such a draw for so many souls; Satan offered a rebellion for individuality. This theology goes on to say that the reason we exist is to experience life for God, then He'll absorb us back in with our experiences. I even believe there's a few verses in the Bible that talk about us all becoming one with God when we die (but of course, there will be debate as to the meaning). I find the whole idea of this really interesting, and one of the more plausible arguments for Satan other then "he's teh evil dood."

I think Christianity is right, but that's not to say that every other religion is 100% wrong. It's just that .0000001% that matters that seems to elude people. Nevertheless, I told you about accountability. If a Muslim doesn't really understand the Gospel and never gets around to rejecting it, I don't seriously know if he's any different from a baby in God's eyes. What I do know is that it's up to God. I don't know who goes to hell and who doesn't. I do know that if you want to be separate from God, he gives you what he wants, but people who just don't get it? I dunno. It's not my place to say. I make it a point never to answer the "where am I going when I die?" question. I usually tell people to ask God themselves.

Is it me - or does Minion suddenly sound a hell of a lot like Matthew Harrison Brady all the sudden? "God tells Brady what is good; to be against Brady is to be against God!"

What are you talking about Lehah? I just said that I don't know what God is thinking...

Fyodor, I think you should whip yourself daily. I bet that would make God sure that you weren't full of nasty, stinking pride.

Whereas me? Most arrogant son of a bitch ever created. And I LOVE it. I'll send you a postcard from HELL.

(Seriously. This is insane. Being proud is a sin. Because O SHIT you may put yourself on the same level of GOD!)

So. What are your thoughts on free will, Fyodor?

Minion, you expect a Muslim to even BOTHER reading the Gospel? Why should they? It's against THEIR religion.

And, I mean, how can you say they're WRONG?! Muslims believe in the SAME FUNDAMENTAL IDEAS that you Christians do.

This is wars are started, man.

Actually, Jesus is in the Koran. Muslims feel the same way about Jesus that the Jews do. Most of the people in the Koran are in the Bible. I can't help but think that Mohammad ripped the Koran off of the Bible, frankly.

You're literlly sounding like you walked off the set of Inherit the Wind.

Minion: If a Muslim doesn't really understand the Gospel and never gets around to rejecting it, I don't seriously know if he's any different from a baby in God's eyes. What I do know is that it's up to God. I don't know who goes to hell and who doesn't. I do know that if you want to be separate from God, he gives you what he wants, but people who just don't get it?

LeHah: Is it me - or does Minion suddenly sound a hell of a lot like Matthew Harrison Brady all the sudden? "God tells Brady what is good; to be against Brady is to be against God!"

Minion: What are you talking about Lehah? I just said that I don't know what God is thinking...

===

Henry Drummond: Is that the way of things? God tells Brady what is good; to be against Brady is to be against God!

Matthew Harrison Brady: No! Every man is a free agent!

Henry Drummond: Then what is Bertram Cates doing in the Hillsboro Jail?

I'm saying I don't know, but I believe God will accomodate anyone who wants to be with Him. Far from telling you what the "way of things" is.

Well, if you believe that you MUST accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior to get into Heaven (which is a requirement to be considered officially Christian), then yes, all other religions are 100% wrong, because they don't accept this.

Well, how can you say you don't know "the way of things" - but you can tell me God is accomodating anyone?

No, they're only wrong in that one respect, necessarily. Unfortunately, that's the most important part. It's definitely not 100%, though.


That's the kind of guy God seems to be, from what I understand and believe, based on my research and personal experience.

Who wouldn't acknowledge Jesus? He was a historical figure. I think he was a bullshit artist with a few tricks up his sleeves for the idiots, but hey. He was a pretty good dude. No one to worship, though. All those palms and bathing and stupid - ugh. Bothers me just to THINK about it. Prideless my ass.

Have you ever read the Koran, Minion? You may enjoy it. I think its a little more passionate than the Bible. Makes it sexier.

Uh, actually yeah I have read some of it and I own a copy. Haven't read it all, no. Have you?

Well, I'd consider it 100% since you go to Hell for not believing it. If you believe 90% of whatever else Christianity believes, it doesn't matter because you'll still go to hell, so why deal in percentages when there's such an absolute condition?

I think the fact that other religions have some things right just shows that God reveals things to everyone. He's trying to connect with everyone. I see Christianity as God's last effort to help people connect with him.

I'm glad you can get a know someone on such a deep personal level - but if I told you my invisible friend named Horthax The Sungod was a great guy and liked to eat smelly cheese, how would you take it?

I mean, are you so arrogant to say you've solved one of the greatest mysteries of all time?

Not all of it. But you'd be surprised.

I had this Jew in high school history class - Dr. Pulda. He converted, and made it a point to teach us EVERYTHING he could about the Koran. Our exposure was limited at the time, so he took it upon himself to teach us about it.

Whether or not it was RIGHT for him to teach it to us, I dont know. But I learned a lot about the religion and the Koran itself from him. We DID read passages in class.

He since died of cancer, I believe. I wonder if he went to Heaven or Jannah. Which are essentially the same place - "a place beautiful abode where, those who believe in only God, humble themselves to worship Him, do the good and avoid the evil, are promised to go after the end of this worldly life."

Last effort? It happened 2000 years ago, and it was His last effort? He seems to be giving up pretty damn early. And what's point of God revealing things to everyone if He then makes one of His religions completely exclusive, supposedly holding an absolute truth that no other religion has? Is it like He's teasing them with just enough truth so they keep their faith, only to find out they still go to Hell when they die since they weren't Christian?

This is actually how a lot of cults work.

And yea, in the scheme of the entire history of man and his beliefs, even MONOTHEISM is a fairly new idea.

Which makes it even MORE questionable as a religion. I think we should go back to worshipping Amen Ra. He made more sense.

http://pronovamusic.com/images/ra.JPG

Sun worship. Its logical, in a sense.

Since i'm not clued up on Christianity and all the various permutations, do Lutherans believe in the Rapture or is that another sect? I used to know someone who did and she was mildly fearful for my soul because the simple fact that I didn't need a religion to tell me what was right and wrong meant that I was going to burn. I asked her about babies and starving kids in Africa, many of whom don't even get the chance to learn to read, let alone read the Bible. Her response was iffy so someone should clarify.

I'm not religious myself but I nevertheless consider myself to be more of a decent guy that most people I know, and people tell me this too (it's not my PRIDE :O). You can acquire and develop a perfectly fair and decent moral framework without religion, but experiences can help to shape that.

For Sass (who probably already knows all this):
http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/film2.shtml

It's very brief but I didn't know any of this and it's my heritage so maybe I should get off my ass and actually look into it ^_^.

All Christians basically believe in the rapture, but I don't see why that belief would make anyone particularly zealous.

The thing about Africans who can't read and babies I've address earlier in the thread. There is a concept of accountability in both Christianity and Judaism. Basically you have to hear and understand the Gospel in order to be accountable.

So what happens to the people who don't? That's largely up to God. I've heard some weird stories from people who had never heard of Christianity and were mysteriously lead to it (I've actually met these people). I believe God gives you everything you need to make the decision. He is fair and just. If you want to be with Him, He'll give you every chance to make that choice. If not, He gives you what you want (or, at least, what you think you want).

So by that you mean he gives you the human faculties (i.e. intelligence) to make a yes or no decision on accepting Christianity, or he places you automatically on the road to Christianity whether you choose to walk it or not? That sounds unclear but I guess what i'm asking is this; is everyone who hasn't read the gospel simply a Christian who is ignorant of the fact, like a seed waiting to germinate?

Not everyone has to be a Christian. I'm gonna get in trouble for saying that, but I really believe that that is the correct theology. The Bible says that basically the universe itself proclaims his existence. But as far as people who God has seen fit to put in a position where you are basically forced to make a decision about the Gospel, you're expected to accept it. God basically just wants people who are genuinely interested in him. In order for that to be possible, He had to give you the ability to say no to Him, otherwise you'd be a robot and for some reason that's just not good enough for him. Of course, we all understand that having robots would be unfulfilling, and we know this because we can relate to God in some ways. That is what's meant by "we were created in His image." He doesn't have a physical image. It just means we are wired to understand God in certain ways.

Call me crazy but in my world 'correct' and 'metaphor' don't mix well. It's like looking at an abstract painting and trying to be 'correct' with your understanding of it.

What the hell are you talking about?
The only time we (the christian folk) mentioned metaphor is when Minion said that referring to God as "He" is a metaphor. As such, it is a rather incomplete term. Such is with any term that is used to describe God.

However, given your analogy, one could feasibly get an interpretation of the art wrong. For example, it could be a drab, dark, solemn depiction of someone suffering. Then some freak comes along and says that it is a parade of happy clowns. I leave the realization of the absurdity of such a conclusion to you.

Was something I said not clear, SMX? Something outside of our collective experience can only be described in metaphors because we have never felt with any of our senses what it is really like. It's just the nature of supernature.

Wait. So. Is the BIBLE a metaphor?

Some of it, yeah. Jesus used parables all the time.

So could you please expound on the following:

"Don’t imagine that I {Jesus} came to bring peace on earth! No, rather a sword lf you love your father, mother, sister, brother, more than me, you are not worthy of being mine!"

Matthew 10:34

Well, was he right? What are we fighting about right now?

I am asking you to explain what you feel (The Church) Jesus meant by that lovely, LOVELY phrase.

The biggest criticism I have of Christianity (and this is just coming from experience with my immediate religious community) is selective use of the Bible. I don't understand how one can say, "This book is holy" and then disagree with much of it. I see the Bible as an all or nothing deal, and that's why I can't accept it as anything further than Jesus' teaching of common sense. I agree with the messages of pacifism and respect, but I also think those values can be found in other, less dogmatic places.

Basically, just what I said. What he is talking about is the consequence of following Him. The "sword" is exactly what it implies - opposition. Somtimes violent opposition. He is warning us that we'll have to deal with it.

If you read the passage in context, He talks about "turning a man against his father, a daughter against mother" etc.. This is pretty much what happens. When someone chooses to follow Him and that person's family doesn't, that causes conflict. Surely not peace.

Actually, He is not saying anything new. He is merely reiterating the phrophecy from Micah 7:6.

Sass, I find it harder and harder to read what you write when you include so much condescension and arrogant presumtuousness.
Weren't you the one who was bitching about "Christians being condescending" or something?

EDIT:
Ah yes, here we go:
http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/sh...sion#post47439

I like how you didn't answer the question, Fyodor! I wasn't condescending or ANYTHING in my question! I just wanted to know what the explanation was of that statement! Please! Do not be confused!

Don't YOU think that statement is a little....uh....harsh coming from a man who claims to be the son of god? Claims to be a peaceful man? I think it is. Don't play the Hate Card against me because of my interpretation, sir!

Perhaps you can also explain this one?
“If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”
Luke 14:26

Fyodor, surely you can see how a person would be turned off by this, no?

And Minion, it seems more to me that he is pretty much encouraging war-mongering in the name of faith. Maybe its just my interpretation, being an idiot and all. =/

I didn't answer because:
1) Again, it is hard to acknowledge condescending questions
2) Minion took care of it

Also, it seems to me like you are not actually interested in getting answers to these questions, and rather you are looking for something which you can mock us for. It seems more and more like you are trying to catch us in some stupid logical trap.

So you agree with Minion's assessement?

I am simply ATTEMPTING to discuss things in the Bible I am a little confused on, Fyodor. I am asking you these questions because I'd like to hear what you guys think of these scriptures!

Are you getting offended because I am selecting rather bizarre and unloving words of the Bible? Thats PRECISELY why I am asking about them! I need clarification! It seems a little contradictory to me! Perhaps I am just not understanding, and I was hoping you could maybe shed some light on the matters at hand?

No? You'd rather get offended? OKAY~

I didn't call you an idiot, but I think you're wrong. I also think that what he meant by that was pretty obvious from the context. Just read the whole chapter and I think you'll get it.

The problem with the Luke passage is two-fold: there is a translation difficulty and a figurative concept that you haven't picked up on.

Firstly, there is apparently no way to express moderate feelings for love/hatred in Hebrew. Take Luke 16:13 for example:

"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."

Now, does a servant HAVE to hate one of the masters? Hate is such a strong word. Could he maybe just not like him as much? Seems a little extreme, but in the proper cultural context, people would know what you were talking about. It's a relational thing. Which takes me to my next point.

What Jesus is saying is that compared to how your're supposed to love Him, your feelings that you describe as love toward you family and friends are like hatred. It is simple hyperbole - a concept that is used extensively in Hebrew, in the Bible and by Jesus himself (ie, forgive your enemies 77 times 7 times, etc.).

I think (but what do I know i'm not a Christian after all) what the last excerpt is trying to explain is the great degree of sacrifice a person must be willing to make to ensure his life is preserved after death. A general denouncement of not just material possessions but those people we hold most dear as well. I don't think it sounds reasonable but it gets the point across.

Sir. What makes you think I haven't.

A figurative concept. Which I haven't picked up on yet. Because I don't know how to read.

So you're okay with people demanding your love? THINGS demanding your love? These same things threatening your life for your love? And they love you back?

CAN YOU SEE HOW THIS IS A LITTLE BIZARRE TO US, MINION.

"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you. I am the Lord”
Leviticus 19:28
O SHIT. Get a tattoo, you go to Hell. Get an ear pericing for your child - you go to Hell. You shit into the wind you go to Hell. I can see why you guys are wound so tight. =/

I guess circumcision is also wrong and bad, ne?

It's not a demand. He's saying that if you don't love Him that much, then you don't "get it". It's more of a litmus test for how close you are to God than anything like a demand.

So Minion. Prove to me how close you are as my friend to me. I want you to prove your friendship to me by simply drawing a pint of your own blood in my name.

You'll surely say no to this, right?

Yes, more or less.

And I am sorry, but like I said, the language you have a tendency to use gives me impression of baiting and mockery. That is just my impression though. And I guess there is not any way to tell with certainty either, considering the nature of conversation through written word.

Interesting parrallel you make there, my dear Fyodor. (I am sorry for writing Fyodor all the time. You just change your name so much, I can't keep up. Sorry again.)

And yea, so may language teeters on sarcasm. Thats not necessarily intentional. Consider who I talk to all day long. ^_^

Eitherway, here's another one for you to explain! (I am enjoying this!)
"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted."
Leviticus 26:21-22

Either you or Minion. I just like to hear what you guys think about them. Like I said, to ME, they are fairly hostile words. To you, its words of wisdom, I guess? =/

I don't see what that has to do with anything. God is not asking for my blood. He's not even asking me to prove anything. Why would He if He's omniscient?

And Sass, we've addressed the old testament a billion times. Do we really have to keep going over what all that shit in Leviticus and Deuteronomy is about?

He asks for your blood in death, first of all.

If he's omniscient, why the hell does he feel the need to demand proof of your love all the time? I HAVE a scripture written down somewhere on this blasted notebook which encourages sacrifice. Literally. I'll edit it in once I find it.

AH! I have SEVERAL, here! <3

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you."
Genesis 22:1-18

Burn your son - the one you love so much - sacrifice him to me?

I really just don't know what you're talking about. When does He ask for my blood? Maybe you're talking about Jesus? I dunno...

Ah the typical Isaac sacrifice.

Well, there are many reasons why God had demanded this.

First of all, looking at this from a psychological perspective, this was probably a call for him to perform act which would concrete his devotion to God. Of course God wouldn't let him go through with it, but this is not what Abraham was thinking. Abe's devotion to God is taken at a totally different level in his mind when he is goes off to do this. Actions can have a significant psychological effect upon a person.

Secondly, the matter of sacrifices in general is a matter of atonement for sins. Basically we all deserve to die, and then some. But instead, and I don't know how or why God does this, he will accept a replacement. This is why sacrifice is generally necessitated in atonement. Because we all deserve to die.
Yeah yeah yeah, I know you are going to complain about how this is "totally unfair" or "breeding a culture of fear, thus forcing people to believe in God" or other shit, and well... so what?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is not true.
Just because someone in China is afraid to voice any opposition to the government, and they don't like it, does not mean that they are not disallowed from voicing opposition. Life is tough, and God is perhaps the closest thing to an exception.
Let us not also forget the possibility that the idea that we deserve to die might actually *gasp* be true. :-O

Also a third point:
It was setting the stage of sybolism in the Hebrew(and world's) understanding of what Jesus was going to do.
Abraham was supposed to be the father of many nations and many people. Isaac is representative of this. We, the people of the world similarly should be put to death. However, instead, a sacrificial lamb is provided by God. This is representative of Jesus, who came to take our place in death.

See my last post on the previous page. Like I said, I have a lot of NOTES to go through on my end - please be patient.

Also, sacrifice, Fyodor, should never be included in atonement. No sir could be as horrible as making a person sacrifice their son to God. Such a loving God that he is.

So murder is okay when you're concreting the devotion to your God?

In that same vein, I bet Allah loves suicide bombers! It all makes sense now!

You're actually justifying human sacrifice. I can not believe I am witnessing this.
YOU believe in it. Not me, dude. I sure as hell know I would never buy into this. I am sorry, but, you know. WOW.
Just because you like it doesn't make it true.
Maybe in your world. (Wherever that is.)
How terribly HUMAN of you to say.

Things expire. ALL things expire, in time. Its nature. Not God. We don't die because we deserve it. We die because theres no way we could biologically last.

A LAMB MAGICALLY APPEARS! HIS NAME IS JESUS.

He was KILLED on a cross because his people couldn't stand him, and then he magically came back to life! NECROMANCY IS AWESOME. It works for Satan! <3

I don't want to fight with anyone here, but do enjoy when people can talk about these things in a civil manner. The ever popular 'throw up your hands in a huff when asked to explain/defend one's position' tactics don't work. If someone is 'attacking' your points or your beliefs, then instead of just hoping they would understand and not even trying to defend your beliefs really seems like a cop-out.

How do we know this? Ok, if we believe that God has demanded or requested this sacrifice, how do we know that 'of course' He wouldn't let Abraham go through with it? Is this because he is 'good'? And if so, then how can we assume that what is 'good' in our views (as moral humans) be the same as what is 'good' in God's view? As far as he is concerned the sacrifice may very well have been the right thing to do. How can we know that we aren't just projecting our personal subjective morals onto God, and guessing what he would do because it is what we believe a moral human would do?

We all deserve to die, and then some. This is a sentiment I've never quite understood. Are you sure? And if so, how do we know that we all deserve death, and worse?

Thanks to Fjordor and Minion for their explaining some of their views in this thread. Even if it does take some coaxing at times.

I think we have an innate understanding of what is good according to God due to our being created in His image. Now, how badly that understanding gets corrupted by society is another story.

If we've all got this understanding, then why are there such huge divides between what one person thinks is 'right', and what another thinks is 'right'? And how does it make sense that a society made entirely out of those that know a thing, would just somehow change and against that thing? Why would a room full of like-minded people just all of a sudden change their mind?

Also, just to be clear, your point is more or less that we know this thing, because we think we know it? Ie: We know what is 'good', as God would know a thing to be good, because we know that we were created in His image. And we know that we were created in His image because, we just know that we were created in his image? I don't mean to say there is anything wrong with circular reasoning when it comes to theology, I just to be sure that is the explanation.

I've always had trouble 'getting' such assumptions, and I know that those who hold them think of them as more than assumtions.

Alright, I was gonna sit this out & just read the comments, but eh, what the heck.

Anyway, concerning the "Test of Abraham." there's a viewpoint of which I'm part of that sees it as a window into who the enemy (or what we call Satan) is. While not getting into direct bible qoutes, I'll paraphrase.

God does not tempt people to do evil. Sacrificing another persons life is basically murder. So, seeing as God does not tempt us to sin (James 1:13), & that murder is a big sin (Exodus 20:13), as well as the fact, that after studying the old Testament, God always used some from, a focal point if you will (usually whenever you read the Angel of the Lord, it means Jesus, as does Archangel Michael. Sometimes using dreams, also a focal point) to interact with the world, & that a "Voice", not a form or dream, told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac (the word elohiym, translated as God in the chapter, is basically the Hebrew version of God/god), not the Angel of the Lord, who stopped it from happening. We can understand that it was probably some other entity, most likely Satan, that wanted Isaac killed.

Why you may ask, well becuase Isaac was the progenitor of the lineage that would bring about Christ. Isaac was not Christ, therefore, his sacrifice would acheive nothing.

Whew... & I agree about what's been said about hell, as far as it's not really a place of torment, or fire. It's distance from God, leading to complete destruction. In plain terms, you either make it to heaven, or you cease to exist. Which brings about free will, you can either believe in God, or not. What happens to a soul that doesn't make it is up for discussion. There are sections, the badder parts are for the "angels" that are there chained up (Jude 1:6). We aren't really given a whole lot about Hell, seeing as the whole point of the Bible is to keep us from going there. Though a real locale is used as a metaphor for hell. I forget what it's called, but it was a place that was lawless. Child sacrifices, loud drums, lot's of bad stuff.

Also, Satan, in the Bible, isn't really described too well. He may have been an angel, or not. The whole thing about Good & evil, & duality, is based on the assumption that without the devil, there'd be no balance. Evil was basically created, so that there would be a clear difference between God's way, & the other ways. If it was never created, evil would be part of perfection, alongside with good.
i.e. Without Good, evil would be perfection; without evil, good would be perfection.

Post is already to long so, yeah.

Except that anytime a word seems to be randomly capitlized ('Voice'), it's referring to the Jesus/God.

Also, a sacrifice is not murder, and God wasn't tempting Abraham to kill his own son. He was testing Abraham's faith. When God concluded that Abraham was indeed faithful enough to sacrifice his own son (Think about it, would you even think about sacrificing your own son for somebody you've never seen? Probably not. This shows just how strong Abraham's faith was.) God provided a lamb for the sacrifice instead. Isaac was never really in any danger, and was always in God's hands.

Which proves another point, what on person understands as one thing, someone else will understand as another.

And for the record, giving someone else's life (for whom you have no say in, even if God told you it was alright, because it contradicts everything else God stands for) is murder. The taking of someone else's life, other than accidental or in self defense is murder in the 10 commandments.

Though it really is a moot point. Though it makes a big difference to certain people. Really, what matters is that people that follow the teachings & Laws of the Kingdon of Heaven (Christianity) are good, humble people.

Just for the record, Joker does not speak for me.

What a nice, sweeping generalization. That's like stating every Muslim wants to blow themselves up in a crowded building.

I like the more graphic version: Because God sees you mutilate an animal, spilling it's fresh blood upon the earth while the animal cries out in pain, He knows you are a faithful and true servant. Because otherwise, it might be unclear if you're faithful and true, and God better see something die by the end of the day, by George.

You certainly have this fixation with needing to be put to death, which is what I find most bogus about Christianity. It's like one big guilt complex. People wouldn't believe in Christ if they weren't already convinced that they're worthless pieces of shit that deserve to die. It goes like this:

A) You were born into sin, therefore your life is worthless and you deserve to die regardless of how you live your life.

B) If you accept Jesus as your Savior and give your life over to Him, your soul is now everlasting.

You must believe A in order to go onto step B. This means Christianity can appeal only to those who feel they were born into sin and deserve to die regardless of their actions in life. In other words, Christianity's fundamental basis is rooted in the absolution of imaginary guilt (aka original sin). I've never felt this imaginary guilt, and I've never felt that anyone "should be put to death" simply because they were born. Christianity: claims that everyone deserves to die for no apparent reason while simultaneously claiming to be the most loving of Religions. :tpg:

Well, that's the thing - we weren't all sitting in a room together. We all live our own separate lives and are confronted with different difficulties. For example, if you're an attractive person, you will have a greater burden of temptation when it comes to adultery than an ugly person. That doesn't mean that you don't know as well as I do that it's wrong, but you may end up justifying it for your own pleasure. And maybe you're a charismatic guy. You start leading people and forming your own community.

It's really not hard to imagine how people who start out the same way can end up split. Think about the people you hung out with in high school. How much different are they now than they were when you knew them?

About the "how do we know" questions. On my side of the debate, I take the Bible as a given and go about trying to show how it's plausible. So, I take "we were made in God image" as a given and I try to make sense of what it means first and then show how it is true. Every debate has to work this way. You can't prove anything without accepting something to be axiomatic first. It's not really circular reasoning; it's just faith.

The whole topic of God's image is one that I find really interesting, myself. I've given it, particularly, a lot of thought over the years.

Maybe society created God.

You can not deny the possibility!

(Also, for more topics such as the determination of "good" and "evil," you'd do well to read a lot more than just the Bible. Nature essentially sets forth a code which we are bound to as creatures. There is one thing on this planet we can never lasso - nature.)

Sounds like religion to me. Are you asserting religion as fact?

Depends.

How are we defining "fact."

And no - nature is not religion. At all. I am without religion. I am just an observer.

Nature is not, but perhaps your beliefs about nature are.

Tell me what you know about my beliefs, sir. I assure you they aren't in any ancient books or archived texts. =/

Oh... because religion didn't exist before books. Whoops!

Religion has been SPREAD VASTLY because of books, yes. World's most printed book in history, sir.

Anyways, answer the question. What do you know about my beliefs? Anything? At all? Do you care?

Think about where I am going with this.

What do you really know about my beliefs? It's not quite as close to common knowledge as you might think. A book does not make a religion. What about Animists and Shamen?

Ok Sass'm, I know little to nothing about your beliefs.

But now that you have piqued my curiosity, enlighten us.

Also, for the record, I was talking about more trivial things, like who was talking to Abraham as being moot. Heck, Solomon & Paul both basically said the same thing I just did about what really matters.

Which is another thing about religions in general. Lots of pople claim to be one thing or another, & never ever do any type of studying to actually see if what they really believe, is really what they believe. That goes for all religions. It's rare you find a person who has actually went so far as to question what they believe, & has done some foundational work.

For example, in my particular faith, there are people who are surface readers & pulpit learners, never thinking for themselves. Basically people that listen agree & go on with there lives. This has lead to many people to believe things that are never even in our Bible, i.e. Hell is fire & brimstone & the Devil is there, if you believe in Jesus you'll get "Raptured" up to heaven, you'll speak unintelligible jibberish & it will be from God himself. I could go on, but you get the point.

For example, Muslims. Muslims believe that whatever a prophet of Allah says, has to be true. They consider Jesus a prophet of Allah. By that reasoning, since in the gospel accounts of Jesus, he declares himself God in the flesh, they would have to accept him as such. Not that they do, but that's how it would go if they followed every point their belief states.

Also, Sass, I'm not to familiar with your faith, naturist I think you said a few posts back. Gaiaism I believe, or something else? Either way, I'm interested in hearing about it as well. This is a theological discussion. On that note will agree that, in a way, God is created by society. Basically whatvever a person believes becomes their own reality. Have you ever tried to tell someone something only to have them tell you your wrong & their right, even though you know that it's true. Pretty big generalization, I know, but hopfully you get the gist.

Thats a complicated question. I don't think I could write it all down like you'd expect someone to write it all down. I've been kicking the thought around for a while (why I took so long to respond) and I really don't have faith or anything in any omniscient thing.

I believe in nothing, really. Because "to believe in" implies you put faith into something. So I guess I can honestly say I don't have faith in much.

I can, however, observe. And I can learn from my surroundings and find some undeniable truth in them.

For instance:
Man does absolutely nothing altruistic 99.9% of the time. I am still not decided on whether or not its all of the time. He is a very selfish creature, and where he can stand to gain, he will try his hardest for it. Like a true Earthling. ^_^

Another example:
Man desires control. This is caused by the ability to reason. The ability to reason originates in something I would rather really not go into here. I have my reasons. I am sure you can understand.

Man is uncomfortable with living as an animal. He sees a distinct separation between himself and animal - again, from the ability to reason.

They say the ability to reason is our survival technique. I think its a flaw in evolution.

But yea. I am a completely faithless person. This doesn't make me a BAD person. I abide by what *I* feel is right and wrong. I don't feel the need to have someone or something else think for me. I have a brain. I intend to use it.

Hey all! I was just reading a bit of Nietzsche, and I wanted to see if there were any current discussions on that branch of knowledge. I was about to make a seperate thread (As Philisophical discussion is varied enough from theologoical dissertions that it would warrant seperate discussion thread), but then I read Sassafrass's comment here, which seemed like a good springboard for questions I personally had. If this goes well I may well in fact still make a seperate thread, but for the mean-time:

WARNING: REQUIRES ATTENTION-SPAN. tl;dr people do not even attempt this clusterfuck of a post.

Interesting how I was just reading Nietzsche, who as some may or may not know was a proponent of pseudo-athiestic ideas, or at least challenging the existing (At his time) belief systems that major religions were throwing at the masses (I.E., "God is Dead", "The Superman", etc.,), and as a result, had little belief in a god, at least from his writings (I'm not that familular with his personal beliefs, so if I'm wrong on that, disregard this first observation).

I'll play devil's advocate for this, which my response relates to your below statement as well: I have a theory, (rather then a personal opinion), as I am not sure if I find it something I can cling to as a self-evident truth of this...but first a prolouge to set-up the basis for this theory: 'Faith' by traditional definition is what as described to be the opinion or shared near-fact (As Fact is also held in definition to be secular, I'll get to that in a moment) of what, in the secular society, cannot be proved to be fact, and rather is of 'suspension of DISbelief' to certain 'truths' and 'guidelines' of how otherwise defined areas of life by Fact, are replaced with explanations that are not shared by the secular and scientific minds or communities. In shorter words: Faith defines for itself and for those who share a common strong-willed opinion that which science cannot or willnot try to claim as a Truth.

Now for the actual theory :p
*ahem*

I have a theory that Faith can also include the secular areas, which are not dominated by religion, but operate in different forms and methods, and because the mass agreed definition of Faith exludes the possabiliyt of this, Faith and Fact are mutually exlusive to eachother. Meaning that the Fact of Faith is also the Faith of Fact, the Science of Reason is a belief system to those who hold the Religion of Belief. I apoligize for the lack of definite seperate words for these seperate areas, but that's what happens when you try and be inquisitive and mindful at 2am, haha.

Continuing to another quote of Sass:
This is one of the basis and realms of Science and Fact, or Truth. "If I can see something, touch something, smell something and hear something, it must be existing and is real, and its state of existence to the world is a fact and is scientific" The previous is what in a longer form is what those holding themselves (NOT directed as you Sass) in Truth and Science have used to define (partially) what is real, what is truth, and is a tangent foundation of science.

Religion also has a basis for Truth, but in a different way and method. Most Religions (But not all) have a set goal. In Christinanity, Islam and Judaism (the Big Three) the goal is to ascend to Heaven upon mortal death after eliminating ones' Sins and join God in his kingdom for eternity. The 'goal' is also in Buddism: That you want to 'rise above' (Ascend) mortal imperfections (Sins) and rise above mortal death to a state of perfection and peace called Nirvana (Heaven).

But as I said earlier, my goal was earthly philosophy, not theology, so this shall be the extent of that specific religious reach.

Since Science and Religion (Or better to say, Fact and Belief, since Religion and Science are tenants of Fact and Belief) operate on different methods and views of defining what is real and what is truth, there is going to be a natrual adversion to operating in both methods.

However, Fact and Belief as I said above are tenants, meaning that they are ways for Religion and Science to operate... they are foundations for both 'ideologies' (For sincere lack of a better word)... and so there must be something more to what Fact and Belief are, rather then means for Religon and Science to operate.

This the core Theory: Fact = Belief, and Belief = Fact.
OR: Fact and Theory are intertwined and connected.

This leads me into the next comment by Sass:
The key term is selfish. Meaning that Man operates and drives to achieve things for his own wants and needs. Religion attempts to remove a portion of this way of operation by proclaiming that helping a fellow man is 'good' and is something to be rewarded for doing, (but only after going to heaven :p), and only when you do not personally engage in helping others for your own gain, for the reward... because that defeats the purpose. Man places a Fact in what he does because he knows that what he does is for himself... re-read that last part. "Because he knows". Why does he know? Because from birth he has been told that knowing something undisputed and undeniable is fact. When in fact, this fact is a belief Why? Read on.

Where does Belief come into play? When religon comes along and says "Hey, nothing is perfect, except God". God is both a Belief and Fact at the same-time. It is stated that god is perfect. Perfection which is the status (The 'goal')most desired by the followers of the major Religions. Perfection is then defined as Fact to be Abolute, meaning without other ways of operation. It simply IS. To have something as simply being, and without 'evidence' and 'Scientific Reason' to give reason to why something is defined and believed in is a fatal flaw of both Science and Religion, and a cornerstone as to why Fact and Belief are both still seperated.

The rest of Sass's comments are for another discussion, but I think I have made the point I wanted. with the exception of an example for real-world comparison:

In the comic stip "Calvin and Hobbes", there is a strip where Calvin proclaims that Math is a belief, that you simply hold true that two numbers, when added together 'magically just become a new number'. I laughed at this thought when I read it before, as Calvin then used that reasoning to exempt himself from doing the homework... but then I started to think seriously about what the six year old troublemaker said, and it rang true for the above theory: Some things which are so held-fast as a fact, may be infact (no pun intended) a belief or something you must have faith in.

Of course then one would argue "Well I can count to four on my fingers by adding two and two, so its OBVIOUSLY fact."

... So maybe we're completley wrong about both aspects, and maybe we need to redefine Fact and Belief...

... or maybe, just maybe (Dramatic pause here)

... Faith and Belief are two sides of the same coin.

Thank you, I obviously have flaws in logic in the above, but I was on a role, and now I need sleep, feel free to point out my mistakes, or even just reply back with your thoughts on my theory, if you'd like. Mainly, I just wanted to get a stab at something intellectual before I slept. I have little drive to make that thread now indicently, haha.

I'll come across as stupid if I say this, but then, I already am.

Almost all the things we've invented are based on belief(truths in our sense, but might not really be 'truth') that they will hold true, and if the same variables are repeated, the same thing will come out.

That's in a way, a sub-purpose of science, replication of an event, to our benefit. But since the more complex theories are based on much simpler, but generally accepted 'axioms', we tend to think we are building on solid foundation.

For instance, the '2+2=4 'statement'.' We think it's true, because our hands add up to that value. Then, from such a statement, we build it up, to more complex multiplications, and then to higher levels.

If suddenly 2+2 is no longer 4.

We believe in that statement, and we think it is unbreakable.

We use the same kind of logic when it comes to god. If it is what I see it is, and, when I do the same thing, I get the same results, I think it's true.

Eh.

Dark Nation, can I ask u?

What is the implication of Faith and Belief being 2 sides of the same coin? If it is proven to be from the same coin, how would that affect the discussion?

I agree with the Dark Nations, "theory." Recently I've started looking more into psychological sides of my faith, & of other faiths. There is this newer concept of a holographic universe, though it's conclusion most of the time I disagree with.

In my own stance on this theory is that whatever some one thinks, becomes fact to that person. If they believe it enough, it's real to them. That's one of the foundations of every religion, faiths, everyday things. Like when your hypnotized. I've seen some really weird crazy stuff happen when someone is in this state. You can tell someone they are a chicken & they'll do their best version of what a chicken is. If someone believes a person can heal them enough, they'll most likely get healed, regardless of the "healers" abilities.

That's a fact (or is it belief?) of humanity. That what you beleive in & have faith in, is ultimately what is real to you. Heck, speaking in my faith, there are numerous references to this type of thought in my own holy book. Jesus said himself, "by your faith, you've been healed." This not even considering pack mentality, but that's a whole other subject.

Ehh... well I suppose I was getting a bit sick of the whole pretentious attitude I had built myself up for in my discussion, but sometimes the brain does strange things. I think I was half-way being silly/dramatic to be dramatic

but... I guess if there was any implication, it would mean that Faith and Fact stem from a common source of origin, which is kind of obvious already. Two sides of the same coin is a tired expression, and I was tired, so it stacked itself against my logic, and so a better term was not available, haha.

Da Joker: So, are you suggesting that if someone were to find something as fact, and believe it in it so much, that while the science of why something occured wasn't explained, it was and had become real for them, in thier own personal reality?

Basically. I do believe that a persons mind is extremely powerful. So much so, that whatever that person believes is fact. One just has to look into a sanitarium. Although this type of example is the extreme. Propaganda works the same way. That's why thousands of people can be talked into doing horible things sometimes. I believe we're hardwired with this need for belief in something. Be it a God, be it nature, or even in instincts.

What a person believes in, if they truely believe in it, is their reality. Having said that, one persons belief will not change what exist in someone else's view, nor will it change the actual foundational reality. I hope that made sense. That foundational reality varying, which is why there are so many belief systems. My particular view of reality is a very down to earth, day by day Christian life, with Christian morals & faith in Christ Jesus & all he stood for, be it in the OT or NT. That is my reality, though it's governed by a set of rules & regulations in a book. I'm still learning what it says, means, & how to apply them.

Having just glanced in here, and seeing thanatos' quote of Dark Nation, I've been moved to share something with you folks. This feller here mentioned something striking (to me) about the relation of faith to fact. Perhaps a read would be worth something: http://www.baen.com/chapters/W200407...8288.htm?blurb