"Find Jesus"
 

A recent suggestion sparked this thread. (I'm in no way upset by the advice, by the way.)

Whenever a particularly religious person suggests their faith to another, many times the advice is "Find Jesus", or "Become saved by Jesus".

I'm probably opening up a can of worms here, but I gotta ask: Why Jesus?

Jesus is fine, but nearly every Christian faith maintains that it was God who created the heavens and earth, and that it was God who sent forth Jesus.

So why is the importance placed upon Jesus? Why not God, who is assumed to be the highest power imaginable? If you want to split hairs, most Christian churches believe that Jesus and God are, essentially, one and the same. So praying to Jesus is, vis-a-vis, praying to God.

It seems to me that this is placing Jesus before God, which seems backward, a "cart before the horse" deal.


I'm not looking for umpteen quotes from Scriptures as an answer to this. Nor am I willing to tolerate self-righteousness for long. All I want is a layman's explanation as to why many churches have seemingly replaced the concept of God, as a source of salvation, with Jesus.

It could be as simple as Jesus being a lot nicer. Tell someone to find God and they might concentrate on the old testament, where they'll discover God is a right cunt.

Jesus repackaged the message into one easier to swallow. That's the one Christians seem to want you to discover. Unless they're Westboro.

Jesus-God-Holy Spirit = classic tripartite Godhead concept. Yes, all three are God, but they represent different things.

God is all. The Holy Spirit is God as Creator (ie: moving over the waters to create Heaven/Earth). Jesus is God as Human, and represents the first time God came and directly contacted his creation; until this point, God made his will known by speaking to humans or sending angelic messangers. Jesus is the one who saves, not God directly. This article is kind of helpful.

And Jesus is, after all, what separates Christianity from the other religions that claim the same God (ie: Muslims and Jews). Of course Christianity is going to tell you to find Jesus. I'm a Christian myself, but usually I'm happy if people who are unbelievers come to accept the God concept in general.

Now, there is *one* misplaced emphasis that sparks controversy amongst Christian groups: the importance placed on Mary by Catholics, just because she's the mother of Jesus. Not being Catholic, I can't really give any answer to that. All I know is, Protestants don't really mention her much unless it's about Christmastime, whereas Catholics pray to her often. :confused:

Could be that Jesus is man, and was kind of sent as... Well, a "mediator." It is a lot easier to wrap our minds around the concept of a fellow human than an all-powerful, cosmic God. Maybe?

Edit: I've been thinking about it some more, and... Well, according to the Bible, believing in Jesus as the Savior is the requirement for getting into heaven. I've never heard of anyone believing in Jesus but not "God"; plenty of people, however, believe in God and not Jesus.

Jesus is meant to serve as a medium through which one can reach god, He was supposedly someone who walked around the people and learn about there lives, while God basically doesn't directly intervene with human life. I guess it's just a way of keeping some hierarchy =/.

The short answer is that the direct route to God requires you to follow the complete Mosiac Laws. Failure to follow said laws requires some sort of atonement (e.g. sacrifice). The idea behind Jesus is that he takes care of the atonement for you. You said you don't want scripture, but there's a parable that explains the concept pretty well. It involves a "just king" who finds out that his son has broken his laws. Being the just king that he is, he sticks to enforcing the law; yet, being the loving father that he is, he pays for the crime in his son's stead.

Alright, let's just admit it.

Jesus was a pretty rad dude compared to his "father." He was all about love and forgiveness, brotherhood and all that great hippie liberal shit.

But that Old Testament God? I mean, who the hell would want to ask him for anything? He seems more like a cranky old man who is frustrated with his kids for being a bunch of mentally-stunted assholes.

Jesus on the other hand; woo boy. The guy wasn't hostile at all! I mean, hell. He hung out with whores~ He would totally forgive you if you sinned.

The answer lies in the religion's name, really. Christ-ianity. The ones that follow the teachings of Christ, as opposed to the ones that follow the old Hebrew way or the one taught by Mahomet.

Same God, different visions, and a very different one on the Christian side, which is actually closer to things like Taoism than to the other 2.

Religions and their history are very complex things. It's too bad everyone thinks they're entitled to generalize on the few they think they know, nowadays.

There are two very common mistakes with regards to religion. Some people follow a religion without ever questioning or digging deeper, and as such completely miss the point of the religion they follow. Other people see this and are led to believe that the religion is just as backward and illogical as the folks who blindly follow it. That's why I ditched Catholicism a long time ago, and why I still refuse to identify with any specific religion.

I can understand telling people to look up Jesus. I mean, he really knew his shit, and he put some awesome ideas into the world. If he was here in corporeal form now, I know we'd be smokin' herb all over the place. BUT he isn't God, he just points the way. Thus, I really can't understand praying to him. There's a Zen saying that goes, "It is like a finger pointed at the moon. Do not look at the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly glory." The finger in that analogy represents the teachings themselves, but I think it fits here too.

If he wasn't God, then he was a madman and a blasphemer, no better than Jim Jones. Why would you understand looking up to someone like that?


And Crash, Minion was correct.

You find Jesus and not God directly because we are sinners and therefore not good enough to go to God directly. When you are "saved" means you have accepted Jesus' sacrifice, which you make you pure enough to go to God.

To put it simply, Its like taking a shower before you are allowed to jump in the pool.

Did Jesus shoot poison down little children's throats before he was about to be caught?

Didn't you ever read the parable about Jesus turning water into Kool-Aid?

The Christian god says he is the only god, period. But Jesus is cool 'cause he and god are pretty much the same person, somehow, even though they talk to each other as if they were separate entities. There's also the Holy Ghost, but he doesn't say much and nobody really knows who he is or what he does. Oh, and don't forget about the Virgin Mary.

Monotheistic my ass.

Why do people insist on lumping the Virgin Mary in with God/Jesus/Holy Ghost? Even Catholics don't worship her as a deity, they just think she's helpful to pray for help to.

Because it's sexist to exclude her while praying to a God, a man, and one of the undead.

No, I find this pretense to be both deceptive and absurd.

As far as I've been able to figure out, if Jesus existed, then he existed only to provide tangible context for God's already existing benevolence. It was only so that we'd believe what was already true.

It is said in the Bible (and no, I can't cite the book, paragraph and line, but it's there.) that all men (and women) were created equal in the eyes of the Lord. Hence, a sinner is just as beloved as someone who is sin-free; God sees no distinction between the two and the idea that anyone is unworthy is preposterous. Created in God and of God, right? To deny us is for God to deny himself.

Further, it also states that all sin is forgiven, even before reconciliation is ever sought. By this definition, all sin is absolved in the moment because God loves everyone equally. It is only ourselves who must come to terms with the harm we've cast upon others. It's then that we approach God for the forgiveness that was already and always ours.

Anyone can approach God. That's what prayer is. Heck, that's what going for a walk and appreciating the outdoors is. You can pray to Jesus if you wish, but there's never been any backlash dealt to anyone who chose to circumvent Christ and seek God directly. Having to use Jesus, or a priest, or anything as a conduit to reach God is unnecessary. Prayer isn't louder or more effective if done in a church or while clutching a rosary.

Jesus was likely a fine individual, but I suspect that most of his message has been malappropriated toward controlling the masses instead of enlightening them. This is perhaps a significant reason as to why I find the suggestion of "Find Jesus" to be a bit of misdirection.

Regarding Mary, I was raised Catholic. I know for certain that she is revered not as a deity but as a very significant Saint. Catholicism encourages prayer to Saints, as they're considered pure and just, and are to be trusted. I never bought into the idea that each Saint had autonomous dominion over a particular aspect of life, however. Rafael is the patron saint of artists, but in a pinch, Saint Agnes or Saint Christopher would be just as reliable.

It says in the Bible many times that God hates sin, and nobody that is a sinner will be accepted into Heaven, to be in the full presence of God. He does see a distinction, and that is everyone is a sinner, and falls short of the purity of God.

In the Old Testament, God required animal sacrifices to show obedience and ask forgiveness for one's sins. The New Testament changes that by asserting that Jesus was sent by God to be the ultimate sacrifice, so that nobody need do any of the things from the OT that were required of believers. Since Jesus was sacrificed, one must accept that sacrifice (ie: know Jesus) in order to show devotion to God. The origin of 'finding Jesus' is one thing I can quote:
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6. By doing this one also acknowledges one's innate sin -- after which you receive forgiveness for said sins. So in that respect, yes, God did absolve all people of sin.

However, the problem is, a lot of 'modern [protestant] Christians' take this idea and run with it, as if simply "finding Jesus" allows them to behave just like the rest of world, without really following the teachings of Jesus or the Bible. So...hypocrites. :annoyed:

This is true. It has always been true, and always will be. Usually the prayer is invoked in Jesus' name, but this is more of a convention than a rule. After all, Jesus is the one who said to "Pray like this: Our Father, which art in Heaven..." He never said to pray to him/through him. This is where Buddhism and Christianity have a similarity: neither man asked to be proclaimed a Deity or start a religion when they were on earth. Man created that.

Yes, I know that she isn't regarded as a deity. The everyday emphasis on her is just odd. Since Catholicism is such an ancient religion and absorbed so many different practices depending on where it was introduced, I've always accepted the whole "prayer to patron saints" thing to be a leftover of all the polytheistic religions Catholicism steamrolled over. Angelology as a religious idea is another example, praying to certain demigods rather than the to the Man himself.

I'm sorry, but I kind of giggled at this.

"I am God, infallable and awesome with power! Just, uh. Wait a second, here. Forget about that sacrifice business. I am going to send some guy down there, and he's gonna die so you don't have to get blood all over Earth anymore, k? Awesome. Glad we're clear on that."

I mean, am I alone in seeing the lol in that? I don't mean to offend. I'm just sayin'. ;_;

Also, I would probably never follow a guy who said "you can't talk to my dad without talking to me first, buddy."

Yeah, that unstable dichotomy between the Old Testament God and the New Testament God is a lot of the reason I don't accept the Bible as a qualitative authority.

During the period that I attended church, I could never get into the whole "Yay Jesus!" swing. He's just a guy, a guy who never once demanded to be worshipped. All he ever did was thank his Creator for every miracle he performed. Even Jesus deferred to God.

Jesus was a man with a message. His message was received perhaps best, but is no more significant than those of other messengers throughout history. Compare the word of Jesus to the words of Mohandas Gandhi, Voltaire, Walt Whitman, Galileo, Mother Teresa, Stephen Hawking or John Lennon. I like to think that God selects messengers more often than we realize. Studying these folks' histories is far more informative than reading the Bible may ever be.

That's as best as I can figure, because it makes a lot more sense than worshipping a man who never wanted praise in the first place.

No he didnt, but he did claim to be God as did Jim Jones. Thats bad enough.

I disagree that He was just a guy. He was God. At the least, you have to admit He claimed to be God. Therefore you would worship him.

John 8:58
58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

My own beliefs aside, the reason the focus is on Jesus, is that he kind of revamped the way the Jews thought things. Thus you had the branch from Judaism - Christianity which believed the teachings of Christ (or God the Son), and the Jews, who stuck more with the teachings of God the Father, because they didn't believe he was the Son.

A lot of what I'm trying to say can be found in the Sermon on the Mount, in the Gospel of Matthew. Things like (paraphrased) "You have heard that it was said, "do not kill your neighber." But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother is in danger of the fires of hell."

I'm pretty sure that doesnt mean simple anger (I mean Jesus even got pissed off at people) but probably harboring hatred & grudges & death wishes. So he kind of made things more down on a heart & soul level than just a physical level.

I know that's not the only way he revamped thinking, but that was just an example.

But regardless, that's why Jesus has the focus more than God.

I kind of disagree with the idea of the Trinity anyway. I think it puts far too much an idea of polytheism in people's heads. If they really are one person, why the idea of the Trinity? Why is it needed? If God is all powerful, why is it so hard to imagine that some aspect of him (Christ) came down to die for everyone's sins? So I guess I agree with the idea of the Trinity in principle, but not in practice. It's treated too much like they are completely separate entities, and I think it's more like three different functions of God.

Hmm. Interesting subject, regardless.

I found Jesus. Wow, he doesn't get around as much as he's claimed to.

And Super Jesus is full of LOL.

Exactly.

And for Crash and Sass, I'm simply answering the question. I don't really care if you think it's silly/idiotic/hypocritical/whatever. It's the answer to Crash's question, sans personal input. Have either of you read The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov? It's probably something you would appreciate, Crash, given your initial question and this comment:
And one of the best books in Russian and world literature, to boot.
:)

I still attend church, but I have also never been a "holy roller" or that sort. Actually, I often thought that Catholicism suited me more, since it's more ritualized and not so...off-the-wall...as a lot of Protestant churches (including most of the ones I was raised in). This is not to say I'm not religious, but there's a quote from a novel I read a few years ago that said, "Some men prefer to keep God close to their heart." I tend to agree with that.

Well, I'm a lifelong theological conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran who's interned at the Faith-Based Initiative office, studies religion and politics at a tough college, and am currently working at Focus On The Family (yeah, I know), so I'll try to offer a few brief, different views.

evangelism (for some)/marketing (sadly, for most): As has been said, Jesus is more palatable and has been portrayed more often "visually" to the average theological child than Jehovah or the Holy Spirit.

history: The short answer is that while the entire Trinity was stressed by early Church heads (especially to counter, ironically, the Jesus-only folk), those fricking western Europeans ruined it all when using political manuevering to preserve their state versions of Christianity.

politics: It's really easy to exclude the "intolerant" teachings of Jesus. It isn't for Jehovah and the Holy Spirit. When people of all political and religious stripes have to evaluate a program, some of Jesus' stuff is the easiest to sterilize for them.

theological: Jesus' years on Earth are the fulcrum on which the Old and New Covenants, the most important concepts that we can understand now in the Bible, rest.

practical: Since some churches measure success by congregation size/offerings and net baptisms, they take a bare-bones version of absolution to bring in new and old members each week. Justice and sanctification are left by the wayside.

So, it's said that Jesus' sacrifice changed the rules for getting into Heaven. So instead of all that Mosaic law, now all you have to do is supposedly realize the act which was committed, understand its purpose, and repent all of your sins based upon it.

I believe people tell you to "find Jesus", but really mean "repent upon the covenant established by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ."

Is that simple enough?

I agree...The Bible teaches that sin separates us from God. God is righteous and cannot tolerate sin because he is without sin. (Which is why he seems so angry and judgemental in the old testament.) Jesus was sent as the mediator to take all sin upon himself for those who believe in Him and repent, confessing their sins and making a change in their lives, to bring humankind back into a right relationship with God the Father. Taking their sin.
The reason the emphasis is on Jesus, is because he is the Saviour. The one to make man right before God. He's the mediator.

Gus Gus - Is Jesus Your Pal

Is Jesus your pal?
Do you call out his name,
when your concience is shivering?
Do you need someone too,
just like those people who
find peace in someone's promises?
You sure don't need my promises...
So come and sit on my box,
enjoy the view of this water,
where my lifeboat is sinking.
If you open your eyes,
take a look at this mess,
could you fake your reflection, child?
If you reach out for more,
you'll find nothing but sorrow.
'Cause knowledge is hollow.
And pride is hard to swallow.
So come and sit on my box,
enjoy the view of this water,
where my lifeboat is sinking.

I definitely believe Christ was and still is the real deal.

Let nothing challenge your faith.

There are MANY mexican/whatever catholics that almost seem to worship the Virgin Mary.
Even in their cars.

Jesus is unimportant, it is Eris you should be worrying about.

A SERMON ON ETHICS AND LOVE

One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES?

"O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!"

WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON'T SOUND WELL.

"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?

"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."

OH. WELL, THEN STOP.

At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species.

I think Jesus was a cool cat...Christianity isn't necessarily a good image into which Jesus is superimposed, due to the conflicting interests of Jesus perception of existence vs. that of the establishment. In a way, it seems to me that the real ideal of Jesus has been raped by the institution of Church.

My lord Jesus will always be oppressed on-line.

Let's face facts Christianity gives us so much freedom most people tend to hate on it yet they love freedom. Face it that if he never came that we'd be a supremely oppressed society, women would be supremely oppressed almost slave like, women benefited a lot from the coming of Christ.

If people don't find Jesus or want him at least you can root for him because we are taught compassion and patience and compared to Muhammad and his followers they are going to oppress the world.. they are going to give people the ultimatum one day it's either follow or die. They're already taking Europe over, yet we still squabble about Jesus being a fake and all the Christian affairs that plague us we just don't have the unity. That's why the crusades were a failure.

All our inner cores wants to be forgiven.. we want peace and love we don't want to kill we're considerate and compassionate that's all our lord represents.
Everything he says is what our inner cores want to hear even if you're not even a religious person it just clicks.

It's saddening that Jesus is so great but his church suffers because we as his followers just aren't humble and considerate to our brothers and sisters that we tend to scare off the new. Or the Catastrophes of our lives make him negate him. It's sad that the disobedience or negation of one man can bring down so many.

I pray for this world.

It is now time to close this thread and ban all of its posters.

I've never understood this either although Catholics DO worship her as a deity in many circles. There is actually a nice little organization called "Sociedad Mariana" (The Society of Marians) where we live and both of my parents are a part of it. It's basically a conclave of people who believe that the Virgin Mary (the Mexican version) was the mother of Christ and as her mother was just as important a figure in the Holy Family as Jesus and God. I try to rationalize it myself, but I never really get anywhere.

Trust me honey, he was "oppressed" enough when he got nailed to a 2x4, I think we can let some shit slide considering you probably don't fully grasp the meaning of the word "oppressed".

So like... Jesus was the first dude to be tortured for standing up what he believed in? Was he the last? I HAVE LIVED LIES MY ENTIRE LIFE. :gonk:

Finally... Something smart out of your thick skull. We CAN root for him because a genuinely good character on paper.

... and there you go... Pretty much turning every point you mentioned before this statement into a complete spectacle. "HEY GUYS. JESUS WAS COOL. HE TAUGHT COMPASSION AND FORGIVENESS. BUT FUCK THEM SAND NIGGERS! THEY GON' KILL EVERY MOTHERFUCKER ON THIS PLANET WHILE YOU GUYS DON'T SEE THE WAY OF JESUS. CAN WE NOT ARGUE NOW?"

I pray that you fix your neurological disorder.

You know, I don't really see myself as the religious type (read: I fucking hate organized religion) but I agree with a lot of the teachings that Christianity (or pretty much any major religion) tries to impose as a form of self-improvement. Respect for self and others, respect of life, brotherhood, tolerance, honor thy family; these are all things that ANY rational human being, regardless of faith structure or religious denomination, can at least agree to as being fundamentally good things. Having said that, I think that is precisely why Jesus is quoted as the de-facto standard for all of these teachings. The man is universally (at least in writing) recognized as having stood firmly for all of these things.

I personally don't find any use for Christianity but I know PLENTY of people who are better people because of it. Because they see in Jesus a role model of how they should model their lives to be better people themselves. I can certainly see the value of that; even if I'm no bible-thumper myself.

Hmm... Tempting... I have a couple in mind already. Because IMMA GONNA OPPRESS ME SOME CHRISHUNS.

Hey! what happened to that one post by the guy who pulled out a bunch of scripture dealing with women? I think those passages summed up the Bible's stance on women pretty nicely.

On topic though, I don't recall who, but someone here on this board once ava lilly once summed up the stance some of us here take: we don't have a problem with Jesus Christ, its his fan club that we have a problem with.

ava lilly. <3

That woman is wiser than all of you bible-thumping fucks put together.

I ask, truly what sort of freedom is "Do this or go to Hell."? No person in his sane mind would desire an eternal torment, so the default choice becomes obedience. That's not freedom, it's extortion. Get your perspective straight.

An adulterer exercises more freedom than a man who clutches his rosary all day, for he is not bound by dogmatic law.

Yes, thank God we've eradicated all oppression from this world! If you'd crawl out from beneath the shelter of your religion, you'd see that women are horribly mistreated still. In third-world countries, they're subjected to the worst ritualistic mutilations imaginable. In the Middle East, women are second-class citizens deemed unworthy of opinion. In North America, women are still misogynized and objectified as part and parcel of our obsession with beauty and pop culture.

I'm glad Jesus fixed all that.

Hey, they only learned from the Christians who pioneered the art of bloodthirst in the name of righteousness.

Glass houses, you know.

So, it's basically the same rhetoric the Christians have been spewing for centuries?


No, it's quite obvious that we do not want peace and love. We understand these to be desirable ideals but we, as a collective, do not choose them. They don't serve our purposes. Eventually, several centuries from now, perhaps we'll understand these things enough to make higher choices. For the time, all this war, disease, poverty and hate is serving a very valuable function: we're experiencing it firsthand. You have no idea how crucial this truly is for a society's growth. Without the darkness, light has no context.

They don't teach you that in church though.


If the church is suffering due to arrogance and mistrust, it is these things of which the church itself is guilty, and not its people to each other. The Christian church, so bound in its archaic ways, has failed to adapt to the modernization of this world. Where once many phenomena could only be explained as acts of God, now they've been explained by science. Instead of celebrating this, instead of thanking God for science, empyrical thought is denounced. How ridiculous! By distancing itself from our increased awareness of basic, scientific truths, it's Christianity that seems remote and out-of-touch with this realm.

And there is the fundamental error. Me, I give thanks for this world.

You hit the nail right on the head here - that's the main problem I have with all the churches I have ever attended. It's like sitting in a time bubble, where time stopped somewhere in the 70s or 80s, and they think that there's some huge war between religion and science, and there can't be any reconciliation. IMHO they can fit quite well together, and should, but as you said, instead of thanking God for human ingenuity, scientific thinking, learning, and understanding, they sit around and say that such things are evil and designed to distance us from the real God.

I don't want to sound like a thumper here, but in my personal experience, science has only ever drawn me closer in my faith. That's not meant to be some sort of religious plea for everyone here to get saved, so don't take that the wrong way, that's meant to provide an example as to how horribly mixed up the church is.

There are many different ways of thinking that provide many different world views, and sometimes people can look at the same thing and come to two very different conclusions. The fact of the matter is, Christians need to realize that some people are perfectly happy the way they are, and that no amount of scare tactics are going to get them "saved." I think that kind of defeats the whole purpose of salvation and is quite anti-biblical at that - if you just believe in the resurrection so you don't go to Hell. Not a strong foundation.

And I think many Christians would do well to dwell on the possibility that they may be wrong. I believe I'm right, sure, but I also wrestle with the fact that there is a possibility that I'm wrong. It's how you live your life with that in mind that really defines who you are. If I'm only being Christian to avoid Hell, or other simple & base reasons, that's going to show. If I'm a Christian because of something deeper, I'm probably going to be satisfied with what the world views as "restrictions & rules" and that's going to show up in light of the idea that I may be wrong about the afterlife, and the whole spiritual realm.

I've especially seen this come out in religious debates on this forum and others - those who can't deal with that fact that they are wrong deal with other people, and challenges towards their faith very poorly, and often make complete idiots of themselves.

Just ask yourself: If your beliefs are wrong, could you still be happy with how you are living as a result of your religion? Are you just doing it to get rewarded in the end?

Wow. Sorry to fly off the handle and get preachy there. It's just something I've been dwelling on recently.

Hrrmm...

The Jewish pray to God. Muslims pray to God. Oh, but they've been slaughtered by the millions by *ahem* 'other' religions throughout history. :erm: Yeah, that must be the wrath of God, that...

What? God, don't try and be deep if you're a bloody idiot. The wrath of god, muslims and jews? Try making some fucking sense next time. This is what, a thinly veiled "there is no god because bad things happen to believers" argument? Or maybe just blatant idiocy? Either way, not impressive. Because Christians -haven't- been slaughtered for their beliefs? Atheists haven't faced persecution for theirs? Get a grip.

Yeah, fine, it was too vague, I agree.

The point was that I've been told several times before that Christianity is the only way because the Christian countries and peoples are the only that have never really been dealt any "wrath of God"; the irony is that said "wrath of God" events include Christian initiated events like the crusades, the holocaust, etc.

And it wasn't deep it was sarcastic.

***

Why "find Jesus"?

:><: I think things have just been too blown out of proportion. Worshiping Christ as God Himself seems to just kinda miss the mark a little bit, doesn't it? I don't think the whole point was to end up praying to him, and becoming a "united servanthood of Christ". It just makes more sense to follow him and his life as an example for your own; something to strive for, and nothing more.

The idea of God, if he exists, leaves little of an example to look up to. Who knows why he does/did the things he's done? Jesus' life and decisions make a lot more sense to the common man, as it's just a wee bit easier to relate to another man, rather than, say, an omnipotent being.

Far too many people today use their Christianity to supplant their moral "holier than thou" attitude.

As sad as this seems, it's completely true on so many levels. Nobody advances anything by simply denying the presented argument without any other reason than "because God said so :(". Frankly, I'd be rather interested in the theological rebuttal to many scientific facts. But there is none. So why can't they accept that they're wrong about some things?

I just want to say 2 things.

#1 The Son of GOD, whom is The Messiah Christ Jesus is not " GOD ". I dont know how hard it is for people to understand that Jesus Christ was " sent by GOD ", thus nobody can send thierself. The Word Trinity is not even found in none of the bibles, neither is the term. Jesus Is the son of GOD, not GOD.

#2 Anyone who reads the bible is suppose to hold their faith in GOD & Jesus Christ, Jesus is the savior of this world, so to ask why Jesus is kinda weird to ask. Everbody already knows GOD is comes first, but from the bible viewpoint, Jesus makes it clear that before you can know GOD, you have to know me( Jesus ) first.

PEACE

So you're saying there is something God is incapable of doing? And it's something as simple as sending a part of himself to earth? Some believer you are.

PEACE

*drops the mic and walks off stage*

So it is found?

Pwned.

*applause*

Yeah, I could say alot in this topic, and I might try to devote sometime to it. But put simply, 90%+ of all "Christians" have severe misconceptions of what the Bible says, let alone what it means. No one actually reads the thing. I mean, no one really takes time to read it, and even when it is read, reading it without major preconceptions or biases RARELY ever happens.

I dont care what anyone says, Jesus claimed to be God and that by making Him the forgiver and leader of your life, sin is forgiven and heaven is gained. That simply is Christianity, not any of the extra bullshit that people add about "wrath of God", or dismissal of science, or the judgementalism that prevades most Christians minds, or "god hates fags", or one country is favored over another. All these statements are made by people using the Bible and the Christian religion to push their own agendas.

Just to answer the Virgin Mary thing, I think it's just one of those pagan aspects of Christianity. It indeed doesn't really stick anywhere in the core symbol of Christianity and is with many others the expression and remnant of ancient faiths and beliefs that always came naturally to man.

You often read from so-called "pagans" (no, it's not a religion btw, dumbfucks) that omg lol Christians stole all their saints and feasts from "pagans" and all that jazz. Personally, maybe especially as a Catholic, I've always cherished the reunion of paganism with that higher spiritual conception of existence that indeed is Christianity. This is, to me, the acceptance of the duality of man. It's quite interesting to compare the practice of Christian cults in Africa and South America, for example.

I believe in Urza and Akroma.

When Jesus came to the earth He died and rose again on the third day to save our sins. He said to get to my father, which is God, you need to come through me, Jesus. That is why I belive we pray "Lord Jesus" and not "Lord God." Some people do pray both ways though and it really doesn't matter as long as you are speaking to Him, since He is one in the same.

Gotta find Jesus to find God as he is the intercessor:

John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

That whole Holy Trinity deal is tricky business.

You know what though? You at least knew where the Old Testament God stood on shit. He didn't like you. Plauge! He didn't like that city? Salt!

Jesus was probably licking toads or licking LSD off red woolen shirts in men's bathrooms or cramming drugs up his own ass. Anyway, I'm sure you've all seen what assholes potheads turn into when they have the munchies and get crumbs all over the couch. Fuck that shit.

Propped for some of the best blasphemy this side of the Mississippi. :tpg:

I'm not an expert on religion, but the whole "find Jesus" thing is a very American saying, and I don't want to go on and on about its ideological roots here (the history, the frontier, etc.).

My friend once put it this way: "I found Jesus. He was behind the couch."