Fallout 3 - Guns with Oblivion
 

Scans of the Gameinformer Article.

I'm just gonna copy what I told Acer for this one:

After reading the article it just gets worse. The new water chip quest comes in the form of Liam dissappearing and you have to go find him. Super Mutants are around "every corner" and cars apparently have enough free energy to create miniature nuclear explosions. Not only is it stupid, it's a canon issue, since the Highwayman was a one-of-a-kind fusion cell-powered auto.

The best thing I can say about it, is that it looks better than Oblivion.

I think you forgot to post actual infomation about the game. Here's a copy-paste from a NeoGAF thread:

The character creation sounds interesting, although it also sounds painfully non-skippable. I HATE long, non-skippable tutorials. I guess I can deal with that, though.

I hope there's not too much focus on gathering food and water like it sounds. Yes, it's in genre, but for a game like this it'll just serve as an annoying distraction, along with weapon deterioration. Really, wilderness survival was just an afterthought in the first two Fallout games. Sounds like they're just using it as an alternative to stimpacks, though. Free healing, at the price of sucking up radiation. Might make an interesting spin on things.

VATS system sounds silly. People are just going to play it as an FPS anyway. It'll encourage people to neglect their arms skills and fight in real time constantly, shooting people manually instead of bothering with hit chances in the first place. The alternative is to enforce arbitrary misses (crosshairs are on his chest, but the game makes you miss at point blank anyway), which would also be stupid.

It's one of those things that's not going to work at all, because it clearly wasn't a decision borne of devoted gameplay design. It's there solely to appease the No Mutants Allowed crowd whether it works or not, and nothing good ever comes of doing that. This is where I start to have serious misgivings.

Heh, I like Bethseda being evasive about whether or not child NPCs will be killable. They're probably still negotiating with the ESRB about whether letting the player do that will bump the game up to an AO rating.

I just don't know what to think about the nuclear catapult. On one hand, it sure sounds wicked fun. On the other hand: what is this, Unreal Tournament? I was pretty sure those big bulky plasma rifles defined the upper limits of how much you could strain credibility.

It looks okay, but I can't say I'm filled with confidence in Bethseda after reading this. I think they'd have been better off making a more generic post-apoc game, rather than actually calling it Fallout.

So.

Since this will use the Oblivion engine (and apparently made on console conditions eek), does that also mean all the characters will have those hideous, bloated, round faces that was the "oblivion look"? Bloom is certainly in place.

Bioshock was just given an M, and shooting evil little children is a fairly integral part of the game. Keep your hopes up.

The premise of Bioshock's children might have given it the go ahead. I think the idea of just killing random children might not fly, but your point is still quite strong in lieu of this.

Fallout 2 wasn't exactly this bastion of brilliance. At least to me, though I wouldn't exactly relegate it to "It's my opinion" status either. So, while I know that Elder Scrolls is like That Game That's Text Filtered/Madden/GTA/Something Negative Not Necessarily Because It's a Franchise Game if that's your fuckingthing*GASP FOR AIR NOW*... I could think of far worse things. Like, no Fallout 3 (in which I wait for anyone and everyone to pop in with a "THAT'S BETTER") or EA Games Presents "Fallout 3" or some other copout scenario.

Things look decent at this point, I can still play through Fallout 1 and obviously my take on game and or the universe isn't so seemingly rigid as some around here.

Man, shut up! I would rather have no Fallout 3 than this pile of shit! Did you see the fucking vault suits? They're not tight enough! They're baggy as fuck! What, is the vault dweller some fucking wigger now? That is not the canon! THE DEVELOPERS have a goddamn OBLIGATION to give me a proper sequel to Fallout (don't get me started on Fallout 2, that shit is not canon, they had some Monty Python shit in that shit), I am a serious fucking gamer and have a right to that. Bethesda has no right to do this shit that they are doing. Man, I'm not even going into what I think about PipBoy having digital interface, or I'd have a fucking brain aneurysm right fucking here and now. Shit, son. Bethesda is fucking us so hard, and you're okay with that? Get out. Yes, goddamn, no Fallout 3 would be infinitely better than this... travesty.

Have a props, bubs.

"Everything is fine. Nothing is broken."

The battle system sounds extremely retarded. There's no way in hell this is going to work out as intended.

I think it's possible to enforce "arbitrary misses" without being ridiculous. For example, you can make it so that people can hit the head if they aim well, but it's far less likely to actually do a critical if they don't call the shot. And perhaps you can make it so that the crosshairs shrink or you suffer less recoil as your skill rises. It can also be like Counter-Strike, where you don't actually see recoil but the bullet paths are affected by various factors.

This ends up forgiving people for trying to play it as an FPS early on (Where they'll mostly be using pistols) but will penalize them when they get to better guns that will either suffer from recoil and "shakiness" (Rifles, SMGs) or firing rate (Shotguns). And did they say anything about whether it locks on? Because if there is lock on and it's on by default, it'd be far easier to enforce weapon effectiveness based on skills.

Yes, Aardy, no Fallout 3 is better than something that turns the themes of the original on its head. The skin-tight vault suits were a mainstay of the EC comics that Fallout's art was inspired by. A departure from that just makes the new game seem much more generic.

This could've been titled Apoc Romp and chances are the NMA crowd would've been excited about it.

They could effectively do it the same way as Deus Ex, but the whole VATS thing sort of implies a dual system for ballistics.

VICTIM COMPLEX.

It's true that you get disappointed in some ways if it bears the Fallout name. But without it, we wouldn't get things like the Pipboy or SPECIAL or whatever, because then the developers would say, "Well, let's not plagiarize Fallout, let's do something completely different!" when it's Fallout that the fans want. Yeah, both the fans and those coming into the series with this new one are going to be a little disappointed ("Why can't I fight this Super Mutant at level one, this is gay!"), but you have to realize you're going to have to give some things up as a series progresses and developers find they have to appeal to a wider audience.

Yeah, I don't completely like it either, but for every little thing we nitpick about being out of place, I'm sure Bethesda is going to try hard to remind us that we are indeed playing Fallout (In the same way that someone making a video game based on something they like will try to reference their favorite bits a lot) if they really are fans of it.

Since when is plagiarization positive? =/

Vault Boy and SPECIAL are both iconic, but that doesn't mean that they should be whored out like a soft drink just because. Being Fallout didn't make Brotherhood of Steel any more of a success.

I'd really love to be proven wrong, but we already know they've turned the series to a completely different genre. Considering Bethesda's awful track record, I see little reason to have faith.

But.

But.

RADIANT AI~

blol. We'll see how this goes. Wish me luck in constructing my level 20 half-orc Porn Star.

I like how they said they fixed it for guns but didn't actually say that they've fixed it. Any questions will be ignored, though, since Ashley and Gstaff both indicate that all information is going to come through magazine exclusives and press releases.

What fuckhead decided to put the Final Fantasy name infront of this game called Tactics. Those jackasses totally ruined the series and bastardized everything we know and love about these games. There's no way this game can be any good since it's not the same exact thing I've played before.

What fuckhead decided to give Final Fantasy to Capcom. Those jackasses are going to totally ruin the series and bastardize everything we know and love about those games. There's no way this game can be any good since it'll just be another 2D platformer/action game that I've seen a million times.

Does anyone have copies of the scans? I'm a big fan of the series and I'm interested to see it.

Wait what are you referencing here?

Don't fee-- too late.

Aesthetically, I'm inclined to agree with Brady. It'd be stupid to deny facts, yet what bothers me is hating the game before playing it. Especially since meme has a point about how it's "not the same." Though to be less ridiculous, Fallout Tactics was still faithful to the visual design of... well, Fallout. I'm not saying that people's pre-analysis of the game is wrong or that Bethesda has a perfect track record but christ, I would like to play the game first. Guess there is something to say about being skeptical and pleasantly surprised, though.

I like how FFT wasn't actually marketed as a Final Fantasy sequel. It's good to see you put in some effort tho. :333:

Tactics was post-apocalypticky like Fallout, but the problem was that the art direction was the post-apocalyptic near future from the contemporary perspective. With M-16s, Humvees, and all that other junk and crap.

Also the Super Mutants were terrible.

The great thing about being a pessimist is that you can never be disappointed.

Unless you're proven right. :(

Most people don't count it as a "traditional" Final Fantasy, though. At least it was common not to way back when.



I imagine that it didn't garner quite as much criticism as Bethesda current thing, though.

Well, it isn't. Neither is Tactics traditional Fallout.

It was pretty easy to get over since it wasn't an actual Fallout sequel, and I still think it's kinda fun. (don't tell NMA)

Back then Roshambo was an administrator. Rosh was to the Tactics developers as The Incredible Hulk is to a generic cityscape. He's even referenced in the game as a bitter old man, but apparently also had something to do with reversing a bad design decision.

I'd like to say people saw this coming from a mile away, but the NMA thread had 400+ comments. Their general IQ took a nose dive a little over a year ago.


Also, the scans were posted in this Something Awful thread. Get 'em while they last.

This is a pretty good point right here. This game they're presenting, if it were being sold as an unrelated post-apocalyptic game, people could accept it as being Fallout 3 in spirit and be done with it. Actually making it a sequel, with the name and everything, puts a bit more of a burden on them to be true to the originals. You don't just take someone else's established series and then go way into left field with it.*

It's a bit early to completely condemn the game, of course. The nuclear catapult, nuclear exploding cars, and the whole VATS thing aren't filling me with confidence, but there'll be more to the game than just what was shown in an alpha-build press teaser and trying to win over the NMA crowd is an exercise in futility anyway. I'll wait for more information before passing judgement - I just won't be holding my breath.

*No I'm not saying it's that bad, just using it as an obvious example.

I was getting at the fact that nowadays, people are more apt to put it on their "Favorite Final Fantasy" list without reservation as opposed to the *not really a Final Fantasy* type treatment it received way back when... point taken, though. I don't see Fallout Tactics ever gaining that kind of status. It just isn't a "Fallout" like 1 and 2, hard fact.

Like I needed to tell you.

... I just want to sneak in here that I never said it wasn't criticized. It probably goes without saying, but just feeling insecure and all. So... uh, generally, I don't take fandoms too seriously. Mainly because there's a lot of sound and fury, but usually very little of substance at the end of the day. "I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY'RE DOING THIS! I MEAN, I WOULDN'T HAVE A FUCKING CLUE ON WHAT TO DO AS FAR AS ANYTHING COMPETENT GOES, BUT HOLY SHIT I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS!" If the NMA starts speaking in unison, referring to itself like "The Many" from System Shock 2 does, I'd probably be very unsettled if I were Bethesda.

Good on Roshambo if he did get something changed on the game. I wasn't there, but I'll take the good word for what it's worth.

Getting some mileage out of that new membership, eh?

Read post above mine.

Read my post.

Replace Final Fantasy with Fallout and Capcom with Bethesda.

Get the god damn joke. *sigh*

Dude, that's not cool.

That's never cool.

Rosh used to be a pretty intimidating guy and actually worked in the gaming industry. Now he's making his own RPGs with a writing team.

What really keeps Tactics from entering a "favorites" list, is partially because there's only 3 Fallout games worth playing ;) and because in it's own genre it's not that hot. FFT is still a great tactical RPG, but Tactics is still overshadowed by Jagged Alliance.

Has Capcom ever done any work with the Final Fantasy franchise?

And Brady, FFT had chocobos and a guy named Cid (and possibly moogles, I forget), that makes it as much as a Final Fantasy as anything else up until FFX-2. :p

Yeah, FFT did in fact have moogles, only they were enemies instead of allies (well, you COULD make them your allies if you really wanted to, though). I wouldn't call it a Final Fantasy though, more like a Tactics ogre in a FF shell. Still, one of the better games ever made imo.

You kind of missed his point. And that is that is a company with a track record of making a certain kind of product over and over taking another property which is completely different and slapping their robotic touch is going to get expected results and, well, expectations. Capcom taking FF7 and turning it into a Megaman clone but with angst (which btw probably would be interesting but you get the idea, playing as Barret might finally give his machine gun meaning) would be similar to Bethesda taking Fallout and turning it into Oblivion with guns. It doesn't mean it'll be complete garbage but expect knee-jerk reactions based on the company's recent actions and now this visual evidence.

Eh, Capcom got the rights to make the handheld Zelda games and they turned out fine. You're automatically assuming a company will get their mitts on something and try to just transform it into a game they've already made. That's pretty silly.

While I admit Capcom did a fine job with Minish Cap (and to an extent with the Oracle games), this doesn't apply to Bethesda. If Capcom's Zelda games were the first foray to 3D and changing the system and structure dramatically, maybe.

As it stand, I'm feeling the same as I was when Ubisoft announced Rainbow Six 4: Lockdown. It looked awful, it sounded awful as a concept, but not because I just felt opposing for the sake of it, but because it ditched everything that had made the originals special in the first place except original setting, and compromising the rest. And in the end it was a terrible sequel. Sure, it was a competent, linear FPS game made for consoles. But it didn't have what made Rainbow Six special.

I think these days, I would worry more about the development studio that gets their hands on a title than anything else. For everything we've learned about game development, I sometimes thing... think that referring to the main company itself is something of a side-show to people who probably know something of substance about this business itself. The kind of eye we get into development these days is great, especially in comparison to the kind of reaching I remember doing in 1999/2000 on gaming. And especially now because I can do a much better job at faking an informed opinon.

I'm of the mindset that Ken Levine would make a killer Fallout 3, based off what Bethesda has just shown us. Doesn't make it a good idea, but I still like games guys.

I was confused because the post above yours referenced a real precedent (Sort of) that turned out well, i.e. Final Fantasy being given to Quest people to develop the spin-off game Final Fantasy Tactics. Then you basically made the exact same post for some reason (At first I thought you were giving a counter-example but I guess you were just reinforcing his) and used Final Fantasy and Capcom. Unlike the post above, I couldn't think of when this actually happened, and thus I asked what game you were making a reference to, that's all.

Also, no need to be a condescending jackass about it, Jesus.

Hey did you guys hear they're making a Mario RPG?!? That is a deviation from the established Mario formula and therefore inherently wrong!

And it's being developed by SQUARE ugh. Square made FINAL FANTASY MYSTIC QUEST, which sucked! Therefore this will ALSO suck. This game is going to be nothing but Final Fantasy with Goombas

Why are they throwing away what made Mario so special

Difference is that Square's ideas for Mario RPG didn't look like complete shit.

And I also apologize for my brusqueness, Nick. I really shouldn't try to post on GFF while I'm coming down with stomach flu. :gonk:

In fairness back when Mario RPG was in development studios weren't under constant pressure to let people fiddle around with their alpha builds

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2007/20070314.jpg

I grant you the nuclear catapult is kind of silly. It's not like FO2, with the Magic Purple Robe you got for playing along with FO2's constant Monty Python references. Oh, and the shotgun weddings to useless meatsacks. And the MAGIC DREAM SEQUENCES urging you along on an unwinnable quest. Or the plants with thorns in their mouths and when they open their mouths they spit thorns at you. THAT shit made sense! Not like a weapon that makes things go boom. That is UNREASONABLE

Look, you can theoretically argue that the only way to make a "true" Fallout sequel is to hand it over to the original Black Isle guys, but they're mostly at Obsidian now and all they want to do is reskin KOTOR2 over and over. Did you know? The way to make everyone respect you is to just agree with them about everything! Then they will happily lay down their lives.

If only all the other Final Fantasies had grid-based combat. :(

In all fairness, nobody is arguing that Fallout 2 wasn't stupid.

I don't think any license actually takes a game, turns it into a completely different genre, and then markets it as the next part in a series. It's the reason they didn't call Mario 64 "Mario X."

It's why they called it Final Fantasy Tactics and not Final Fantasy 8. Remember how pissed off people were about FFX-2? Nevermind that it was actually more interesting than normal Final Fantasies, people were still going into big nerd rage.

In series people expect to be marketed more of the same. When you market a game that's fundamentally different as a direct sequel, it implies that no other games in the series are going to be like the predecessors.

I'm pretty sure they called it that because it was on the N64. You know, or else WipEout, Star Fox, Ogre Battle, Mario Kart, etc would all have proper numbers.

Following that logic, they should've called Metroid Prime, Metroid Cubed. It's not because of a marketing tie in, it's because the games exist within a franchise but not as a part of an established series.

While I think the 64 did at times simply refer to being on N64 (like the Super moniker in front of nearly every non Mario SNES game), I do agree that it wasn't like that all the time. Bomberman 64 and its type had a double deal of showing their the N64 version AND very different from previous games. This is why I balk at people who say Zelda 64.

So a game doesn't count as a sequel now unless it has a consecutive numeral tacked on?

Man, the Castlevania series was just annihilated. Castlevania 3 was pretty good but when will a new one come out?! All we are getting is these spinoffs! These guys aren't even Simon! What the FUCK

I suddenly feel like everybody is losing this argument.

You're the one losing this argument, because Fallout 3 will fucking rock. Morrowind would have been a good game if it wasn't for the lame, uninspired fantasy setting. Now, Morrowind with the setting of Fallout, well, I would play the shit out of that game.

After looking this shit up in terms of shots and from what I've heard, this sounds nothing like Fallout anymore. The beginning of the game sounds like a pain in the ass, and is ridiculously drawn out much more than it needs to be. Third-person Oblivion view, despite how many times they can rework it, will not match the isometric overhead view of the first 2 games. It also kind of pisses me off that they're going from straight turn-based to an action hybrid. That doesn't play anything like the first 2.

Honey pie, look, we value your input but we do not need you to make this post since Brady already made the very same post. Yes! Different is bad! Always! Thank you but goodbye =/

For fucksake SMB2 (US) did not "play anything like" SMB

What are these turnips

They were not there before

Who told you to add turnips

Pang, Nintendo still had control over their property and oversaw Square and their work on Super Mario RPG. If there were people from Black Isle Studios overseeing Bethesda developing Fallout 3 then I might agree with you.

Additional Spam:
Oh Pang you're so silly. Yeah we all know SMB2 is a dokidokipanikuferlagbogostan with Mario characters painted on top because lols arabian nights or whatever its based off of wouldn't settle well for amerikkka. But hell some things such as enemies and character control from the game have turned into Mario canon. Shy guys and Birdo have their moments in the sun every now and then too. They should totally give both of them their own games. That'd be pretty bad and rad and totally mad.

So am I the only person that thought after trying to play Oblivion that the game would be a lot more fun with guns, a non-shit fantasy setting, and losing that well-intended but poorly executed scaling difficulty (and would also like to see some sort of Diablo-esque skill tree introduced)?

This must be some other kind of parody.

This isn't what I'm saying, Pang. Don't act like u no.

What, no, why parody. I do think that Fallout 3 will be good, and even if it turns out to be just 'Oblivion with guns' (which is apparently supposed to be a massive iceburn or something), that'd still be way fun. It's a game, not a damn religion.

You'd never think that based on the obsessive "cultist" level Fallout fans. I remember people suggesting sending in threatening letters to Bethesda before and I couldn't believe what I was reading wasn't a joke.

You understand that this is as equally a fallacious reasoning as Fallout fans who claim that the game will definitely suck, right?

"Thinking" something is going to be good isn't the same thing as being dead-set on it sucking, though.

Well, uh, I guess? I mean, I don't really care if people think the game will suck or rock or what, what worries me is that they take it so dead seriously.

To be fair, Fallout has always been a hardcore franchise with a lot of hardcore fans. It's only understandable that people are getting so riled up about it. If we can learn anything from this, it's the fact that the mainstream has killed niche gaming.

Bethesda trying to appeal to a larger audience isn't going to do the game any good, but that's just my opinion.

Imagine the backlash if Capcom USA made Street Fighter IV and decided to develop it to appeal to the Smash Bros. crowd? I think it's understandable that Fallout fans may be wary, but the concept of the game hasn't changed in such a way that it cannot present a similar experience, I think. That's just me, though. I don't know if turned based grid combat is essential to Fallout for some fans, but I do think Fallout can work with a different form of combat.

Whatever genius Feargus et al may have once had is pretty much defunct. What have they done lately? The unplayable NWN2? The unfinished KOTOR2? Or, hey, let's crank it back to their LAST failed company, Troika, and their buggy unfinished masterpieces TOEE and Bloodlines. If Bethesda is making "Oblivion with guns", Obsidian would only steer it toward "NWN2 with guns", andI don't really want to have to choose a class for my Vault Dweller and then spend hours sucking up to the random yahoos in my party so they'll really really like me!

If nothing else I doubt Fallout 3 will be crippled with major bugs that make the game impossible to finish, which is a damn guarantee when the Black Isle crew gets their hands on things. I love me some Fallout 2 but I've only been able to beat it perhaps once out of 25 or so plays, simply because some ass-fuck bug screwed me over. And this is AFTER the torrent of usermade patches, which SHOULDN'T BE NECESSARY

I'm sorry, but I'm just getting fed up with these guys who put out two or three unfinished games, fold, reform under a new gothy name, and repeat process. What exactly about this pattern inspires such confidence in people is beyond me. Why not give a chance to somebody who actually finishes what they start? (Yes, there are userpatches for Morrowind & Oblivion as well but they mostly appear to be for trifling shit like I LIEK BOOBIES and WANT BIGGER HAUS)

I haven't played Oblivion (the last Elder Scrolls game I so much as touched was Daggerfall), but I don't know what is so terrible about it besides the generic-ass setting. The encounter scaling is dumb but they already said they wouldn't include that.

This whole argument is based on such silly assumptions about development. SMB1 was a huge hit for Nintendo but nobody would reasonably assume that Legend of Zelda was just "Mario with Swords". Yes, both games are in 3D? God forbid that, I mean, depth is for PUSSIES

RTw/P is a very different mechanic compared to using turns. All actions used to be limited by AP, now they're like a super power.

There used to be an element of tension where you performed actions in your turn and prayed that the next shot didn't crit and ventilate your torso. Now any kind of damage dealt is likely to be within predictable bounds, and you don't have to wait on the AI to perform its subroutines since all actions occur simultaneously (unless you pause for super shot). Now you have action-based tension, but once the player is aware of the system and how to fight, battles aren't as tense anymore, which is probably why they're hyping the Nemesis Behemoth and the stupid as hell nuke-a-pult as opposed to any kitschy new ray guns they could've designed.

They might not even get dialog right:
Dialogue tree is an important distinction to make, since none of the screenshots actually showed how dialogue worked, and while Oblivion's wiki system could offer branching choices, the actual trees followed a straight line from each base.

It's already not going to play like the predecessors by virtue of the combat alone, now we're not even sure if they can get NPC interaction right.

"NWN2 with guns" would actually be much more like Fallout than "Oblivion with guns." Both games use essentially the same presentation, but with different combat mechanics. Nevermind that the Black Isle guys were working on Van Buren before they were forced to shut down, and that KOTOR 2 was more interesting than any piece of shit Bioware and Bethesda have crapped out in years.

Fucking Earth to Pang. People are arguing on the premise that they are marketing a completely different game as a sequel. They did not market Legend of Zelda as SMB2. Stop falling back on this fallacious reasoning.

Pang, have you completely forgotten how to debate something? I mean, the Zelda 1/Zelda 2 comparison is right fucking there, and instead you're wandering off on a tangent about Super Mario Bros. SMB2 wasn't anywhere near as good as the first or third game, so it's not reinforcing your point much, and I really don't know what that last bit was about.

Isn't it ironic then that Zelda 2 is widely considered the worst in the entire series, outside of the CD-I games?

A lot of Fallout fans think less of Fallout 2. Think maybe this is a trend?

Extra ironic given that it's not actually a bad game. People just didn't like it because it was different. I mean, I'd still rank it as the weakest of the series, but even the worst* Zelda game is still good in its own right.

On the other hand, Zelda 2 also didn't take extreme liberties with its source material. Even if you didn't like it, you can't argue that it wasn't Zeldaish. There was nothing in that game that would have seemed out of place in a traditional Zelda game.

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night? Another radical departure. You didn't even play a Belmont in that one, and it was more Metroid than it was Castlevania. It sure didn't suck, though - and it still looked, sounded, and handled like the good old gothic horror action romps from before. It stayed true to Castlevania's particular designs, right down to the maddeningly placed medusa heads, even while changing up the gameplay.

Now, it's a little too early to be screaming about Fallout 3 given that we've had all of a single 8 page teaser to look through, but that brief teaser really doesn't suggest an end product that stays true to its source. It's entirely possible to not be enthusiastic about the direction of this sequel without being one of the NMA jerkoffs, after all.



*The CD-i games emphatically do not count.

I don't think it's all that comparable, because to anyone but the NMA crowd Fallout 2 was more or less what you'd expect to see in a sequel whereas Zelda 2 was a huge change from the first. Not to mention that Zelda 2 was only the second game in the series so when it came out the structure of Zelda grew to a broader concept, as not only did the perspective change but RPG elements were added. Fallout 3 comes after 2 turn based games that are very much alike, and while I'm not necessarily saying this makes it not "Fallouty" enough, I'm saying it complicates the situation compared to Zelda 2. I think if those classic games can make the jump to 3D that Fallout can do it, too, though. We'll inevitably have to give up some things, but just how much we can't claim to know, and we also have to wait and see what we'll gain in return.

Van Buren, Black Isle's in-house Fallout 3 project had already made the jump to 3D, and the texture work makes everything look as if the backgrounds were painted. It was high quality stuff and would've been balanced for turn-based (Interplay demanded multiplayer), but Interplay shut down the studio so they could dump all their money in Brotherhood of Steel, which sold a grand total of 17,000 copies.

Yes, but Van Buren was never released. I know about VB and how it still looked like Fallout (And thus you're right that it was possible to keep the game like the first two and still have 3D graphics), I'm just saying that Fallout can also change perspective with the jump to 3D if Metroid, Zelda, and Mario can do so, too.

Nobody is disputing this. What they are disputing is making a franchise game that doesn't play like its predecessors and billing it as a sequel. If this was Fallout: DC there wouldn't be much problem, but with Todd Howard saying he wants to "reinvent" Fallout, and calling what is basically a shooter with pause Fallout 3, it sort of means that there's no hope in there ever being another game like the first two.

Admittedly a bit exasperated here. There will be debatable... things in here. I'm not entirely convinced I have a point, though the temptation to just vent here is too great for me. So, feel free to lay into me (like I could stop you).

All of those examples that Monkey King used are fine and dandy... but here's the thing. I don't think the Zelda or Castlevania fanbases were polarized back then. I can't think of a single person I knew who WASN'T excited for Symphony of the Night. Zelda 2... I was too young back then, though call me crazy, I think the guys behind those projects still had a legitimately known origin in the development of those games. Zelda is always controversial (it's fandom, like all fandoms, are a faggot collective) They hadn't tanked, so I find them laughable as examples in this case.

Now my example would be Thief 3... I think it's a bit more applicable here and that it makes me better than you all. REALLY! -- Not really :sadface:

First of all, it wasn't entirely horrible at the end of the day. Yeah it had issues, yeah if you didn't like Thief 2 you probably hated it at some level for being "Thief 3", YES CONSOLE DEVELOPMENT FUCKED THINGS. But there were good things going on there. The only thing I think was universally agreed upon was the question of "Was this Thief?" I know a lot of Thief 2 fans who still say "No" to that. I still say "No" to that. But it's subject to debate, and aesthetics and such are for fags lol.

That's me saying I don't give a shit about it now.

So, what does that have to do with anything? Similar circumstance and fanbase I'd call it. Reiterating, when Symphony of the Night was released, it wasn't like Konami had gone under. Same with Zelda 2 and Nintendo, the gaming community wasn't quite united in faggotry at that time via the internet. Yes there were faggots, but now we can all cry meaninglessly in unison. Did you hear the one about that Cel-Shaded Zelda?

Can we expect the same of Fallout 3? Is it going to be decent? Is anyone asking that question? Who would say they're more worried about the game being decent over, rather than along with, the fact that it doesn't bear true faith and allegiance to Fallout 1 and 2 so help it god? A fan [of a certain portrayal].

My frustration with this whole... Fallout thing lies in the fact that it's as if I need a demo or something which would put a collective mind at ease, like we're all waiting for that special someone to jump out and say "SEE!? I TOLD DAT NIGGA! TOLD DAT NIGGA! TOLD DAT NIGGA THE GAME WAS GONNA SUCK/RULE/BE FAITHFUL/ABUSE THE FRANCHISE NAME FOR PROFIT! WUT HE DO?!"

I can't fault anyone for speculating on this game given the evidence. Yet, for christ sake, for all the criticism I see shot toward gamers, this is a good case to reinforce that mindset. Are we all just a collective bunch of sandy vagina, whining faggots? If it's an enjoyable piece of work (please cast worries aside for me, do me that favor here), what are we left with?

"It shouldn't be called Fallout." ... Jesus. Fucking. Christ.

Given all we know of their work and with all of the things it could entail, I think saying at this point it isn't going to play like its predecessors, that it is going to move away from established themes... is refusing to accept that changing perspective and developers is going to also entail *GASP* change.

People were predicting this change the moment Bethesda announced the acquisition of the license and they weren't happy with it then, either. There hasn't been a sequel to Fallout 2 in 9 years, that's a lot of time to sit around and talk about Fallout and other games like it, and that's part of the problem.

Fallout's become bigger than its own sphere of interest, it's become symbolic of the way CRPGs have moved since the start of the millenium. The last CRPG like it was Temple of Elemental Evil. The last good CRPG was Arcanum. Yet every new game coming out with RPG slapped on the box plays nothing like the games that people played in the late 90's, and aren't even that great at roleplaying.

Fallout 3 being turned into a 3rd Person shooter, is the affirmation that absolutely no big budget roleplaying title is going to play like the old CRPGs.

People aren't afraid of change assuming that it's change for the better, and there's absolutely nothing to indicate that Bethesda taking the helm of one of the most popular CRPG franchises to date will accomplish anything positive for the genre or roleplayers.

Tipping my hand, I wasn't a gigantic fan of some CRPG elements in the first place. But that goes hand in hand in the way I see games. I think the concepts Ken Levine is applying to Bioshock would be great for something like Fallout 3. I'm not such a fan of dialog trees as I was way back when.

I think I saw a few journal entries of yours basically, in a roundabout way, saying we're looking at a dying genre. Watching Fallout get taken into this whole bastardization/evolution of the old genre as you may or may not call it, is it that upsetting to people who didn't have such a vestment in the genre itself?

I don't have the time out here to do an Iron Man run of Fallout 1 or 2, but I think it'd be interesting to see how many people on the forums participate. Perhaps we could ask what they see in the games at the end of it? What they enjoyed and such? Was that your goal?

No, my goal was to make a Fallout Iron Man Thread because it's a kickass idea.

Does there have to be an ulterior motive for everything?

Eh, was more like a proposition. I thought if it were an ulterior motive of yours, it'd have been cool, regardless of that it'd be possibly worth doing if you could get a big enough number of participants. My reasoning is that most people I know never really play CRPGs for the roleplaying aspects, they complain that everything is "click click click." I'm wondering if that's all the conventional mind that most companies pander to for business is going to see in CRPGs.

That's generally it, yes. Diablo had great action and people took to it like crack, so that's when everything started going downhill and RPGs became more action oriented. There were a couple of great hurrahs, though.

If the Iron Man thread inspires people to play some great roleplaying games and have community-based fun doing it, then that's also great.

As long as we're on this subject you might want to check out Age of Decadence. It's an indie CRPG being made by a 3 man team, inspired by games like Fallout and Darklands. According to the impressions given by Vault Dweller (lead design) the combat is turn-based and plays out roughly like Fallout, while performing quests often involves playing them out like a text adventure. It's also not released yet. =/ It'll be "done when it's done."

Brady, I'm actually curious about what gameplay elements you're going to be missing about some of the older games. Are you talking about games in style similar to Baulder's Gate?

Dialogue trees, ahahaha

In Fallout 1, you weren't constrained to a dialogue tree! You could ask the talking heads about ANYTHING! Anything! And then they'd tell you they didn't know anything about that

ASK ABOUT: SHADY SANDS

ARADESH: I'M AFRAID I'VE NEVER HEARD OF THAT


Yeah, you said something that's not true just there. The true measure of a Mario game is the Crack Level, or the degree to which it was evident the Designers Are On Crack. Mario 1 has a very high crack level for its time but in retrospect it is unimpressive. Ok, mushrooms, plumber, yeah. SMB2 upped the ante. THIS DINOSAUR IS A TRANVESTITE AND THE FLOATING MASK WISHES YOU TO DIE! IT WAS ALL A DREAM! AHAHAH! Mario 3 further improves matters by throwing every goddamn thing they could think of into the bucket. "YOU CAN TURN INTO A STATUE!" 'What the hell for" "JUST DO IT! WHEEEE!" But even this did not meet SMB2's hgh standard. "What if one of the hammer brothers had a boomerang" is no match for WALK INTO THE GAPING BIRD'S MAW TO CONTINUE

Maybe this is blasphemy but the Mario series would be very pedestrian if not for its absolutely deranged trappings, and SMB2 took the opportunity to FLOATING PRINCESS HURLS TURNIPS AT BLOATED FROG

In a sense, yes, though I also think Baldur's Gate was awful for forcing a party mechanic with real-time combat.

What I'm definitely going to miss most is the turn based combat. A lot of people didn't like it and that's fine, but shooters aren't a challenge for me and it certainly won't be with a pause-targeting system. Turn-based combat always has that element of tension that I mentioned before, and I enjoy playing with a system that allows me to set my own pace in an RPG.

Then again, this is the only gameplay aspect that we know is different. Maybe everything else is making up for it, but so far it doesn't look like they're doing the setting any kind of justice.

Elaborate, please.

First person shooters are a fairly tried-and-true gameplay mechanic that generally operates within the same bounds every time. I've got the reflexes and the resourcefulness to hold my own in most of these games. I'd probably have a hard(er) time in Call of Cthulhu if I wasn't adept at making headshots with the revolver. This is why when it comes to an FPS I prefer games like the original Rainbow Sixes or Armed Assault, which are more simulationist and a single hit will fuck up your day.

Now, most turn-based games aren't simulationist, but they do provide a challenge and a sense of tension, especially in games like Fallout where a single critical hit will drop you down from full health to zilch.

I... wait. Something's NOT A CHALLENGE, so you want to make it more challenging by... slowing it down so you have an infinite period of time in which to make decisions?

Yes. That's more of a challenge than playing a game where I'm in full control, because there's always a chance that something or somebody will fuck up your shit, be it geckos or super mutants wielding rocket launchers.

It's hard to strafe in turns. =\/

The solution to strafing is just to implement a system where you stumble like a retard if you keep running to the side while looking forward, because c'mon

*see Pang's original response*

Real-Time, reflex challenging... versus turn based. I don't find RPGs challenging because while most sections of action based games require at least some semblance of memorization and then on the fly execution, RPGs tend to just fail based off memorization, because there's very little to penalize on execution due to the fact they're so susceptible to "prep time."

I suppose this is why actual Pen and Paper is better than video game attempts at replicating this. But seriously dude, I'm at a loss here... you should be ashamed.

What?

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at. Execution can still be heavily penalized because all enemies present a certain amount of danger. Rushing into a situation ill-prepared for it can have disasterous consequences.

I'm saying that Turn-Based kills what one might consider "challenge." Rushing in anything usually has disastrous consequences.

Alright, so let's review. I don't think shooters are challenging because I'm good at them. I do think turn-based games are challenging because there's a constant danger that anything can kill you, regardless of how much you've memorized.

Is there a problem with this reasoning?

I would say the fact that "something can kill you in spite of memorization even when you're skilled" applies to other games in other genres, including FPS. That's about the only issue I have with it.

You're right, it does apply, but it's not as much of a variable. Over the course of a normal FPS game, you can effectively determine how much damage you'll take in any exchange. In a game like Fallout the amount of damage received in an exchange is indeterminable. You could get hit multiple times for 5 hitpoints or you can get hit a few times in crits. The point is that the rules of the gameworld apply to all actors, where an equal amount of damage inflicted on a normal enemy in an FPS would barely put a scratch on the player character. FPSes which do model damage from a bullet with high danger are the exceptions to the rule, and are targeted to a different audience.

I tend to enjoy a balance. I remember how fun (not fun) Halo 2 was when the shoe was on the other foot in Legendary mode. The computer kills you in a burst, and a volley of gunfire won't stop the computer from maiming you in seconds, all the while Elites have shields that will recover with time. Usually the time you're taking to attempt and recover.

I still believe challenge is relative, and the thing about RPGs (that you were getting at) is that you're still technically "rolling the dice." I'm not sure I consider it a challenge, though the mechanic would probably be a thrill in some other lifetime for me.

I can agree to disagree in that we find excitement from entirely different variables. I like the illusion that my skill can get me out of any spot. Ninja Gaiden was a good example, until I realized that a great chunk of the move list in that game became impractical.

Why not do some sort of randomized damage system for a FPS as well? Put in bullet randomization as well as little numbers that pop up each time you shoot an enemy that aren't necessarily the same every time. What's so hard about adding random critical hits to a FPS game?

Because it ruins the appeal of being in control. If you've got a system where numbers keep rolling up zero even though you're hitting dead on people are gonna bitch about it.

Granted, this was how the combat operated in Vampire, but the problem with Vampire's combat is that it sucks. (like it did in general really)

It sure was intimidating watching those zeros scroll up on the werewolf though. =\/

Brady, have you played any of the Elder Scrolls games?
Those are all first person RPGs and they all do a pretty good job in terms of combat and threats to the player.

Critical hits were done in Shogo: Mobile Armor Division. Unfortunately, the enemy had critical hits as well... thinking on it, I think Brady might find the challenge in FPS games he's looking for in that particular game.

And Brady has played games in Elder Scrolls series. It's why he's so critical of them.

I liked the combat in Morrowind, but "people" that posted on the ESF boards bitched about hit rolls. "If I shoot at it it should hit!" was the sentiment, even among reviewers. Out of all of them, Oblivion is definitely the most shooter like, since the only thing your PC skill impacts is damage (though it seems, not by much).

Shogo is fuckin' solid. I don't recall how critical hits worked, though. In fact I don't even recall there being critical hits. =/

Your memory is failing you, "Critical Hit!" usually popped up on the hud and trippy colors flashed whenever you delivered one on the opponent. You didn't notice an occasional massive health drop if enemies hit you, Brady? It's pretty much why most people loathe playing the non-MCA levels. Everything you describe RPG wise was present here. Yes, you could easily kill an opponent, but any shot could leave you crippled or dead health wise.

Well, all I really remember of Shogo are the MCA levels, so that likely explains it.

Regardless, there's more to a turn-based experience than critical hits. "Critical hits" in an FPS are going to be annoying because the appeal of an FPS is supposed to be an actioney type experience where the player is placed in the control and perspective of the player. The exceptions to this are the simulationist FPSes like RB6 and ArmA, but these aren't marketed to the mainstream like Fallout 3 presumably will be.

A lot of the appeal is also purist. A turn-based system separates the player from the player character, so that the player only directs the actions of the PC instead of having the player act as the PC. It better allows the player to make in-character decisions and determine the best possible approach.

Again, I have to disagree. Uh, to point out on the Shogo element. I realize that there might be more to the system and mechanics involved, but the feeling of "challenge" and "danger" you described is basically executed in real time with Shogo's system. It only popped in my head when I was thinking about enemies that could just drop you out of nowhere. That or I would have brought up the fact that if anything so much as sneezes on you in a shoot em up, you're done. But, it wasn't in the first person genre.

I'm not a fan of ultra-realism. It isn't unreasonable to say that a balance between difficulty and non-asinine game mechanics can be achieved. I'm not a slouch at FPS, though we obviously see things differently.

I think as far as engrossing the player, I don't like feeling detached at any point. What you described sounds like a preference rather than anything I would go around telling anyone. With a game like Thief, where you're forced to use your wits and tools at hand, there's always a sense of tension that you could be seen, you could get yourself seen.

When the game stops, the way Turn Based does so often, the immersion ceases. Why the hell would I want to be separated from the Player Character. The player character is supposed to be me. I don't feel that stopping time helps me better enjoy the game, perhaps think about my decisions maybe... but I'm not looking to be thrown out of the loop. Challenging players to make their actions on the spot, make their decisions on the spot. Yes, it causes spontaneity, but it feels genuine that way.

Life doesn't feature Turn Based mechanics. I realize this isn't the idea behind certain RPG styles, though I'm more than willing to argue for progression.

Dialogue trees, turn based combat... I don't believe in these mechanics. I don't feel they can immerse the player the way an active system can. I feel that "in-character" decisions can be conveyed through mechanics that don't involve preset paths or stopping time.

I know that right now, we haven't quite reached that level of gameplay execution. But I'm highly anticipating Bioshock because of the ideas behind this.

The reason that tension exists is because the guards would fuck you up, and were harder to kill once they spotted Garret.

Immersion isn't the purpose of a turn-based system, which is part of why I like it so much.

Haha, that's fine, but this isn't a religion, we just have different opinions regarding how roleplaying should be. I don't roleplay by pretending that I am the player character and you do, that's great. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I remember I was anticipating Bioshock because of the prospect of NPC interaction and a breathing gameworld until it was revealed that, oh hey everything plays out in levels and gameplay is actually samey half-life type action with splicers that can produce a seemingly endless amount of grenades.

If nothing else I'll play the game for the story and setting, but not for the roleplaying that they act like it will have.

Was rolling with the whole "active challenge thing", but you're right.

I figured I was missing the point.

I love games, but definitely. Still, I have no problem with acquiring knowledge.

I've been trying not to overhype myself about the game, it's just been awhile since I've had a game of that nature that I actually felt was going to be worth a shit. I want to see what Levine was trying to sell everyone on when he was talking about emergent gameplay.

I just think it's funny that Objectivists are trolling the Bioshock boards griping about how unreasonable it is that a closed (objectivist) society fails.

By having a top-down viewpoint and not seeing things exactly as the character would see them, isn't it then less of an in-character decision? More fragile builds will have to be careful and take greater care in which enemies they engage against, while stronger builds made more for combat can just charge right into a room without worrying what might burst in from the shadowy window.

Also, this Shogo game you guys are talking about sounds kinda interesting. With the preferences I've been mentioning of my own in this thread do you guys think it would be worth me getting?

Depends on how much you like first person mecha combat mixed with completely forgettable normal first person shooter combat. It's also pretty anime-ey.

Only insofar as the amount of information presented to the character. Fallout is not the perfect example of this since you can see rats scurrying in tunnels on the other side of the map, but nobody is saying this can't be improved.

I thought Silent Storm's system regarding the conveyance of information is pretty classy, but it's also a squad game so if one member sees, everybody sees.

Y'know this works in the modern Castlevania games pretty well. Mind you, side-scrolling platformers and FPS's are two different gameplay mediums, but it's not impossible to implement this well.

Yeah, you'd have the FPS purists howling angrily, because That's Not The Way Things Are Done, but different doesn't always mean bad. If you don't market the game towards the FPS crowd in the first place, as they're doing with Fallout 3's VATS system, it's more palatable that way.

It's all in the presentation, though. I'm sure we could spend all day going back and forth naming examples of good ideas that were implemented badly. I'm sure it's possible to make it work better than it did in Vampire.

Vampire was also sorta being developed by a company whose previous experience involved Fallout, Arcanum, and ToEE. Entirely different styles of games. Plus getting a mid-production Source build didn't help the bug issue.

Hot damn, a new preview over at Destructoid!
It sounds like they're trying their best. The article notes that the Bethesda crew are all HUGE fans of the games and that they really really really don't want to screw this up.


Oh, and check this out...

Perhaps they're eliminating sub-hitboxes for when you're not in this slowed down time so that you can't just go BOOM HEADSHOT on every guy just because you're good at FPS games.

See, I think that whether or not Bethesda got the license or not, we'd still never get to see another Fallout that played just like the first one. It was great then and still is now, but I think if, say, Troika picked it up Fallout fans would still be unsatisfied. We'll never really be satisfied, we just have to look at the good part of this: that we're getting a game that might be good, will have a lot of Fallout flavoring, and will hopefully present a similar role playing experience if not combat.

Shooting enemies while in normal time is counted like a standard shot to the chest no matter what? I guess I could go for that - it'd be quite the equalizer. The best way to enforce this would be to have more and more enemies with heavy chest armor, though, which will promote some odd aiming tactics.

Not that I have any business complaining, since I was forever going around in Fallout using rifles as melee weapons and scoring mad critical hits by popping everyone in the eyes.

I'd still rather have a fully turn-based game than some hybrid, though. It doesn't have to be exactly like the first two games, but I've been upset about this trend towards real time everything for years.

Darn Square and their ATB! :argh:

Let's be fair, some of the blame lays on Bioware's shoulders too, even if I did like the Baldur's Gate games.

That's just dumb.

With all of the info that's coming out now I don't see the point in arguing this much any more. Fallout 3 is going to be one of the most unoriginal hack pieces of shit in 2008. I mean, they've even got a gravity gun (Suck-o-Tron).

Not everyone bases their feelings about this release on a sense of dread and pessimism and BRING OUT YE DEAD, NIGGAS. Compared to a lot of what comes out lately, I'm not sure "not so mainstream RPG" can be called on being unoriginal and hack piece of shit compared to most everything else that gets released these days.

(of course by sense of dread and pessimism, I meant educated opinion/factual knowledge)

If you're saying that almost every game released nowadays is a piece of shit, I guess we're not really disagreeing?

Something like that. I really just keep asking myself "Why do I give a shit?" As soon as Bioshock gets released, I'll be pacified and be able to keep fooling myself about games for another 10 years.

Powered by Havok™!

Seriously though, I'm staying optimistic about Fallout 3 simply because it could be good. And that's good enough for me until I start reading terrible reviews and play a terrible demo.

I find life is a lot more tolerable if you're pessimistic by default. That way you never get your high hopes crushed, and when things actually turn out good, it's a pleasant surprise.

I mean, you're going to be very very sad if you're expecting Fallout 3 to be awesome and then it turns out to be a piece of suck, but if you expect it to suck and it does indeed suck, you're not nearly as upset. You even get the gratification of knowing you were right all along. Pessimism is win/win.

Not really. You could stand to establish some apathy toward the situation maybe, but there isn't really an advantage nor is it necessary to be spiteful and pessimistic towards something before you've even played it.

Look at it this way -- it could go one way or the other. There's a fine line between accepting this and lamenting it.

There won't be a demo.

The real advantage gained is for those being spiteful. The same reason Something Awful can't stop talking about NMA is the same reason I made this thread, it's fun to hate on things.

There's also the issue of the Lemons Market. The argument that you can't really judge something until you've actually played it defaults in favor of the developer, because you're paying them anyways regardless. The best stance to take in a lemons market is to identify the aspect of a lemon and call developers out on it, in the hopes that the final product will not be a lemon.

In most industries there are journalistic entities which identify the lemons for the benefit of consumers, but when information is controlled by the creators of the product, and journalistic opinion can be affected with perks then consumers have to trust their own judgment based on past experience.

Case in point:
In most industries, as with gaming, these kind of events aren't uncommon. However, as with all other industries access to these kind of perks can usually be denied because the publisher controls the nature of information. If a journalist does not allow himself to be bought, then he and his magazine is blacklisted by the publisher, and they stand to lose exclusives.

So if we can't trust journalists to be critical, then we have to be critical. It's not just about hating on something for me, it's also because I don't want people to buy a lemon, and especially don't want them thinking that a franchise should be defined by lemons.

Yes, save the ignorant masses... from themselves?

How dramatic. I love it.

I like to think of it as a public service, but really it's just a hobby.

I imagine several people feel that way, it's just that I have a hard time believing that one community is going to band together and not go the fuck away once Fallout 3 is released, re-official redundantly deemed shitty for redundancy, leaving us right back where we started:

With journalism that's still functioning with more PR and less whatever the hell journalism is supposed to do... inform impartially, I don't know. I think any one person who truly cares about games knows better than to take these sort of media blitzes seriously. At that, I would rather people begin to fix the problem, rather than have this non-effective witch hunt that isn't going to do anything but let them pat themselves collectively on the back.

"Yeah, we showed those guys, now they only sold 1/100000000 less copies of Fallout 3 because of us! YEAH!"

I realize every bit helps, but sound and fury is still sound and fury. Get in the industry, make games, talk about games where it isn't a vacuous void of stupid. Make a fucking difference or shut the fuck up.

They already have. The reason I stopped posting at NMA and became a Codex member is because the Codex actually has the potential to affect game development with indies or other devs. There's a thread right here where half the Codex explains to a Gamespy editor why he isn't doing his job. It's easier than actually creating our own games because some of us actually have lives outside of gaming.

Then again, what the fuck do you care what people do with their free time? Or did "this is a hobby" not get through to you?

Did I strike a nerve, Brady? No, really. You haven't convinced me I've said anything, well, stupid. Not yet, anyway. I'm sure it's not beyond your scope and whatever.

But, answer to the question: "What do I care?" Well, I'd say common decency. That and, actually making a difference. Which is sad considering in the end "It's just a game, faggots." Oops, stepped on someone's childhood there.

Nerds getting all hurt up about how their "hobby" isn't being made the way they like it is laughable if they don't do anything about it. SOMETHING. And no, yelling out in mass isn't doing anything. Present a solution, get it so saturated that the target audience can't fucking see straight because Turn Based RPG is falling from their eye-sockets and erupting from their mouths.

Because, really, you're not the target fucking audience, you're being fucked by the system. I understand this, I don't agree with it. Yet... "This is a hobby" "In my opinion", got anymore copouts?

I'm somehow supposed to believe that there can be a legion of Spider-Jerusalem's and this shit is serious business. It's not. It's why I take offense to the people who generally just flap their jaws and influence like, maybe one or two people (well, not really, those people agreed with them anyway). It's why I view your Fallout event as commendable. The idea you can expose someone to a game is a positive thing.

A guy I used to talk games with wouldn't just talk about games with me. He'd send me games that he'd talk so often with me about. I'd become exposed and formulate my own opinions about them, find my own reasons about liking them. These days, polarizing and dividing people from a vacuous cave and sending high level annoyance to someone who isn't going to listen to you anyway. It's why I view NMA's shit as laughable nerd garbage.

Wait, that's most anyone who's a gamer.

Three comprehensive links doesn't account for every faggot in-between the lines that comprises any gaming collective... They stick to their avenue of interest and I'm supposed to care when they point out that "All of gaming is fucked up." Or, narrowing it down, "You're fucking up Fallout." The game will be released, life will go on and their childhood will be ruined. Last I checked, Loonatics is still being animated.

Yes, it is their hobby, but I think common decency accounts for something. Memes, victim complexes... yeah, I think I draw a line there.

"Make the fucking games."

Good on those guys who did their own thing, my problem wasn't with them. I mean, independent comic labels don't really change things like the racial issues and portrayals of women in mainstream comics... but that's why people infiltrate the system, right? Or not, I guess.

I'm pretty sure we've already come to the conclusion that you haven't really said anything stupid and that we disagree fundamentally in opinion. Don't think I'm attacking you, because I'm not.

I also think you're confusing what I'm talking about in regards to my hobby. It isn't just gaming or Fallout, talking about games and exposing lemons is my hobby. I've already written quite a bit of material concerning my own reviews of several games, and a series of (unfinished) papers on how to go about designing a CRPG. If you want to read some of them, I can send them to you, and really the one I'm most proud of was my review for Just Cause. I posted most of them in my chocojournal because I don't actually think it's serious business, it's just a hobby.

This line obviously becomes blurred in regards to Fallout because it's my favorite gaming franchise. Granted I'm acting pretty crazy over Fallout, but then it's also something that's important to me. Nobody said that you had to care, because the message is out there for anybody that does.

People react this way because they feel that the general public has lost all sense of taste. Granted it's all a meaningless struggle into oblivion until "good taste" is redefined by the fad of the era, but I'm at least trying to have fun getting there. (oblivion)

I took it as a jab was all. Everything else is my sound and fury. I do wish there was more involvement past being critical, not that I didn't drive that into the ground already. I know where you stand, but I would hope that a difference is made past just keeping with the status quo. Frankly, i would like to believe it isn't all meaningless, but I'd be lying.

How?

How can you honestly become more involved past criticism? Game development isn't a democracy, unfortunately. It's a business, and it's grown into a big one, with all the trappings of big business, including media campaigns and the idea of "what's going to make the most money?" over "what's fun to play?"

That is why we have companies like EA that put out the same game every year with minor changes (their sports games). So how can you change this? Get into the business and work from within? No, because you can't create something new as a grunt, nor are you allowed to take risks as a designer because ONE flop can spell doom for a small company, and the big ones have embraced the idea mentioned above and won't let you risk their 20 million dollars' worth of money.

In order to *break even* at that budget size, you need to have at least 400,000 copies sold, give or take a few thousand (assuming the price of 50 bucks per copy). If your idea isn't guaranteed 400,000 sales, then forget it right out, and if your idea isn't guaranteed another 200,000, then you have to fight tooth and nail to get something. Nor can you be in charge of giving the green light to projects like that, because you are once more being overseen by others and they will fire you if you OK a flop that costs the company millions.

What Brady's doing is all that he can do, really. He doesn't have the funds to start up a company, acquire the Fallout license (which would be a massive deal in the cost of millions in of itself), and create Fallout 3 as a CRPG. He can't become an employee at Bethesda and convince them to abandon their insanely massive project and start over from scratch. The Fallout 3 train is already in motion, and ain't nothin' gonna stop it. Hell, ain't nothin' gonna stop the games industry. The bar's been raised too many times over the years, and the tech's become more and more complex, and people are always demanding more. More detailed textures, more complex and adaptable AI, more depth, more storyline, more content, more special effects, more, more, more, more.

Yeah, Elder Scrolls 5: Fallout is probably going to be the death knell for CRPGs. And it's probably going to be pretty damn popular, because it looks good and it's got "innovative" concepts. Hell, I'll admit it right now: I plan to play TES5: Fallout. I plan, however, to thumb my nose at Bethsoft, dust off BitLord, and pirate the damn thing. I'll probably wind up enjoying it, but not so much that I would spend 50 bucks on the thing (or whatever price companies charge nowadays).

Learning about actual game design. Reading developer interviews, go to Gamasutra, take a college course, become an intern, make mods, learn to write. If you like gaming, GET INVOLVED IN IT. Past just flapping your gums in internet dead space. Gamers are the whiniest fandom around, constantly arguing several different elements of enjoyment and such.

Rather than participate in faggotry, I would like it if we had more to the activity than people who speculate based off a limited view of the industry and as a mere consumer at that.

When I say make a change, I also say "realistically." Fallout's fucked in the mind's of the fandom, I conceded this. That doesn't mean it's too much to ask that people do more to learn about the industry and get involved if they insist on saying this is a travesty and that gaming is dead and oh my god it's all over.

No one said anyone had to become some worker on EA's payroll, but there was a slight hint that some people could do something other than flap their gums about how "man this sucks, fuck you Bethesda, Imma harass you and get back at you despite the fact that you're still probably going to make money because journalism on gaming is a PR machine!"

Based off one of Brady's entries, a developer just took a pot shot at the Fallout community. Who's got more cred to the common man, the community or the developer?

If all you want to look at is the failure rate, then go ahead. You'll see failure and not opportunity. You've got to take risks to be successful, fact of life there. I didn't say people should throw their lives away, I said they should contribute positively, even through things like little events on a message board.

If all you want to do is discuss games, there's nothing wrong with that. Do whatever it is that you're going to do. What I think is hilarious are people who call Fallout 3 the clarion call of doom to gaming, when this shit has supposedly, I don't know I just might not have been paying attention the past 5 pages been going on for quite some time.

Victim complex. Again.

No one's killed your fucking mother, stop talking like this. A genre is dying, were you there for Freespace 2 and Space Sims on Computers?

It's such bullshit that no one makes mainstream text based adventure games.

> Type rebuttal to internet post

"I don't understand 'internet.'"

I just ask my friends how games are instead of reading internet reviews.

I actually bought Space Force: Rogue Universe because it's the only privateer-esque space sim and it's mediocre at best.

The death of a genre never gets any easier. Instead of taking elements from text-based games that would enhance games in other genres they were discarded entirely. All we've gotten out of CRPGs are the stats, and that's not roleplaying.

Demanding that people get involved in the industry is honestly too much to ask, because they're already involved in other matters. To be honest, I actually used to want to be a gaming journalist until I figured my efforts would be wasted. Now I want to teach history.

It was Allen Rausch, an editor for Gamespy who said in his official capacity as a Gamespy representative that Fallout fans should catch a disease and die.

He was also one of the marketing managers for Fallout Tactics (not a dev), so he hates a community because he tried to sell them a game that they didn't want.

He's a virtual nobody, and his opinion carries about as much weight as Fallout fans.

Right, dead.

Indeed, though the fact that the idea of just using stats emerged slowly kind of says something about people who only get bits and pieces.

Right, no shit at that? I do remember saying being involved could range from industry work, to just small little projects (yours) or just being informed beyond "this is a travesty." Of course asking everyone to just up and join the industry is ridiculous, I just used it as one example. It's amazing what we take for granted. Again, my point was/is that people get all up in arms, and the question becomes "Why should I care about what you're saying when you're not really saying anything that hasn't been heard before and echoing something because it's only affecting you at this one point in time?"

Did a pretty shitty job of explaining myself, so I guess I'll just level here. Often I read things like "Capcom isn't even trying" coupled with "Most of Capcom's fighting game guys aren't with the company anymore." It baffles me with these two points being established, that anyone could even say Capcom isn't trying, when they've already established that their talent for such things has flown the nest. I owe it to those involved here to define what the fuck I'm saying, as just letting people try to take a shot in the dark and understand what I'm incoherently rambling about is, to be blunt, asinine and fucking retarded of me. So, if you were to ask me "Define being involved", I would say "Doing anything ranging from recognizing and following the industry past cursory knowledge to actually trying to participate in it."

And, well, that is asking a lot. Stab me through the brain.

And the uninformed guy who reads it is gonna trust who? Yeah.

No, right, I see what you're getting at. There are far too many people even in discussions that are all talk. It's never enough to simply say "Capcom isn't even trying," they actually have to demonstrate why. That's too much, though, when people are just trying to look for somebody that agrees with them.

In all discussions the burden is on participants to be informed about the subject matter, and to articulate their points with reason, not fall back on memes and talking points.

It's the biggest reason why I don't post at NMA anymore, because the influx of ESF members have created a general IQ crash, where new members are wishing 9/11 events on Bethsoft studios.

If that's what you're getting at, then I agree that nobody should be tolerating that bullshit.

All the more reason to "inform" them. :)

I definitely need to work on not being hard to follow/convoluted, but yes, that's what the synapse firing in my brain was trying to get out this whole time.


Do what you do, man.

Space Rangers 2 had text adventure parts and puzzles, but that was made by a bunch of crazy russians that stuck together just about every genre out there into one (amazing) game.

As much as I do love Space Rangers 2, it's honestly the exception to the rule. If more games start incorporating text adventures that would be fantastic, but until then it's kind of sad that the only people getting this are the Russians.

My favorite text-adventure puzzle was when they give you bad instructions and then after the puzzle's over blame it on poor translation between the alien languages. :tpg:

http://games.ign.com/articles/806/806770p9.html

Well this is likely to make the people who think Bethesda can't make a good game thats not Elder Scrolls a little less worried.

And #2 at Gamespy. http://www.gamespy.com/articles/806/806191p27.html


Thats if anyone even cares. Which may not.

Depends on how much stock you put in IGN or Gamespy's opinions. The bigger the company or franchise name, the less eager they are to even breathe a negative word about the game.

Obviously. I would rather read such things like this then hear nothing, or not even have it on such a list.

I wasn't even aware they were demoing it to people.

Could someone put this in the RPG FORUM and set under MULTI. And maybe even change the Title

Well guys this is getting pretty close. After watching the two HD gameplay videos on the Xbox Live Marketplace, I have to say I am quite excited and impressed. It is true I see some signs of Oblivion in it, but that is a good thing in my opinion (See zoom in on character interaction, and same voice actor on the guy who asks you to arm the bomb(LOL!)). However, they have added a lot of the things that made Fallout great. I like the multiple choices given to the player similar to the prior games.

A couple other things...I hope I don't hear the bartenders or whoever saying the same things everytime I go near them and I hope they have conversations without voice actors, for more in-depth lore. If they do have all voice actors, it better be many actors and lots of conversation. Maybe they commented on this already, but i don't know.

Fine. Done.

Despite it feeling like one gigantic Oblivion Expansion I'm still looking forward to this game.

I just happened to watch a trailer of this game on Gametrailers with some hands on. I don't think I have ever seen such a fun an time consuming game in such a while. I'm anticipating this game oh so much :D

Censors Force Fallout 3 Changes | Edge Online

I lul'd and slightly grrr'd

This isn't a problem at all. None of the chems in F1 or F2 were the real deal.

Refused classification? That's pretty hardcore censorship. The BBFC will give things an 18 rating for showing recreational drug use without negative consequences but they'd never ban a film or anything over it. I find the idea that a kid (Or in fact an adult, since they completely refused classification) would go out and score some morphine on the basis that it helped with bullet wounds to the leg in Fallout 3 rather laughable. If you're that fucking stupid you deserve to be a junkie. It's like people in this country complaining about the poster for the new Bond film because he's shown holding a machine gun and they're worried that in the midst of a gun-crime epidemic (Like 10 people have been shot this year or something equally pathetic) this will encourage kids to shoot each other. I mean, are the dealers and scummy kids from council estates who are shooting at each other all over east London and south Manchester really doing so because they saw a white dude with a machine gun on a movie poster? Of course they fucking aren't.

But yeah, I think GTA:IV is the only game I can think of that gives drugs their proper names anyway. It's not something that is going to negatively affect the gameplay.

Well, seems a copy of the X360 version was leaked today, which is good - because we won't have to wait around another 3 weeks to finally realise what a shitty game it is.

oh so you played it then Mr. Realise?

I hope you all enjoy cutscenes as according to the BBFC website, they had to sit through over 11 hours of them to rate this game (And 45 hours of gameplay footage). Also:

Slow motion? Sounds a bit like when you did the killing shots in that John Woo game.

Oh, a chainsaw. Sweet.

Bethesda with cutscences? Cool. Usually don't have too many of those in thier games. Didn't expect slow mo either, which sounds cool, but we shall see.

I imagine it's the total of non-interactive rolling footage so that'll include the intro and any pre-recorded conversations in the game. One wonders how long all the little bits of exposition before missions in GTAIV would come to if you watched them back to back.

So both the regular and Collector's Edition strategy guides are out, and I picked up the latter (just because I find a professional compendium to be much easier to search through than sloppy online FAQs when it comes to large, non-linear games like this).

I'm trying to be careful about what I read in it, but seems like it's a pretty big game. The map that came with the guide is very large.

so this has been out for a day or so now. I picked up the Collector's Edition for the 360. I love the tin, amazingly well done. the artbook is basically the Halo 3 CE one but fallout edition and the bobble-head is neat but don't look at it from a upward angle or it looks cheap.

Have yet to play it yet though as i have so many other games in my backlog. Anyone put any time into it yet? if so, do post impressions.

I haven't played much past all the intro and tutorial stuff, but I did manage to get through the first dungeon the game throws at you, so I feel like I have a sense of it.

Oblivion with guns pretty much holds true, because, well, it was based on the same engine and uses a lot of the same tropes like fast travel, random encounters, and deathcam.

I feel like just the addition of the guns themselves as well as the VATS system makes this game play out a lot better, though. The Bethesda guys obviously learned from some of their mistakes in Oblivion and so some of the tedium is removed simply because you have an active role in the aiming department.

There are a couple of things people might have problems with-- first and foremost being the morality system. It seems fairly strict as to whether you're being good or bad, so if the main draw for you is the shades of grey, you might want to rent first. As a reference, the first morality choice I found outside the vault, I thought to myself "This could easily be a KOTOR quest."

Also, when it comes to melee, it's still pretty much the "hope and swing" of Oblivion, where you might end up catching the AI off guard, or you might end up swinging fruitlessly and getting potshotted to boot. Enemies tend to come in groups, so melee is obviously a last ditch thing, but I found myself using melee a lot at the beginning of the game.

I haven't made it to Megaton yet, so I haven't seen how the town or story parts of the game play out, but in general this is still a really good game. With a few key tweaks, they've managed to make Oblivion with guns seem a lot less like a dirty phrase, for me.

Some more substance here... I'm loving this game. I was skeptical, I eventually fell into the dumb belief of "This will just be Oblivion with guns", but I'm willing to turn that view around and say this game is its own beast. I'll try to keep the comparisons to Elder Scrolls 4 at a minimum, but there's so much Fallout 3 gets right that Oblivion got wrong.

To get it out of the way, character models are presentable and actually look good. Your childhood friend is a girl with a butterface, unfortunately. But other than that, the base models look good.

The world environment/atmosphere has a lot going for it. If you've played Fallout 1 and 2, then there might be clashes over the "authenticity" of things, but the move to Capital area was the right thing to do. It lets this world still relate, but not have to worry about adhering to that frivolous fan canon bullshit. I loved going through mail boxes and finding letters from Vault-Tec or reading transcripts/emails on broken computers from various people. Going through the remains of houses and finding a corpse in bed, with a rejection letter from Vault-Tec in their mailbox just really gives a sense of how terrible the previous world was going into the new one.

I have only begun to get a decent foothold into the main campaign, but the world environment is eerie and frightening, but also engaging and meaningful from just what little foothold I've made. generally stuck to the East Coast and haven't ventured West just yet. However, I was greatly surprised and admittedly confused when I was told to go somewhere in the main quest and then by doing my own thing, I stumbled upon something that canceled that entire objective. It seems that things you're told might be actual information, and don't always have to be taken upon in order to progress through the game.

Skills are much more defined and the balance is great. Example here is how broken speech could be. If you have high speech you'll have greater success in general discussion, but it doesn't mean it'll universally translate to everything. If you have a low science rating, you cannot bullshit a scientist as it will have a huge impact on your percentage of success. You need to be able to barter if you want lower prices at shops, so it is entirely separate from charisma. I don't feel confused anymore about hacking or sneaking or what my skills do in relation to my stats and perks. Which has been great, as making that shit cumbersome and opaque has hurt similar games in the past.

There's a sense of freedom, but a good sense of structure. That "balance" that always gets talked about. Combat isn't perfect depending on what you're looking for, but it's still more engaging than what Bethesda had going on in Oblivion and Morrowind, not to harp on those so much, no one's perfect. The camera in V.A.T.S. has fucked up for me often, but I guess that's kept it from getting tedious, this shit has not gotten old.

Each weapon can have a certain effect on the camera and animation. From using a Combat Shotgun to a Hunting Rifle to a Power Sledge or even just regular melee, the impacts from those VATS animations are very satisfying. You won't always get the same animation on the same weapon in similar situations, but I'm sure it'll run out eventually. It's always a new animation if the camera gets fucked up, though! I've used a hunting rifle and sometimes it'll show the trajectory of the bullet before it hits the victim's head, other times it'll just show the shot being fired from my player character and then the victim getting blasted back.

Uh, I ended up using a Deathclaw and having the victim get tossed a good distance from me after a VATS combat engagement, so while it might not be kung fu awesome, I do like that good sense of blunt impact being in there as well. It only happened once, other times I've chopped off arms or exploded heads with basic slashes. Haven't fucked around with energy or heavy weapons yet, as my character is a scientist/sneak.

It's still a First Person Shooter/RPG mix, so your mileage may vary depending on your interest level. As a skeptic coming in, being coerced by a friend at the last minute (go peer pressure), I'm happy with the result. This game does so much right that the original games couldn't hope to do. With luck, the game will hold up to end game. Barring any unforseen flaws, this game has been great so far.

SWEEET. I also got the hot metallic case and bobble head up next to my TV. I am resisting the urge to play it until I am done with Fable though.

I think that's what really sells it for me. The basic change in scenery did wonders for both the combat and the gameplay.

If there's something I had to gripe about at the moment, it's the hacking. It's literally a guessing game for me so far, I don't enjoy it at all.

That's because you suck at life.

I'm not very far, but VATS more and more seems like it's one of the best alterations to real-time gameplay in quite a while. Makes it seem so silly that I put up with the mad swinging in Oblivion.

Okay, Deni, imagine you walk into a store. And you decide, "HEY! I want a soda! You know it's number one!", except in order to get the soda, you have to go into a green terminal screen and guess a secret codeword to both obtain the soda and make the purchase. Also, you only have 4 chances to guess the proper codeword otherwise you can never purchase a soda from that store ever again for the rest of your life.

But wait, you're a strapping young lad, and you know now that if you just leave the store and come back, you get 4 more guesses! Great! Oh... wait... you just realized upon your return that by leaving the store, the codeword has changed and then you have to go through the whole process of elimination ALL OVER AGAIN.

The codeword keeps changing... there's no logic or reason to the purchase of your soda.

You are in a video game.

You cannot die, the auto save keeps reviving you into this hellish hell of hell.

I don't see how my love of difficult to obtain soda has anything to do with your utter lack of worth.

Can't say you liking crap ever surprised me!

But... but. I like you!

http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/0...ou-like-me.gif

Yes No [No Deni Club Member]

But are we talking about a soda he wants to buy or one he has to buy to progress because if it's the former he could always, you know, just not buy it.

I haven't hit a terminal I've HAD to hack in order to progress through the main game just yet, though.

So you can save yourself the hellish hell of hell by just steering clear of terminals then.

I mean, I really like the game GRID but I'm not a big fan of the Le Mans races. Rather than force myself to play them I just skip them, making the overall gameplay experience that much better. I like GTAIV but I hate the street racing so again, I just don't do it. The chances of you liking every single facet of a game this big are pretty fucking slim so just enjoy the bits you do like and avoid the stuff you don't.

Oh you devil's fag-vocate you.

I said if I HAD to pick something I didn't like about this game, it'd be hacking. What fucking business do you have throwing in a "lesson" here when it was me making a concession to people who might have wanted to know about any negatives I found in the game? You're up on some truly asinine shit right now.

Moreover.

There's usually GOOD SHIT WHEN YOU HACK TERMINALS. You can shut off security in certain areas, or unlock hidden messages or doors, which usually lead to loot or cool story logs. You don't HAVE to successfully hack a terminal in a lot of cases, though not doing it would prove to be a pain in the ass because they usually lead to harder fights and expenditure of precious resources. Plus, hacking just isn't fun to do when it leads to awesome shit.

It sucks you have to play some stupid guessing game where your stat means nothing just do get to the goods. It's just a shitty part I wanted to point out. Honestly, what's your fucking point? I feel irate just reading that dumb shit.

Sorry, I realised I was being a bit of an arse after I posted that.

As a matter of interest, does this work anything like KOTOR where adding skills makes you better at hacking (Obviously at the expense of other skills) or is it always the same mini-game no matter what path you're choosing for your character?

I'd say the latter. From what I've seen, hacking and lock picking give you access to a mini-game where your skill doesn't seem to affect your success rate. I could be wrong, but I haven't noticed my stat making those lock picking or hacking mini-games easier. If a lockpick is "hard to pick" then you have the ability to simply attempt the mini-game with a high enough skill. Which is actually pretty cool when it comes to lock picking, if I do say so myself. That mini-game is very well designed.

Hacking... well, yeah, you're pouring points into a related stat to get the "privilege" of playing a less well designed mini-game.

For the most part I didn't really understand the whole hacking system as it is anyway. From what I could gather the first time around, I thought I would have to put in four or five key codes, and when I figured them all out, the door would open.

However, I hit one word, and it automaically said 4/5 complete. Then after about several walkaways and coming backs, I hit ONE word and the vault opened. So from what I can guess, for each word you hit that ISN'T the password, it's more like a hint as to what the actual word is, and it's a sick game of hide and seek with a blindfold with someone telling you whether you are cold or hot.

That being said, I don't mind the hacking aspects of it, or any real part of the game for that matter, in fact I love every aspect. The gun models seem, at times, a bit clunky and oversized (Pistol and automatic rifle comparison) but other than that the game is gold.

Chiming in to say that this game is fucking awesome. I love it <3

More to come once I can pull myself away for more than a few moments. And here I have a brand new desktop to install =x Hum.

I can't seem to see the difference while adding points to Science. The hacking part remains the same no matter what it appears.

I looked into it and apparently I'm dumb. Go me!

Tutorial on Hacking. - Fallout 3 Message Board for PC - GameFAQs

Thanks for the link, it seems the Science skill does not affect the actual hacking but only as a check to let you hack it or not.

More or less, I said that. Yeah.

I dunno if anybody else is experiencing this, but since my science skill became super huge it seems like there's fewer keywords on the hack screen to choose from.

That would make sense. Makes it so you can choose the correct one easier since your character is now a super hacker cuz smarties are nummy.

Hey does anybody else find that the super mutant's tentacle doggies are just the most adorable things ever to sprout too many appendages? One time I had one just walking around me all chill like and then its master showed up and then it tried to give me hurty kisses. I had to put it down. :(

Finished it last night at level 19 along with a bunch of the side quests (screw Tenpenny Tower, more like Speech Tower).



My favorite moment in the game though was:



All in all it was enjoyable...I have a save close to the end, so I can do the rest of my side quests, but I'm not sure if I enjoyed it as much as Oblivion. Less than 10 quests in the main story line? Bleh.

This doesn't even matter, quicksaving+quickloading is the easiest way to take care of the problem, just pick the first four options every time then quickload it's faster than figuring the puzzle.

Dunno if any of you realize this but if you just choose three and then quit the console and open it up again it let's you do it from scratch once more. It's only until four failures that it locks up on you. So I just guess three times, exit console, access it again, double click, guess three more times, repeat until I figure out what the password is. Not too difficult. Most I ever have to do it is 10 times. Goes by quickly and they do tell you how many letters in the password you got right out of however many letters there are. It's not as unfair as you make it out to be.

I don't quite understand the issue with the hacking game where people have so many problems.

I'm going to go find a terminal in the game right now and hack it.

Okay, I found a Very Easy terminal, but the principles still apply.

These are the words I see:

The first word overall doesn't matter terribly. The game is good at choosing a group of words that, no matter which one you choose, share letters with most of the others. Let's take TWIGS and go from there.

Lucked out and got 3/5 correct there. Let's see what that eliminates...

Well, damn, this actually worked really well. We have two possible words and three guesses left. For the sake of completeness, let's choose TRIES...

DING!

Now that the answer has been established, let's assume we didn't make such a good word choice. Like FARMS. That would've matched 1 letter. Eliminate all the words that share any number other than 1 letter with FARMS.

This is where looking ahead comes in. If we were to choose TANDY, we'd have to get lucky and hope that's the password. If it isn't, it gives us no information because all the words remaining begin with T, and none of them share anything else with TANDY. We'd get another 1, and the only word eliminated would be... TANDY.

I'd personally choose one of the words that fits in T _ _ _ S. Choosing THUGS at this point leaves us with TRIES and THREE, and 2 guesses left. Another guaranteed win. Choosing TWIGS leaves TRIES, and choosing TOMES also leaves just TRIES.

Be warned, though. The seven-letter and eight-letter words later on throw a lot of monkey wrenches into this, and you have to be extra careful. The upside is that with more letters comes more opportunities for the words to differ from each other; I've had more trouble with 5-letter terminals than 7-letter.

I will admit that there is some luck in the opening choices that factors into this. As you saw, I randomly picked TWIGS and it guaranteed my win. Picking blindly, or worse, picking based only on your most recent guess can doom you.

Maybe I'm just too much of a word geek, but I find this hacking game to be quite fun.

HEY LOOK IT'S A TUTORIAL ON HACKING, GUYS

Oh sorry, I glossed over the link because it said GameFAQs.

Still leaving mine up.

Additional Spam:
The biggest complaint I keep hearing (from Skills lol) is that luck factors into it, and to a certain extent it does. The right initial word choice can guarantee victory, and the wrong initial word choice can make it a lot harder.

You can still minimize the effects of luck by looking ahead and using strategy, but I guess some people just want to mash A real quick.

Seriously, it wasn't until much later into the game that I actually read the side bar beyond YOU HAVE THIS MANY TURNS LEFT BEFORE I GO APESHIT AND BY APESHIT I MEAN LOCK UP ON YOU UNTIL YOU LEAVE THE MAP to see that it gave you hints on how many letters out of the word you got right. I completely went at it by guessing and thinking what words looked interesting while using my process I told you about before. It isn't really hard. Just takes a bit of time.

Did you listen to my problems with the thing or not? I had issues with many more aspects of it than just "luck lol".

I know you dislike the lack of effect that the stat has on the game. I was trying to focus on the game itself.

Regarding PC version: I lucked out for about 17 hours and had only the occasional CTD when I was already quitting, or a random crash here or there, but it seems like they're increasing in frequency now.

Codec Investigation Project - Bethesda Game Studios Forums

Bethesda says they think it's codec related, but the bottom line is that no one's isolated the problem yet, so us PC users are getting the shaft for now. :(

There's a patch up that claims to fix some of the CTD issues, but by no means all of them.Hopefully that thread helps some of you that are having problems.

I hear the patch has nothing to do with fixing the crashes?

Patch release notes are neat!

Fuck I was just guessing words from terminals that related to the area that the terminal was in. It sure seemed to be working for the most part. Now I can do that and guess what the word is from the number correct thing. =D

I like how a detailed explanation of the hacking minigame takes up an entire page of the manual

Hilariously incompetent pirates ITT

Seriously? Seriously?

I'm playing the PS3 version, and I haven't so much as glanced at the manual once. Christ on a bike, it even offers you an explanation of how it works the first time you start it up.

Well dude, I didn't really think that I was wrong, and wasn't having any major issues so manual wasn't necessary and I don't even recall reading the hacking tutorial. Anyway, the passwords do tend to relate to setting.

Anyway, I don't sometime look at the manual right away anyway, especially for rpgs which sometimes gives away characters and minigames that I would like to come across while playing before knowing about.

share your manual.pdf on saxypunch tia

No need, friend! The manual is already freely available to any yahoo who wants it.

http://store.steampowered.com/manual/22300/

The hacking is pretty bloody annoying, but I eventually figured out that when it says, say, "4/9 correct" it means both correct letter and correct position. Which helped quite a bit. Still didn't like it much (if at all), though.

Would you guys shut up about the hacking already? Seriously even if your Science skill is low it's fucking easy. Try 3 times, figure out which words that have a lot of similar letters, let the letter position hints guide you as you select words, on third failure power the console down, and just repeat all of this until success.

You know what actually kind of pisses me off? The fucking lack of bobby pins lying around. Sure I guess you wouldn't find them just everywhere but god damn was I ever low on them throughout the game.

I actually had quite a large amount of bobby pins left over by the end of the game. And I picked quite nearly every lock I came across, too.

In theory you should never need more than 1 bobby pin, since (like the hacking game) if you quit your attempt after three missteps you get a fresh start.

Honestly, after a while I could pick most locks on my first try, so I never really resorted to that. And (slightly) later on, when the harder locks started to appear, I had enough bobby pins on me to make me not have to worry about breaking one or two.

Yeah, it would have been nice if achieving 100 points in the lockpicking skill would let you force lock successfully every time but no it doesn't. So ended up quicksaving every time I found a lock because fuck that door might be the only way in and fuck if I'm going all the way back because of some screwed up force lock because I ran out of bobby pins AGES ago.

Additional Spam:
Oh fucking hell Pang, now don't I feel like a fool. :(

Additional Spam:
In my defense (hardly one I know) Oblivion's lockpicking had been so drilled into me that the thought never occurred to me. I fucking had Oblivion's mouse flicking and timing skill down pretty damn well.

In theory you only need one if you don't break the pick, but not every one can pick every lock without it breaking. I don't even know what game you are playing.

Or you could do what a smart person does and stop and restart the process before it breaks.

As previously mentioned.

READING!

COMPREHENSION!

HURRAY!

I don't need to I have enough and usually it only takes me two, three times max. WOW!

Yeah, except we're not talking about your experience. We're talking about theory for people who aren't as good at it as you are. You know. Since you brought up theoretical discussion.

LANGUAGE!

Or you could not keep looking for an argument and maybe people can actually discuss the game for once, without mini-game and Oblivion talk. As the other flying username guy already said.

So has anyone found any skill books for the Small Guns skill? So far I've found 2-5 of every other skill book, but I haven't found Small Guns.

I don't really want a hint about where they are, but what I'm curious about is what they look like (i.e. are they the same color as a desk and easy to miss.)

http://www.saxypunch.com/miscimg/Guns_and_bullets.JPG

So yeah, pretty tough to spot.

Ouch, I'm guaranteed to have missed a few of those. Thanks for the pic.

Shite. They look almost exactly like ruined/destroyed/other dummy book objects.

I haven't finished the game yet, though I do want to say that I felt like the game just fell apart on me. I mostly have a dissatisfaction with my character's final development at level 20. I'm waltzing around in Power Armor, but I'm more often than not using the SP versions of Combat Shotgun/.308 Rifle/.34 Rifle. I can't say I'm a fan of the Big Guns tree of weapons and from what I hear, Energy might not be all that better.

I feel like certain actions I took in the beginning just doing whatever the hell I wanted have sort of nerfed the main quest for me. Things just feel tedious, and I think hitting 20 before even being half-way through the main quest might have done it. I'm probably going to start a new character and just try to apply a bit of the knowledge I gained from my previous game and hopefully finish Fallout 3. I still feel its Bethesda's best game, but I'm at a loss for what happened in my own game.

Aye, I hear you. I'm on level sixteen, and for the past few level-ups we've put all the available skill points into energy weapons after resorting to nothing but big guns most of the game. Pretty sure we went about ten levels straight using the Chinese Assault Rifle before we got to Raven Rock a few days ago and suddenly discovered Plasma Rifles.

Anyway, I like to think of a first character as something of a dry run in open-ended RPGs like this. It's already decided that we're going to play an asshole woman who specialises in unarmed. Gonna re-roll as soon as we finish the main quest.

Are you guys playing on PC or console? I remember some people came out with a mod for Oblivion that removed the lousy auto-correcting difficulty (for some reason I don't think a wolf should have a 20% chance of killing me no matter what level I am...) in favor a more traditional mostly-static difficulty areas. I imagine for the PC a similar mod will come out within a reasonable amount of time, so you might not want to play the game to death yet.

I'm thinking of sticking it out to finish the main quest, just to have it done, but I think re-rolling would be the best solution for myself at the moment.

I'm on the 360, though from what I've read, Fallout 3 would more than likely run on my laptop. I'm weighing my options at the moment, I'll have to see how the 360 version pans out for me. Also, the difficulty seems fine depending on what enemies you're fighting, though Sneak and Death Sprint (something like that, Level 20 VATS Perk in any case) can be game breaking at times. Deathclaws can be a pain in the ass in numbers no matter how good your stats are.

I'm playing on the PS3. The whole difficulty-scaling malarkey isn't anything I've come across yet. At least, not on the same level that Oblivion had it...

Oh, and for people playing on PC: the child-killing-and-looting mod came out recently.

Child-killing mod? Now that is good news.

And, honestly, based on my first run through the game I see no point in putting skill points into energy weapons or big guns since, well, the Chinese Assault Rifle is more than powerful enough to last through the game. Ammo gets very plentiful later on too, so yeah. No big deal.

Then there's Lincoln's Repeater, which is just, for lack of a better term, fucking awesome. .44 ammo isn't as plentiful as 5.56mm or shotgun shells but when you can kill most things with one or two shots it's not really a problem, is it?

Oh man there is some awesome loot I found last night.

Vengeance - which is a souped up laser gatling gun that dishes out damage like you wouldn't believe. You have to go through the fucking caves of the Death Claw Sanctuary found in the mountains in the western side of the map (might be a bit north too - can't quite recall). It's the place that Enclave is capturing Death Claws from with mild success if the piles of Enclave officers and soldiers inside are any indication. You have to go deep into the cave to find it though. It's in a radiated red pool filled with bodies. It's delicious.

A bit east of that place is a drive-in movie lot and north of that is some sort of platform for a power station or radio station (memory is a bit fuzzy) but suddenly something falls from the sky. Fucking alien gun and its alien ammo. Takes down death claws in 2 or 3 shots. Shoots a fast ball of energy out that travels great distances which not only does a ton of damage but sets the enemy on fire. I'm fucking Marvin the Martian.

I love these weapons so much.

I think the gun-from-the-sky thing is actually a random event.
Fucking nice weapon, though. 70ish base damage if I remember...

I found that last night too.

Just got this game, Been playing like mad.

I really like this game and all, But its so easy to get detract from the main quest, And Its starting to piss me off.

By the way i think i lost my "Bittercup" glitch, :( Pappy never opened up regarding his you know.


On other note, I am heading to National Archives right about now, I've leveled up Speech,Small Guns, and now Stealth.. Any other that might benefit my character?

So you're easily distracted, and because the game offers options, this is pissing you off? I'd say learn to enjoy the experience of a game and stop worrying about completing some 'main' story quest.

Besides, if you don't "get distracted" from the primary questline, the game lasts about 20 minutes.

Don't mind him. He's just too used to his slightly interactive storybooks. He'll come around. Maybe.

lol Wrong wording there, Anyway i love the game, (been playing it for 6 hours straight) What i mean is, I just hate that whenever i feel i am about to finish a quest, something pops out, And i just can't leave it alone.


Anyway i might grab this for the PC, due to mods.

Well, the first expansions have been announced; most of them being relatively small. Though, really, I'd be surprised if they announced a Shivering Isles-type deal for Fallout 3, at least this soon after release.

First up is Operation: Anchorage, which has you placed in a military simulation to reenact the liberation of Anchorage from the commies. That's January.

February's sounds a bit odd. In that one you travel to the Pitt, a raider colony, located in the remains of Pittsburgh. I guess it's big enough to let you decide how you want to treat the colony (probably either destroy it or make it prosperous).

The last one, in March, is called Broken Steel. In it, you join the Brotherhood for a final campaign to purge the Enclave from the Capital Wasteland. It's supposed to pick up after the story ends, so I wonder how it'll work if you...


Also, the official G.E.C.K. game mod comes out for the PC next month as well. Slightly envious.

And as I understand it, they're 360/PC exclusive.

Which puts me and the other two people out there who bought it on the tripple in a right mire. I don't know; I find it incredibly unlikely that the DLC won't make it to the PS3. I wager we'll get a big GOTY bundle late next year at the very least.

An ending? We'll put it in an expansion.

Finally started on this game after beating a few others. I'm having fun so far. Ended up going lockpicking/speech/energy weapons. I have a decent starting medicine too mostly due to high intelligence plus finding that bobblehead right away. Ended up killing the Overseer. Hope that doesn't ruin the end somehow. Amata wasn't exactly happy when I left as a result. Well she was happy I left but in an unhappy way.

Are any of the DLCs worth getting? I've gotten Operation Anchorage, but it was kind of a disappointment. What about the other 2?

Anchorage wasn't great. Pitt was certainly more interesting, but not really worth the points I dropped on it.

2 more DLCs announced, and PS3 owners are screwed no longer:

Bah. I traded the PS3 version in for the 360 version in anticipation of Anchorage. Ah well.

I'm sure the NMA cocksuckers are going to be pissed as all hell at the prospect of an alien-themed expansion. How dare they include something as unrealistic as extraterrestrial life in a game set in a retro-futuristic post-apocalyptic setting rife with completely feasible creatures like angry green mutants, giant talking lizards and immortal nuclear zombies with trees growing out of their skulls? Bethesda have turned a franchise about a plausible, isometric, turn-based future into a preposterous flight of fancy.

If the alien blaster found at the crash site during the regular game is any indication, I can't wait to see the new weapons in the Mothership Zeta expansion. It's so much fun wandering through Megaton turning everyone into piles of ash with one shot.

I doubt it will happen, but it would be really nice if at least one of these increased the level cap to 35-40. Shooting things is more fun when you're getting experience, but from what Mo0 tells me it isn't difficult to reach the current cap of 30 just by playing through Broken Steel.

It is difficult just by playing through Broken Steel. Even if you kill the infinite spawn enemies constantly.

You don't have to be an "NMA cocksucker" to realize that it's still a fucking stupid idea. Aliens simply shouldn't have a place in Fallout outside of an easter egg. Fallout is about surviving in post apocalyptic America. If I wanted to play a game about shooting aliens, I'd play ANY OTHER FUCKING GAME IN THE FUCKING WORLD.

I seriously hope I'm not the only person who thinks that an alien abduction is retarded.

I dunno, as long as it works like Operation Anchorage and the Pitt it would be easy to treat Mothership Zeta as a bonus level of sorts. Sure it doesn't fit at all with the rest of the game, but it could still be pretty fun.

Personally, I'm still hoping for a DLC involving the Commonwealth. That institute of high technology you hear about from the doctor who's lost his android sounds pretty spiffy and perfect for exploration.

It'll probably wind up being as retarded as it is entertaining.
To hell with that. I'm hoping that they bring out the whole commonwealth/MIT area as a huge content pack similar to Shivering Isles. They'd be bonkers to not release a proper expansion somewhere down the line...

The problem is that they keep releasing DLC. I want to play other games, but no, I just keep getting sucked back into Fallout.

lololololololololololollololololololollololo

8 times the content for only 3 times the price? No, these one shots are what we're gonna get.

Don't believe me?

Peter Hines said so.

In this article: We get told

Billions of bags of broken black dicks.

Well, hopefully that Vegas spinoff will fill the gaping hole.

I'm just waiting for a bunch of DLC to come out so I can hopefully get it in pack form for cheaper and it'll feel more like a full-sized expansion pack.

It's a bit of a shame a game as large and expansive as Oblivion is getting these tiny add-ons. I mean, most of their quests are pretty generic cookie-cutter, how hard is it to randomly generate some more terrain and throw in more fetch/collect quests?

Well, I think you guys are forgetting that Oblivion got one major expansion pack and not much else. Knights of the Nine was the closest equivalent to the Fallout DLC packs in terms of length and price, and all the other things were one building and an associated quest. The amount of content released by the end of these 5 packs is probably going to be about the same as was in Shivering Isles, just released in bite-sized pieces. I can live with that.

And also BZ hitting level 30 on Broken Steel isn't hard at all, the fuck are you talking about. By the end of the main quest you're almost level 27, and the sidequests bring you up at least one level, and I had maybe 2 quests to do from the original main game that brought me to about 28 and change. After that you just explore a few buildings and kill some super mutants, once you have the Tesla Cannon you shouldn't be having trouble killing ANYTHING in one or two shots aside from behemoths, albino radscorpions, and whatever those new non-behemoth super mutants are.

And RR, since your post appears to have been made before they announced this, they are releasing two retail packs of DLC.

The first one's out now, and it runs $20 for Operation: Anchorage and The Pitt.
The second one will (I'm assuming) be $30, come out in August (?) and have Broken Steel, Point Lookout, and Mothership Zeta.