Holy cow: was anyone aware of Square's iron policy on copyright?
 

I was pretty impressed with how fast they responded, at least:

Well? Is that way too ridiculous or is that fair for a company such as Square-Enix? I mean they certainly have every right to deny me, but given the context of the request I personally think it's a little harsh. I kind of figured I'd get this kind of response going in, but it couldn't hurt to try. Does anyone know: are all entertainment companies like this? I have not written for permission from anyone else so I wouldn't know.

Fuck em, just do it.

Like anyone would actually know/care/be upset that it's from FFII and you didn't get permission?

I'm sure your response was just a standard automated message that they send out to everyone who asks about using their intellectual property. I mean, they don't shut down sites like OCRemix or VGMix.

I'd love to know the explanation behind the tons of Final Fantasy doujin music that is being sold in comikets and doujin shops every year in Japan. =/

My thoughts exactly but unfortunately part of the criteria for the project is to prove that we've gotten permission, if a copyright still exists for the piece.

So edit the email and print it off?

As far as I know (In Canada atleast), you are free to perform copyrighted music so long as you are not charging money. Just do it.

Fuck.
Them.
Period.

Just do it. If someone from SE is there, complaining, just say "OSHI~ Coincidences :'D What is this final fantasy you speak of."

Forget Final Fantasy. Find a song from a game (series) that hasn't been arranged to death already. Also, this way you don't have to worry about S-E.

Since you are arranging for a woodwind ensemble, you should tackle Lost Planet (Trigun) by Tsuneo Imahori. It calls for an oboe, two clarinets, a flute, and a bassoon.

Just perform it.

US and Australian Performing Rights Association cannot be stopped by square in terms of perfomance ^^

Seraph: Cool to see another Aussie here :)

What's this Performing Rights Association you speak of?



Cellius: As a business law student, I'm a little well-versed in copyright and IP laws. because no such precedent case exists, I don't actually think it's proven that a game company can sue you for taking an original piece of game music and tweaking it. The Australian laws use phrase such as 'substantially similar' when talking about whether a work infringes or not, whcih leads me to hope the idiocy of laws like Australia's Copyright Act or even worse, the USA's DMCA, can be overcome by some common sense.

I've never understood the notion of being sued for enhancing/working with game music and not profiting off of it, or even stopping the company itself profit off it by releasing it as free. It's absolute madness, and shows how out of touch lawmakers are in our society.


Which brings me to the more obvious points- no matter how 'legally right' or even legally hopeful you or I might be, we don't have the resources a company like SquareEnix does.

And to be honest, under the relevant US laws (the DMCA) I think it's in all likelihood, copyright infringement. <shrugs> But I haven't lost sleep over that yet ;)


As for your teacher, are they likely to contact SquareEnix and ask if you got permission? Sounds to me more like an 'honour system' where they simply put the onus on you, but never actually follow it up. Kind of like University/college assignment plagiarism checks.


At any rate, it's no 'iron policy'. It's actually a default policy of most organisations. You'd be horrified at some of the more stupid examples (I have a couple for you), SquareEnix looks tame in comparison with the email they sent you.

Regards,
- Spike

Look at APRA.com.au

Here's what to remember:

"Because we receive numerous requests, our policy is to decline any use of our copyrights."

As said by others, they don't have the time to actually THINK for a moment that it won't hurt them. IT's more of a "Let's see, we could spend ten minutes for a short discussion or 10 seconds with the standard response. Hmmm, 20 other e-mails huh? Response it is! Neeeeeext!"

I think it's more a "officially deny authorisation just in case ..." thing. They won't actually hunt you if you don't make profit with it or anything.

Well, also they can't prove it, since it's not like VGM sharing or anything where he's reproducing the work in any tangible form. So, that's not the issue here. But I can understand the problem with the teacher. But as I said, sounds unlikely that they'd check up either.

- Spike

Yeah, I wanna say "fuck 'em, just do it" too. :(

But since the criteria is that you need permission, and as Kaleb.G said, you should be able to find something outside of Final Fantasy and Squenix. Plus it'd be interesting to see how other companies are with granting such permissions, at least at that level of simple e-mail (?) request.

I'd be interested in seeing some of these examples if you have them on hand.

I'm not especially keen on writing to other gaming companies. The project's due soon anyway and I can default to a classical piece that has no copyright. I think that these corporations' fascist policies on fair use contribute to the piracy, if only out of spite. Kind of a shame.

Well, I've heard original FF8 and Xenogears music being used blatently in some old Taiwanese and Hong Kong drama serials. I really doubt the producers got permission from the then Square for permission (because they probably would have been rejected). As of today, I haven't heard any news in the papers about the drama serial producers getting into trouble.

On another note, there was this one time I did a very amateurish arrangement of an FF song for a project. Actually, it was an arrangement of some else's arrangement. :p My lecturer had no qualms at all since I wasn't in any danger of selling it for profit or something. And no, I didn't write to Square.

Wow, in fucking series now? They sure got no shame ...

Companies in Japan has loose policy regarding this doujin-culture, they allow the artists to make minor profit and produce spinoff fanproduction to encourage the birth of new professionals and also helping make their franchise more popular.

Tt seems the Square Enix has different policy overseas, considering One Ups must pay license for their albums while there are tons of unlicensed, arranged SE albums in the japanese doujin markets (and the japanese websites. Type site:jp "mp3" "Final fantasy" and you will produce a lot of japanese music doujin groups).

But well, perhaps if Cellius lived in Japan, the story would have been much different. Squere Enix in USA seems has different perception of managing their artist's copyright with the Headquarter in Japan. Perhaps you should have sent email to Square Enix in Japan instead the one in the States!

I think the Xenogears songs were "Light from the Netherworld" and short catches of the Blackmoon Forest theme for the Taiwanese period serial. The Hong Kong serial (about modern day vampires) used FF8's "Fithos Lusec Wecos Vinosec" almost everytime this villainess with big hair appeared. It was very hilarious. I think "Succession of Witches" was used in some spots as well for variation but my memory's a bit foggy.

And yes, I have some problem understanding double standards in Japan and the rest of the world with respects to VGM fan arrangements for profit or otherwise.

Ohh someone who has seen what Ive seen! The Taiwan drama called Justice Bao ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judge_Bao ) used alot of music from Resident Evil 2, like Ada's theme and the RPD police hall theme. Liber Fatali was used in a HK drama called "My date with a Vampire 2", which I believe is what you were refering to. Alot of anime music was used in the past as well, and FFX's Chocobo theme was used in a Jockey horse racing commericial for the Jockey cable channel 18 in Hong Kong.

I have never heard of Xenogears being used though, what show was that, or what scene was it played on?

The reason they do this? Simple, an average veiwer is not gonna regonise the music, only the gamers will, and I know alot of guy gamers in HK may regonise some FF music, but probably won't notice or bother with it too much. HK TV producers know they can get away with it cause its not that well known, and probably through some copyright loopholes as well. The only time such people were caught was a Taiwan recording company that used the theme song from the game "Air" and put it in some new hot shot singer's album as a piano track.

Fans send letters to the Company Key who made the game and they got in trouble, all CDs were recalled.

If it keeps happening, Im sure fans will start sending letters to tell them to knock it off. But a music CD probably has more evidence than a TV show, unless people bothered taping it.

I made a topic on this subject, we could try to carry it on there, any other VGM you heard from the Taiwan or HK shows?

http://www.gamingforce.com/forums/ge...ia-events.html

Square has no right to deny you this. See § 110 of Title 17 (U.S. Copyright Law):

Fuck these bastards. Just to see how they'd respond, I decided to reply to their email with the information in ElectricSheep's post (among other things supporting fair use):
To which they immediately replied with the exact same message as before, but with a curt sentence at the end:
I have a feeling I won't be paying for anything with the S-E logo on it anymore.

Heh, I really wonder if it is the final response and answer to the question.

I think it's solely to do with the fact there's no copyright law in Asia. I heard lots of American and Japanese copyright music in Chinese movies all the time; Star Wars, Aladdin, and some video game soundtracks just to name a few.

Okay, so I guess I was wrong?

ElectricSheep is right. If you're using it for educational purposes, those shit-wits can piss and moan all they want but the law is on your side. If you really want to be a spiteful bastard, make a recording of your performance and mail it to them with a note that says "eat me." You might also include a copy of S107 stating the fair-use status of educational performances.

Of course, only do this if you like courtroom headaches.

I think the thing is, we're arguing about legal and moral rights. SquareEnix simply couldn't give a fuck about that stuff. It's much easier under US copyright law to threaten and ignore legitimate fair use users because not only do they not make you any money, they may even 'shock! horror!' use your property to do something useful.

Think Blizzard v bnet for an example of US copyright law (good old EFF: http://www.eff.org/IP/Emulation/Blizzard_v_bnetd/ ) .

Not quite the same thing, but as I said, very few cases about this sort of thing.

Well, you know of Apogee (now 3DRealms), right? They made classic platformers like Duke Nukem back in the early-mid 90's (1991-1995), before 3D Realms bought them and crappified them. But anyway.

The tunes weren't even in MIDI format, but in a proprietary Adlib format called 'IMF'. More or less a kind of Adlib MIDI file.

3DRealms says anyone who reproduces the content is not only breaching the law with respect to their company, but the original composer (ex-lawyer, Robert Prince, most famous for composing Doom) also has some ridiculous draconian stance.
This isn't exactly the point I want to convey, but check this out:
http://www.bpmusic.com/m/midi.html

That's the page where he's converted old IMF files to 'General MIDI' MIDI files.

He's also done things like remove his files from VGMusic.com and even his own website, now.

He also doesn't allow anyone (say, me ;) ) to reproduce his MIDI files as digital, i.e. make a gamerip or enhanced gamerip.

Not that that would stop me, I'm just saying. It sucks having to do things illegally.

Apogee's a bunch of bastards though, still charging for 'legally burnt' copies of their games that are almost as old as I am.



Anyway. Also, Vivendi Universal who now owns Sierra. The well-known site "Quest Studios" was threatened with shutdown for the usual, breaching intellectual property. QS had come into existence in the mid 90's because Sierra employees requested the at the time mini site to do it 'unofficially officially'. Kind of ironic.
QS has to sign a 'contract' that amounted to a "we won't sue you if you forfeit all your rights to us" waiver. They technically own his original compositions on his site. It's insane.

If my site ever gets big enough, I'm sure I'll get one too. not sure what to do about that.

The law's different. Maybe Japan isn't a signatory to the Berne convention, 1886: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_C...Artistic_Works

But it sounds that more likely, these companies are Japanese and since most doujin game music is Japanese game music, it's probably a moot point.

Can't believe the email you got, Cellius. Rude pricks.

- Spike

Heh ... That part about Doom and Robert Prince makes me sad. Funny how most often, your view of things is darkened when you enter the details.

Not all are like this, though. Alice Soft allows their old games to be dowloaded, for example.

http://retropc.net/alice/

I may not know the full behind the scenes, but thanks to Key, its safe to say that HK producers do it cause they get away with it, they used to use film music as well, I heard music from John William's Home Alone being used in an older HK drama as well. They stopped probably cause they know they're walking a thin line if they do it again.

Also the bastards at the record company that plagarised Air denied that they did anything wrong, claiming they did get the rights, but it wasn't finalised when the album was release, Key response summed it up as bullshit they made up to not lose face.

Before I know about Square's iron fist on everything they own, I wanted to report the stuff I saw on TV to them, but now I really don't think they deserve to know. Sure HK TV people are cheap bastards, but if Square's gonna get all uppity about it if they find out its their problem for not looking out. Interesting that despite their huge fan base in Taiwan and HK, no one reported this, guess Key is much more popular company than Square.

Going to Video Games Live and not seeing any Square image on the screen irked me. At least the guys behind the show compensate by getting Disney images to the KH music, and Cosplayers for One Winged Angel. Nice to see effort and fan tribute being used despite the company's iron fist, hope they are at least aware of their fans...

Yeah well ... It's easy to tell this from out user-end view. Maybe granting permission to arrange their copyrighted material is much more complicated on a juridic plan, and that it could lead to issues for them when suing actual copyright breakers.

Just saying, it's easier to say "NO" to everyone to be able to choose who you actually want to presecute later.

It's understandable in one sense, the "insanely not practical to answer a hundred fair use request a day" sense.

But they should change the company policy to define what they allow very simply (maybe have a default email reply that links people to the information). That'd be better than "you can't use our stuff" which isn't legally or morally defensible.

I find it very hard what the problem would be in someone like Cellius performing a once-off in a classroom. It certainly gives legitimacy to piraters like us at GFF, in my opinion.
Hell, I'd hate to see what they thought if he'd asked if he could upload a FF album or something! ;)

As for Robert "Bobby" Prince, he strikes me as being an ex-lawyer who's very moralistic. On his website he mentions stuff like that you should "download legal MP3's". I think he links to some program to stop sharing.
Check this link to his site out for the exact wordage:
http://www.bpmusic.com/

It's a shame. Almost no Apogee soundtracks have gamerips, which is partly our fault for not doing it, but for those legal minded folks it's definitely Apogee's deterrents and thus their fault. I can't stand the fact that good quality fan created content is stopped being produced or released by greedy corporations.

Here's a killer for you- Mark Seibert, composer of a lot of Sierra games, wants to make new recordings of the old games' music. But he won't, or won't release them, because of Vivendi's policy of noone using their copyright. In his own words, "I don't want a lawsuit or any of that hassle, it's just not worth it.".

<sigh>

- Spike

Ah well, it's disgusting, but we know what to expect from huge corporations like Vivendi ... I mean, It's not by the will of the artist himself.

But yeah, it sucks.

Bro, it's practically an automated response. They don't know you, so there's no point in being offended. It ain't that deep.

Why are people up in arms about this anyway? It's a school performance, you're fine. And if you really wanted to arrange SE pieces and be legally allowed to profit off it, you just fill out the appropriate compulsory license papers, and that's it. You'd pay SE some $, but you'd be legally allowed to distribute what you made.

It's the principle of the matter. And I think it opens up a lot of old wounds for people like Niki and myself who distribute VGM and create it sometimes, and for our hard unpaid work, we get potential lawsuits.

How I feel anyway.

- Spike

About the doujin stuff mentioned earlier, I believe the reason why there is so much fan-produced material being sold in Japan has to do with the fact that there aren't that many lawyers in Japan. There apparently have been some lawsuits reported, but it's not a major crackdown.

In the US, there are many more lawyers and more companies seem keen on keeping an iron fist on their copyrights. While they may not have the right to prevent people from making remixes or using things under 'fair use' there are HUGE problems related to this.

First off, 'fair use' is incredibly vague and not as clear-cut as we might think - you really need to pay a lawyer to get the 'go ahead' slip (and that's not guaranteeing you can get sued anyway and then your lawyer can get sued for malpractice). It's also incredibly difficult to calculate how you should pay all the different parties involved in a project to remix material simply because nobody keeps serious track of it. It can take years and lots of lawyer time.

Second, companies like Square-Enix are big companies and so if they wanted, they could push lawsuits to sue anybody they thought was making money off their work to within an inch of their life (certainly not as bad as Fox though - you do NOT want to mess with those bastards). It doesn't really matter if you defend against them in court, either: for one, it's pretty damn expensive, and they have better lawyers. You COULD win, but you'd bankrupt yourself in the process - that is, if the trial doesn't fold first because you can't afford to keep going (there are some instances where the accuser simply has enough resources that he can drag the trial on for so long that you simply can't afford to keep the trial open and it closes, or they just charge you with something else).

Yeah, it's a pretty shitty situation, but in general, companies simply don't have the resources to scourge the Internet and the world in search of copyright infringement (yet...). So they only really have the obligation to go out and send a cease and desist message if they are informed about it. If you send an e-mail to Square-Enix asking if you can do a remix, they will tell you flat out 'no', but if you go out and do it anyway, nobody is going to know unless they get e-mailed. What they don't know about, they don't have the resources to find out about. What they do know about, they have an obligation to at least send a form letter first. If that doesn't stop, then they can use the strong arm. The trouble is, if you already did it and didn't anyone, and then they find out about it because somebody tells them, then you can have a lawsuit on your hands anyway...

Anyway, if anybody wants to know where I've been pulling this information, here's a free pdf book you can take a look at:

ww.free-culture.cc/freeculture.pdf

To be fair, I think a lot of the concepts you talk about, CC, have been raised by others in this thread. :)

- Spike

Apogee and 3D Realms are one and the same. In fact, according to Wikipedia, the actual, legel name of the company is still "Apogee Software, Ltd".

They may still be called Apogee Software, but they refer to themselves almost exclusively as 3DRealms.

Besides, I have another reason to explain Apogee like that- I consider the death of Apogee to be the beginning of 3DRealms, and vice versa. Liked almost every Apogee game, and hated almost every 3DRealms one.

- Spike

Hmm......I contacted Square Enix about a hundred times thourhg their japanese website, their US website asking for more information on Drag-on Dragoons music, such as unsed tracks for that game, or full versions of the pieces used in the FMVs. All I got was emails back saying Sorry, We cannot help you, look at the in game credits for any information. So I tried contactning the composers Takayuki Aihara and Nobuyoshi Sano. No luck. They don't even seem to exist any more. So last but not least I tried contacting Super Sweep themselves. All I got back was an email in very bad grammar saying you letter may be to answered shortly. Thank you!!!

Other than going to Japan myself.....I don't have another way of contacting them.

On topic? I sent an email to Namco about the R;Racing music. They also said look at in game credits and check with the composer. I emailed them asking them if it was alright to remix their music, and they never got back to me. So I asked them a couple more times, and eventually they sent me another email answering a question I forgot I'd asked them in the first email about Soul Caliber 3. The answer was: We decided to concentrate on one platform, rather than release it multi format. Please feel free to email us again on any more queires you may have.

I thought and I thought, and in the end I gave up. Decided to remix it anyway. Of course I wasn't doing a public performance, but still.