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Phoque le PQ Sep 28, 2006 10:52 AM

same-sex love
 
Just don't forget: it's a GENERAL thread :p

I'm a guy, and i'm in love with another guy. Although I claim not to care about "public opinion", I must say I sometimes feel uneasy to hold his hand or kiss him in public, especially at university. For some reason, heterosexuals seem to have romantic monopoly.

I mean come on, we're keeping our clothes on, we're remaining decent, we're not comitting any crimes...

What is your attitude towards same-sex lovers?

Alice Sep 28, 2006 12:02 PM

I don't want to see anyone making out/dry humping in public - heterosexual or homosexual. Light kissing, holding hands, etc. doesn't bother me at all, whether it's a man and a woman, two men, or two women.

I poked it and it made a sad sound Sep 28, 2006 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland
I don't want to see anyone making out/dry humping in public - heterosexual or homosexual. Light kissing, holding hands, etc. doesn't bother me at all, whether it's a man and a woman, two men, or two women.

I couldn't have phrased it better myself.

I don't like watching anyone do anything outlandishly sexual in public, gay, dyke or straight. I expect people to be courteous enough to respect me, as I am courteous enough to respect them.

Adara Sep 28, 2006 12:46 PM

I don't really give same-sex lovers a second thought, to be honest. If I see a gay couple holding hands or something I just think that it's sweet, which is the same thing that I'd think with a straight couple. Unfortunately most of the people where I live think quite the opposite.

I'm with Alice and Sass on the dry-humping in public thing.

Fatt Sep 28, 2006 04:41 PM

Gay couples never bothered me, but my friend Marvin has a lot of stories of where you can't be if you are gay. In Houston, Texas, everywhere he went with his black lover, they would be stared at. Apparently, in Texas, it was a double whammy to be black and gay.

In Chicago, it isn't so bad. Hell, we have a neighborhood that is so gay it is called "Boy's Town".

soulsteelgray Sep 28, 2006 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fatt
Apparently, in Texas, it was a double whammy to be black and gay.

Piggybacking on being gay in Texas, I got some stares and hushed comments when I went to the mall once with my ex and we held hands. I didn't notice at the time and was only informed of the staring and whispering by my friends, who decided to accompany us on the excursion.

I think outlandishly gross PDAs are, well, gross. I never did them when I had a relationship and I don't plan to ever do PDAs of that nature. Holding hands, sure. Getting cuddly, sure. Playing tonsil hockey, no.

Eleo Sep 28, 2006 05:16 PM

Even as a gay dude, I have to admit that seeing a two people of the same sex holding hands or kissing would draw my attention pretty well, just because it's so unusual.

I can't say I'm against people making out in public, though. I just don't see why I should care or how that's disrespectful.

*AkirA* Sep 28, 2006 05:17 PM

I could honestly care less what anyone does in public. I dont get offended easily, and honestly cant see what there is to get offended about. Im also not homophobic in the least bit. Its proably different in the north, but in the south, everyones highly offended when they see interacial, or homosexual couples out and about.

Its weird when all your friends go quiet when they see a gay or interracial couple, and im the only one whos like, "big fucking deal."

My sisters gay, and I fear for her only because people can be very closed minded sometimes.

VitaPup Sep 28, 2006 05:34 PM

Quote:

Even as a gay dude, I have to admit that seeing a two people of the same sex holding hands or kissing would draw my attention pretty well, just because it's so unusual.

I can't say I'm against people making out in public, though. I just don't see why I should care or how that's disrespectful.
I have to agree with Eleo. I think many people stare not becuase they are offended by anything, but just becuase its not very common to see 2 guys/girls holding hands. I'm not saying that there are not ignorant people out there, just that not all who stare are ignorant.

Infernal Monkey Sep 28, 2006 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland
I don't want to see anyone making out/dry humping in public - heterosexual or homosexual. Light kissing, holding hands, etc. doesn't bother me at all, whether it's a man and a woman, two men, or two women.

I hate it when people feel the need to hold hands on the escalator. WAY TO FORM A BERLIN WALL.

Helloween Sep 28, 2006 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland
I don't want to see anyone making out/dry humping in public - heterosexual or homosexual. Light kissing, holding hands, etc. doesn't bother me at all, whether it's a man and a woman, two men, or two women.

Spoken so well my mind exploaded.

Yeah, i totally agree with that above statement. If i see a homosexual couple i might look twice, or linger a little bit, but it's only cause i haven't really been exposed to that growing up, and you don't see alot of it where i come from. Nothing against Homosexuality, just not used to it.

Kesubei Sep 28, 2006 06:15 PM

I'll admit to being put off at seeing gay guys and girls kissing and showing affection to one another because it's unusual and I was raised in a traditional family. I'm sure that if homosexual PDA became more commonplace I wouldn't care.

lordnmb Sep 29, 2006 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoque le PQ
Just don't forget: it's a GENERAL thread :p

I'm a guy, and i'm in love with another guy. Although I claim not to care about "public opinion", I must say I sometimes feel uneasy to hold his hand or kiss him in public, especially at university. For some reason, heterosexuals seem to have romantic monopoly.

I mean come on, we're keeping our clothes on, we're remaining decent, we're not comitting any crimes...

What is your attitude towards same-sex lovers?

I don't have a problem with it. It is the flamboyant kind of homosexuals that see fit to flaunt their sexuality (and other things) in everyone's face that give the cool gay people at bad rep when they don't deserve it. Bottom line: If you are happy together and can behave in public, then I'm happy for you. :-)

Phoque le PQ Sep 29, 2006 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordnmb
It is the flamboyant kind of homosexuals that see fit to flaunt their sexuality (and other things) in everyone's face that give the cool gay people at bad rep when they don't deserve it. . :-)

same thing here. these people made me hesitate before i could accept my self totally

And pardon my ignorance, but what is PDA?

Fleshy Fun-Bridge Sep 29, 2006 01:08 PM

PDA: Public Display of Affection.

Vkamicht Sep 29, 2006 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infernal Monkey
I hate it when people feel the need to hold hands on the escalator. WAY TO FORM A BERLIN WALL.

rofl

Anyway, my attitude towards same-sex lovers? Umm, it would be odd if I didn't totally approve :)

As far as PDA, I barely EVER see homosexual couples up here in Ohio, but when I met one guy in Cleveland he insisted on holding my hand, and apparently around his campus (Case Western Reserve University) it was a common thing because he wasn't afraid at all and nobody seemed to pay attention to us...? It still felt a bit weird to me. But I don't care.

Jochie Sep 29, 2006 02:14 PM

I only mind PDAs by people I don't find attractive. Otherwise, it would be awesome to have free porn happening everywhere I go each day.

Bubblehead1123 Sep 29, 2006 03:37 PM

i think the reason it may "gross" some people out is because like for me, I have always thought men are supposed to be like uber manly, with deep manly voices, and manly hands, and that dress manly ect. and when i see two guys holding hands or something it just is so un-natural (for me) to see that.. its just something about it that just hits me the wrong way... same thing with women... but that is just my opinion.. i'm not trying to start anything, so please, please don't start a fight or anything, i'm not trying to and i really don't feel like arguing with anyone, i just felt like stating my opinion.

DragoonKain Sep 29, 2006 03:47 PM

Two men kissing each other or being lovey dovey in public I find disgusting. Lesbians however(if they are hot) is very pleasing to the eye. Heterosexuals I really don't care either way.

Terra Sep 29, 2006 06:26 PM

I don't mind at all, be it heterosexual or not. I actually like watching couples make out - makes me happy to see they're in love, and enjoying life.

eriol33 Sep 29, 2006 08:08 PM

I think they are cute. When I see homosexual couple, I imagine story of beautiful boys pairing just like in the shoujo manga. =D

but seriously, I respect other people's sexual orientation, love is universal after all.

Servilonus Sep 29, 2006 10:45 PM

I don't really mind gay people at all, but kind of like Alice said, I think most gratuitious PDAs are overwhelming, straight or gay. I have no moral opposition to any sexuality, so whatever anyone's perrogative is, I'm cool with.

Of course, there are some people that just bother me in thier flamboyancy of exemplifying a stereotype. At dinner last night, there was a table of solely fat, gay theater majors singing 90s pop songs out of key. Jesus Christ, RAPING my ears. No matter what persuasion someone is, I just think acting like the worst stereotype of it is obnoxious.

Phoenix X Sep 29, 2006 11:19 PM

As the Wiccans say, "An it harm none, do what thou wilt." I will admit that it almost always surprises me whenever I see a homosexual couple, and my eyes do tend to linger a little longer than they would on a couple of breeders. :P The reason for that is simple: I'm just not used to seeing it. I've got friends who are homo/bisexual, but that doesn't change the fact that I see heterosexual couples every time I walk down the street, and I almost never see homosexuals that are... together. MOST OF MY FRIENDS ARE SINGLE!! :P

Yeah, I actually don't generally mind seeing them, no matter who is involved. There's a time and place for everything. I'd have no problem seeing ANY couple making out in a park, or by the harbour downtown. Y'know, low-traffic and reasonably romantic areas. I can see wanting to give your partner an uber-passionate kiss under that big beautiful Oak tree. But when I'm hanging at my usual java joint, or shootin' pool at my favorite dive bar, I really don't wanna see that. I mean, you go to these places for the atmosphere, and it kinda takes away from that if there are couples slobbering all over eachother. We don't need to see your most private moments. Jeeze, it's almost like watching someone take a dump! There's an alleyway out back for a reason, folks! ;)

mastermind Sep 30, 2006 02:39 PM

I have not seen any gay couples in public, so I do not know how I would react. Most likely, it wouldn't bother me at all, and I would try to ignore them and go on with my life.

Single Elbow Sep 30, 2006 05:14 PM

Lots of gay couples here in Vancouver. I don't mind what they do, but I've mostly seen holding hands in here. It doesn't matter entirely.

Fatt Sep 30, 2006 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitaPup
I have to agree with Eleo. I think many people stare not becuase they are offended by anything, but just becuase its not very common to see 2 guys/girls holding hands. I'm not saying that there are not ignorant people out there, just that not all who stare are ignorant.

VitaPup actually does bring up a valid point. I can imagine a lot of people have never seen a gay couple show affection for each other, no matter how mild it may be. I just met a black girl this weekend who has never seen a white person before, and she couldn't help but stare and study.

I dunno. It be a double edged sword.

The Wise Vivi Oct 1, 2006 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AliceNWondrland
I don't want to see anyone making out/dry humping in public - heterosexual or homosexual. Light kissing, holding hands, etc. doesn't bother me at all, whether it's a man and a woman, two men, or two women.

Yep, totally agree. I see it fairly often on my campus, (as in about once or twice a week), so iti usually doesn't surprise me.

Erisu Kimu Oct 1, 2006 10:25 AM

Just don't have sex in public. Sometimes, I also get annoyed when some guy and girl start engaging in lengthy smooches as if they're just trying to buy attention. Everything else is none of my business.

Hydra Oct 1, 2006 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AkirA*
My sisters gay, and I fear for her only because people can be very closed minded sometimes.


Yeah, my sister is lesbian and I worry about her whenever she makes that obvious in public. I probably shouldn't because we live in a pretty liberal sort of place, but I still get this sick sort of nervous feeling in my stomach whenever I notice someone noticing. (Can't help it though, I've heard some awful stories, and you always want to protect your siblings.)

It doesn't bother me when people are holding hands or whatever, but PDAs more than a light kiss do bother me (regardless of the participants genders.) I'm not sure why it's troublesome, except maybe that I've now been initiated into the Adult Conspiracy (thank you Piers Anthony.)

Chibi Neko Oct 2, 2006 10:13 AM

I agree with Alice on this topic, kisses, hand holding is fine by me regardless of your sexuality. At the mall in a corner I saw a gay couple really going at it, seriouslly there are better places to it then in the corner of the mall where everyone can watch. No one seemed offended, its just one of those moments that you want to say to the couple 'get a room!'

samari Oct 2, 2006 06:42 PM

I'm gay, and I live in Texas. And I'm in a relationship. Sad to say, I'm scared to even touch my boyfriend whenever we are out in public, for fear of being beat up. It's that bad. =/ The most we'll ever do outside of our apartment is "accidentally" bump eachother or touch eachother or touch hands, etc. And even then only whenever no one is watching.

I cannot WAIT to move somewhere else where we can at least hold hands outside of our house. It's just ridiculous how we are not able to show our affection to eachother except behind closed doors.

wvlfpvp Oct 2, 2006 06:53 PM

Or you could just not care. I wouldn't care if people were staring at me because I was holding hands with a guy in public. Granted, Stephen doesn't do such things at all, but still.

Summonmaster Oct 2, 2006 08:11 PM

Right now, I can say that I don't mind at all, but I have never actually witnessed two guys engaging in any kind of PDA. I would probably try my best to avoid staring or looking since I wouldn't want to be rude. Honestly though, I would probably linger or flinch for a bit, having never ever seen something like that happen. Although I know I wouldn't be judgmental if I saw two guys kissing or holding hands, even though I would appear to be.

.Spartan Oct 3, 2006 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoque le PQ
Just don't forget: it's a GENERAL thread :p

I'm a guy, and i'm in love with another guy. Although I claim not to care about "public opinion", I must say I sometimes feel uneasy to hold his hand or kiss him in public, especially at university. For some reason, heterosexuals seem to have romantic monopoly.

I mean come on, we're keeping our clothes on, we're remaining decent, we're not comitting any crimes...

What is your attitude towards same-sex lovers?

Easy thing for me to say, EWW lol jk.
I think its all good unless you decide to start taking your clothes off in the public and doing something that is totally inappropriate. Ocassionally if it is 2 hot girls I usually tend to raise an eyebrow and smile.

Muzza Oct 3, 2006 04:39 AM

I have no problem with homosexual PDA whatsoever. However, --this happened to me just the other day-- I can't help but feel a bit awkward when I see a homosexual couple holding hands, walking down the street. I have no problem with it but unfortunately most of the surrounding public does... Oh, and for the record I've never seen a lesbian couple in public, just gay couples. =S

Chibi Neko Oct 3, 2006 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muzza
Oh, and for the record I've never seen a lesbian couple in public, just gay couples. =S

You know.... that is very true, I see gay people hold hands and show affection in public all the time, even see them share a kiss or two at the public pool... no lesbians anywhere.

Why is that I wonder?

blue Oct 3, 2006 08:59 AM

It is not very rare to see gay couples showing affection around here; it is, after all, a college town. I get disgusted when I see couples--of any sexual preference--sucking face right out in public, though. They'll just be right there on campus, standing on the sidewalk... I mean, I know you'll have to be away from her for 2 whole hours, but I promise that then you can go home and do whatever it is you do with her.

All that being said, I am morally uneasy about homosexuality. It is not that I don't believe two people of the same sex can be truly in love--it is clear that they can--but I suspect that it is love deviating from what God created. The Bible is very clear on the matter, but as someone who grew up in a very conservative background, I can say that I'm in disagreement with how the church treats gays. Part of it is that they're just old, some of them--old people can get really stubborn and judgemental, you know (my parents being no exception)? We have scared homosexuals away from the church.

I'd like to elaborate more, but I have to leave for class and I'm sure you don't really wanna hear it.

Chibi Neko Oct 3, 2006 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue
All that being said, I am morally uneasy about homosexuality. It is not that I don't believe two people of the same sex can be truly in love--it is clear that they can--but I suspect that it is love deviating from what God created.

I never could understand how homosexuality is considered morally wrong just because a old book thinks so. Being born a homosexual is as natural as being born straight, we just don't see many because many of them are afraid to come out because some societies still persecute them.

Fatt Oct 3, 2006 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko
You know.... that is very true, I see gay people hold hands and show affection in public all the time, even see them share a kiss or two at the public pool... no lesbians anywhere.

Why is that I wonder?

I find this fascinating, because in Chicago, I see a lot more lesbian couples walking hand in hand and kissing more than the gay fellas. Unless you are in Boy's Town (where more than 80% of the population is gay male), I don't see it with the men. My homeboy Marvin, who is a gay man, says "Why would I want to hold hands in public? I may be gay but I'm still a dude." [for more info on Marvin, see my journal.] I don't see lesbians showing public affection often, but there definitely is a difference.

Zio Oct 3, 2006 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko
I never could understand how homosexuality is considered morally wrong just because a old book thinks so. Being born a homosexual is as natural as being born straight, we just don't see many because many of them are afraid to come out because some societies still persecute them.

Because he believes in a religeon. There are many beliefs/books that voice no to homosexuality and it ain't just Christianity either. My belief is since we are all sinners, I feel that I can not judge nor say anything against anyone. Which means, I'm just as evil/sinner as the next gay person or straight person or whatever thier sexuality is. Regardless of what the Bible says, to me, I'll let God sort it out and I'll keep to myself. Which means if you want to know what I believe or my religeon you will come to me as a mature adult and I'll show my beliefs via my actions and etc not by preaching or going out and annoying people.(Who doesn't hate a Johova's witiness?)

Regardless, what you do in private, should remain private cause no one cares who you bang but public there can be a problem such as the ones mentioned earlier. Excessive ammounts of PDA.

Same goes for same sex marriage, I could care less. Whatever doesn't hurt me, doesn't bother me.

Man I think I went off topic but...

/me shrugs.

blue Oct 3, 2006 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko
I never could understand how homosexuality is considered morally wrong just because a old book thinks so. Being born a homosexual is as natural as being born straight, we just don't see many because many of them are afraid to come out because some societies still persecute them.

I must say, that statement sounds rather ignorant. This "old book" is a very valuable historical document, even to non-believers. This same book has incredible teachings, stories, and moral philosophies which were way--and still are, come to think of it--ahead of their time. I myself am unsure of how I feel about the Bible sometimes, to but call it simply "a old book" seems... well... foolish.

Now, people argue often about whether people are "born gay." I tend to think that they aren't--there seems to be no solid proof at this point--but I would definitely consider that some people have a genetic predisposition to be attracted to those of the same sex. However, this is still a poor argument for saying that they should be able to do whatever they are "genetically" inclined to do. Clearly, psychopaths and mass murderers and those who are just downright aggressive have some genetic predisposition toward it. This does not mean we let them act on it. Now, homosexuality is quite a different thing; my point is that using the "genetic" argument is inherently flawed.

Fatt Oct 3, 2006 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue
Clearly, psychopaths and mass murderers and those who are just downright aggressive have some genetic predisposition toward it.

Actually I completely disagree. I used to work for Jay Robert Nash, who was a crime historian. Looking over his work, I came to realize almost all psychopaths (take my favorite, Gacy the birthday clown) and calculated murderers (my favorites again, Jack the ripper, Charles Manson) follow a psycological/sociological background that would lead them to their acts. I also saw my ex-girlfriend turn from carefree flower child in to a psychotic schizophrentic because of the sociological background she was placed in to.

As for homosexuality, I have seen children being raised to go both ways (no pun intended). I have seen two gay men raise a boy who ended up straight, and I have seen two lesbians raise two lesbian daughters. I think for homosexuality, it is a blend of nature and nuture, but how much of which is still a big ass mystery.

Hydra Oct 3, 2006 07:50 PM

Is it really important why someone is gay or straight though? The feelings are just as real either way. Well, I'm just speculating there because I've never been in love with another girl, but it certainly seems like it. </off topicness>

Has anyone here ever been guilty of gratuitous PDA? I did once (seriously, learned my lesson from that), and it made the school newspaper because we just happened to be in the path of a photographer out to get nature shots. Talk about twisted luck. The title of the article was "Decency now, decency."

My boyfriend thought it was awesome, but I was really embarassed.

The Wise Vivi Oct 3, 2006 08:15 PM

I don't think its really important why someone is gay or not. If they are, then so be it. And if they want to hold hands and smooch a little, then fine. Just don't be doing it to show off or anything.

But, nope, I have never really been guilty of gratuitous PDA... mostly because I am single during the University year (Not by choice.... :()

Chibi Neko Oct 3, 2006 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue
I must say, that statement sounds rather ignorant.

The bible is a book, and it is old, so it really is a 'old book'.

The bible does contain historical documents and stories, and one that is utter nonsence cough *Adam* cough *Eve*, but a valuable myth none the less. The fact is that no matter the source, saying that homosexuality is morally wrong is... well... wrong, it is by far more a part of nature then anything else. Fatt said it well about two same-sex parents raising a child that turns out be straight, so your sexual orientation is not something that you choose on.

DarknessTear Oct 3, 2006 09:01 PM

I do not like gay people, male or female. People call this homophobia, but I can guarantee I'm not afraid of gay people. I am afraid of Spiders, though.

sleipner Oct 3, 2006 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko
You know.... that is very true, I see gay people hold hands and show affection in public all the time, even see them share a kiss or two at the public pool... no lesbians anywhere.

Why is that I wonder?

That's cause you have to look more closely. Lesbian couples tend to have one extremely butch mate that looks exactly like a well groomed and handsome man if they're wearing loose clothing. Extremely short hair, probably no make up. The only thing you might be able to see is the outline of a boob.

I'm not homophobic cause my culture (filipino) tends to treat homosexuals as a piece of comedy. In every show I've watched there's always a flamboyantly gay, man who always makes the funniest jokes. I know it's a stereotype we've somehow created that all gay men have to act like girls. but ehh what can I do.

I just hang out with alot of gay people cause they have so much drama.

Zio Oct 4, 2006 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chibi Neko
The bible is a book, and it is old, so it really is a 'old book'.

The bible does contain historical documents and stories, and one that is utter nonsence cough *Adam* cough *Eve*, but a valuable myth none the less.

I don't mean to just to talk about this but Chibi, there is NO VALID proof on how the world was made, it was made and that's final. In reality, creationism or even the big bang could be a big ass myth as well. Either way, we're here now and if there is an after-life rather you believe or not and if we do become enlighten and know whatever or even ask the diety you believe in how the world was made and etc. We'll find out later, if not well then we'll never know.

All I know is, the world is here and we should worry less about how the world was made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarknessTear
I do not like gay people, male or female. People call this homophobia, but I can guarantee I'm not afraid of gay people. I am afraid of Spiders, though.

You aren't a homophobe or whatever for not liking/wanting to be around gays and thier life style. No one makes you accept it. It's how you SHOW IT, it's what count.

If you go around beating up gays or doing whatever, that's wrong but if you quietly say or keep to yourself that you do not think gays -insert random comment.- That is your own opinion and people should respect that.

If you are a homophobe then you'd be like, OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG !!!111111 HE'S GAY GET AWAY BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH... Much like if you are clastophobia and etc.

I could say I don't like the lifestyle of -insert- whatever. And even if it's totally stupid, it's an opinion and that is what counts. Opinions don't harm people, it's when you go above and beyond and claim you must clense/make them turn into something they aren't.

RacinReaver Oct 4, 2006 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zio
I don't mean to just to talk about this but Chibi, there is NO VALID proof on how the world was made, it was made and that's final. In reality, creationism or even the big bang could be a big ass myth as well.

The big bang theory doesn't describe how the universe was created.

Zio Oct 4, 2006 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacinReaver
The big bang theory doesn't describe how the universe was created.

I could have swore it did, it does say in a way the world was but either way, we'll never know what is true.

Sarag Oct 4, 2006 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue
get disgusted when I see couples--of any sexual preference--sucking face right out in public, though.

Do you have a boyfriend? Just wondering.

Quote:

It is not that I don't believe two people of the same sex can be truly in love--it is clear that they can--but I suspect that it is love deviating from what God created.
What is the difference between the love shared between two men and love that God himself created? Be as detailed as you can.

Antignition Oct 4, 2006 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eleo
I have to admit that seeing a two people of the same sex holding hands or kissing would draw my attention pretty well, just because it's so unusual.

Pretty much word-for-word for me.

Maybe it's due to the fact that I don't go to the city often but I rarely see two people of the same sex having any intimate contact in public whatsoever. Rarely as in i've seen it maybe twice.

blue Oct 4, 2006 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieSeLFueLeD
Why did this thread turn into "queers make me uneasy cause I can't look past my bigotted religion?"

It's so much easier to say that than come out with a well-reasoned argument, isn't it?

Chibi Neko Oct 4, 2006 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue
It's so much easier to say that than come out with a well-reasoned argument, isn't it?

That is because what DieSeLFueLeD said does not need much of a argument. Many religions claim that homosexuality is morally wrong and thus spawns biggitory in the conservative believers. I bet if a religion said otherwise, then the believer would not view homosexuality as wrong or immoral.

Phoenix X Oct 4, 2006 10:48 AM

I think far too many people take religion far too seriously. For one, we have no way of knowing how the universe was created, and we never will. If we knew that, we'd probably know how it's going to end, and if we know that, it might as well already be over, ya dig? It's a stupid question to ask because it doesn't help anyone. To paraphrase Albert Einstein, Frank Herbert, and who knows who else: The mystery of life is not a problem to be solved, it is a reality to be experienced.

Second of all, to believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing being that is somehow offended by it's very creations is utterly ludicrous. The Creater I know likes it when her creations change and grow. She's also pretty happy whenever her creations fall in love and, against all odds, make it work and help eachother to, you guessed it, change and grow. How anyone, let alone the Creator, can look at a pair of lovers of any gender and be offended is completely beyond me.

Another point that a lot of people seem to miss is that religious traditions are meant to be a personal philosophy and set of theories that benefits the individual and aids in their development, not a rubric by which to judge those around you. The bible says that homosexuality is an outright abomination, but it also says "Judge not, lest ye be judged." "Modern" Christianity is more of an abomination than a bunch of homos ever was, IMO, because this very simple point is lost to almost all who follow it. I'll remind you that the bible was written fairly early in human evolution, in a time when reproduction was a lot more important than it is now. The big guy (or lady, whichever you prefer) was simply looking out for us at the time, and making sure we didn't die out before we reached a point of stability, but that's hardly a concern anymore. When there are six billion people consuming resources faster than they are renewed, homosexuality ceases to be a threat, and becomes a species-wide survial trait.

Fear and hatred are much bigger threats to our great species than love, don't ya think?

Sarag Oct 4, 2006 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a lurker
Quote:

Originally Posted by blue
get disgusted when I see couples--of any sexual preference--sucking face right out in public, though.

Do you have a boyfriend? Just wondering.

Quote:

It is not that I don't believe two people of the same sex can be truly in love--it is clear that they can--but I suspect that it is love deviating from what God created.
What is the difference between the love shared between two men and love that God himself created? Be as detailed as you can.

Please answer my questions, blue.

THIEF Oct 4, 2006 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra
I don't mind at all, be it heterosexual or not. I actually like watching couples make out - makes me happy to see they're in love, and enjoying life.

I actually feel the same way. Not to say I'm into voyeurism, but watching two people happy makes me feel good.

I don't neccessarily want to step inbetween the discussion going on with blue and the other members of GFF but I think it is important to take into account cultural context and upbringing. I was raised a Catholic by conservative Korean parents. It was over time that I developed acceptance towards homosexuality and other "liberal" views. While is easy to call my previous points of view ignorant and irrational, its hard to discount the way we were raised. I think its unfair that certain religions have a negative outlook towards homosexuality among other things, but at the same time others should understand the situation. Growing up, we are extremely impressionable especially to the sayings of high authorities such as churches and parents. Blue has admitted to being raised religiously just as I have. For the most part, I think the argument going on is pretty civil so I'm not criticizing anyone. I just wanted to bring up a consideration. Thats just my input for now.

Radez Oct 4, 2006 10:13 PM

But it's good for the voyeurs too. If the guy is hot, for instance, I get an giddy little thrill thinking about what ELSE he might be doing if he's going this far in public. Tripleplusgood if it's two guys making out. In Italy I saw two male teenagers holding each other while on a ferry to Capri. I stared basically the entire time. I'm sure the naked longing on my face was a bit off-putting, but in no way was it condemnatory.

GhaleonQ Mar 4, 2007 04:37 AM

To interject some life (and controversy?) into this topic, I'm most certainly philosophically, practically, and theologically against homosexuality. That stated, it doesn't affect my personal relationships any more than it does for any other person ("You regularly steal? Back, heathen!"). I was rather shocked, however, when I travelled from Wisconsin to New Hampshire (college) and discovered that people of differing opinions on politics, religion, society, and the like don't often want to associate. *sigh*

Dark Nation Mar 4, 2007 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice (Post 273412)
I don't want to see anyone making out/dry humping in public - heterosexual or homosexual. Light kissing, holding hands, etc. doesn't bother me at all, whether it's a man and a woman, two men, or two women.

Alice's first post steals the thread!

I tend to recognize that romance is gender-blind and so if two guys or two girls think the other is the shit, then well let them do their thing. I only ask that I be left out of it. Keep personal business to yourself and all that. Or in other words, don't make a spectacle about it, regardless of WHO it is.

Admittedly, I don't mind as much if I see two chicks making out, but it is a bit rude to do it just in the middle of the sidewalk or something you know? That's why they have Girls-Gone-Wild after all :tpg:

Quote:

What is the difference between the love shared between two men and love that God himself created? Be as detailed as you can.
While some would simply respond to that question with "Its not natural" and leave it at that, I'm going to play devil's advocate and try and come up with a fairly objective response, devoid of personal opinion regarding the morality of homosexuality: using various key points:

WARNING: PEOPLE WITH ADD, OR SHORT ATTENTIONS SPANS, DO NOT BOTHER.

Spoiler:
1:Humans as a species mate between the male and female, and this is the only natural (Test tubes & sperm banks and all of that are not methods given from birth, which is what I mean by natural, meaning abilities allowable at birth), anyone past the age of 10 probably knows this.

2:With Homosexuality, the possibility for a natural child birth is impossible, not the right equipment (Gender-Specific Organs) for such a thing.

3:In the cultures of the biblical era and beyond, creating offspring and the act of procreation for strictly that purpose was likely the normal cultural habit.

4:This notion is supported by several other cultural curiosities (From the perspective of the modern, western industrialized world, i.e., today, 2007) as seen in various ancient cultures, particularly, Homosexuality in Ancient Greece.
a.
Quote:

The ancient Greeks did not conceive of sexual orientation as a social identifier, as Western societies have done for the past century. In the ancient Greek context, the terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" are properly used only to describe activities, not identities. Greek society did not distinguish sexual desire or behavior by the gender of the participants, but by the extent to which such desire or behavior conformed to social norms. These norms were based on gender, age and social status.
b.
Quote:

The most common form of same-sex relationships between males in Greece was "paiderastia" meaning "boy love". It was a relationship between an older male and an adolescent youth. In Athens the older man was called erastes, he was to educate, protect, love, and provide a role model for his beloved. His beloved was called eromenos whose reward for his lover lay in his beauty, youth, and promise.
c.
Quote:

Elaborate social protocols existed to protect youths from the shame associated with being sexually penetrated. The eromenos was supposed to respect and honor the erastes, but not to desire him sexually. Although being courted by an older man was practically a rite of passage for young men, a youth who was seen to reciprocate the erotic desire of his erastes faced considerable social stigma
.
- So as explained above, it would seem that they did not view gender-preference as we did, but they held the act of being sexually awakened, or breaking virginity, as something of value and worth.
As for women?
d.
Quote:

Sappho, a poet from the island of Lesbos, wrote many love poems addressed to women and girls. The love in these poems is sometimes requited, and sometimes not. Sappho is thought to have written close to 12,000 lines of poetry on her love for other women. Of these, only about 600 lines have survived. As a result of her fame in antiquity, she and her land have become emblematic of love between women.

Pedagogic erotic relationships are also documented for Sparta, together with athletic nudity for women. Plato's Symposium mentions women who "do not care for men, but have female attachments." In general, however, the historical record of love and sexual relations between women is sparse.
A look at the typical household of Ancient Greece will give more insight into the views on Marriage and love:
e.
Quote:

A household consisted of a single set of parents and their children, but generally no relatives. Men were responsible for supporting the family by work or investments in land and commerce. Women were responsible for managing the household's supplies and overseeing slaves, who fetched water in jugs from public fountains, cooked, cleaned, and looked after babies. Men kept separate rooms for entertaining guests because male visitors were not permitted in rooms where women and children spent most of their time.
And in regards to marriage specifically:

f.
Quote:

Types of Marriage: There were two basic types of marriage that provided legitimate offspring. In one, the (male) legal guardian (kurios) who had charge of the woman arranged her marriage partner. This type of marriage is called enguesis 'betrothal'. If a woman was an heiress without a kurios, she was called an epiikleros, and might be (re-)married by the marriage form known as epidikasia.
It was unusual for a woman to own property, so the marriage of an epikleros was to the next closest available male in the family, who thereby gained control of the property. If the woman were not an heiress, the archon would find a close male relative to marry her and become her kurios. Women married in this way produced sons who were legal heirs to their fathers' property.
As you can see above, Marriage was much closely tied to producing children and political alliances (Although this was more prominent in Roman culture rather then greek). Very little is mentioned of Marriage for love.

- From the above analysis, it can be surmised that Marriage for Ancient Greeks (Who were also a prominent figure of Homosexual relations) was more of a business transaction then a rite of romantic love. Thus pure romantic attachments came from men-to-boy shared love. I could not find any records of Male-to-Male marriage, so I assume that practice did not exist or was illegal.

- Now then, for the second part: Homosexual love was not seen as a method of childbearing, so it was unnatural in a biological sense. In a cultural sense its clear to see that since a love between two men or two women would never produce offspring, that it was not of value and so it should be eliminated. In the ancient cultures of Greece, China, Roman Empire, etc., the lifespan of humanity was much lower then it was today, so there was a much greater emphasis on keeping the line of fore-bearers and the "House" of a Family alive, and this was done by child begating child begating child, ad infinitum.

- Now that we have established that, we can then perhaps imagine, that the original instructions of God were perhaps, indicative of the notion that Marriage and the act of sexual intercourse was best reserved for a man and a woman, as they would produce a child and the family would continue. It would likely be a hard 'sell' to allow for homosexual love when there was no obvious 'effect' that came of it (Sex between a man and a woman gave a child, thus it had an 'effect'), so God says "Marriage is to be between a man and a woman".
Take this original transcript, and attempt to convey the context and word-for-word meaning of what was said, combine that with the human element-- translating a word as something else because "Well, god OBVIOUSLY meant Travel and not Traverse" (An example of a word being changed), and add up many many years of small changes and language translations and add to that the bigotry of biblical text which does not seem 'correct' to a powerful group of men (Look no further the the Apocrypha Texts), and have that cycle continue for well over a few centuries, and you will end up with a translation of text which is far removed from the original source in literal meaning.

Of course, for those who would scream at me 'heretic' and 'blasphemer', keep in mind that even today, translators work on a 'meaning' and the 'intent' of what is said, and not the literal word-for-word message. This is why word-play jokes, puns, culture-specific references, etc., are often vastly different then the original source.

An example from the movie "Lost in Translation", which as you might tell by the title, deals with this very issue:
Quote:

A scene in the film illustrates being "Lost in Translation" quite literally. Bob, a director (played by Yutaka Tadokoro), and an interpreter (Akiko Takeshita) are on a set, filming a whiskey commercial. The audience witnesses several exchanges where the director speaks several sentences, with passion, followed by a pithy translation. At one point a slightly exasperated Bob asks "Is that everything? It seemed like he said quite a bit more than that." The scene is played without subtitles, so those viewers who don't speak Japanese feel as lost as Bob does. Motoko Rich of The New York Times translated the scene in a 2003 article.[2] One of the exchanges translated by Rich illustrates the scene in general:

Bob: Does he want me to, to turn from the right or turn from the left?
Interpreter (in formal Japanese, to the director): He has prepared and is ready. And he wants to know, when the camera rolls, would you prefer that he turn to the left, or would you prefer that he turn to the right? And that is the kind of thing he would like to know, if you don't mind.
Director (very brusquely, in colloquial Japanese): Either way is fine. That kind of thing doesn't matter. We don't have time, Bob-san, O.K.? You need to hurry. Raise the tension. Look at the camera. Slowly, with passion. It's passion that we want. Do you understand?
Interpreter (In English, to Bob): Right side. And, uh, with intensity.
As you can see, the original meaning and the English produced were very different. The same meaning was carried across "Intensity and to the Right", but Passion may mean a whole something else to a Japanese than to an American, and while Intensity is a valid word to be used in place of Passion, Passion itself carries connotations not seen with the word 'intensity'.

So, to finally answer your question lurker, the non-emotional base reason, I feel that a lot of people do not consider Homosexual love the same as the love provided by God is thus simplified:
- Homosexuals do not have the right equipment for making babies.
- Babies are the primary reason for Marriage up until perhaps 100 years ago (Marriage out of love)
- God intended (This is my theory and not to be held as hard fact) that Men focus on producing children, and the bit about the homosexuality was probably that "Hey, homosexuality is fine, but once you get married, drop it, ok?", meaning that the priority of producing children and the sacrament of the act of sex should be reserved for people who with you share a deep emotional attachment with. One night stands and such are likely what he was trying to say was bad, and that while you can certainly have a deep emotional connection with a person of the same gender, that Marriage to that person was a symbol that they would not only be the producer of your child, but also your life-time partner and lover. THAT is what the meaning of marriage was original intended for, I hypothesize.
- and to conclude (The near-complete answer to this, covering ALL possible aspects could be a doctoral thesis in and of itself, so I will stop short) this expose on your question, lurker, I think that by a combination of Tradition, Childbearing/Biology coming first, and the over-time corruption of Church Members and Officials to fear and eliminate that which did not fall in with the teachings, is why today Homosexuality is viewed as wrong, and not of the same kind of love as the kind indicated by the Bible.


--------------
Now, for the three of you who actually read all of this, I THANK YOU. Its not everyday that I pull a Crash Landon and make something of this length, and also: This also may be subjective in that my personal beliefs are somewhat in focus with my above theories: That love (and I mean LOVE, not lust, or desperation, or sexual cravings or jealousy or mental illness or narcotics) transcends gender and identity and is pure and without restraint. God taught that his love is infinite, and so I think it is a mistake of the transcriptions of his word that has risen to the strife created today.

I hope that is a sufficient enough answer :)

Sousuke Mar 4, 2007 07:53 AM

Wow, well said, Dark. After reading through that, I'm kind of left speechless. I don't really know what to say. I totally agree with it though. Props to you.

Except for: "Hurray for reviving old threads!" And while I know it wasn't you, it still happened. :P

Radez Mar 4, 2007 09:04 AM

Regarding natural ability to procreate as a criteria for the morality of the act, humanity has throughout history shown a great ingenuity in overcoming the restrictions placed upon it by nature. If it were possible some time in the future for two men or women to conceive, through some expensive and very involved medical procedure, for instance, does that change anything?

I ask because I don't think there's a clear line between what, with our technology, is merely working more efficiently with the natural functions that already exist, and what one would determine to be opposed. One could make the argument that advanced medical treatment of any kind is against nature. Lots of people would disagree, and then the question becomes at what level does technology change from working within the natural order to imposing our will upon it?

The objection from the gay perspective to traditional meaning of marriages and inheritance doesn't really have anything to do with love either. I think that objection stems more from an apparent contradiction between one of the founding principles of this country, that all men are created equal and everything that entails, and the idea that right now, only a specific class of couple of recognized as a single unit by the government and given all of the privileges that entails.

Granted, there's a undefined line there too between couples that are acceptable and couples that aren't. Undefined at least culturally. It is not yet a part of our cultural background, ie general things we all accept, that gay couples are ok. So really the discussion on the morality of the thing does need to come before the discussion on the rights that that entails, I agree with you there.

I realize the thread was really old, but DN's a smart guy. I want to hear him talk. ;_;

Zio Mar 4, 2007 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avalokiteshvara (Post 405950)
Regarding natural ability to procreate as a criteria for the morality of the act, humanity has throughout history shown a great ingenuity in overcoming the restrictions placed upon it by nature. If it were possible some time in the future for two men or women to conceive, through some expensive and very involved medical procedure, for instance, does that change anything?
[/size]

Wouldn't it just be easier well not only to adopt... But to say have two lesbians accept sperm donations(Aka sperm bank) from two guys they choose from? Or that they ask for a woman they know to carry a child of her egg and thier sperm possibly from a sperm bank? I mean they would still avoid things they aren't interested but aren't we pretty much in the brink of easy ways for same-sex to concieve or are you talking about more matters out of the womb development?

munchkin13 Mar 4, 2007 11:12 AM

I dont like over the top Public Displays of Affection whether it be hetro or homosexual couples. Holding hands, hugging and light kissing is acceptable to me. I'm not bothered what sexual orientation of the couple is if it makes them happy, why should anyone else be bothered.

Gechmir Mar 4, 2007 11:59 AM

As for my stance? Well, to be honest, it was kinda like the media's influence on the imagery of drugs. A bit of the ol' propaganda brainwash effect (not TV ads, I'm referring to local. Possibly my old man). Flat-out didn't like 'em.

Then a rather bizarre thing happened. Around when I was 16, I ran into a gal that I knew from back when I was 9 until I was 13 or so. Had grown into quite a pretty gal, and I got around to talking to her. Most of it was online, since she lived 100 miles away at this point (I ran into her again when she was revisiting the old school at a friend's request). Quickly found out that we were almost entirely alike. Background, politics, humor, interest in anime (but not to the extent of being a freak), etc. Then I figured I'd finally find out if she had a boyfriend. I made a roundabout jab of someone mistaking my voice on the phone for someone else's when I tried to call her, saying "they figured I was your boyfriend I think~"

Her response was "Ahahaha. I don't have a boyfriend." Immediately I did a bit of a victory dance but I felt my feet swept out from under me when she said she was only interested in girls. I covered up my disbelief rather swiftly, continued the conversation without missing a beat, but once I hung up? Ooof. Talk about a little maelstrom of emotions. We had our long stretches of not talking simply due to schedules and what-not, but finally we did so, and I thought to myself "meh... Fuck it" and just shut her sexuality out of my mind. Kept talking to her as a buddy. Then she actually came to me asking for advice in regards to a girlfriend of hers. Made me uncomfortable, but I gave her help. Bit by bit, I found myself more and more accepting, since I knew a homosexual personally and got used to talking to them. If she one day maaaagically turned straight, I'd date her in a heartbeat. But nothing shy of a fucked up emotional experience or blunt trauma to the head will cause that. 'Till then, she'll remain as she is: most definitely one of my best friends.

I didn't think they were sodomites who would burn in eternal hellfire in the past. Never. But I'd grumble angrily about them. Now, they just strike me as bizarre (or rather unusual, being a better of choice of words) when I come across them. I visited San Francisco last year and saw two guys holding hands that walked down the street past me. I watched them for a couple seconds then looked on as if nothing happened. In addition, about a year before that, samari (former poster here) and I met up since we both attended A&M. He was homosexual, but I didn't feel even slightly uncomfortable talking to him, since I was used to him Guess I underwent conversion, thanks to my friend =o

If you ever talk to someone of the religious right about homosexuals, it absolutely startles me as to how much hate they can have for a type of person without even knowing them.

Bottom line though? It strikes me as out of place. I don't feel the urge to slit their throats or anything weird like that. It's just something I'm not used to seeing. If anyone here was exposed to the same background, you'd possibly identify. Something to compare it to? I have a pet beagle who is missing a leg. It was shot and had to be amputated. He's still a good ol' sweet beagle, but folks who haven't seen him before are really estranged by his stump/missing leg. It's just a matter of getting used to really.

[/rant]

Homosexual PDAs?:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a320/GeopAg/PDA.jpg
Spoiler:
Hey, I accept them just fine. Can't stop me from making fun of them just like every other niche of society ='D

GhaleonQ Mar 4, 2007 12:14 PM

Dark Nation, if there wasn't a tremendous risk of turning this into a theology topic, I'd aruge that point for point. Since that isn't this topic's purpose, though, I'll just compliment you on having a strikingly cogent argument, despite my total disagreement with your outcome. Nice work.

Drex Mar 4, 2007 12:17 PM

Seems like a good place to put my stance.

I'm a slightly liberal moderate living a very conservative lifestyle in one of the most conservative religions out there. And I'm gay. Most people don't understand how that works, but it's a fact of life for me.

Reconciling conservative religion with homosexuality is a huge hurdle, and most people won't even attempt it unless it punches them in the face - either through their own struggles or through the struggles of someone they're close to. I grew up believing that homosexuality in all forms was wrong, unnatural, and an abomination in God's sight. Then I realized (early on, apparently) that I was definitely attracted to guys much more frequently than girls. That was never a choice presented to me - it's my natural inclination. When it then became obvious that no amount of intense prayer, fasting, or religious worship was going to change the way I felt, I knew I had to figure out where I was going to go with things.

The way I see it, temptations are not sins. Jesus was tempted by the Devil himself - did that make Him a sinner? So my being homosexual is not a sin. Acting on that temptation - if I believe that homosexuality is a sin, then it's the acting that makes the sin. And I don't think that homosexual activity really has any place in the plan God has set up for us. I believe that one of the main purposes of life on earth is to pursue healthy family relationships, and that the natural order of things, and the conditions under which a family flourishes best, is with a father and mother who love each other, fulfilling whichever roles they have decided upon together.

This doesn't mean I condemn people who believe otherwise - how you believe is your business, not mine. Of course I think I'm right, but anyone with any measure of self esteem ought to feel convinced of their own opinion if it's thought-out.

So how do I live my life? I actively pursue the aspect of myself that isn't homosexual, but I don't ignore that aspect of who I am. Homosexuality doesn't define me, but it is part of who I am and I won't deny that. And love, for me, transcends gender and is more than just attraction and sex. I hope when I fall in love that I'm attracted to the person I fall in love with, but if that doesn't come I'll have another challenge to face. And if someone falls in love with anyone, same gender or not, I really shouldn't base my opinion on that relationship purely on 'what' they are. Concern for safety or emotional well being is one thing, concern for one's private bits is entirely another.

Dark Nation Mar 4, 2007 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sousuke (Post 405922)
Except for: "Hurray for reviving old threads!" And while I know it wasn't you, it still happened. :P

You know, I had looked back on the thread right after I had hit "Submit", and then I saw the date of the last post, and the poster before that-- several months. However instead of wasting all of that effort, I just said fuck it and went about my business.

Responses to posters:

Souske: Thanks.

Mr. Compassion:
Spoiler:
I realized that after typing out my post, (And a particular comment you said helped affirm it) that the central problem with the division between Same Sex Love/Marriage & Traditional Marriage/Love is that while any person in the modern world (I do not of course, refer to dictatorial or societies with very strict social standards) can apply for Civil Unions, there is the Symbolism that goes along with Marriage. Its the meaning behind the meaning, the mechanical devices behind the smoke and mirrors as it were, that by pledging to give themselves only to their appointed partner, they are telling the world (And with their partner obviously! =p ) that they are willing to be with that other person through the oft-repeated vows in any situation.

That symbolism and the ceremonies that go along with it, are a unique artifact of the days of "Rule by Religion" and the historic place of the Church as a body of power and legislation, and it signifies as I stated above, a commitment.

Quote:

The objection from the gay perspective to traditional meaning of marriages and inheritance doesn't really have anything to do with love either. I think that objection stems more from an apparent contradiction between one of the founding principles of this country, that all men are created equal and everything that entails, and the idea that right now, only a specific class of couple of recognized as a single unit by the government and given all of the privileges that entails.
.
Took the words right out of my mouth: It would also seem that those gay and lesbian couples are, indirectly, being denied both the responsibilities and privileges gained by Marriage, but also the SYMBOLISM, the act of saying "I will be with you no matter what", and it is a token of that couple's affection and love (And yes I am perfectly aware of the divorce rate, I will get to that soon), and by not being allows to marry, they are also being denied the chance to show to the world their love and devotion to the other, which is, Ironically, more powerful and perhaps (With the divorce rate as it is) more meaningful that they would drive to gain that which has oft been tossed aside by heterosexual couples.

Funny enough, I think that if Marriage WAS allows for homosexuals, it would bring at least in some ways, a reknewed sense of holiness to the act of marriage. Their struggle for equality in the eyes of the Church (Vicariously being the eyes of God) is also a shout-out that they want to follows the Church's rules and doctrines, and the church is caught in a sort of catch-22: If they allows gays to Marry, then in the church's eyes the act of Marriage will not be worth as much, but if they don't allow gays to marry then they will be denying doctrines of their faith, and similarly telling otherwise perfectly law (by which I mean the laws of God) abiding believers that despite that they go to church every Sunday and particpate as much as anyone else does, that they can't marry or find true (And not hollow-surface only) acceptance from the Church. This seems to be, contradictory and in some ways, insulting.

But the sad fact of the matter (And I speak often here in opinions and theories, little of which is or can even be made fact, just educated guesses and supposes) that In reality Marriage not worth as much because of the rampant divorces and materialism that is a fact of life today (Prenuptial Agreements, anyone?).

To address your second question:
Quote:

One could make the argument that advanced medical treatment of any kind is against nature. Lots of people would disagree, and then the question becomes at what level does technology change from working within the natural order to imposing our will upon it?
That is a very interesting question you pose and I find myself without something to respond with. As far I can think of, there IS no fine line between what is acceptable and what is not, and this... erosion of Ethical and moral lines (Which I also feel define themselves through the creation of strict and easily seen 'boundaries') is not only a question of what is natural and what is unnatural, but also a deeper question of how do we define morality and Ethics when the situations they handle more often then not have NO line at all... just a fine gradient, like the filter in photoshop.


Gechmir: Funny enough I had a similar experience of my own like that. My opinons of Homosexality have flown from one extreme to another. At an early age (Of teenage years) I found an accidental exposure to the more stereotypical erotica of same-sex to be abhorent and disgusting, while on the other end I found myself seeing the viewpoints of those who were in long-term deeply committed relationships with those of the same gender, so in summary I had no defined stance on homosexuality, and to this day it remains fluid. I suppose that's a side-effect of my indecisiveness ¬_¬ Like you I had encountered a woman who I had an immediate and calm introduction to, and I felt none of the usual jitteryness or nervousness as with meeting new potential single women, and moments after I came to the conclusion that she either was taken or was a lesbian (The former happens on a scarily high level for me), it turned out that, yep, she was a lesbian... not bisexual, not bi-curious, not pseudo-lesbian, but full-blow dyke. However she was still an awesome girl and I still occasionally see her (She took a different major then I did, so our time of meeting was short) in the computer lab.

GhaleonQ: Well perhaps in the future we can debate and have an intellectual d-d-d-dual! :tpg:

Drex: I had heard that you were Bi, but I wasn't aware of being full blown gay. Well I must admit if more people like you had the open mind to accept that which was traditionally shunned by your peers, perhaps this whole gay/lesbian issue would work itself out much faster.

kinkymagic Mar 4, 2007 04:27 PM

'The healthiest way to deal with homosexuality is to ignore it until it comes up in a game of truth/dare.'

chibilola Mar 4, 2007 07:01 PM

I don't mind gay people holding hands and walking. For all I care I could be holding hands with my best friend and people could be thinking I'm a lesbian.

I only really frown when theres a couple making out/holding butts and what not. It's disgusting for little kids to see, and they raise questions that shouldn't be asking for another 10 years. I mean light kisses and hugs are nice, but if my boyfriend tries to do anything beyond that I smack him in.

I mean you gotta have control, if you want to things more adultsy do it privately, rather then doing something inappropriate in public whichever gay or straight.

Drex Mar 4, 2007 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Nation (Post 406088)
Drex: I had heard that you were Bi, but I wasn't aware of being full blown gay. Well I must admit if more people like you had the open mind to accept that which was traditionally shunned by your peers, perhaps this whole gay/lesbian issue would work itself out much faster.

For a long time I considered myself bi because I was much more emotionally attracted to females. Over time, I've come to understand much more about myself and have determined that while a small part of me is heterosexual (I believe that very few people are 100% either way anyway), it is a small enough fraction as to render 'bisexual' and inaccurate label. Be that as it may, I'm pursuing a heterosexual relationship right now, so I guess that shoots the 'gay' label out of the water as well. :P

Shorty Mar 4, 2007 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice (Post 273412)
I don't want to see anyone making out/dry humping in public - heterosexual or homosexual. Light kissing, holding hands, etc. doesn't bother me at all, whether it's a man and a woman, two men, or two women.

Like Sass and many others, couldn't have said it better myself. Quite a few of my best / better friends are gay and are open about their sexuality but as long as they've kept their behaviour to what normal standard of PDA is for heterosexual couples, never really bothered me. Besides, my gay friends are picky--so seeing two cute guys holding hands and being a cute couple isn't all that horrible to witness. When they start kissing and groping, that's when I have to intervene and say "Excuse me, please get a room."

Bubblehead1123 Mar 4, 2007 11:29 PM

Delete.

wvlfpvp Mar 4, 2007 11:36 PM

Why is it in quotes? I'm intrigued.

Bubblehead1123 Mar 4, 2007 11:40 PM

Delete.

GhaleonQ Mar 4, 2007 11:41 PM

*bows down to Drex* I can't fathom the difficulty of that, and "respect" only begins to describe my feeling.

As for DN, well, AUGUSTINE, GO! *heaves out Master Ball* And, yes, I was warned for reviving the intriguing topic.

wvlfpvp Mar 4, 2007 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1123 (Post 406454)
because i dont like the word gay... if you want to get technical gay is like to be happy and cheerful...ect... it doesn't mean homosexual... i prefer to call them homo's but for some reason that offends them.

The ones you know get offended at "homo?" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA

:tpg::tpg: God, I'd hate to see how they react to the word "faggot."

*goes into orbit* HAHAHA.


Also, Drex.
Spoiler:
You're a million times better than this gay guy that I knew in High School (didn't know he was gay until about a year after) who's married to a woman who's helping him "more than she knows"

Radez Mar 4, 2007 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1123 (Post 406454)
because i dont like the word gay... if you want to get technical gay is like to be happy and cheerful...ect... it doesn't mean homosexual... i prefer to call them homo's but for some reason that offends them.


There's this word called vernacular. I think it might be useful. There's another one called colloquial. That one might help too. Basically, people communicate with words that mean things. Sometimes these words used to mean other things. By choosing to be silly and pedantic about the evolution of words, and more to the point, some words and not others, you come off sounding like an arrogant prick what thinks 'e's better 'n the common man, so to speak.

Aside from which, if you really wanted to be stupid, "homo" technically means man, so you know, you're not really saying much unless you're talking to lesbians.

YO PITTSBURGH MIKE HERE Mar 5, 2007 12:12 AM

Only a homo would say that, Radez.

Drex Mar 5, 2007 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GhaleonQ (Post 406456)
*bows down to Drex* I can't fathom the difficulty of that, and "respect" only begins to describe my feeling.

Heh, we'll see how it all pans out in a few months before we start throwing respect around. I feel like I've got a good perspective and one of the only decent ways that I've heard of for reconciling conservative religion with homosexuality, but that doesn't mean it'll work out in the end. :P
Quote:

Originally Posted by wvlfpvp (Post 406460)
Also, Drex.
Spoiler:
You're a million times better than this gay guy that I knew in High School (didn't know he was gay until about a year after) who's married to a woman who's helping him "more than she knows"

Sounds like someone that's either a jerk, an idiot, or a putz. I'm not sure which, though. I won't even date a girl seriously unless she knows that I'm gay, because I have a lot of respect for women in general (and especially the type that I would consider dating) and wouldn't want to offend, slight, or hurt someone by withholding pertinent information until later on. :shrug:

Additional Spam:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1123 (Post 406442)
I don't think you people would want to know what i think of "gay" people.

PS this kind of post doesn't really help conversation, unless you're simply striving for attention.

The_Melomane Mar 5, 2007 11:28 AM

Absolutely nothing wrong with being gay/homosexual/lesbian/queer/whateveryoufeeltheneedtocallit. One of my best friends from elementary school is gay, along with a lot of my other friends. (Being in my school's drama club sort of makes homosexuality a common occurrence. :p ) I don't mind seeing homosexuals holding hands in such in public, I think it's great that they're able to show their affection the same way heterosexuals are. However, like most everyone else, if it gets to dry humping and pretty much sex with clothes on, I'm pretty much against that no matter who you are.

xen0phobia Mar 5, 2007 11:31 AM

I have a friend who is gay but hes really cool about it. He doesn't mind if people say "gay" or any other words. He just makes jokes about it himself and then know one feels awkward talking about it anymore. I wish more gays acted this way.

The Wulf Mar 5, 2007 01:07 PM

Even as a bi, it does bother me when things seem to be "getting heavy" in public. I normally don't put much thought to it, and I won't say anything, but it does bother me.

I just don't want to see it (or hear it, for that matter).

limegreenwalls Mar 5, 2007 01:35 PM

As said above, i think that people have an issue with anybody showing excessive displays of affection in general, whether it be a man + woman, woman + woman, or man + man.

Frank91 Mar 11, 2007 05:13 PM

I couldn't give a toss for gay people, but I have to admit that I hate the feminine/female-wannabe and butch lesbian ones. But if I had a friend that came out, I would still be his friend and don't give a shit about his sexuality. My motto: You're my friend no matter your race, religion, S.O., etc as long as you respect me and treat me accordingly.

Hi, My Name Is Hito Feb 17, 2008 02:39 PM

I've seen quite a few lesbian couples around Denver, more so than gay couples, which is unfortunate for me. However, I've never stopped myself from showing affection in public. I see no reason to. I didn't stop myself even when I lived in a town of 5,000 in Wyoming, so I'm certainly not going to in a town of 2 million.

Granted, I'm not out there groping my boyfriend or anything like that. Whatever affection I do show is usually a quick kiss or hand-holding. I try to smile at couples showing affection, though. It's nice to know that some people aren't afraid to show who they are regardless of their situation.

Yamigarasu Feb 17, 2008 02:52 PM

I don't care holding hands or innocent kissing, anything beyond that, it's another story, the famous "get a room" comes in mind.

Gay or straight people should follow the same outdoors etiquette, as long as is discrete, it's okay.

Paco Feb 17, 2008 02:53 PM

Dude... You know better than to bring back threads that have been dead for almost a year. FUCKING NECROPHILIACS.


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