Convert to Islam, or die.
 

I'm not really sure if this is better suited to the political palace or here. Mods if you think it needs to be moved feel free and sorry for any inconvenience.

At any rate, if you've been watching the news then you probably heard about the two journalists that got kidnapped somewhere over in Iraq by a group of extremists. You also may have heard of several Al-Quieda members who released a tape with an American-Saudi man who also urged americans to basically "convert or die." Anyways, thier account stated that the kidnappers held guns to the backs of thier heads, ordered them to renounce God (and what I would assume is ties to thier country as well) and basically convert to Islam on the spot or die right there.

To me, an act like that almost seems ghoulishly similar to the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades by comparison but it also brings up a good question:

If you were in the same high pressure life threatening situation and someone demanded that you convert to Islam (or any other religion for that matter) or die by a bullet to the back of your head and you had no way out, would you renounce God or whatever your beliefs may be just to escape alive? Or would you stand by your convictions and what you believe in - ultimately taking the bullet and/or hoping/praying that you get out of the situation unscathed? The journalists renounced what they believed in to make it out alive, do you think they made the right decision or the wrong one? How do you see it?

No way on Earthl would I convert. I'm an athiest, or possibly agnostic, I'm not sure. I plan to stay that way unless I make the choice, and that is a bullet that I would be proud to take, knowing that I died without kowtowing.

What? If you don't believe there's anything after death anyway, why on earth wouldn't you ''convert'' to Islam to prolong your damn life? Is that some internet ninja code of honour, or what?

As an athiest, one who doesn't really give a fuck about any of that religious horsepoo or buys into that afterlife stuff, wouldn't you, you know, PLAY ALONG or something so they didn't shoot you in the face?

Edit: Oh Hi Aard. Ahaha. Great minds and all that, right?

Not really. My beliefs are as important to me as any those of any average religious person are to me. I'm a proud man, and I won't take orders from anyone I didn't agree to serve.

Personally I believe in God, but not the God that the media and televangelists created. It's really hard to say what you would do in that situation unless you've already experienced it. It's easy to say you would take a bullet now but when it comes right down to it I think most would convert. I can't even tell you what I would do. Ideally I would take a bullet for my beliefs, but who knows what would really happen?

I'm an atheist so I would just play along. If there's no God then it's not like I'm sinning against someone or not. I can't really "die for atheism" and then be proud about it, what.

I'd convert in a second, although I'm already technically Muslim. Irrelevant though, if someone stuck a gun to my head, or hell, even threatened me with much, I'd switch to get out of a situation. My beliefs aren't worth my skin for me.

You act like taking orders from women is the most natural thing in the world. (laugh track)

But seriously, why is that?

I'd renounce, sneak up at night, steal the guns of the kidnappers and shoot them.

Then I'd simply go back to church on a regular Sunday and hope that nobody puts a gun to my head.

I do have a girlfriend, as it happens. I'm thirty years old, it's to be expected by now. If I choose to do what she would like me to do, doesn't that fall under "agree to serve" in your opinion. I prefer to think that I do what my girfriend would like me to do out of love than out of obligation though. I'd also presume she does the things she does for the same reason. If it felt like taking orders, I'd get out of there. I'm responding to what I hope was a joke post in a serious manner because I don't know how else to respond. Of course, I'm taking it as a joke, because I don't think anything was really meant by it.

I don't expect many people to agree that it's worth my life to preserve my freedom, and I really hope that I never need to make that choice, but it is how I would feel compelled to act. I just don't take orders under threat of force. My life isn't worth more to me than my values. I'm not sure what impression that post gave everyone, though. I "agree to serve" various people in life, and I do so with a cheerful attitude and a good grace. The point being that it's my choice. I could choose to do otherwise, in most cases.

Do you have any logical reasoning for your belief? I mean, okay, freedom... Even if you are forced to do something (anything), you still have way more freedom than if you are just plain dead (as death is a state in which your options are limited to zero by default, more or less).

I suppose that the answer to your question would depend on how logical you find the notion that if I did falsely convert, to satisfy my captors, I would always have to live with that knowledge, knowing what it means in my value system. The concept of remaining true to yourself is a keystone of my life. I like to maintain a sense of healthy self-esteem, and the knowledge that I faked a conversion to Islam, even in order to save my life would be something that would make me deeply uncomfortable. It would eat away at me.

Seeing as I am a fan of living and the capability to make decisions, I would opt for appeasing these religious extremists. I mean, they're giving me a very simple decision. Life or death? I'll take life.

If you don't have anything to believe in, you're maintaining the only thing you have. We're all dishonest at times, so why the hell not be dishonest in a situation where your life is on the line? Tell a lie, GTFO, and then resume your normal life! For me, a lie doesn't really dig away at me, unless I know that it will have a largely negative impact on others. In this case, the truth will more than likely never be found out by these jerks, so it couldn't hurt them. In addition, since I don't give a shit about said party, they deserve the additional spite that would occur on the (unlikely) discovery of truth.

The journalists definitely made the right decision, and even if they had certain religious backgrounds, I don't think a choice like that would be hard. They didn't want to be martyred. Unless somehow their announcement of their faith through death was broadcasted and notable to the public, people would just see it as another "ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS KILLED MORE JOURNALISTS TODAY". Then this discussion wouldn't exist. This is an uninformed statement that has no sources, but there's a possibility that other kidnapped journalists could have went down a similar path, and accepted their brutal death, but their decision to do so would be unknown to the general public.

Anyway, the questions posed have an easy answer that I would say a majority of people would follow.

I could tell them any damn thing that they want to hear.

"Do you believe that Emeril LaGasse is the true lord and savior"
"Yeah sure"

It's one thing to "convert", it's another to actually believe. And no one knows what that is but you.

I'd "convert". So what if a guy asks me to believe whatever fairy tales he believes are true? All organized religions are shams in my book anyway. If whatever god that might actually exists finds that this is enough to send me to hell, then he already has plenty to choose from if he wants a justification in order to do that.

If I remember correctly, the choices aren't that strict when coming under Islamic rule.

There is a third option, dhimmitude.

This state of being gives allowance to those who refuse to convert, but with a price, their freedoms. Those under dhimmitude can live amongst Muslim society, but are treated and considered second-class citizens. Laws for dhimmis are much harsher than laws for muslims, miscegnation is out of the question, and sometimes, in the worst case, you must wear identification on your person to show to the world that you aren't a muslim.

Sounds attractive, no?

Uhmm, why am I reminded of... No, wait, saying that would instantly transform this thread into a burning trainwreck, what with Godwin's law and all that.

The scenario doesn't dictate for me to actually mean it. If people threatened me to change my beliefs on the spot or to die, then I'd simply lie about it. Think about it. Are they dimwitted to believe that I'll suddenly accept a new religion on spot? Using Islam as an example, the passage of becoming a Muslim wouldn't be pure, because I was forced into it. As a result, I wouldn't mean it in the first place.

So would I save my life to put on a show by pretending? Absolutely. It's not like I'll live out my days as a Muslim. That would only happen if I choose to. If I was forced, I'd deliver an Oscar worthy performance, and then when I'm free - I'll discard it. In doing so, I wouldn't be scorning my beliefs at all.

Nobody can truly take my beliefs away. Whether with a gun or some other weapon, it won't happen. Only I can make that decision. To save my life, I'll put on a show, but when it comes down to it, my beliefs will remain.

To me, life is a gift. If I just received the chance to continue living and believing in my Faith, but I had to pretend as if I were discarding it, then so be it.

Getting shot in the back of the head isn't a bad way to go. Barring considerations of my friends and family ("Should I do anything to prolong my life for their sake?" and thoughts of that nature), I think I'd take my chances on them pulling the trigger. I suspect that some kind of self-preservation instinct would kick in and triumph over whatever life philosophy I had subscribed to up to that point, but I'd like to think that I'd refuse.

Besides, in a situation like that, where I'd feel pretty much fucked regardless (imprisoned in some location, as opposed to a man just sneaking up behind me on the street with a gun), I don't think I'd be just "getting away" by complying anyway. As I recall, there are some videos of fine folks who got their heads hacked off even after they said whatever their kidnappers wanted--though I don't think any of them were asked to convert.

Now, if they start laying out heated, pointy objects or electrical wires, then I'll probably say whatever they want.

Words really hold no meaning if the speaker doesn't truly wish to say them. If you don't convert you're going against one of the basic instincts of life, survival. Unless you're a religious or prideful zealot, there is no basis or logic in it. To me, even if I were religious (which I'm not), martrydom is unappealing because honestly, you can repent the rest of your life if you really feel like it. Any righteous god would forgive you, right? I mean...God's a cool dude, he understands.

You know what...considering i'm christian and all...(not really but who is?)...i've always been wanting toask..isn't it the same freaking god? Jews, muslims, and chriistians all believe in the same one...so converting isjust basically like replacing broadband for dsl, you'll still get to the internet right? I don't know but to answer the question, I'd lie my ass off...I think god would need living breathing human beings to sacrifice virgins to and not martyrs. Live to pray another day i guess.

Technically, they all worship the same God. That's about the only part they agree on. The rest is where the Crusade/Jahad browbeating comes from.

I say switch, switch back after they leave, and call it a day. Keeping your heart beating is the most important thing.

I dont know many people who would rather die than convert religion. Its so stupid that a person would force their beliefs on another person like that but I wonder how they'd expect you to be genuinely converted by the barrel of a gun, you'll obviously do anything you can to avoid death.

How about I just admit that you make some good points, but I maintain that you don't understand how great of a resistance I have to being forced into anything? Does that work?

1) When you "convert" to Islam, you do not renounce God. I just want to point this out to begin with.

2) Under no circumstances should a non-muslim be forced to take islam as his religion because it's against everything islam stands for.

3) These Extremists have nothing to do with Islam. This is something that all Muslims agree on: They are doing everything that Islam DOESN'T stand for, in the name of Islam. It's like saying I hate racism and then spit on someone who's different while going to a non-racist conference!

4) So the conclusion is: The thing the kidnappers did was SO WRONG! Islam should never be forced upon someone because it's against what Islam stands for. End of story.

I'd say that if it really came down to it, I wouldn't convert. Sure, I'd probably be dead, but like han89 said, they're essentially preaching a perverted form of Islam, which I have no respect for (I do respect Muslims in general though, just not the ones who preach, breathe, sleep, and eat hatred for anyone who isn't following the same exact guidelines they are).

Also, suppose you convert, but they don't let you go back to your home? What if they made you stick around in a Muslim community, to see if you're really serious about "converting"? It wasn't brought up very much in this topic, but suppose that happened? Would you still convert?

Even though I don't always act it, I consider myself a Christian, and during a "test" like that, I won't deny Jesus (because I really believe what Jesus said about denying Him before men, and in turn He would deny you before God and the angels).

The way I looked at this thread, it'd be like a KKK member forcing you to convert to Christianity (yes, I know, white supremacists are much more complex, but then again, so are Islamic terrorists, so I'm keeping it simple). I just couldn't in good conscience do that, nor would I force my beliefs upon someone else under threat of death.

I think the problem with organized religion in general is that although they preach that you should live in this way, not everyone who's in that faith practices it. And unfortunately only the bad stuff usually gets remembered, so people bash them for that stuff.

Assuming I didn't answer the way I did above, threatening to kill me wouldn't really make me convert anyway. If anything, I'd be more resistant to it (particularly if I've heard nothing but bad stuff). On the other hand, if they showed me the good aspects of Islam, and letting me live among them to see how Islam would benefit me and others, then I'd probably be more likely to consider it.

I think that's one of the problems nowadays, people try to force their beliefs onto others, but then either don't practice what they preach, or just tell me I'm going to hell because I don't believe in so-and-so. Heck, most of my life I was anti-religion as well, and was wondering why anyone even bothered believing in that stuff. Then I read the Bible for myself, and began to see the stuff that goes on in there, and although there are some discrepancies, just the stuff I read was enough to convince me that being a Christian would be worth it for me. Strangely enough, a lot of this stuff that interested me, no Christians ever bothered to tell me about it (such as how people will often do good deeds simply to be seen and praised for it. But Jesus explained that if you do it in relative secret, God would see it and reward you for it).

Sorry for the long post, figured I'll post something hopefully worth reading :D

Valueing your own religion more than your own life is directly in line with the ideal terrorist.

That said, I'm astonished at the mass stupidity in this thread. As if "converting" actually means anything if forced at gunpoint. No need for false pride.

Suppose you do convert and they let you go home. Will you stay on the religion you were converted to? 99.99% of the time it will be NO. So the chances are once you convert to their Islam, you will not be released and be forced to stay with them under their Islam. And stick around in their Muslim community will mean becoming a terrorist, so until you are ready to become a terrorist, then the answer is: NO I won't convert!


The Islam that these terrorists claim to be following has a hatred to Christians and Jews. While the real Islam clearly says that Jesus IS a prophet of christianity and he is as much of a prophet to us (I am a Muslim just so you know who lives in a mixed community between christians and muslims) as Mohammed (the last of the prophets) is. true Islam never denies Jesus and sees him the same way Christians see him.

Like the KKK was refused by MANY to just white people, these groups are considered as much bad as the KKK to the Muslims. Like Racism is refused, so is these groups preachings!

Totally agree. To see what Islam is truly about, I would suggest a movie called "Al Rissala" (The Message) which is an arabic old movie that was translated to English or French (not sure which one though) and that talks about the life of the Prophet Mohammed (like The Passion Of The Christ). It is the perfect exemple to see what the TRUE original Islam was all about.

Which is the way the prophet said Islam should be preached. By showing the good aspect of it. Not by pointing a gun to the head of someone and telling him: CONVERT OR DIE!!!

My beliefs are in my heart. Words are just words. If it means getting out of there alive, of course I'd say anything they wanted.

Ah come off it, people were simply answering the question put to them at the start of the thread:

There's no need to question intelligence based on opinion. If you were told to convert at gunpoint it wouldn't affect you, but renouncing their faith in any way, shape of form could put incredible guilt on others, y'know?

Ok i must say i'm very satisfied with the way the discussion went after this intro, which i thought would lead to some sort of shit-flinging contest. Everyone here except Soluzar seems to have a healthy mindset about it.

Let me clear two things up though, as a past muslim (Athiest now) :

1- Islam never stated you can do that, and there is a verse that specifically orders not to ask a person to convert or else, and i mean or else ANYTHING, not just death : It's porhibited to force them by offering any unpleasant alternative, even if that alternative's clipping his toe-nails, if that discomforts the person in question . : So this fanatic is acting out of his ass, against Islam's teaching.

2- Islam states that the prophet Muhammed was asked about being in such a situation (if you're a muslim) and being asked to announce your disbelief in islam in exchange for your life, and he said that if you fear any harm you can say that you don't to save your life, as long as you still believe in it in your heart. Clearly stated "hadeeth" (reports about the prophet's sayings).

Just had to state that to be fair. I'm against the idea of religion in general, but also against misleading actions.

Also, Soluzar is a liar.

One more thing : Although you CAN lie and "convert" to save your life , if it's a situation that can lead to many people following suit (because they thought you took it in by heart) or any other case that would shake the foundations of belief/representation of islam in other people's minds you would be responsible to stand by your beliefs. If something little such as one's life is at stake then it's ok to lie (according to the prophet) but anything causing mass confusion or damage should be handled in another way. You get my point.

I would probably just convert to their religion until I could get the fuck out of there and then not think anything more of it. Then I would then go home and get back to my normal life and not practice that stupid religion at all. Just because I converted and they think I have their religious label stamped on my forehead doesn't mean jackshit to me if deep down inside I think it's a bunch of bullshit.

As for the journalists, they did the right thing. If they had clung to their beliefs and laughed in the face of death, I'd doubt their captors would have a change of heart and let them go on account of their bravery and how they stuck to their own convictions. Their captors are one-minded extremist motherfuckers who want to convert everyone to their one true religion. I'm sick of people trying to force their religious beliefs on other people. Don't they have anything better to do?

This has nothing to do with the question...

I'm sure you wouldn't like someone saying that about your religion would you?

My views on it, well what they said was kinda out of place. I just think people need to relax and love one another.

Thats pretty much it. They dont seem to understand that, which is ok, because they will have to learn one day.

I'm really into my faith (Catholic [remember the religious debates at the old Gamingforce?]), so I'd gladly die so I wouldn't deny Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I don't have as much respect for extremists in anything, to be honest (I'm a moderate-lean-liberal in my faith), and I know that Moslemsin general are good people, so these people really don't scare me at all.

Whilst I'm not a steadfast practionier of the christian faith, I wouln't give them the satisfaction of the deed, I'm a believer of Jesus dieing for our sins and I'm not going to throw that back at his face for my own life.

Quite frankly, I'd attempt to take out as many of them before they do so to me if such an occasion arised and they instigated it.
And, no, that's not me signing up at the war office.

He doesn't seem to have a religion. (Maybe you meant "beliefs"?)

Most religions use faith to justify them and faith is (essentially) believing something without having reasonable evidence. I think that's pretty fucking stupid, but if you don't, be my guest.

I'd convert for as long as needed. The beauty of atheism is there's no sins. lol

Are you talking about the two Fox journalists - Steve Centanni and Olaf Wiig? This was in GAZA CITY NOT IRAQ!!:lolsign:

I'm not even religious, so if some crazy Islamic extremists want me to say "blah blah blah Allah, blah blah blah Muhammad blah blah blah" to save my life then sure, its not like it really means anything to me. I sure as hell ain't gonna throw away my life just because I refuse to say something that holds no meanin for me.

Moslemsim? :eyebrow:
They're MUSLIMS. And they'll act as good people until they're enough to continue the Jihad.
With the current situation, anything below paranoia is too insecure. And you're in the US, which (because of its location) is more secure than our weakling, politically-correctness driven Europe.

I'd probably choose death, mainly because living in a world full of believers in any fundamentalist religion would suck.

I tend to revel in that which most people consider bad habits, such as smoking, drinking, premarital sex. Some religious denominations are even picky about music and books, and since I like listening to Rock and reading the likes of Allen Ginsberg, I'd pretty much have nothing left to do with myself.

I don't know man. You're making a generalization that isn't logical. Why would you think any random muslim living out their lives in the world would personally care about waging a holy war on everyone else? What on earth would bring me to go out and buy the gun that my broke college student ass can't afford, go around waving it and trying to convert people to Islam? I'm certainly not encouraged to do so by the Qu'ran, and in fact I'm even told not to. So like the law of human psychology goes, if you see anyone doing something, it's because the benefits of doing so are greater than its costs or at least equal and this applies to muslims too. So all those people out there waging Jihads and whatnot, they think that there's some problem (Israeli occupation issues, American political interference, whatever) that is inconvenient enough to make them stop living their daily lives, pick up guns, risk and in some cases even freely give up their lives to try and make a difference happen. And to also misquote/represent the Qu'ran so they can pick up moral support and numbers on the way. Not the best or the most effective way, but that's all they know how to.

Anyway, back on topic, hell yeah would I 'convert' to whatever you want me to save my life. I'll put my Intro to Acting class skills on full throtle and reduce you to tears with my religious fervour, in fact, the CNN news footage of it might even be up for an Oscar Award. But dude, to actually convert? That's like asking me to renounce gravity. I couldn't do it even if I tried. I have a certain way that I feel the world and morality works that is synonymous with my religious views, and unless you can convince me otherwise, it'll still hold like the way we believe in atoms or the way in the ancients believed in the four elements.

First of all...I don't think that the extremists are doing Jihad.In Islam,Jihad has broader application,not only about war.Jihad is something you do for change,a good change. Even to be back to your own 'good' self is consider as Jihad. Even studying itself is consider as Jihad because by studying,you change yourself to be more knowledgeable.

About 'convert or die' issue....there is no forced in religion. Religion is deeply connected to faith. Even if you convert but your heart is not....that is not a 'true' convert. One who convert must do anything that has prescribed to him/her by God. But if he is to do 'ibadah(worship) halfheartedly, nothing good he will get from God; no bounties He'll give to him.

This Hadeeth is true. You can lie just to save/preserve your life. Life is considered as a trust from God.To preserve it is to preserve your faith even though to die in His way is more honorable. It's just a matter of time whether you'll got to Heaven fast or slow.

I'm a Muslim. If you ask me whether I agree to what those filthy extremists have done.......I just feel like killing them for they create islamophobia.

The journalists convictions were not strong enough to be stood by and so they made their choice.

I, personally would never change mine for any reason.

Haz.

Eh, they think we want to hear their lies, so let's asssume they play by the golden rule, thus meaning we can assume they want to hear lies as well, and pretend to convert. Play their game that they're so insistent on everyone playing, use their rules against them.

The enstict of self survival would make someone reject religious beliefs,what good would make to someone say "no i love god" and then be dead by enemy,or to say "i love allah" and then be dead by christian soldiers on the battlefield?All that matters is survival.After that when you are ok,you can kill those who captured you or those that forced you change your beliefs.If you are a dead man you can change nothing.Right?

Best regards

My faith isn't strong, I'm not a religious person with strong unyeilding beliefs. I'm what I like to call, 'Christian-Agnostic' but I'm on the verge of being an all out athiest. If I were in a life or death situtation like that I'd convert in a heartbeat, and I believe those reporters did the right thing. For one, they saved their own lives, two it set an example of what anyone should do. Just because you convert doesn't mean you have to actually worship and believe. After I convert, at the soonest opportunity, I'd get the hell out of there.

There are only three things I'm willing to die for, and my religion isn't one of them.

I'm theist, but my beliefs specifically tell me to not convert, so I'd have to say no, painful and sad as it might be. Besides, becoming a martyr would be kinda cool... Although the preferable death would be standing waist-deep in the bodies of your enemies while swinging a ridiculously good-looking sword around. Boromir comes to mind. That is cool.

But If one thinks about it, depending on what religion a theist is a part of, he/she has more reason to not convert than an athiest. A theist would be afraid of God for the decisions he/she would make, but what reason does an atheist have not to convert to save his/her life, the one they'd never get to relive? Not any good, logical reason, I'd have to say. And indeed, unless there is a better deal waiting on the "other side", it would be irrational to not save your skin by converting.

I feel that if someone converts for the wrong reasons (IE. family lineage, fads, to show independence...etc) then I don't they really mean it. If it's a question of life or death though, then those are different circumstances. I would like to say that I would never convert even if there was a gun to my head (or the threat of torture), but it's always easy to talk big when you're sitting at home.....