Women and porn
 

This is somewhat of a two-fold entry as it deals with the same person but two different issues.

The background:

I was flipping channels the other night and came across the E! channel and it was showing a True Hollywood story on Jenna Jameson. For those of you who are not in the know, she is a famous porn star who is now popular in main stream (not so much mainstream movies, but just in celebritydom). It was in the last half hour and I watched the rest of the show. Don't laugh, I don't usually watch that channel...really! But I do like Jenna Jameson as I think she is very down to earth, pretty, yada, yada, yada.

Near the end of the show, somehow the topic came up about her going to heaven and she answered if she thought she would as did some of her friends. The one person that answered the question, and infuriated me to no end, was the Pastor/Preacher/Priest (I'm not sure which he was) who said she was definitely going to hell because of her lifestyle/career.

Judge not, lest ye be judged ~ Can any Christian on here tell me how this man could have sat there with his arrogant attitude and said such a thing?

This is when I get mad at the hypocrisy of Christianity. A Christian is supposed to be a witness in their words, lifestyles and actions, and if someone who was struggling with the acceptance of Christ in their life saw this, they could say, "Hey! If that man who is a leader and a follower of God can judge people, so can I! To hell with what the Bible says I should do!"


The second part is ~ Jenna admitted she likes was she does as a porn star and was never coerced into it. Yet, so many women think that women who are strippers, porn stars, etc. are exploited. Yes, they can be by the unwilling, but there are many who like doing what they do. Why can't these women accept that some women like being hookers, porn stars and so on? Is it beyond their comprehension that a woman can think for herself?

Just some thoughts I had and wanted to know what you all thought.

Well, to answer your first question, Jesus hung with the undesirables and was often criticized for it. The bible plainly states that no one is barred from Heaven who accepts Jesus as their savior. Period. If Heaven was reserved for people who had never sinned, it would be a very empty place.

About the second question, I'm not a big believer in coercion. It irritates me to no end when people use that as an explanation as to why they did something they knew was wrong. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. I don't care if these women are 17 or 37...they know what they're doing. Exploitation, my ass.

I think it would have been important to know who exactly was that person and what branch of Christianity he represented, but heh.

Anyway, that kind of bullshit is what made so many people turn their back on religion, and Christianism isnt about that. One of the most important figure of Christianity remains the repented prostitute Mary Magdalene.

Hi niki :) It's nice to see you.

This gentleman, and I use that term loosely, may have been on the show in the first 30 minutes and they might have said his name and what denomination he is from. But alas, they did not show it in the segment I watched. I can say he did not have on a priest's robe and such, so he may not have been a priest.

And you are so right about the prostitute. According to the Bible, and I do ask for correction if I am wrong, it's the sins God doesn't like, not the sinner. But regardless, as I said, a person struggling with his/her faith can definitely be confused when seeing these types of actions from a religious leader.

Well ladies and gentelmen...there is coercion, whether you like it or not, Italy is one of those countries with high level of thirst for the younger girls from Eastern Europe...a high percentage of husbands drive out late hours in search of...some pleasure...moreover there IS a high level of exchange bla bla and group sex...now getting back to the coercion, well a great majority of these younger girls are forced, raped and beaten into prostitution...this is the sad reality and there is no place for finger pointers, am sure very few of the lot can stand and throw the stone...bible docet. cheers

Oops, I did forget to address Alice's comment. Yes, I too believe that not everyone goes into the sex business willingly.

I'm sure there are cases of coercion, but I believe it's rare. If you're defining "coercion" as women/girls feeling that they should enter into prostitution or the pornography industry because there's such a high demand for it, that's not coercion. If you're saying that young women are sometimes kidnapped, held at gunpoint or otherwise threatened into doing it, then yes, I agree that's coercion.

hi hi Julia nice to see you too ~

And yeah, I've personaly given up on expecting anything from any modern dogmatic religious "organization", and I still consider myself a Catholic Christian. The Catholic church became a joke in it's second millenium and the Protestants, eventhough Luther is someone I respect, did nothing but accelerate the fall of humanity into the abyssal spiritual well it is now.

Reading people like Carl Gustav Jung helps a lot on reconstructing oneself avision of Christianity, and I've heard of a lot of theological thinkers from around the 10th century that I've yet to read. So yeah, it's a long search, but a necessary one as long as I'm concerned, anyway. =p

I think that's what we are saying, Alice (your last statement). :)

I thought Christians were supposed to model their life after Christ and Christ alone. It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that one ought to emulate a priest or church leader - in fact, I'm fairly certain it says otherwise - that people are fallible creatures and that one only ought to look up to Christ.

Surely it was wrong of that fellow to judge another person - his job should be the one Jesus assigned to all Christians - "Love god and love your neighbour as yourself."
Of course, prostitution, extra-marital sex and a host of other lewd things a porn star is bound to get tangled up in are all forbidden by the Bible. It would have sufficed for him to quote the necessary parts from the Bible and say that Jesus will judge people according to that.

I am a vehement atheist but I like to keep my enemies close ^__^

niki, a friend of mine has a website and he pretty much believes as I do. In this one particular entry, the comments are very interesting (scroll to the top and click on Aethist Camp ~ you might want to read the article first). But that's for another thread. :-)~

neus, yes you are right in that one should not emulate a priest or church leader, but it DOES say one should live Christ-like as they are witnesses not only in word, but in action. I wish I could give you some verse examples, but I cannot. I only know that it is there.

julia, we are supposed to be as Christ-like as we can, not so that we can get into heaven, but because we want to please God. In other words, it's not a requirement to get into heaven.

Yes, I understand that completely and am fully aware of what it takes to get to heaven. :) Surely you see, though, that this man had no right to judge her and to say she is going to hell because of her lifestyle.

A quick story. About 4 months ago, a friend and I went to a local bar to see a band that we like. A guy came and asked me to dance and I said yes, though he is not someone I normally would have taken notice to. Regardless, he was very nice, his manners were impressive and just a swell guy. He said he was from Macon (about 30 minutes north of me) and I quizzed him as to why he was at a bar that far from home when Macon has so much more to offer.

He replied that "When you're desparate, you'll go anywhere." I nicely told him that is something he might not want to say to the next gal he dances with...haha. Anyhow, he asked me again several times after that to dance and I politely turned him down. About midnight, he felt the need to tell me that was leaving because he had to get up to go to church the next morning.

With some laughter in my voice, but meaning what I said, I told him that was funny that someone who was making sure he got up to appear at church was hanging out in a place the night before that most in that church would consider a den of iniquity. His reply? "Oh, there are several of us who go to bars around Macon, but we don't discuss it with each other."

How much more hypocritical can that be in living two lifestyles, knowing that one is "wrong" in the eyes of God?

Sorry, that wasn't as quick as I thought. ;_;

The reason why Christians are so uptight about people with loose morals and such stuff is because they're jealous of the life they lead.
You know why?

Because forgiveness is the key.
If a person is repentant of their sins, God will let em get into heaven.

They're jealous beacause a person who's lived a seemingly wicked life can STILL get into heaven if he or she is repentant, while they've been doing nothing but good all their lives.

They feel as if these people are deliberately taking advantage of this 'loophole', so to speak.
It was the basis of the story of Constantine - Gabrielle believed that there were too many people getting into heaven who didnt deserve to be there, and so was trying to resurrect the anti-christ so that only those who were TRULY followers of God and belived in him would be saved and welcomed into heaven.
It was also sort of mentioned in Dogma.

That's my take on it, anyway.

I'm not quite sure I agree with the being jealous mentality. To me, it's a case of being close-minded and being self-righteous. My take on anyone who is self-righteous ~ they wipe their ass just like I do.

I really, really wish I knew who that dude was that made that comment about Jenna J. It would be interesting to read about him and his outlook on life. Kind of reminds me of Fred Phelps, a supposed Christian who delights in the deaths of gay people, Hurricane Katrina, 9/11, etc, etc.

Alright, so. I hate to get involved in this, but I think the psychological implications with Jenna are a little more important than the religious ones. I've never really had too much respect for a girl who fucks for fame and cash.

First of all - who is anyone to judge anyone else when it comes to religion. Religion has become so intensely perverisfied from one sect to another that it doesn't even MATTER anymore.

I'm not going to sit here and argue scripture from the Bible, but I am pretty sure turning tricks for money and allowing the whole world watch something that is supposed to be "sacred" is frowned upon by any church.

Of course, the church doesn't designate who goes to heaven or hell, but they proclaim to be a good guide to getting into heaven.

Tama8-chan, for using a comic book movie and a Kevin Smith movie as a basis for your agrument, I salute you.

I think it sums up how serious relegion should be, because for something with no set answer, people get really uptight about their opinions, and then it leads to some dude saying Jenna Jameson is goin to Hell; which she definately shouldn't, because think of all the people who's lives she's enriched.

Pr0n. It keeps me from dry-humpping the couch.

I certainly won't disagree with you, Sass, that her profession is looked down on any church. Hell, even by non-religious people. Doesn't matter, apparently there is a lucrative career in porn. If the people aren't buying it, she sure wouldn't be making the money she does, no?

The church DOES designate who is going to heaven and hell. According to Southern Baptists and the Bible they use, if you aren't saved, you are going to Hell. Simple as that. Oh, also, if your name is in God's Book of Life, you are going to Heaven. Which means he knows you will eventually be saved.

How other denominations account for who is going to heaven and hell, I can't accurately answer that. Seeing as how Catholics believe in Purgatory, I'm not sure if that is a step up to Heaven or just a holding place to decide where you will eventually go.


Edit: whinehurst ~ loved the last comment!

Something I always wondered about porn stars is: what do they tell their children? They're bound to find out at some point. And even if their parents tell them it's a perfectly legitimate job, how do they deal with the fact that their friends are fantasizing about having sex with their mother?

I dunno, a lot of times it looks like doing porn is like getting a tattoo; it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Dhsu, good question and one that was brought up in the interview. She and her husband both said they would definitely tell their children what she did for a living. Though she did say when she ever has children, she will leave the business to raise their children.

And you're going to tell me that teenage males don't fantasize about their friend's hot mom, whether she is a porn star or not? ;-)

Because people are willing to buy it makes it alright? Thats certainly a capitalist point of view, Julia! ^_^

I am an atheist and *I* frown upon the behavior. I think it's immoral, I think it's greedy, and I think it indicates psychological problems. Maybe theres a common thread between my thinking and the church's. Maybe we all find it fundamentally wrong to do. But I am sure it can be argued either way.

And I am sure you can see where you can understand that not all churches OR religions think this way. I think that any church who decides something that GOD should decide is a crock to begin with. So. (And yea, I think the Southern Baptists have been in the sun too long. They aren't the end-all on religious authority.)

Yea, thats ONE way to twist things. I grew up on the Catholic version - they don't have a Book of Life. (At least not that *I* ever learned about, and I did some heavy catechism back in my day) I guess that means that some religions make shit up - be it the Catholics or the Baptists, the Jews or the Muslims - you need to take it all with a grain of salt.

Yea, they're all a bunch of crazy dudes hopped up on wine and the body of Christ. You should ignore what they say. ^_^

What I am trying to say is that personally, I don't try and live by what the church tells me to do. They're not my moral guide. Now, I can't say that EVERYONE should do that, but really. Let's be real - some churches would say "Yea, Jameson is cool so long as she accepts Christ into her life" and others will be all "DUDE, SHES GOING TO BURN."

It's all a bunch of arbitrary silliness.

I'd hope so. Otherwise, "take your child to work" day would be awkwaaaaarrrrd :(

There are some zealot-like folks who try to and often become mouthpieces of religion. Folks live too much in constant fear of the Almighty and what-have-you. Bottom line is the church ain't perfect, irregardless of what they might think of themselves. But due to their position in society, they can rant and rave and brand people as hell-bound and not many folks will step up and tell them to back down. Kind of like the annoying, 80-year-old, crazy relative that nobody knows but he always comes to family reunions and thanksgiving. The one that wears diapers and flings dinner rolls at family members, calling them obscene things while everyone tries to ignore him >_>

Talking sense to zealots never ends well. I remember getting into a debate over stem cell research with some gal I know recently. She was a pro-lifer, and boy... We're talking about craaaaaazy views on the stuff. Could end a number of hereditarial diseases and restore nerve damage. But the researchers and the folks helping it will be condemned to hell. wtf >__> Then my crack was "we'll see how you feel about it if you should break your back and lose the usage of half or more of your body." That didn't go over well with her... :(

Porn hasn't been a highly-held model job by anyone. But it's somewhat based on prostitution, the oldest profession in the world. Some folks will say they're doing it "because they need the money." That's just a quitter attitude. I know a few gals who are complete knockouts around here that were evidently offered jobs that'd pay nicely for dubious activity (Playboy recruits quite heavily here, and there are a few strip joints littered about). But they turn it down and just work hard at a more respective job. Something that won't haunt them per se.

Eerily interesting topic to read about =o

I don't recall saying it was alright, though I personally don't see the problem with it. If they are a'buying, she'll be a'sellin'. Are you saying that all the people who watch porn have psychological problems as well? Really, isn't it about supply and demand? How is she being greedy?

My bad ~ I should have stated I was using the Southern Baptists as only one example ~ or more so, the one I know best. And so I basically assumed this gentleman was of the Christianity faith, Baptist I would even bet, since that (Christianity) is the predominant religion in this country and they (Baptists) are fervent about Hell.


And you're right, it's all relative to what a religion believes. But my point was, and again, I'm assuming, but I doubt I'm wrong, if this man is a Christian, he is not supposed to judge. Or is maybe that only preached in certain denominations of Christianity? (rhetorical, not expecting you to know or answer).


Gechmir ~ yes, I understand that the church and its people aren't perfect. They'd be God, then. :-)~ But to publically say what he said is not smiled upon by God almighty. As for the knockouts you know, I'm not sure what to say about that except that some people won't do it because of their moral beliefs, choosing to have a more respected job, or they can just plain be shy about getting naked for strangers.

It doesn't matter the reason. Not everyone thinks porn, prostitution, and the like is wrong. Jim Bakker and Jerry Swaggart sure didn't. :-)~

Ah, I love when we can talk about whores, Julia. It makes my day. You're always so fun. <3

So you wouldn't have a problem if you had a daughter and she was a porn star? Or maybe a prostitute? You think thats great? You would wish her the best in porking a handful of different men daily? Or would you be happier for her if she chose another profession?

I am talking about the morality vs. the money. People will bend their personal rules for cash almost every day of the week. Its really pitiful if you ask me. I find it EXTREMELY immoral. Maybe you think it's alright - I don't.

My apologies. I didn't mean to jump to conclusions about it.

(No one up here is really too fervent about hell, so it's kind of funny when I hear about preachers and all those clerics going on about FIRE and BRIMSTONE. Hilarity. It just seems to be an OBVIOUS scare tactic to me.)

Who are you to determine what a Christian would do. (I don't mean that to sound offensive.) I mean, seriously. None of you can judge anything, since a "good Christian" is like, totally gray area. No one can seem to AGREE on what a GOOD CHRISTIAN is. Kinda funny, that. ^_^

Who am I to determine? I don't ~ I'm going by what the good book says a Christian should and should not do. :) And by God, God is one serious God when it comes to obeying his laws, no?

As for your first question, I'm not sure what to say. Someone asked me those same questions years ago about Corey when I said pot should be legalized. I told them, that no, I wouldn't particularly like it, but if it is what he wants to do, he will find some way to do it, whether I like it or not. Tehy basically thought I was a horrible mother to even possibly think I would not have a problem with him smoking pot.

And guess what? I dealt with that very issue about 6 months ago while I was gone from GFF. I can't say that I jumped for joy when I found out; I was more upset in the manner of how it came to happen (long, boring story). But regardless, I have since then known about when he has drank and the times he has smoked pot because he tells me and doesn't sneak behind my back. I'm not sure if that makes sense to you or makes me sound leniant, but I guess I am pretty laid back about those things.

I just don't know what to answer to your daugher questions. Though I've never been paid to have sex, I've been with a lot of people in my 43 years, starting from the age of 19. Does that make me a bad person or a whore?

Immorality is a tough issue~

Ah, Julia. EVERYONE sees something different in the Bible. Apparently, you and the rest of the world all have different opinions! Makes life interesting, right?

I am going to BITE my tongue on my perspective on this one. ;_;

Must be a regional thing.

Like most things, it's easy to say what you WOULD do until it actually happens. The story changes a little when it happens to you.

Depends on your motivations in sleeping with these men. ^_^

Tough, but infinitely interesting, you've gotta admit.

The thing is, julia, we're ALL bad people. Every single one of us. And self-righteousness is just as big a sin as fornication. NO ONE is in a position to judge anyone else. That's for God and God alone to do.

O MAN JULIA. YOU'RE GOING TO HELL, YOU SELF-RIGHTEOUS BITCH.

Look at me. I am trying to be funny.

So wait. Fornication is technically a sin, now? Maybe I have confused the definition of "fornication," but isn't it essentially sex? Because if sex is a sin in Alice's church, man. We're all going to hell.

Fornication is sex outside of marriage. Oh, and I wasn't saying that julia is self-righteous. I was talking about preacher-man from E!

Fornication is sex out of wedlock, I believe.

Edit: Jacked.

It's a sin outside of marriage according to some and the Catholics certainly think sex is only for pro-creation...haha. Correct me on that one if I'm wrong.

Exactly. Hence me not being able to fully and honestly answer your question about having a daughter who might do what Jenna J. does. I can't say I'd be thrilled to know she would be called the names she would be called. As for Jenna, she accepts that as part of what she does and can grasp that not everyone agrees with what she does.


Sex might possibly be the driving force here for me? I can honestly say most were out of being horny and not for love. What can I say? I like sex. A few years ago when I thought about this and the people I had been with, it came out to be an average of about 1 person a year. This is taking into consideration that some years I was with more than one person and some years, concurrent with each other even!, I did not have sex at all. Does that make me a slut because I like sex and have been with more people than I can count on two hands? I don't think so. I don't dress like one and don't carry myself as one. I'm certainly not a whore as I don't get paid for sex, if we want to use those terms.

Anyhow, yeah, I'm being self-righteous alright. :-)~ Not. I'm just saying just because this preacher believes what he believes does not make Jenna J. a bad person. But he is certainly going to do his best to make her look bad.

Money is not the only form of payment. ;)

Man, you gave me away, Dhsu. haha...nah, no other forms of payment either.

No where to my knowledge does it say that sex outside of marriage is a sin, but many churches would love to have you think that way. :-/

What is morality? A question between what is viewed as right and wrong, correct? What about morality will keep you from getting to heaven? Morality and sin is not always the same thing. Yes working for the porn industry is morally wrong to some, but is it something that you believe God would bar you from heaven for?

Here is a situation for you. A man and a woman, married, come under hard times financially. Due to the situation the man is unable to work, (ie disabled, cripple, whatever use your imagination, etc) so they decide that in order to get enough money to put food on their plate that they will prostitute the woman’s body as a means of survival.

The question is this, is it a sin? Also do you consider this immoral?

Uh, yea. It's still immoral. If anything, even worse.

So two idiots decide that their only option to make any money is to whore the wife out to make a buck.

So you're syaing that BECAUSE the husband (or whomever) says thats its OKAY to do, it's no longer IMMORAL? Because both parties AGREE that it's okay? Wow. Thats....uh....interesting.

Be careful what you say, buddy. I hope you don't actually THINK it's okay to do.

No and no.

I meant according to the Bible it is a sin to fornicate. Fornication is sex between people who are not married to each other. I guess that can emcompass two people who are single and not married to each other and also two people (or one isn't) who are married, but not to each other.

Ok, I found a page that explains what they think fornication is. It lists some OT and NT verses about fornication. http://www.rmsbibleengineering.com/P...y/Page2_1.html

A better question to ask is why it is immoral. It easier to simply label something as immoral/unethical/wrong than it is to explain why it is so. And I mean an explanation other than an appeal to authority (God says so, the Bible says so, the Law says so).

In this case, you're going to get into some deeper philosophy. People have questioned how we came up with the concept of "good" and "bad" since the beginning of reasoning.

Some people use religion, others use logic, others use what other people have studied. No one will have a straight answer for the world. It's a personal truth.

Forgetting religion for a moment, I want to know WHY exactly being a porn star is immoral.

Because I can't come up with any reasons in particular, besides lack of fulfilling labor.

Because I got bored about halfway through this here second page with responses, I'm going to blindly offer my two cents and give you all my whole stance on this thing.

First of all, I speak as a Christian who is fully aware of all the bullshit I've pulled off over the years. I am fully aware I am not perfect, that I sin just like everybody else, and that I'm only human and can only follow in what good footsteps that are laid out before me. I only have two feet, and I'm sure I will trip along the way, but the the important thing for me is to keep trying to follow that path; to be as good and as geniune as possible, even though most of humanity enrages the ever-living shit out of me.

As Alice said above, people here on earth, even those associated with Churches and other such Holy things... While they may be "leaders" of a sort, they are not capable of dictating how we should live our lives, nor are they capable of dictating where we go after we die. That is left for God and God alone to do when that time comes. So, essentially, just continue living your life as you are and have been, and don't worry about it too much. I mean, just concentrate on being a good person; if you have to ask yourself "what makes a person good?" there's a good chance you're not one of those people!

ANyway, now about the whores and hookers, thing. I don't especially approve of prostitution, but... Unfortunately, people are going to find a way to sell themselves whether the rest of us like it or not. And because of that, we kind of have to get past our own personal vendetta's and just accept the fact that hey, shit happens. OH well.

My own personal stance on prostitution and whore-ism is this: I think it's some warped feminist bullshit that women around the world who are particularly keen on sex use to... Well, solicite themselves. I don't think it's a legitimate job, even if you do get paid and get paid well for it. Hitmen get paid a lot of money to nip off other people's wives, husbands, children, etc, so getting paid to do something doesn't mean it's a good job to have, nor does it make it any more of a "socially acceptable" thing to do (However I say this as someone who draws porn and posts it publicly on a frequent basis)

I do not know Jenna Jameson nor do I really care who she is. If she's a good person, she's a good person, I won't argue that. I don't care for her profession much, but if it's something she enjoys, I guess all I can say all the more power to her. And, you know, offer a prayer for her protection. I hear being a hooker/prositute/porn star can be a pretty dangerous business ;_;

As for Christians and their malarchy, well, I never take those religious types seriously, and I would offer that advice to anyone listening to people like that. They use their religion to spread their personal beliefs, and while I'm an Atheist, if God does exist, I know for sure that these crazy Fundamentalists are going to be the ones burning in Hell.

As for the porn industry, I don't see a problem with it. Yes, some girls and women are kidnapped and forced into it, but by and large, it's a voluntary job. I'd say the hookers and especially the strippers of the world are laughing all the way to the bank, considering how much they get paid. Sex, well, we all know how much fun that is. Stripping, well, I've never been a stripper, but I have done my fair share of erotic dancing and such on a more personal level, and I must admit, it's actually pretty hot even for the one doing the stripping. Heck, even I've thought about getting into porn a couple times, but I just can't bring myself to "sell myself"; that, however, is a personal choice, and I have no problem with women who make opposite choice. More power to them, they aren't doing anything wrong. Heck, I believe prostitution should be legalized, personally.

Just remember to note that assassins are getting paid to hurt (kill) people, while prostitutes are getting paid to give pleasure. In my opinion, that makes all the difference. Too bad my morals conflict with my job so often (I technically shouldn't be condoning prostitution) . . .

He probably belongs to the same group of preps that would spit on the dorks and party all weekend and then attend church every Sunday. My little sister is almost exactly like the guy you are talking about. It's really annoying, but I keep reminding myself that not all Christians are like them.

The thing about some denominations of Christianity is that they will focus on some parts of the Bible and ignore other parts of the Bible in order to make their point. They used the Bible to justify slavery even though the Bible basically says in context that slavery is bad. They used the Bible against the Women's Movement in the 1900's by saying that women should be subservient to men. A similar thing is going on with homosexuality.

Heck, in the gnotsic books it claims that God will one day perform an "Ultimate Forgiveness". This is where God will look down into Hell and say, "Ok, you've been punished enough, you're free to come home." The entire Bible was built on the idea of chosing some books and rejecting other books. Yes, there were books that were rejected b/c there was no way they could've been credible, but there were other books--like the one mentioning the "Ultimate Forgiveness"--that were considered more credible than even Revelations, yet they didn't like the message it sent, so it wasn't included.

I think some women are against it b/c of the whole feminism movement. Some think that women who parade themselves in front of men and act as though they are just a pair of breasts and a butt may destroy everything feminists have been fighting for: equality. However, third wave feminism has an argument about women using their sexuality in order to get ahead and while the second wave feminism disagree entirely and believe that women who do this sort of thing are destroying their rights to equality.

There's also the whole religious aspect of it where porn and hookers may promote different kinds of sin. The societal taboo regarding porn and hookers also affects the view of women toward other women who like to perform in porn.

My best guess would be b/c some people think it might promote actions such as masturbation and sex outside of marriage (which is considered taboo in some places/religions...yes there are regions where masturbation is considered to be bad). Also, some women feel that if their male partners watch porn then that means they are not attractive and they feel bad about themselves. Hence some of the crazy ramblings of, "You watch porn b/c you don't love me anymore! You don't think I'm pretty! You're cheating on me aren't you?!"

One rule of marriage that my dad and his buddies say to newlyweds: "If she ain't happy...you ain't happy."

The whole concept of Mary Magdalene as prostitute is still up in the air, and not for the bullshit reasons Dan Brown brought up. There's translation problems in the greek and hebrew.

Imagine if they mistranslated one simple word - how many others did they mistranslate? I mean, its plausible. Maybe they really wanted us to do nothing but have orgies all day long.

PattyNBK made a valid point, imo, about the difference between hitmen and prostitutes, etc. Each job, entails at least two people ~ the one who is performing the action and the one who is the recipient of that action. In one case, the recipient is unaware of the action that is going to be performed on them and thusly, they meet their death. The other recepient pays to have a particular action perfomed on or to them and they will go home still alive, and happy, I might add.

I, too, think prostitution should be legalized. If someone wants to pay another for sex, whose business is that but their's? Do prostitutes get busted for receiving favors (jewelry, trips, etc.) instead of money? I ask that as a serious question because I don't know.

In fact, it seems some of you keep forgetting there would be no prostitutes, porn stars and such if there was not a demand for it.

Visavi, this Ultimate Forgiveness ~ I've never heard of it. I guess I need to read up on that.

I know. The issue was only brought up in the 60s though, so it doesnt really change the fact it has been an important symbol of Christinaty for a few thousand years.

It's another topic where, after all, actual truth matters few imo. =p

Yeah but God is pretty forgiving and realizes that keeping the law isn't the primary objective. Read... uh Galatians I think. Paul goes into being justified by faith rather than by the law.

I wonder what the same preacher/priest who condemmed Jameson to eternal damnation would think of Sky Lopez who retired from proning in 05 and is now doing ministry work and persuing a music career.

Julia, I see where you're coming from with the legalization of prostitution. What's funny is that you can't pick up a hooker, but if you have an audition with a video camera, it isn't considered prostitution. The deal about making prostitution illegal is that it's an attempt to legislate morality.

It isn't legalised in some places because the politicians that "ok" the decision would lose the support of the moral majority that currently plagues America and a few other nations around the world. I think it would be far safer for all concerned if there were safe areas... a government-sanctioned red-light district where prostitutes can work safely, without locals getting pissed off that they hang around homes and areas where kids play.

As for this guy who had a go at Jenna, well, don't they say "Let he without sin cast the first stone"? According to Christians, most of the population of the globe is going to hell, including me, so I really wouldn't give a shit about what this guy says. I don't personally think what she does is a morally good thing to do, but if she enjoys herself and has the freedom to do what she wants, I can't complain either.

Ulysses, good points in your first paragraph. And yes, it certainly would make sense to have the prostitutes work in an area where children are not present. That's what they do in Nevada ~ throw the brothels out in the desert. =p

Your Bible quote is basically along the same lines as the one I quoted. He is a sinner too, I realize that, but to publicly throw out that judgment was not the brightest of moves and I would imagine his God is frowning at him for that. Wonder if he will ask God to forgive him for that. I highly doubt it.

There's one line that I'll always remember from the bible, though I haven't actually confirmed if it's ACTUALLY in there or not......

"He came with the strength of the Lord"

take that any way you will XDXD

Rare or not, an estimated half million is still too much: http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/sexslaves.html.

Well, like Seris said, there's a demand for hitmen too. And the people who demand it go home alive and happy.

But yeah, unfortunately the same can't be said for all parties involved. :P

It seems like as a society we haven't fully worked out the implications of our attitudes yet. We seem to have come to accept that we can be promiscuous. That this is ok. It's only a matter of degree to then go on to say promiscuity is ok in a specialized public forum. Similarly with prostitution. If you're not condemning the casual act itself, why condemn it when it's both casual and money is exchanged?

It is true that whomever this person was, He had no authority to judge. As people,
Christians can only say that you will go to hell if you are not forgiven for your
sins, by God.

But its quite false to assume she will go to heaven if she keeps living the lifestyle
she currently does.

You asked and I answered.

So Asia Carerra is going to heaven then?

Of course she is. Who are the male porn stars going to fuck when THEY get to heaven eh?

Not sure why you expect me to know the answer to that.

... dangit.

I agree with some of the points brought up here. Those being,

A. That we (we meaning christians) can't really condemn someone to hell, but we can say based on actions that theres a good chance. The bible does specifically point out that you have to repent & "sin no more" in order to be fully forgiven. The severity of the sins forgiven & not forgiven, as well as what they deserve, are ultimately God's to decide.

B. That pornography is synonymous with prostituition. Also, a promiscuous person is in the same category, makes no difference if your man or woman.

C. I quite like the whole hitman/prostitution angle. I could never put it into words like that.

D. I'm gonna get flamed probably, that the whole hellfire & brimstone thing isn't hell. Hell basically means destruction. Complete & total destruction. As in, if you go to hell, you'll cease to exist. Chrisitanity is based on you choosing to be a Christian out of love, not being "scared straight" as it were. At least that's what the bible says, if you filter out the dogma you hear from current institutionalised religions.

Also, it has been proven, that after being exposed to porn for an extended amount of time, you tend to get in a weird mindset about sex, as well as the opposite sex. Makes people view it as more of a thing you do, then what it is physically & emotionally otherwise.

Very true, and that's actually one of the worse things our societies are cursed with. Takes some time to realize, when you've been raised with naked women all over your cities' walls.

I realize some Christians believe this, but I don't see how it's biblical. If the people in Hell are completely destroyed, how do you explain the "wailing and gnashing of teeth"? I don't believe in fire and brimstone, but I do believe Hell is an actual place which is completely devoid of God. The display of pain (wailing, gnashing) is indicative of an emotional/spiritual pain rather than a physical one.

For those that say "Yes, some girls and women are kidnapped and forced into it, but by and large, it's a voluntary job," you're primarily wrong. Sure, in the United States and Western Europe that might be true.

However, take a trip down to any of the border towns in Mexico, prostitution is often not voluntary there, as is with Thailand, Singapore, most of the Mediterranean African nations, the former Soviet states, and pretty much anywhere one can find child pornography-- as I'm sure none of that is with consent as many are unable to even voice such concerns.

I don't have any real problem with prostitution or pornography, as what goes on between two consenting adults is none of my business. Some women find it very easy to make money and I'm sure it's quite a thrill for many more. Some men, too.

Hell, to be honest, if I knew I could make money as a male stripper, I'd do it. It pays more than what I'm doing now, and if you do it right, your potential earnings are that of any other white-collar job.

I think if anyone watches that episode of the Boondocks with "Crystal" in it, they'll understand, sure they make fun of strippers but it does kind of explain why a woman might do it.

Who is the wronged party where porn is concerned?

He was referring to the victims of the hit, Kolba. Not insinuating that porn necessarilly has its downfalls (though it does. Faceless murders, STDs, most hookers are into drugs and drug dealing as well, etc etc)

He seemed to be pointing out there was demand for hitman too, to draw into question julia's dismissal of the hitman argument. What he's done is highlight even more how tenuous the porn/hitman comparison is (and should be left alone really), since there's no immediate victim with porn. Those downfalls you mentioned are a step removed from the basic question of the morality of the act itself, a stretch that doesn't need to be made when talking about the product of a hitmans work.

Not really. At least, the last I heard the official Catholic definition of Hell (confirmed by the Pope some time ago) is to be in a permenant state of Sin. How does that make sense? Because the accurate definition of Sin is not an evil act, but a condition in which one is out of the sight of God. So, if you are in Hell, you are permenantly out of the sight of God and are eternally alone, abandoned, etc...

Yeah, didn't fire and brimstone come about cause the preachers wanted people to listen to them, so they esentially created a state of fear?

For that matter, wasn't God invented my man?

Who's athiest, raise you hand...

The idea of "fire and brimstone" (which i think brimstone is acutally burning molten sulfur- so you know it smells wonderful like rotten eggs) is a biblical concept. So if it was put in to induce fear, it was done so a long time ago back when John wrote Revelation. It mentions the beast and those that worshipped him being thrown into a lake of fire and brimstone in a few different places.

I'm wondering, what's the point of being an atheist? If there really is no God, then oh well... we'll cease to exist after we die which will be cool. But if atheists are wrong, isn't it better to be safe than sorry? And too, is it really all that bad to try to abide by a code of morality based on the idea of "love your neighbor as yourself" and believe in the idea that a supreme being is going to hook you up forever in the afterlife? Maybe I'm just a product of all that "hellfire and brimstone" preaching.

Of couse there is nothing wrong with abiding by a code of love thy neighbor as thyself. Many people live by that code who are not religious. But that should be my own right to choose to live by that code, not because someone or something (the Bible) tells me I should.

Better safe than sorry? So that means if I live my life according to the Bible, and then it turns out there is no God, nor hell, etc., man, think of all the party time I missed. :p

Ugh, I hate the idea of Pascal's Wager. It completely cheapens why you'd want to believe in God, and takes away your sincerity in your beliefs.

But it brings a valid point. Just imagine how much it'd suck to go through life not believing in God, and then when you die, find out there is one and you go to hell.

I mean I can understand why people believe/don't believe in certain things, but by the same tolken, I kind of don't. Atheists boggle me in that sense, even though I have a lot of friends who aren't religious at all.

If anything, people who believe in God boggle the hell out of me, and such a crude justification only makes me more confused.

I'll take my chances, because from the looks of it, God ain't there, folks. And if he really is, I SINCERELY doubt that he lacks the common sense that he would have to lack to set up such a stupid plan for salvation.

Seris, if we are going by Christianity beliefs, just believing in God does not keep one from going to hell. Also, being Athiest and not being religious are also two very different things.

Pascal's Wager. Have thought about that in a while. If anyone wants to take a few minutes to read this from my friend's forum, it's somewhat interesting about disproving and proving an existence of something.

Hacifusa ~ I agree. Check this out, along with the comments on the second page.

Regarding Pascal's Wager and MetheGelfling/Seris-

so supposing I "love thy neighbour", and follow all of these other moral christian codes too - or at least follow them as well as the average christian - and at the end of it the only puzzle piece missing to seperate me from some no-more-well-intentioned-than-me christian, would be the fact that I didn't believe in god - you're saying this god would turn me away from heaven for this, towards eternal damnation in hell?

Why is this a god an atheist would want to even make the effort of believing in?

Believing in God simply so you don't go to hell is not enough to save your soul. If God is all powerful and all knowing, then he knows that you're simply believing in him to avoid hell. And thus, that's exactly where you'll be going.

That is, Pascal's Wager may make sense, it wouldn't work. Believing not because you fell you have nothing to lose is not a true belief.

That's not exactly what I was getting at, acid. I was just saying, it would suck to find out either way on both ends that when we die, God may or may not exist. It was just kind of a rebuttal against whoevers comment up there.

Either way, I don't believe in God because I don't want to go to hell (which I don't but ANYWAY); I believe in God because... Well. I like believing.

It's kind of hard to explain, but..

Actually, the Holy Grail of the anti-gay freaks, the Book of Leviticus, condones slavery as long as the slave is from another land.

http://bibleresources.bible.com/keyw...23&Submit.y=14

Here are all the things found regarding slavery in the Book of Leviticus:

Leviticus 19:20 (Whole Chapter)
" 'If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed.

Leviticus 22:11 (Whole Chapter)
But if a priest buys a slave with money, or if a slave is born in his household, that slave may eat his food.

Leviticus 25:39 (Whole Chapter)
" 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave.

Leviticus 25:42 (Whole Chapter)
Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves.

Leviticus 25:44 (Whole Chapter)
" 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

Leviticus 25:46 (Whole Chapter)
You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Leviticus 26:13 (Whole Chapter)
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt so that you would no longer be slaves to the Egyptians; I broke the bars of your yoke and enabled you to walk with heads held high.

Wow, huh? So yeah, you can have slaves, they just can't be from your own nation. I know I wouldn't worship this God . . . So I guess I better hope Christians are wrong. I'm Atheist kinda, but I do believe in a "higher power", just not the Christians' version.

Heck, the Book of Leviticus is my Holy Grail against Christianity; it shows the hypocracy of the Bible in its fullest and most potent form. If you're gay, you get executed and go to Hell. If you're a prostitute, you get executed and go to Hell. If you sleep with a woman while she's on her period . . . you get executed and go to Hell. Okay, not really (not in all cases), but that's the jist of it all.

So....did Jenna Jameson say she believed in God?
Actually...has ANY pornstar openly admitted to being a practicing christian?

It'd be fucking hilarious to see that priest's face explode if JJ says that she believes in God and goes to church every sunday XD

Pascal's Wager is not a good reason to believe in God, but it sure as hell is a good reason to seek God.

Patty - Leviticus is Old Testament. What you're reading is Mosaic Law, which was "fulfilled" (read: made obsolete) by Jesus. Not sure why you guys love the OT books so much, but it would be cool if you read the whole book sometime.

Also, the "if you X, you go to hell" thing is actually not quite accurate. The OT Jews didn't have a hell or even an afterlife, actually. Sounds crazy, but go look for explicit mention of the afterlife in the OT the likes of which you can easily find in the NT.

Another thing is the difference between what slavery meant in the OT, NT and pre-Civil War America. In the OT, these people were usually prisoners of war and in the NT, they were people with outstanding debts and were treated more like indentured servants.

One more reason everyone should be Lutheran...we only use the Old Testament for arts and crafts time. Gotta love those purple arks full of blue elephants and polka-dotted tigers.

All slaves were pardoned of thier debts and freed every 7 years as well.

Oh right. Jubilee. I forgot about that. I'm not sure that applied to slavery in the Roman society, though, which Paul condoned. But that could be an "everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial" type situation. Also, again, these slaves were not really mistreated and had the rights of basic citizens, minus the right to keep their earnings. Some of them were as well respected in the community as PhDs would be today.

Well, a cursory glance at the wikipedia article states that Spartacus was either an outlaw or a prisoner of war and that this took place over 100 years before Paul wrote about the Romans and slavery. The Servile Wars (one of which was lead by Spartacus) may have had an effect on Roman slavery policy. So, I'm not really sure your point is relevent.

It's interesting to me no one has differentiated hard and soft core porn here. In fact, it's been generally and assumed they hold the same level of morality. Although I don't think a situation in which every participant is happy is an immoral thing, I'm suprised no one would find paid penetration worse than tastefully done nude photography. Is everyone buying into the definition of "erotica" crap- personally I say that's more about art than jollies- or is it just assumed due to Jenna (sp? do I care?) that they are one and the same or is this an actual viewpoint?

I'm pretty sure if it was supposed to be indicative of emotional/spiritual pain it wouldn't have been described as a burning lake of fire. You aren't cozeying up to this symbolic interpretation because the idea of God inflicting real pain makes you a little uncomfortable, are you? Interpretation based off of personal desires isn't a good thing.

Oh, I forgot that Christianity is the only popular western religion that involves God/s and love in a way which condemns all other faiths to hell.

Made obsolete? That's your opinion. There were many early christians called Ebionites (Peter very likely being one of them, Gal 2:14) who thought you needed to convert to Judaism and follow their laws in order to be saved by Christ.

This is also very debatable, especially considering how the Bible says Enoch was swooped up into Heaven while he was still alive. There was someone else in the OT who was taken up while alive too I believe, but I forget who. Please don't make such sweeping generalities as if they're airtight facts when you (hopefully) know they aren't.

Oh, and if the Christian heaven does exist, porn stars aren't getting in, or gay people, or anybody non-Christan (2/3rds of the world) regardless of how you live your life. But then, I don't believe in the Christian heaven.

I'm not going to further derail this thread with a pointless debate, but I'd just like to point out the irony in your castigating me with one side of your mouth for being certain about my interpretation of scripture, while making assertions yourself with the other, e.g. who gets into heaven, about the lake of fire (which I'm certain is a literary device).

The Romans had no real concept of "innocents." Either you were a citizen, or subservient. The value of a slave was subjective, so yeah, it's entirely possible (and did in fact happen) that slaves were respected in a few Roman communities. Those crucified as a warning to Spartacus would've been slaves of no particular value whatsoever.

Slaves could be considered a part of a family, or they could just be treated like shit, or worked half to death in the mines. Which is essentially not that different from how slaves were treated in the 19th century South.

They hardly had the "basic rights" of citizens. They couldn't vote after all. It was bad enough with the Plebes. ;(

As for who gets into heaven, I stressed the Christian heaven, as is believed by the majority of the Christian leadership and followers. If you disagree with my assessment of who gets in then you're not mainstream Christianity.

As for the lake of fire, John was being shown visions by God. This negates the notion that John was specifically using those words and/or ideas as a clever literary device. Unless, of course, you want to call bullshit on his claim that visions were shown to him by God (1:10-11).

This reminds me of a news story a while ago about a female teacher who had nude/semi-erotic pictures of herself posted on the internet by way of her artistic lover, and she ended up getting suspended from school because another teacher found the website they were on and reported it. Conservatives were saying how it was immoral while Liberals were saying she has every right to express herself in this way. It'll be interesting to see whether God's a conservative or liberal, if one exists.

I like how you question the integrity of scripture because it conflicts with your worldview. I also like how every thread you post in manages to derail into some rant about your delusions of persecution. If a religious person ever was as obnoxious and inane about homosexuals as you are about them, you'd be screaming bloody murder. You whine about being called a sinner and yet the bible calls all men sinners. You condemn the entirety of the religious right as intolerant bigots and haters. You have become that which you loathe. I hope you're proud of yourself.

I'm just going to close this now before another round of The Neverending Battle of Patty vs Christianity can be fought.