I'm sorry, but I find someone taking something Hezbollah says with a straight face amusing. While it might be true that they weren't in the specific buildings(after all, there's so many civilian buildings that Hezbollah likes to hide in, how can you be sure you're blowing up the right ones?) that were destroyed, taking their word for it is kind of pointless.

Is what Israel is doing right? I honestly can't say. They're trapped in a nasty mess with an enemy who does like to hide it's forces among civilians. That's standard terrorist tactics. Hell, Hezbollah is BRAGGING about Israel killing more civilians than Hezbollah soldiers/guerillas/terrorists(take your pick on what you want to call them) which tells you how much they really care about the people of Lebanon.

Doing a prisoner exchange is pointless though. That'll just encourage groups like Hezbollah and Hamas to do it again and again. So I agree with Israel's no prisoner exchange stance.

Really, Israel loses no matter what they do. Lebanon loses even more no matter what happens. In the final analysis though, Israel is going to do what's best for Israel though, not what's best for Lebanon. Just like Iran is going to do what's best for Iran, the US is going to do what's best for the US, and every other country is going to do what's best for them. Until now Lebanon saw it as being in their best interests not to have a civil war with Hezbollah. This worked in the short run but it's now costing them as Hezbollah stirred up Israel.

And I'm of the opinion that there are no real workable solutions to the whole mess in the Middle East. Although the cynic in me says that a few decades down the road a real workable solution might come up in the form of mutual nuclear annihilation at the rate everyone there is going.

A question, if there were rockets in the building, shoudln't it do a BIG HELL OF A GREAT BLAST????? it only crumbled like any other buliding and no rockets were found when taking out the 37 dead children and 25 other males and females and when the investigations were carried. So your video is as good as any cinematic done video!!!

And the soldiers WERE in Lebanon. Just because the CNN says so and everyone else says otherwise, it doesn't mean the CNN is the rightful news. THey were in our territories and we had every right to do what we did. And about the shelling from day one, that's wrong info.

And a workable solution is not give israel what they want either!!! Dream on about that too!

The Hezbollah always had soldiers captured and exchanged them for prisonners, and Israel always did. So don't tell me that the exchange was impossible because they used to do it so the war is Israel's fault, they announced it... As easy as that!!!!

You don't seem to understand why this justification doesn't work. At all.

Consider this hypothetical dialogue between two members of a group which regularly kidnaps and ransoms people. Let me know if it makes sense:

1> "So it looks like the cops are trying to capture us again"
2> "Yeah, whats with that? We've always kidnapped someone rich, and gotten a lot of money out of their relatives. A simple exchange. Its a good system: we get money, and they get their relatives back."
1> "I don't understand why the police keep wanting to capture us. Its like we're doing something that other people don't like. WTF?"
2> "What a pain. It would be nice if those darned cops would lay off us for once."

Mistakes happen and people die. Accept that, that is part of life and move on. You want to sit and pin Isreal as a bad guy, fine go ahead. You want to support the actions that Hezbollah is taking against Isreal go ahead. If you think it's ok for Hezbollah to blindly shoot rockets into Isreal to murder innocent civilians and destroy houses and businesses fine. You can't condem Isreal and not condem YOUR organization for doing the same exact thing.

Are you a member of Hezbollah then? I only make the assumption right now because you said that "They were in our territories and we had every right to do what we did" God knows that the Lebenese Government had nothing to do with the kidknapping of the Isreali soldiers so that kind of leads me to believe that you are either a member or a supporter of a Terrorist organization. I mean please correct me if I'm incorrect in my statement. I guess I could use the word sympothizer also but that just doesn't sound right for the group you're supporting / a part of.

I guess you've never known or met a bully in your life. Just because Hezbollah has captured soldiers and exchanged them in the past with Isreal doesn't mean that it's going to work out every time. I knew kids back in school that would get juked every day for their lunch money because the bullies in knew the kids would openly give them their money with no questions. It takes a bully a simple fuck no and a pop in the face to get the message and to leave the kid alone.

Oh yeah I'm sure you'd be totally ready to accept bombs raining down on your neighbours and just move on if it was happening in Iowa.

Yeah because Israel is totally the victim here, being bullied by powerful, mean Arab states, stealing all their lunch money and pushing them into the dirt. But it's ok, kill a few of their children and they'll get the message.

We really should just ban analogies from PP.

Learn2history.

Israel has been bullied many many times by those powerful mean arab states say since DAY 1 of Israel's formation?

No analogies here. Look up
Israel War of Independence
Six-Day War
Yom Kippur War

Hezbollah TV is NOT everyone else. You've supplied one source that's not affiliated with anti-Israeli and/or pro-Arab groups that says that the Israeli's were in Lebanon at the time. CNN, MSNBC, FOX, etc, all say they were in Israeli territory during the kidnapping. The one source you did supply that wasn't a Hezbollah propaganda machine was a source that nobody knows about it's reliability because nobody watches it.

So evidently Hezbollah is going to try and hit Tel Aviv with...something. Perhaps we are going to see some new ordinance not seen yet.

I'm not sure about the location of the kidnapping, but Arabs consider the Shebaa Farms part of Lebanon, and not Israel. That might account for the issue, as it is land Israel stole in a previous war.

The escalation of this war has been absolutely perposterous however. Israel has been brutally slaughtering innocents for an action, while serious, amounts to very little and could be resolved through diplomacy. Israel's behavior is more of that of a terrorist orginization than a soverign state.

As for hitting Tel Aviv, they might have some ordinance capable of that. New weapons keep emerging every once in a while.

Terrorism is a deliberate action designed solely to harm civillian targets.

Israel has only killed civillians because Hezbollah hides among civillians, making them collateral damage.

You can't negotiate with an organization who wants your country destroyed - completely. You either kill them or they kill you. It's that simple.

Actually, if they know that they hide among civilians, it's not collateral damage, but intended damage. Don't make it sound like they don't have a choice, here.

No, because Isreal did not intend to kill civillians. They only struck known Hezbollah targets - which just so happened to be surrounded by civillians. Isreal did not intentionally target civillians. The civillians killed, thus, are still collateral damage.

The only alternative they have is to not strike back against Hezbollah who is lobbing rocket artillery onto their cities, which is unacceptable by anyone else's tandards.

And yet a majority of Israel's targets are civilian targets. Four bridges today, multiple airports, as well as other infastructure areas, and civilian houses have been hit. Hezbollah having southern Beirut as a stronghold does not justify blasting the entire city under the pretense of collateral damage.

Israel has negotiated with Hezbollah in dealing with prisoners before. Both groups have prisoners of each other and would like them back.


You're simplifying the situation a lot more than it actually is. Also, the classification of Hezbollah as a terrorist orginization isn't even complete, while the US, Canada, and Israel say so, the EU thinks differently.

so, using your own definition of terrorism, as well as the UN building incident (to name just one) where they knew only innocent civilians would be killed, that makes the israeli army a terrorist organisation.

If Hezbollah is not a terrorist organization, maybe you could tell us just what miltary targets they are attempting to hit with these rockets and missiles. Indiscriminately launching rockets at populated cities and towns, seems like a terrorist action to me. Hezbollah doesn't even attempt to claim the civilians they murder as collateral damage, since killing civilians is their goal, as opposed to those killed by the Israeli air strikes.

I'm going to have to ask you to prove that there was even a single instance where Isreal deliberately attacked a target to kill civillians.

U.N.

I think, Israel with its high-tech gadgetry and military assets can make difference between U.N labeled vehicles and others.

Lebonan is 'test bed' for Israel,following the policy of 'shoot first ask questions later'.

No matter the sophisticated weaponry of today, accidents always happen. Surely the United States, with it's high-tech weapons and military assets, could avoid 'friendly fire', right? No military force is perfect. In war, accidents will forever be inevitable.

But you still haven't answered Night Phoenix's question. He specifically asked: "I'm going to have to ask you to prove that there was even a single instance where Isreal deliberately attacked a target to kill civillians." - It would be like me claiming: "Sexninja absolutely hates dogs! In fact, I saw him beating one the other day!"

You or other members would ask for proof. If I responded by only saying how I found a hurt dog on the street the other day or located pictures showing one injured, it wouldn't prove that you were responsible. No, you'll have to prove Israel is purposely attacking civilians. I recommend posting a reliable news article.

<sigh> I can't believe people are STILL using this as a pathetic excuse to justify Hezzbolah's actions. Once a bitch, always a bitch eh? Maybe Israel is tired of being pushed around?

That and other similiar asserations are soo much bullshit. Answer one question:

1.) Is Israel using its full military might on Lebanon?

maybe some other side issues to consider is why isn't Israel using it's nuclear weapons if its intent was to cause maximum civillian casulties? Why is Israel bothering to tell people to evacuate ahead of time? Why is Israel doing house to house fighting when it could just level the entire city?

I mean damn... if a military general was aiming for maximum civillian casulties they sure SUCK AT IT.




So Hezzbollah as an organization cares so much about their own people that they will ONLY operate in the Southern Lebanon theater and promise not to run north?

Whether Hezbollah is a terrorist organization or not is open and shut case.

Whether the Lebanese citizens who *VOTED* Hezzbolah into power and refusing to disarm them should pay for Hezzbolah's crimes is a little trickier.

sorry pal, but when the vast majority of the lebanese death toll belongs to civilians the onus is on YOU to prove that they AREN'T deliberately targeting civilians.

It tends to be the case that Israel does a lot of the pushing. Palestine jumps to mind pretty quickly.

And yet they've still managed to kill roughly 700 civilians, and considering the amount of ordinance used for an army roughly 3000 strong, its excessive.

Also, they've done a pretty good job of leveling cities anyways. Beirut, Tyre, and a few other places have taken billions of dollars worth of damage.

Until Israel started destroying the country, they wouldn't have been able to. The attitude was shifting against Hezbollah, but of course, thats not the case anymore.

Which is exactly the most important point of this all.

Let's face it: The only one thing that is already certain about the war is that nothing good will come of it. Whatever happens - Hezbollah will emerge strengthened. If there had been hopes in the past that Lebanon would slowly become a normal country, where Hezbollah would be deprived of a pretext for maintaining a military force of its own, they were now provided with the perfect justification: Israel is destroying Lebanon, only Hezbollah is fighting to defend the country. Nobody else is.

How quick we are to devalue life. Of course Israel aren’t intending to kill civilians –and who would be stupid enough to admit that? This fact, however, doesn’t make the results of their actions any less abhorrent or somehow immune from criticism. Does a ‘kill or be killed’ argument really apply given the disproportionate military strength in Israel’s favour? Ok, there are rocket attacks in Haifa in the north, but based on the death and injury tolls, it is relatively little compared to sophisticated carnage created by the Israeli precision strikes. It’s like going after a fly with a hammer, but calling for some restraint at this point is too little too late.

Israel have been keen to differentiate between Hezbollah targets and the ‘normal’ Lebanese, however ask yourself what kind of impact do you think these activities will have on the moderate Lebanese government and the future of the region? You have to remember that past conflicts with Lebanon have been resolved with dialogue and diplomacy; ie a government open to discussion. There’s been some talk that if the invasion was able to convince normal Lebanese to reject Hezbollah (Adamigan’s mentioned the shift already), but if the long term effect ends up with them being replaced by radicals… well, it’s not as if the region isn’t destabilised enough already.

Maybe Israel do suck at military strategy. This attempt to crush Hezbollah over a couple of soldiers has gone on for three weeks and killed more civilians than terrorists, so wouldn’t you say that this quick show of strength has backfired? On the day Israeli leader Olmert announced that they’ve crushed Hezbollah, the rockets still continue to fall. Now there’s some talk of holding the territory or leaving it to an International (UN) peacekeeping force -good luck on getting volunteers for that. Until that happens, Israel will be holding onto territory while all the while losing casualties and international goodwill (not that they’ve ever cared for that).

I think it’s a little deeper than that. Simplifying things is often a good idea, but it lends itself to making you look like a shallow fool. Ask yourself what kind of ‘terrorists’ are you thinking of? If you’ve really read your history, you’d know that the origin of Hezbollah was entwined in a regional conflict in repelling Israel from Lebanon, and thus lends itself to much popular support from the Lebanese. Freedom fighters could also be an apt tag, although this on its own does not justify their actions. As such, any implied comparisons to ‘destroy the non-islamic world’ global terrorists (a la Al-Qaeda) are null.

In the interests of simplicity, yes.