Ya, either way you're worried :|.... lol

It occurs to me recently. I believe that I believe that religion, in general, exists in order that man should transcend himself. The emotional archetypes we see represented in our gods and goddesses, we grow to embody them with worship. In this sense, we can tap into resources that would otherwise be beyond our reach. There is power there. It is a wondrous thing.

Perhaps I might even venture that the christian god makes things difficult in this fashion, attempting to embody too many conflicting archetypes.

I don't really believe in any religion. I'm starting to read about scientology but I don't believe in it. At first I thought it was just about aliens and stuff like that (blame south park) but it's not.

You're correct in saying abortions affect society. Unfortunately you apparently have no clue as to how it does. An amazing economist, Steven Levitt, published an abortion paper in 2001 detailing how the availability of abortion for the poor urban population of the US had strong correlation to crime rates steeply declining from 1991 to 2001. Would-be criminals coming into their 20's were instead aborted when clinics opened up everywhere in the 70s. You can read a detailed account of his argument in his book Freakonomics. Your argument that abortion makes people care less about each other is rediculous. Show some facts or evidence. I don't think decreasing crime rates will do much in the way of helping your argument.


Some evidence and correlations, please.



You keep arguing that society with birth control causes more unwanted children then society with no birth control, but you provide no evidence. You know what happens when somebody gets pregnant while using birth control? They get an abortion in most cases. Your world of no-contraception no-abortion will lead to a STEEP increase in number of unwanted births.


What you means to say is, the Catholic church can legitimize their discrimination by accepting doctrines that say discrimination is OK. Of course, nobody expects Catholicism to the be pillar of equality in the Christian arena. I mean, they don't even let fellow Christians take communion with them.

Isn't it a bit ignorant to assume this to be an absolute truth considering there's no scriptural basis for it?

No, what you're saying we need to do is education woman about the choices and then tell them which one is correct according to your personal religious preferences, and expect them to approve of your critique of their life.

Sorry to break it to you, but when you're against gays getting civil unions, you're "against" gays. It means you don't want them to have equal rights and privledges according to sexual preference, which is exactly why the Catholic church is against Gay unions.


Yes, and abortion is the easiest in most cases, not a 9 month pregnancy and birth.

Of course, I'm not sure where you stand. I'm coming to the conclusion that you're pro-life, but want government regulations to remain pro-choice. If this is true, that's fine. Just know that the Catholic doctrine on when life starts isn't scriptural.

FallDragon, you're wrong on so many counts I don't know where to start!

Unfortunately I don't have the time to provide all the evidence that the Catholic Church provided for me when I was learning all of this stuff.

I do need to say this though:
This is VERY offensive, so be careful who you say this to. Unfortunately, this is a straight case of ignorance of what communion is in the Catholic Church. And how does the Catholic Church discriminate? Against who?
Anyway, I have a friend that was in my RCIA class that really struggles with the communion thing because his family would not be able to take communion at his wedding. This is very difficult to explain fully, but the reason Catholics "don't let" other Christians take communion is because we believe that the Eucharist is the true body and blood of Christ. ALL other christian religions do not believe this, so they are not in communion with our beliefs. Therefore, they cannot partake of it.

So many people argue that there is no scriptural basis for anything that Catholics believe. Instead of fleshing out every argument for you, I have to direct you to the Catachism of the Catholic Church. It fleshes out all that we believe and provides scriptural basis. I doubt that you'll bother because you're already attacking my beliefs anyway.

Obviously you didn't read through ANY of my previous posts, because you'd find that I was very careful in trying to avoid pressing my beliefs on anyone. It's ALWAYS they're choice. All I can do is pray and then simply disagree if they make a decision I don't believe in.

There is a growing problem of relativism in many nations that leads to many problems. People that believe in something should be able to speak about it and fight for their beliefs. Relativism causes people to be afraid of voicing their beliefs because of the risk of offending someone else or being forced to defend their beliefs and possibly shake their faith. People don't realize that without shaking your faith now and then it never grows. That's sad.

I'm not really afraid of your arguments because they boil down to personal attacks and ignorance toward my faith. For the record, throwing Freakonomics at me doesn't add much validity to your arguments. A study done between 1991 to 2001 has so many other variables involved that it might not be completely accurate. I haven't read it but based on what you say it sounds like it may draw conclusions based on what the doc believes is true.
Plus, contraceptives go WAY farther back than 1991. Look at the big picture.

I don't really know how to respond to this other than being offended. I think I even said that I want desperately for gays to have equal rights under the law. It is hopelessly discriminatory to deny people rights based on sexual preference.
PLEASE read my other posts on this one page back. I think you'll find that you're putting words in my mouth (which I don't appreciate) and that you're completely missing my point on the subject!

Wrong. See above posts.

Hmmm Religion what it means to me...Well I don't know. From what i've read, viewed and seen, Religion looks more like a negative than a positive. People die, kill and commit acts that are heinous, under the name of God. However, that doesn't mean in any way i'm against Religion or God...

Me personally, im going through a spiritual crisis, and have been for two years. Ever since my Grandmother died...the fear of death is very huge for me. I fear death, because I feel I truly do not know what will happen after I die. Will I continue existing? Will I not? I was raised Catholic, and I should know that my soul will continue on...but I have a very big fear, that it was...not real. So my conflict is all about death, and that in turn, puts me in a spiritual crisis.

Religiously...I feel empty, there's nothing there and I don't think I want a religion per se, but more of a spirituality. I don't think it's right or fair to put down other spiritual or relgious groups, and claim you have the only right and true religion or whatever. I don't think Buddhists and Native Americans who are clearly in touch with...something that is in this world or beyond it. They feel something within themselves and with the entire planet, and to put them as "blasphemers" is something I just find cruel and unfair.

I guess what i'm trying to say is...I know there is a God, or some high being out there. However right now, my heart and spirit is still searching for it. I want to find the peace, love and harmony. I guess that's but a journey of life.

(from the first page)

Maybe we should start a thread "On the Existence of God" and work our way up to these issues...

Women don't have an equal chance in moving up the catholic ranks. That's called sexual discrimination. They don't want gays to be able to get civil unions. That's also called sexual discrimination.

I'm sorry, I had assumed that since you're Catholic, you believe things that the Church does, such as the corruption of America by way of gay marriage. So, to be clear, you think gays should be allowed civil unions? You do realize that the Catholic church is against this?



Correct. But I don't really care. Those are doctrines of Catholicism, not scriptural. What foundation do they have? None. All they cause is division, and make fellow Christians feel that Catholicism is an exclusive, elitist community. You think Jesus is up in Heaven going, "Good job guys! Don't let that other 80% of Christianity take communion with you! They're a bunch of bums who don't know the true meaning of it."??

Ahh here we go with the classic "I can't really provide any scriptures for you to prove what I believe, but I'm going to cry about you attacking my beliefs." Yes I'm attacking them. Boo hoo. How about you provide ONE SCRIPTURE that says life starts at conception, and then you'll be able to attack MY beliefs!

You seem to be missing the difference between the word "pressing" and the word "forcing." You DO want to press your beliefs on others, but you're not going to force them to by putting a gun to their head. If given the option to talk to someone facing abortion, you would say the correct, spiritually holy choice is having the baby. This is what's called pressing your beliefs on someone.

Actually, hardly any of my post was a personal attack. I asked for statistical evidence of what you say, and for scriptures/verses to back up your beliefs. Instead you provide neither, and start crying about how mean I'm being to you. Put out or get out.

I find it ironic that you spend a good deal of your reply complaining about how I'm attacking your beliefs, and then here you say that it's a GOOD thing. Nice hypocrisy.

According to Philosophy:
1.)"It is always morally wrong to deliberatly (knowingly and willingly) kill (force death upon by an act of violence) an innocent (not deserving of death - has done nothing to justify being killed) person."

2.)"An unborn (developing) human being (product of human conception) is an innocent person"

<!--Argument for the 2nd statement-->
So, is a fetus a person?
Ok,
Adult,
Teenager,
Child,
Infant,
Fetus,
-these are all stages of development of ONE entity.

<!--Conclusion-->
So, if we can argue that the deliberate killing of an innocent person is ALWAYS wrong, and that a fetus is ALWAYs a person, then abortion is ALWAYS morally wrong.

<src="peterkreeft.com">

Agreed. Which is why philosophers and moralists disagree with each other on whether or not a fetus is a "person," where person is used in describing a human with a consciousness.

Right, but according to the dictionary, a person is a "human body." Not a "human body ONLY with a consciousness."

I guess these arguments could really go on forever.

I've addressed this in another post. It's way too complicated to explain here.

I do believe in all things the Catholic church does. It was part of my vows during confirmation. The official position of the church is that we love gay people, but simply cannot condone their sexual actions. As they say, it is their cross to bear. So therefore, I can CERTAINLY believe that they should have equal rights, I just don't agree or believe in their behavior. That's my cross to bear.



This post proves that you aren't reading my posts. Why bother to continue? Still, I feel the need . . .
I don't feel elitist at all. "We believe in ONE, HOLY, Catholic, and Apostolic church" is what we say in the Nicene creed. Catholic also means "universal". We want others to join our church (just like every other faith) but have to respect other's faiths while remaining true to our own. Respecting is a BIG part of being Catholic. I think a lot of people have a lot of misconceptions about Catholics, and there are many stereotypes related to it. They had to come from somewhere, but I think people take it to an extreme. Obviously Catholics do this too. All I can do is be the best role model Catholic I can be. It's very hard to live like Jesus, especially when our beliefs are under attack.



I'm busy. I don't have time to hunt through the Bible to prove something to somebody who won't read it and just brush it off. Plus, I'm new at this. I'm still reading the Bible. Answers for this, again, can be found in teh Catechism. If you're truly interested, go to B&N and read a random line. There's an index.



I argue that you are pressing your disbelief onto me. Think about that. Please. It's a major problem these days.

My beliefs are personal. You're attacking my beliefs, therefore it's personal. BTW, where is your scripture. Perhaps if I had something to focus on. If not, it's a little overwhelming to have to counterpoint every point you made via scripture. It's a lot to ask. Too busy, sorry.

The relativism comment was an attempt to address the other side of the argument and bring up what I (and the Pope and a secular Italian Head of Senate) feel is a major problem with society today. Book: Without Roots.
Sorry you misunderstood it.

But the Church does not believe they should have equal rights, because the Church doesn't think they should be allowed civil unions. How do you respond to this?

It doesn't matter whether you feel the Catholic church is respectful, and it doesn't matter whether the Church feels itself to be respectful. Catholicism, no matter the reason, still excludes other Christians from partaking in communion. My point is that, no matter what your explanations say, you're still excluding Christians in something that all other Christian communities aren't exclusive on, and therefore making them feel like you're an elitist group. The Church's stance against civil unions for gays make the gay community feel threatened by the Chuch. You can have as many explanations and reasons as you like, but you need to pay more attention to the reality that others see, the reality of what the Church says and does to other organizations. The Church offends people not because people believe in stereotypes, but because Christians go to Catholic services and feel excluded, and gays to Catholic services and feel unwelcome and misunderstood. This is the reality of the Church and it's policies.

Well, I'd be worried if I were you. Not being able to provide any verses for something you have such deep convictions in will make you look like a blind follower.

Yes, if by pressing you mean I am presenting my views of what's correct, and why your views are wrong. What's the big deal? Besides, you ignored my point that you DO press your beliefs on abortion, you just don't force them. There's a difference.

My scripture? My argument was that no scripture exists supporting the idea of a soul existing as soon as the sperm joins the egg. The burden of scripture is on you, since you're the one claiming the Bible says something about it.

As for my other requests for proof, they concerned these two comments you made:

"I did notice that you mentioned that abortions do not affect society though. The value of human life in a society directly affects how that society acts toward each other."

and

"Sex crimes have escalated since the advent of contraception."

So, in order for me to believe what you're saying, you'll need to give me some proof. Otherwise, why should I believe you?

Double Post:
Well by that line of logic you can say that a dead human is a "person." The argument mainly revolves around the idea of when souls or consciousness enters the human body, because without a soul or consciousness, what would it mean to be a person? Nothing.

For me, it was faith who keep me going through the hard path of my life...

The church is actually undefined about this right now. They are against the term gay marriage because it is a contradiction of terms. In the church, a marriage is always between a man and a woman. Society says that this may not be true. I believe differently. My point is I want civil discrimination is ended by giving them equal rights under the law. The church isn't discriminating against gays, we just can't condone their actions because we don't believe in it.

This is just a misunderstanding. Don't be so offended.

I know the Catechism pretty well (I only converted this May) and was swayed during the year long class that I went to of my own volition that becomeing Catholic was the right thing for ME. It isn't for everybody, though we'd like it to be.

The old "I'm right you're wrong" argument, eh? Good one. I got your "argument" about pressed and forced. If I believe something strongly, shouldn't I feel obligated to speak my mind? Isn't that my right in this country? THAT one hasn't been stripped from me yet!


I WILL get back to you on this. Just not now.


Isn't this just trolling at some point? He's just arguing with everyone saying they're wrong with no real argument besides that he thinks that they are wrong. Hmmm . . .
Definition please?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll#In_Internet_Forums

A person who enters unknown forums who bashes and insults forum members with unfounded arguments, or anyone that enters any sort of internet community for the sole purpose of harassing others is often referred to as a troll.

Ah, I thought I was right. He's on the border here, IMO . . .

So debate is considered harassing?

When it crosses lines and is mostly one-sided, yes.

Seriously guys learn to read first post and make another thread for the debate. This is not what the thread is for obviously.

Anyhow I would say I am a gnostic that don't believe any force debscribed in human religion started all this. This being this reality coming from nothing.

Go ask your priest if God thinks gay civil unions are OK. He'll say no.



I'm not offended. I'm just telling how other people I know have reacted to the Church.


Yes, it's perfectly fine for you to press your beliefs on anybody. Everybody does it all the time. It's what we call debate. I just wanted you to stop pretending that you don't press you're beliefs on people.

Anyway if you have nothing more to contribue, I'm done.

You would think, that after thousands of hours of debate, people (namely philos. scien. etc.) would come to a conclusion, but I don't think that's possible.
Crazy world!

What would we call the thread? FallDragon v. Shadowlink?

Religion has defined a moral construct for me to a certain degree. I know of my guilty conscience that aligns with the religious teachings. However, I really don't follow religion. It's mainly the practitioners that get to me. There's this whole "I'm more knowledgeable and better than you" attitude stemming here and there in almost every sect I face. I guess it's safe to say I'd rather practice religion peacefully and alone, but even the teachings show contrasting suggestions and that puts me off.

In the end, yeah, the moral construct is there for me...but that's about it. I don't want to follow the other stuff that it also presents. I actually just want to live a less brain-draining life, which is already hard enough as it is. All this spiritual stuff is way too complex to me.

I am a Christian and my beliefs have helped me a lot. I have prayed for friends and family members, success in college exams, and a lot more. It really has helped me. I pray for others more than I pray more myself too sometimes. I love my beliefs :)

First I become a confused hypocritic, then I become a cynical judgemental self-righteous cock tease.

Admitting should be the first step after becoming a Christian and hiding it.

Why do I feel ashamed of being a Christian? Sigh. What's worse is that I try to listen to both ends of the spectrum and I had taken a world religions philsophy course which is very informative and covered every religion known to the public. And when I do understand, I still am stubborn in my own conflicted beliefs. Its like I'm trying to understand how it is to be black when I'm born white. I assume its impossible to grow out of your own religion when its all around you.

If anything... it taught me a lot about people and their nature at least their true nature in general and how religion can be a culture clash for some. It still doesn't help me though. But I certainly don't recall any religion devoutees saying it is easy to be a devout follower.

I don't believe in any of it. Its got too much contradictions and questions to be enough for me to say that God, or a god, exists.

As a result, all Ican do is be the best that I can be for my family, friends, etc.,

I am a Christian. I am not religious. In other words, I don't just believe in God, but I go to church, help out at church, do outreach for youth, etc. There is a big difference in faith, and being religous however... true faith is when you "want" to believe in God or whatever you may call him.. it's when you have a passion for what you stand up for and actually stem a relationship with God.
Being religious is deceiving... anyone can be religious - all they do is go to church once a week, be really nice to people, and think it's all fine.... just being religious is the biggest problem in today's society because it is the "easy" way out.. anyone can do it... but its not Biblical.

Religion is believed to come from many differen origins. A Marxist idea of religion is that it is based on controlling economy - such that it is controlled by the wealthy and advertised amongst the poor.. etc (read about Marx beliefs on Religion) Some believe it is stemmed from human fears - such is so that we "create" religion to cope with our insecurities and fears of the world we live in... As for my personal belief - I don't believe in Christianity is one of these "religions" being from people (manmade) etc... I believe that it is theological truth that we are both exposed to and hidden from (thus explaining why we don't have "all" the answers) I believe that God hides some of theology from us so that there is that aspect of "believing" or "faithfulness" that must be involved... We have to believe - God doesn't want "religious" Christians..

Additional Spam:
Why does God exist?
I use both the theories of "Evolution" and Christianity to explain why there is a God.

Think about this- your evolution-believing friend tells you that everything in this world (humanity, resources, animals, "creation" as its called) all stems from the "Big Bang" - Yes, and this is usually where the Christian will counter-act with a few Bible verses, etc..
But how about stopping there instead and asking the evolutionist a simple question - "Why? Where did this single ball of harnessed energy containing all the contents of the "Big Bang" come from?.. Looking at physics - we understand that our world consists of 4 dimensions: longitude, latitude, altitude, and time. Time is the important factor here as it opens the doors for motion, speed, movement, etc. According to the Big Bang theory - time is considered one of the things harnessed within this single force at the beginning of our universe. Now think about this - If "Time" is within this thing called a singularity, then what is the catalyst, or "cause" of the actual "Big Bang"? If time is non-existent around this "singularity" then there can be no movement, impulse, or action possible to start the infinite chain of events in which we call our universe!... There has to be a "supernatural" power - God must be included in the equation in order for evolution to work..
Another perspective - the idea that our universe is based on random actions - is pretty much retarded to believe in. According to mathematician Fred Hoyle, the probability of the formation and evolution of one cell would be about 10 ^20 . (1/1000000000000000000000th i think thats right) basically, we would need all the 2000 enzymes needed for life just randomly present on this earth at that exact spot of the one cell in order for that cell to evolve successfully. It is just as comparible as placing a bunch of screws, a wrist band, a battery, a piece of glass, a minute hand, an hour hand, and a seconds hand, all into a wooden box, shaking it up, and getting a working watch in the outcome.. Stuff like that "is" technically possible - but I'm just sorry-I really can't believe it happened on its own... there must be a Creator!!