I can see where you are coming from on this, but in the long run, prostitution is just like every other single job you see in this country. You use your body and your mind to make money. You are providing a service in which you use any given amount of your five senses to paying customers. How you do it makes no difference at all.

Couches are readily made available to stores all across the country, that's why you never have to go anywhere outside of your town unless you REALLY want a specific couch. Same thing with a strip club, do you ever hear someone say that they need to go states away to see women dance naked? No, you don't.

As for the other analogy, I've never wished for laws to be changed either, but I HAVE wished that there were more colleges nearby that I could train in video game design, BUT, unfortunately there are just more OPPORTUNITIES to be a cashier and manager in my town as it is.

I'm not too entirely sure what your work history is, but if you are involved in any company where heavy lifting, or mental stress MIGHT be a factor that could hinder your performance, the entire first day of your new job is spent getting information shoved down your throat on 'how to be safe in the work place' and constant help lines to deal with your stress. The only problem is, while these programs are actually beneficial, if you ever EVER have to resort to using them, you usually end up fucking yourself in the end, depending on how, and I'll get to this in a second, corrupt your company is.

For the most part, people with any position of 'power' so to speak can easily be corrupted. I've had GREAT bosses before, and I've had bosses that can only be described as satanic in every way. What you are trying to say is that the 'wrong kind of people' don't fit into your moral code. The fact of the matter is, legalizing prostitution would make it safer, if even if it was for the simple fact that BOTH PARTIES would be consenting to the act. Sure, said prostitute may have to spread her legs for not the most attractive guy, but at least she knows she's doing it to get paid, and not that she'll end up getting pimp smacked if she doesn't bring her pimp enough money for the night.

I'm saying I wouldn't want my loved ones being forced to do back breaking or dangerous work for shitty pay, and even shittier treatment. If my daughter decides that, as an adult, she wants to get paid for spreading her legs for men night after night, I can't do a thing about it. That's her decision and the best thing I can hope for is that at that time, she is in a safe, stable environment in which she can work her craft.

Wouldn't you?

Sorry, I really have to disagree that prostitution is like every other single job you see in this country. I actually find it to be extraordinarily different for a variety of reasons. I do see your point, I just don't agree with it.

And yes, government regulation would set up the framework for a safer working environment for prostitutes. Unfortunately, even in places where it is legal, people continue to break the law and sex workers are still being mistreated. This is the major reason why half the red-light district in Amsterdam was being shut down. (I haven't followed that story in months, anyone up to date?) No matter how bad it gets at wal-mart, people aren't going to force you to work without pay. You won't get threatened of physically abused if you choose not to comply. I don't think we should be so quick to legalize prostitution until the places that allow it have fully sorted out their problems with it. (Actually, I don't think we should legalize it ever)

I have to agree with YouMad again, at least for the most part. The only way I see prostitution infringing on the rights of uninvolved people is the shame it brings on family and friends. It also spreads some disease, there's no denying that...but I haven't seen any statistics on that. I can stand behind the "burden to society" platform, but I'm fully aware that it is not a conclusive argument nor is not a universal belief.

Well, I'm also against the recreational use of certain narcotics even though it only affects the user. You may argue that an addict with a costly and reprehensible drug problem can be a burden on a family and a community, but you can make the same argument about a prostitute or their clients. Likewise, Ponzi schemes only affect those looking to invest money. Nobody is forced to invest. But I still feel it is morally wrong to deceive people that way. Should it be illegal to lie or deceive? or is it just immoral? Hmm, both probably.

Should it be illegal to have sex for money? Or is it just immoral? We all have our answers to both questions, but the arguments from both sides are strong enough that neither side will earn a clear victory. At least we know what the other side is thinking.

Despite the fact I see that this entire area was your 'final thought' so I don't expect a response, I do hope you realize what you just said above. The Red-Light district, for what I'm to understand, has been around for YEAAAARS and for the most part, due to it's legality has never stirred much controversy other than 'zomg it's prostitution.' But look at what you just said...people are being mistreated, and when the law is broken (when abuse/whatever is brought up) places get shut down...JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER JOB/EMPLOYER IN AMERICA.

Um...Okay...do you realize that this ENTIRE time we are not talking about legalizing prostitution so that all the pimps in the crib mahn (drop it like its hawt) can have a free ticket to bitch slap their women if they don't bring in enough dough? We are NOT talking about the places right now having a free ride. We are talking about making it legal so that RULES AND REGULATIONS can be instilled for entrepreneurs that WISH to open up brothels/enact in business run prostitution can do so, but have to follow a specific guideline, and rules that apply to human services. Which I will outline in the next part right here:

As much as I want to sling insults for this first sentence here, I won't. I just hope you realize how ridiculous that first sentence of yours is, and apologize for it later. Just as Wal-mart can not be held responsible for any 'stigmas' viewed on the people who shop there (generally poor, dirty, nasty people only shop at wal-mart etc. etc.) prostitutes and businesses like that can not be held responsible for any 'shame' that a family feels if their daughter works there.

As for diseases...this just goes to show you that you have never, EVER worked in a place that you are prone to get injured or have the possibility for blood transfusions to take place. If prostitution had OSHA on their side, holy shit...STD's from prostitution would probably see a huge decline...and that is for the simple fact that guidelines and steps WOULD BE (not could be) WOULD BE enforced to minimize the transfer of STDs. This could come in the form of every paying customer needing to produce a clean bill of health (STD free) to always using a condom no matter what the sexual act involved is.

The last time I checked, you invested money to make money. The risk is that your investment may not fall through/the people you invest in may not succeed. I believe what you are talking about are when people intentionally steal the money that were invested in them, thus they WILLINGLY took money that wasn't theirs, and that is breaking the law. Nobody is going to force you to go see a prostitute, and unless said prostitute only becomes a prostitute to try and seduce ONE MAN THAT SHE MET ON A BUS ONE DAY into leaving his wife, that is the only situation that I can see a prostitute wanting to deceive, and if it came to that point, there is something wrong with the woman, and not the industry.

And unfortunately the other side is thinking that despite the fact that if prostitution was legalized, for the most part, that profession would become a safer place, they would still find it 'evil and morally wrong' just due to mostly religious beliefs nowadays (hell back in Greek times it was all the rage, and not frowned on at all), they would rather keep their morality in check and judge people rather than wanting people in a safe, secure location to do what they want to do.

As RR posted above, he'd not want his daughter in prostitution, but woudln't mind if his neighbor daughter did...I'm sure that if said daughter was in that business, he'd still want her to work in a safe environment.

Take a look at it this way Killer...World of Warcraft has caused deaths in the world...a video game has caused deaths. Mainly in Korea, but does that mean that we should ban it? Make it illegal?

See, you part from the assumption that people want to be prostitutes. That may or may not be the case. Why do you think that it is?

The point is, I don't think you have any data to back up that claim, but here is some to back up mine: In the paper "Prostitution in Nevada," Richard Symanski writes about the brothels and prostitutes in a state with legalized prostitution. The rules in Nevada are extremely stringent and concerned with health codes. Symanski found that most of the current prostitutes were previously streetwalkers, waitress, call-girls, or university students. Why do you think that women in respectable, well-paying jobs aren't in that list? The main reason these prostitutes give for entering the profession is "quick financial gain." He does write, however, that normalizing prostitution does away with many of the present health problems associated with the profession. Here is a link to the article:

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2562357

I understand that becoming a prostitute is a way to gain power for a lot of women down in their luck, but isn't it a bit ironic that it involves using a patriarchal system that has put them in that position in the first place? That is, males have exploited women for a long time. How can women get out of that position? Why, exacerbate the problem! Make yourself an object! Work within the power structure that men have cemented for you. Maybe some women DO want to be prostitutes, but I would contend it is because of their politico/economic place in society. I find that system in itself criminal. So, to meet you halfway, I have absolutely no problem with women wanting to be prostitutes and doing it legally, for whatever reason it is they cite. But I do wish that instead of making it easier for girls to become prostitutes, we were working on giving every person a dignified and prosperous place in our society.

Second, I am not entirely sure that religious beliefs are really what is driving opposition to prostitution, at least not unilaterally. I, for one, am simply concerned with people being exploited. I agree with you, working for large retailers sucks (I used to work at Best Buy, and I am never going back). But on the other hand, I feel like prostitution opens up a much bigger can of worms. Yes, people sell their bodies for manual labor in the construction industry, but that rarely involves an intimate, powerful practice. Sex is serious business (:tpg:).

Wow. This is an extremely ignorant thing to say! I wonder if you think America (or at least the liberal parts) isn't racist anymore.

Hey Grail, I think you understand a lot of my rantings pretty well, I think you're just flabbergasted that anyone actually thinks the way I do.

You make a great point in pointing out that the system is apparently working in Amsterdam when they finally start shutting down the places that need to be shut down. I'd be happier if the system worked faster though. The legality of prostitution is what caused the industry to grow so big that it couldn't be effectively policed. Lives have been ruined and there is no guarantee that 1. All sex workers are being treated well now and 2. It won't happen again. As you mentioned, the red light district has been around for YEARS and during many of those years people ignored the laws and still exploited sex workers in heinous ways. Those rules and regulations are a good thing, but they aren't 100% enforced. Not even close as it turns out. If there wasn't any prostitution to begin with it wouldn't be a problem. Both of us are naive though; me for hoping that prostitution can be eliminated altogether, and you for thinking that laws will guarantee equal and satisfactory protection for every sex worker. Whether it is deserved or not, there is an unsavory element attached to the sex industry that affects how it is run.

My argument about how prostitution affects uninvolved people was SUPPOSED to be weak. Sorry I didn't make that clearer. Read again and you'll (hopefully) see I was actually agreeing with YouMad that prostitution does NOT infringe on other people's rights. At the same time I still defend my position to endorse moral legislation. Poorly stated and confusing so you have my apologies. (See, I apologized, sorta) You can disagree with my 'perception' of moral legislation (i.e. Ponzi, etc.) but the real question is whether or not ANY moral legislation is appropriate. I say "yes", many others here have stated "no".

I'm sorry, but with regards to disease I can't see much of a comparison between prostitutes and...well, any other industry. Despite my strong disagreement, my stance against prostitution is not really based on that. I'm a more of a moral elitist than a concerned medical practitioner.

I've heard the argument about "I don't want my daughter involved, but let's make it safe for other people's daughters". By and large, nobody likes prostitution. Everyone wants to keep the ones they love away from it. In this particular case I understand, but strongly disagree, with the notion of legalizing something bad just so those poor souls who do partake in it can be safer. I'd much rather keep anyone from doing it in the first place. I'm aware that such a goal is unrealistic, but it's still worth the fight in order to reduce the number of people involved. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but at the same time I don't think anyone can conclusively state that myself and others are clearly in the wrong.

I'm not morally opposed to video games like I am to prostitution. I believe when you play games the way they are intended to be used it's a benign diversion. But as you mentioned, even something like video games can be abused to a point where it is sad, disgusting, and reprehensible. By contrast, prostitution (in my eyes at least) is sad, disgusting, and reprehensible right from the start.

The religious opposition to prostitution is obvious. But as mentioned, opposition also comes from a huge yet separate population of diverse thinkers. It is unfair to categorize anyone as "endorsing unsafe working conditions" or "against privacy rights". Usually it's people like me that make irresponsible broad sweeping statements like... "You oppose prostitution? Oh, so you WANT sex workers to be exploited, diseased, and physically harmed?" First of all, I don't want there to be ANY sex workers. Second, it should be obvious at this point that the issue is far more complicated than that.

I think most of America is very racist. Not even a Harvard Professor in a beautiful historic Cambridge home is safe from American Racism.

Yes, but not all of them require becoming a prostitute to lead a finnancially stable life. THAT is objectification; that is what I am concerned with. But you are funny though, real funny. You got internet humor down, I am real impressed.

I don't know what you do for a living, but I guess you do it pro bono. I kind of admire your selflessness. The rest of us are mostly whores, though. We sell ourselves and our talents for the petty reward of filthy lucre. How foul it is that society has driven us to this!

There is no practical distinction between "I work as a coal miner because it's the best job available to me" and "I work at a brothel because it's the best job available to me". Coal mining, like sex work, can be an immensely dangerous job if the proper precautions are not taken, but does anyone propose it should be illegal to work as a coal miner? Of course not! Instead, laws are put into place to make coal-mining a safer profession.

The arguments in play here seem to revolve entirely around the notion that using one's body to make a living abruptly becomes implicitly monstrous the moments one drops one's drawers. Why? What is so implicitly amoral about the vagina or the penis relatively to the arms or the back? Yes, fucking for a living can give you diseases if you don't take precautions. Are we to outlaw DOCTORS on this basis? After all, they touch sick people every day! HOW DANGEROUS!

I don't see a lot of male ex-lawyers or corporate CEOs becoming strippers or prostitutes either. Maybe you're on to something!

Then I wonder why black people use racist systems that marginalize them in the first place. Isn't it better for them to not work within the power structure that whites have made for them? They are only exacerbating the problem with racism.

Certainly not all prostitutes are that, but I think a great deal of them are. the article I posted (the first of any sort of EVIDENCE that has been brought up between the both of us) cites that virtually all prostitutes in a state in which the practice is legal 1) used to be hobos or in low-paying jobs 2) mostly fuck TRUCKERS. Come on man! You know people wouldn't go with TRUCKERS for fun.

What I mean by being "down on their luck" is more than just being out of a job. There are material, political, and economic reasons for the way modern society is structured. And sometimes certain groups get the short end of the stick. There is a reason why African Americans make up a disproportionate amount of the prison population, and why women in certain urban areas are more likely to become prostitutes. Now, the way to solve these problems is not to KILL the blacks in jail or allow the women to become prostitutes, but to focus on better education, better jobs, and a reformulation of certain aspects of American society.

Do you know why she thinks you're a misogynist?

It's because you're talking about allowing grown-ass women to perform a profession.

Yeah, but those are massive societal changes. Changes we probably will never see.

If prostitution were legal, imagine all the women who would be safer and probably more able to take themselves and their kids to a better part of town, or at the very least, a slightly better position in life. Their kids could possibly have the opportunities their parents did not, and in turn, begin to set in motion those very changes you spoke of.

That shit will not happen with a job at McDonald's.

Well, what some of the African Americans I know do is work within the system to highlight its racist aspects and to speak against it because it is what allows them to reach the most people. Black academics or socially-conscious rappers are great examples.

It is quite a nuanced position, though, and you are on to something by pointing out that it feeds off of the problem it is trying to solve.

Pang, I agree with you completely. I, however, have a problem with ALL exploitative careers. I should hope that in the future both coal mining, industry work, and prostitution can be left behind.

I do think, on the other hand, that being a prostitute may subject someone to particular and unique psychological stresses that other professions can't touch. But maybe not.


Alright, then I am a misogynist. Will you agree with me, then, that because the business community has a very limited number of female, black, or minority CEOs it is racist, misogynist, and hateful?

It is not I who is doing the allowing, but the US Government, which, by the way, allows GROWN ASS PEOPLE to do or not things/professions all the time.

Am I also onto something by saying a nigga gotta eat?

Cuz that was what I was aiming for

as an aside, do you think prostitution is the only (or even the most dangerous) way the patriarchy marginalizes women

I would say that white color professions over-represented by men is far worse tbh but I'll be damned if I can think of a way to change that by not participating

you idiot

I do not allow you to continue this charade of intelligence. Rip off your mask and post as you truly are, trainable.

Additional Spam:
how does it not allow grown-ass adults to do things

I mean I googled crime statistics right now but they look pretty high so.........................

I have no idea what the fuck you are saying, so I will just stop replying.

I see what you are saying, and there is some merit to it. I think, however, that prostitution may be a little more hurtful to those in it than other careers. Do you think it would be a better alternative if women could lift themselves out of poverty without becoming prostitutes?

Why do you think it is the requirement of a person in a marginalized demographic to heroically rise up and throw off the shackles of their oppression when all they want is to pay their bills and raise their family like a normal fucking person?

why is it a requirement of women of little means to be martyrs to a battle you imposed on them?

And also why on earth are you comparing yourself to the US Government?

A: The federal government doesn't disallow prostitution AFAIK. There are laws governing interstate travel or immigration for the purpose of prostitution, but I'm pretty sure the FBI doesn't give a tin shit if you invite some dude into your house and charge him $100 when he leaves. Local authorities will be very interested, but not the Fed.

B: Name any other victimless profession that is broadly outlawed in the majority of the USA (and no, doing a job that may subject you to certain stresses does not make you a victim).

Killer Pineapple got away with this due to the fact that he can actually NOT make himself look like a complete idiot.

Do you know that this god damn country was FOUNDED on fucking jobs like coal mining, industry work and other shit like that? EVERY GOD DAMN JOB in this fucking world is exploitative of their workers. It doesn't matter what the fuck it is.

Work is supposed to be that, WORK. Many, many people have died on the job for various reasons. You keep ignoring the fact that prostitution is just like EVERY OTHER SINGLE JOB IN EXISTENCE. People EXPLOIT prostitutes more because women who work the street regardless of choice, or being forced into it, because it's a lose lose situation for them right now. They can't go to the cops because they will be arrested for prostitution, and if they say they don't want to fucking do it, they get beat or worse the majority of the time.

You can't just close your fucking eyes and pretend that if prostitutes don't exist that the problem will fix itself. You want prostitution to go bye bye? That's perfectly fine and fucking dandy, but how about until it somehow magically disappears, you show a little bit of compassion and WANT them to be in a safer environment instead of looking down at them like they are the lowest rung of scum on societies ladder, you fucking prick.

You are a fucking child. Get the fuck off these forums right now. HIGH SCHOOL produces fucking just as many unique psychological stresses. If a fucking woman (or man) decides that she wants to make money by spreading her legs, and it turns out that she doesn't like it come a month or two into the position, if it is legalized, she can fucking hand in her TWO WEEK NOTICE. That is not how it works right now. She complains, she gets bitch slapped for it.

It's often I find those that 'take the moral high ground' on discussions like these, tend to be the ones that spit on human rights the most. It's sickening.

Because I think the world is an extremely fucked up place and it would be better if we confronted some of these problems head-on instead of lived as if it's none of our business.


When did I say that I required anyone to do what I say? All I have been saying is that I wish people would have better opportunities so that would not have to resort to what I consider extreme degradation. Maybe it is not as bad as I paint it. In the end, it does not matter, it is not up to me to decide, is it?

Where did I say I am like the US Government? All I said is ultimately the entity that allows or disallows prostitution is government, and not me. What I think or care about doesn't really matter in this context.

Maybe prostitution ought to be legal, but that means jackshit. The government is the only entity that can do anything about it.

The fact that this country was founded on those jobs doesn't make them any better. And you got my point exactly! All jobs are more or less exploitative. Shouldn't we do something to change that?

I understand that is cool or whatever to get angry, cynical, and swear out the ass on the internet, but all I have been saying is that I wish people would have other opportunities before becoming prostitutes.

IF people had good economic opportunities and THEN became prostitutes, then it would be a matter of choice. But most of the time that is not the case.

But, I will say it again, I am all for LEGALIZED PROSTITUTION, as long as people are given a fair chance at leading their lives a different way first.

I find it interesting that you find illegal prostitution a more serious human rights violation than women being forced to have sex to survive.

I see where you are coming from though; and I agree that perhaps prostitute's lives would be better as it is with the implementation of certain laws. My point, however, is that sooner or later we will have to get down to the bottom to the bottom of the problem, and not just skim it with regulation.

A: point taken.

B: I assume teaching people how to build dirty bombs, drugs, or other harmful substances would land people in jail if they did it out in the open. The information itself is not illegal, we all know that, but that does not mean that the US or state government would respect your right to disseminate it.

You assume it would be illegal to openly advise people on the practice of producing & using drugs? Why would you assume that?

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