How many civilian casualties were there during the U.S. war against Afghanistan? How many innocent civilians, do you think, have lost their lives during the attack of NATO forces in Kosovo? In war, there are casualties. Nothing can change that. The finest army in the world, having as much time as it needs, choosing its targets as carefully as possible, will never be able to avoid casualties.

The bombing of the airport, and the blockade on Lebanon, serve to stop (or at least to thin) the smuggling of arms from Iran and Syria. As for the dairy factory, I’m not familiar with this specific incident, but considering the fact that Hezbollah is hiding rockets and missiles in residential areas, mosques, and other innocent-looking places, it doesn’t seem that far-fetched that the Hezbollah is also using factories to hide weaponry and ammunition.

I obviously wasn’t referring to you, TonyDaTigger. And I really do appreciate the support :) …

I wasn’t comparing our actions to the Hezbollah’s. I was saying that innocent civilians also suffer on this side of the border. Also, if you read carefully, you’ll see that I was clearly stating that the Hezbollah is targeting civilians IN CONTRAST to the IDF who does NOT target civilians. IDF targets Hezbollah terrorists and Hezbollah weaponry. The Hezbollah is using civilians as live shields, and that’s why innocent Lebanese are being hurt. Not because IDF specifically targets them.

The Hezbollah’s actions don’t make our actions right. The need to protect our citizens does.

If the UN or the Lebanese government would have done their job, none of this would have happened in the first place. And as Bradylama has stated, the only reason that the world is talking about sending an armed force (that is actually capable of doing something) to the region, is because of the Israeli retaliation. Though, you might understand our skepticism of the effectiveness of such a force, considering the recent (and not so recent) events.

So that's why those three civilian refugee convoys were attacked effectively at once; Hezbollah was using them to smuggle terrorists and weapons out of southern Lebanon, using actual refugees as human shields?

I'm further impressed by this statement. Taken in conjunction with the above comments about Lebanese civilians being used as human shields, it effectively serves to make everything in Lebanon a legitimate target, and let Israel say it isn't targeting civilians in the process.

You mean those refugee convoys that were using the main road to Tyre which which has been under constant bombardment by Israel? That's called walking under the bomb. The roads they were walking on were the targets of the attacks, not the refugees.

No they aren't directly attacking civilians. They aren't bombing these places with the intent of killing Lebanese civilians. Intent is everything here and it's time people start considering this fact rather than simply looking at the situation from such a black and white perspective.

I'm sick of hearing complaints but no solutions. These people ARE hiding weapons in civilian areas. These people ARE using civilians as human shields. These people have less regard for their own countrymen's lives than then the enemy does. Think about that for a moment.

Now, tell me what should Israel do? How can Israel possibly fight again such a tactic without taking civilian lives? I'll tell you what I think, they can't because it is an impossible situation. This outcry to protect innocent life won't solve the situation and it NEVER will. Israel is pursing the only workable option to them now. It's tragic that civilians are going to die because of the actions but it does not make Israel wrong or immoral because you cannot ignore the intentions of Israel. Their intentions are that of protection and survival, not genocide and imperialism.

And Israel decided to attack them while they were on them? Some people just have the worst sense of timing in the world. And are just dumb; I mean, using a road to drive out of a combat zone? Stupid civilians, they should have gone through the back country. It's all their fault they got killed.

Looking at it, it would appear that, at best, Israel and Hezbollah have the same regard for the lives of Lebanese civilians; they simply don't care if they get in the way. Hezbollah demonstrates this by hiding among among Lebanese civilians; Israel by attacking those civilians without remorse to kill Hezbollah.

On a different front, should this same disregard for civilian casualties be applied to Iraq? It certainly makes things easier.

If you'll read what I've said, I haven't been ignoring the intentions of Israel. Israel's intentions have been a very important part of what I've been saying. And Israel's intentions appear inconsistent with their actions.

Of course they are. And if that safety means destroying Lebanon, so be it.

It's hard to say honestly. But lets look at the situation. Plenty of refugees are safely crossing the boarder though side roads. We aren't hearing anything about refugees out in the middle of nowhere being bombed and killed. This road that they were using was a constant target of both shelling and bombing by Israel. And yeah it actually is the fault of the civilians. Walking into the path of a tornado is nobodies fault but your own.

And it's not just a road, but a MAIN ROAD that has been under attack and a one of the many roads Israel has been warning people not to use. So was the target the main road or the civilians? Looking at the situation I would guess the target was the road.



Israel isn't putting these people in a position of harm, Hezbollah is. Hezbollah is forcing Israels hand in this situation. Shooting the hostage the gun wielding manic is hiding behind while firing at you is not considered murder.

Well during the actual start of the operation things were actually very similar to the current situation in Lebanon. We hit many civilian targets of military value and a lot of civilians lost their lives. I don't know where else you think those casualty numbers in Iraq came from. This is the tragic reality that needs to be faced when dealing with an enemy that is willing to hide in the general population hoping it offers them a level of protection.


Can't say I can agree that their actions don't match their intentions. As I stated above, targets have been of military value including the refugees that were killed on a main road. No doubt some missiles have missed their intended targets but even the most precise weapon systems fail once and a while but these don't betray the intentions expressed by Israel.

Countries can be rebuilt. We did it with most of Europe, Japan and are in the process of doing it in Iraq. I already know the rebuttal coming for this one, so before you give it fulfill the 'simple' request that was contently ignored before. What else can Israel do to defeat an enemy that is highly integrated in civilian population of Lebanon? I'm not trying to say the loss of life is tragic or the destruction of the infrastructure in Lebanon is disturbing, but it is time to drop this idealistic bullshit or nothing will ever change. Israels options are limited and I think they are following the best solution available to them.

I can't help but notice that this reply doesn't address or refute the charge that I made at all. I said that Hezbollah didn't care about the lives of Lebanese civilians by hiding among them, and that Israel similarly didn't care about the lives of Lebanese civilians by shooting those same civilians to get at Hezbollah.

You essentially confirmed it for me.

Of course it was. Israel can do no wrong, afterall.

Roads, dairy and tissue paper factories, UN posts...

Again, you've turned to supporting assertions I've made, such as that according to the standards you and ofirov are using, everything in Lebanon is a legitimate target for attack.

Are you instead trying to say that the loss of life is not tragic, and that the destruction of the infratructure is not disturbing?

Which requires more questioning of Israel's intent here. It, and you, say that its purpose is to destroy Hezbollah; it's actions suggest it's intent is to destroy Lebanon. Which same you justify, saying that Hezbollah has integrated itself so highly in Lebanon's civilian population. Again, this supports the position that the standards you use make everything in Lebanon legitimate targets for Israeli attack.

Okay then…

Lord Styphon, what would you have done if you were in our place? How would you ensure the safety of your country's citizens? What’s your solution?

I'm really interested in knowing what would you have done if you were the decision maker in Israel.

UNTIL NOW, the stats are the following: among civilian deaths so far, and not soldiers on both sides:

600 dead civilian in lebanon
19 dead civilian in israel

now consider me stupid but if that isn't targeting civilians in lebanon, then this is not a war...THIS IS A BLOODY MASSACRE!!!!

How many conflicts have their been in the world where innocent people have been killed. It's a war, and the term is called collateral damage.

ofirov just wanted to say im all for israel here... Remember that there's almost no convincing the vastly liberal majority of gff'ers that muslim extremists pose a threat to our way of life. Extremist muslims can't be convinced diplomatically, and one of these days it's going to come down to us or them. I hope you dissarm hesbola enough to equal what it should have been like after the UN ordered it decades ago. (LOL the UN)

Has it occured to you that muslims in the Middle East may well become militant because organised foreign interests pose a threat to their way of life?

Is this some sort of Fox Newsish throwaway troll?

when muslims do the above they are called terrorists, but when it's the US or israel it's collateral damage.

No. When civilians die, those are war crimes. Especially when they are targeted in the first place. Make no mistake, this is a massacre.

No one's responded to this question yet.

There's a whole lot of condemming Israel but no one has presented a REAL and workable solution.

Remember that the ball is IN Hezbollah's and Lebanon's camp.

Hezbollah: We've had enough of Lebanese citizens dying. We will return the two soldiers and stop firing into Israel.

Lebanon: We've had enough of Lebanese citizens dying. Fuck Hezbollah. We have no choice but to shut them down. If necessary, we will ask for outside help in order to make it happen.

The UN has issued an order of cease of fire, an IMMEDIATE one, but the US f888ked it up and put a vito on it then came back afterwards and ordered a cease of fire. SO why put a vito in the first place? This shows you that the US doesn't care at all about Lebanon.

It's not there fault the war had clached. They gave israel 3 days of no firing back and offered an exchange for the lebanese who are old prisonners of war in Israel. But no, it seems that destroying all the bridges in lebanon seems to be the solution to get the soldiers back. And so i give you a proof that they don't give a shit about their soldiers, the 2 soldiers issue was not brought up in the solution gondaliza rice brought to lebanon.

So you are issueing another lebanese civil war right? Because last time someone asked something similar, we were down into a 15 years civil war.

And let me break it to you: Hezbollah is not only a military organisation. They have ministers in the goverment, they have a big part of the lebanese parlement and have 1/4th of the lebanese people with them which is 1 million lebanese citizen with them. So how easy is your solution?

Double Post:
When you tell people: you have until 8 pm to leave your cities, and then when they get in their cars and are ready to leave, you bomb their cars. That's collatoral damage right?

When you throw bombs and tear down homes under childrens heads and the paramedics have to search for the remains of the corpses all over the place that's collatoral damage right?

When they throw bombs that are FORBIDDEN internationally and that are making people die in the most horrifying ways and have corpses that are in a shape like never seen before that is collatoral damage right?

Like Onyx said, they ARE war crimes and they ARE massacres, and they ARE going to be suied for that once this war is done!!!

So if you suckerpunch me, I get up and start kicking your ass, is it really fair for me to not finish the fight?

What the hell? When was the last time Israel and Hezbollah were in direct conflict? 15, 20 years? You sucker punch Israel and then have the gall to ask for a prisoner exchange? Why not SIMPLY DO THE TWO FOLLOWING EASY STEPS?

1.) Return the two captured soldiers.
2.) Cease attacks on Israeel.

I mean, how hard is it to follow two incredibly easy ideas. Here's another one to consider. Don't attack Israel to begin with.

What Hezzbolah did was a declaration of war. Destroying the bridges is to ensure that those soldiers REMAIN in Lebanon.

I don't really care for what Condeleeza Rice is saying or not saying, it's not the US's war.

Well, make a choice. Civil war with yourselves to purge yourself of Hezzbollah or war with Israel? So if you choose to take no self-corrective action, then how can Israel be blamed for anything but self defense?

That only hurt's your case. So if Hezbollah is an elected and recognized government then does that make the people who elected Hezbollah responsible for it's actions?

So if Hezzbollah had chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons they would refrain using them on Israel due to being "forbidden internationally?"

I'm sorry but no one looks pretty after being hit by a rocket or 50mm shells. I'm sure the victims of rocket attacks in Israel don't look all that great either you know.

We're just the ones who will be paying for it.

The UN has also issued an order to disarm Hezbollah and deploy the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon. But obviously, only calls for Israel to back off should be implemented. I mean, it’s not like the Lebanese government has to follow UN resolutions, they can just blame Hezbollah for binding their hands. Convenient, isn't it?

I understand that you want the fire to cease on your side of the border. But the Israeli government’s first responsibility is for the safety of the Israeli citizens, not the Lebanese. If you want peace and security, you have to make sure that no one is attacking us from your side of the border. If not, then don’t blame Israel for trying to ensure its security by itself.

Oh, so it’s not the Hezbollah’s fault. Well, that’s definitely interesting. Is it not the Hezbollah’s fault that on the morning of the 12th of July 2006 they’ve unprovokedly started shelling Israeli military positions and villages as a diversion attack in order to abduct 2 Israeli soldiers. Enlighten me, how is it not their fault?

When did that happen? Hezbollah has shelled Israeli towns and cities since day one of the war. Not a single day has passed without Katyushas being fired into Israeli territory. They did ask for a cease fire, but that's just impudent of them. If they do want to give something, though, I’d start with the 2 soldiers.

The bombardment of bridges has some very strategic value, as was stated before. As for the 2 soldiers, the no negotiations policy is not just for their sake, it’s for the sake of every Israeli soldier and citizen that might be the subject of a similar abduction in the future. If the Hezbollah will gain nothing from abducting Israelis, then it won’t be so eager to abduct Israelis in the future.

It’s your choice. But if you do nothing, don’t act all surprised when someone else decides to.

Ignoring the fact that the your statement just re-affirmed my argument that the Lebanese government is very much responsible for the situation. The Lebanese government had 6 years to work a solution to the threat that Hezbollah poses to the stability of the region in whatever means they would have chosen to. They chose to do nothing, so they have only themselves to blame.

Israel is doing more than enough to avoid casualties on the Lebanese side. One might think that it’s the Hezbollah’s job to defend the Lebanese citizens, and not Israels’ (since they are a part of the government). Yet it seems that you’re one step short of praising the Hezbollah’s actions. As though it’s not Hezbollah’s own fault that Lebanese citizens are getting hurt. It’s Hezbollah which kills Lebanese by engaging a war against Israel, not Israel. If we wanted to kill citizens, we wouldn’t have warned them to leave in the first place. We could have just started bombarding with no warning.

Take Bint Jbeil for example. It would have been much more “cost effective” to level the entire town from the air before sending in the ground troops (and by that, saving Israeli soldiers’ lives). But IDF has decided against it, knowing that in many of the buildings in the town, Hezbollah terrorists were waiting for the Israeli forces.

It sure is easy enough to criticize. But when it comes to finding alternative solutions, silence befalls all.

I don't need to remind you about the order 425 that was issued 20 years ago asking israel to go out of Lebanon and until 2000, this order was not done. So don't let me start talking about who isn't doing what the UN says.

No body attacked you in the first place. the abduction was only for an exchange of the prisioners on your side. that was the plan but you started bombing us. you started this, and if it wasn't because of your goverment, this wouldn't have happened. this war could have been evited by doing a simple exchange like they always did in the past.


When did that happen? Hezbollah has shelled Israeli towns and cities since day one of the war. Not a single day has passed without Katyushas being fired into Israeli territory. They did ask for a cease fire, but that's just impudent of them. If they do want to give something, though, I’d start with the 2 soldiers.[/QUOTE]

WRONG! Hezbollah abducted the two soldiers and didn't fire anything. It was Israel who declared the war while Hezbollah had no intention but a simple exchange. They gave israel 3 days of destroying lebanon, and after these 3 days they declared war back. So the shelling started from your side and not from ours.


Oh so destroying every single bridge in Lebanon the first day where war was declared from your side only is strategic. So tell me now, was it not strategic that this war is so well organised, and it gets me wondering, wasn't it meant to happen because as i see it, your minister said 3 monthes ago that you have set 300 targets in Lebanon and waiting for the right time to get them. And abducting the soldiers was for one reason: get our prisonners back. It was Israel who declared war, not us, so the war is your fault.

Ignoring the fact that the your statement just re-affirmed my argument that the Lebanese government is very much responsible for the situation. The Lebanese government had 6 years to work a solution to the threat that Hezbollah poses to the stability of the region in whatever means they would have chosen to. They chose to do nothing, so they have only themselves to blame.[/QUOTE]

Just so you know, the goverment has said that Hezbollah is the only thing that is able to defend lebanon from israel since the US forbids the lebanese army from having tanks, war planes, rockets...I mean our army is forbiden to be a real army while Israel has every right to use anything the US gives her. How fair is that? So don't expect Lebanon to disarm the only thing that is defending him.

So more then enough for you is asking people to leave and then targeting them while leaving. It's targeting civilian houses where children and women are hiding and killing them all. That is avoiding casualty. If that is avoiding casualty, congratulation!!! And just so you know, you ARE targeting civilians without warning them.

The thing is that you did bomb 75% of the town and bring it down. And just so you know, since you are knowing a lot today, no Hezbollah fighter is hiding in any building, they have said that.

So stop war. Have a ceasefire. Exchange the soldiers for the prisonners. That was a choice from day one. You declared an IMMEDIATE war on us, so who isn't finding the solution?

You seem very eager to lessen the importance of Hezbollah's military incursion into Israeli territory to kidnap Israeli soldiers by calling it "a simple exchange." Unfortunately, several Israelis were also killed in the execution of this operation by what you seem to assert is essentially the official military force of Lebanon(and as such are representatives of the nation as a whole).

You seem to be trying to cheapen the impact of this whole affair by calling their intentions a "simple exchange." This is not a child's game of dodgeball or capture-the-flag, where when your teammates are captured, you can do something special to get them out of "jail," and everyone is still friends at the end of the game.

This is life-taking violence and aggression, not just a frivolous game where you have to play by the rules or you get disqualified.

EDIT: Nehmi: Striked out for now, but could you verify that? I had never heard that. It still doesn't change my point.

EDITx2:They performed a cross-border raid. Unstriked-out.
EDITx3:More evidence

I hate to break it to you, but Hezbollah never entered Israeli territory to kidnap the soldiers, they were in Lebanon.

Double Post:
Hindustan Times (Original not found anymore heh, I wonder why.)


Bahrain News Agency


news.monstersandcritics.com


Asian Times

Here's a handy map.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...arte-finul.gif





EDIT:

Haha, oh this amuses me. The entire post I was going against is gone. ;_;

Thats okay, you can go against my edits. :)
but...
But, it seems, from this information, that the incursion was provoked by Israeli operations in Lebanon. This is new information to me; however I am sure there is much more to these events which we don't know anyways. Apparently, there were many clashes between Hezbollah and Israeli forces on the border for some time before the event in question.

Taken from bbc:
according to this, Hezbollah has abducted the 2 soldiers from within the Israeli territory. As well as shelled Israel (yes, from day one).

Taken from the cnn’s site (from their time-line of the events):
Taken from Wikipedia:
Nehmi, these are 2 of your sources:
The Hezbollah has announced that the Israelis were captured in Lebanon, but that’s not true. The Hezbollah has abducted the soldiers from within Israeli territory. That’s all there is to it.

In response to Casual_Otaku:

What’s happened there is definitely tragic. But these children’s deaths is the Hezbollah’s doing, even if it was caused by Israeli fire. The Hezbollah is risking the Lebanese civilians’ lives by operating from within Lebanese cities, by hiding ammunition inside Lebanese civilian buildings, and by launching rockets from within populated areas.

mms://mz12.mediazone.co.il/mediazone/34/3204!3631.wmv

This film is taken from a recent IDF briefing shown on Israeli television. The video shows the launching of rockets from the area of Kfar Qana. The video continues to show several vehicles that were used to launch rockets entering civilian buildings after launching said rockets.

Oh, and han89, by “real, workable solutions”, I didn’t mean: “just do whatever the Hezbollah wants, and all will be fine.” That’s just dumb.