You obviously equate Talent with mainstream success according to you're above paragraph and this paragraph shows everything wrong with the rap game these days. You can't properly gauge the talent of an underground artist and a mainstream one when you're plan for comparison is using commercial success as the record market in regards to rap is run by white teenage suburbanites who know jackshit about music besides what MTV or BET feeds them is basically the rap equivilent of the EuroPop Top 40.


I know plenty of rappers who purposely don't want to make it big because of this scenario and i don't disagree with them. Nearly every artist that is currently big nowadays has flushed his integrity down the drain and turned his music into Rap-Pop so he can take whitey's son's money and get rich which in my opinion is the antithesis for making music in the first place. The Quest for never-ending wealth is what killed the music industry as well as the rap game and it seems you're part of this problem.


There is a reason the Underground exists, it provides rappers with the outlet to provide music to a crowd who actually appreciate music for it's message and unique approach on beat making and not just because they can shake their ass to it or because it's " popular ". Many Rappers stay within the underground because of the sense of community and camaraderie it provides among the fan's and artists; something that is not found and has been lost in the mainstream for years.

Many Underground rappers would put any of the mainstream ones to shame but they refuse to do so as to them admiration and respect for thier purpose is far more important then making a few million bucks and gaining a few hundred thousand fan's who's sole reason for being a fan is because the artist in question is the " In " thing. A rapper who puts more importance on his message then making it big is far more respectable then an artist who is in it for the money.

You probably one of those cat's who think T.I " King" is the dopest album of 06 so far, don't ya?

I think Tech said it best,

See your stuck in the fact that you see rap as a chance to make money and get your voice heard and then payed.

NOW, Rap was ALWAYS meant for self expression, Not expression of how I got head last night. Seriously, Immortal and MF Doom have something to say, There not selling them selves as a product to make money. They're selling them selves as a person. Saying they don't make hot songs becuase they want to touch on a topic is basically saying using an art and using it correctly is wrong.

Your basing your whole opinion on the sole fact of making money, Making money wise YES, Your right about everything your saying. The Essence of Emcee'ing wise your totally wrong. I guess the hip hop world would much rather listen to expressionless getting grillz style of music then actually take time and listen to the song for what it is.

I equate talent based on what sounds good. Most underground music sounds like total garbage.

Not the dopest, but one of the top three hip-hop albums this year, for sure. Of course, you disagree since you think that anyone who can sell records to a lot of people somehow sucks and is a sell out.

You can throw at me all this nonsense about integrity, but it's all bullshit. You don't have to be a sellout to make music that is marketable.

Well, that´s your opinion. Personally I can say that I pretty much only enjoy alternative and "underground" (I don´t really like that term btw) hip-hop. I can´t stand most of the flashy commercial beats and I don´t like what most of the "money-making" rappers are talking about.

I agree, saying someone is a "sellout" because his/her music is marketable is pretty much nonsense - no matter what genre of music we are talking about. But you have to actually want to make marketable music as well!

You are talking about bad rhyme and beats in underground hip-hop - well that´s all pretty much subjective - but if, for example, Immortal Technique had the hippest beats and the most marketable rap-style ever, I think there would still be problems with the mass market as his music deals with themes that just don´t work in clubs with da hoes in d4 h0us3..

Did i ever mention " selling-out"? No. I Simply stated that if you're main purpose for making music is to inflate your bank account to astronomical proportionals, then you most likely aren't making music for the sole purpose to make music and express yourself; which is definetely true.

I Enjoy music for what it is and not how many albums it sold or money it put into someones pocket, I look for substance in music; something that is extremely lacking in Commercial Rap these days. T.I's " King " i used as an example as the album has only about 4-5 awesome tracks and the rest of it is recycled and rehased garbage.

IF you enter the game with the main purpose of wanting to strike it rich, you should be taken out back, nigga stomped and never be allowed to touch a Mic again. This is the main problem with the game today, the people who are big in the market, they're entire catalogue is simplified beats made for clubs who are attended by people who couldn't differenate a musical note if they're life depended on it and their sole purpose for rapping is making exoborant amounts of money on " booty music ". Rap went from making an artistic statment about the world to taking whitey's money by providing him with a " fictional ghetto life through Cd and simple beats. "

remember, the rap game started on the fact that lyrical delivery was key and beats were only an afterthought, nowadays the reverse is true where beat's are key and lyrical delivery only comes second. The fact that the entire argument on hand is based on petty squabbles about how this rapper sucks because his's beats aren't good on a dance floor. Everyone needs to pull their heads out of their asses espically you NP and remember what Rap/hip-hop roots originated from.

NP, can you honestly tell me T.I. (and whoever the hell else is making these "hot" tracks) has any lyrical talent at all?

I don't know what you mean by this. I don't think subject matter is really an issue. If someone raps about getting head and they have a good delivery and creative lyrics, who gives a fuck.

I agree about the pathetic state of most popular rap music these days, but at the same time the other side of the argument are often exclusionist assholes. Yes, Kanye is a useless douche. That doesn't mean that all good rap music carries some deeply implanted statement about society. The underground scene needs to lighten up, and the pop/rap combos currently on the airwaves need to focus more on their music and less on the frivolities.

Yes, of course, what the fuck? T.I. is one of the sickest in the game with it.

Sometimes I wonder if you do this just to spite us or you're actually autistic.

See, this is the kind of shit that pisses me off.

Why do I gotta have some kind of sinister motivations or be some kind of retard to think T.I. is one of the best emcees spitting right now?

You don't like T.I., obviously. OH FUCKING WELL. What I eat doesn't make you shit.

Yeah, but since you lack of sense of smell, you can't notice that your shit stank up the joint.

HAHAHA! This shit is funny. I don't even see a point to even comparing the two anymore. Mainstream has it's own style and appeals to a bigger amount of people. Most people go to clubs and parties to have a good time not to judge people lyrics. If it sounds good and you can dance to it then it's a hit. Simple as that. This very reason it's what makes it such a big money maker.

Underground has it's own style too and although it apeals to a large number of people it's not even even close to the amount of people that listen to mainstream. It has lyrical values as well as creative beats and that's the main focus of it.

I don't even like mainstream...at all...but to say that either is pure shit is ignorant. People listen to what they like and that's all there is to it.

Also this whole crap about HioHop is dead. HipHop isn't dead...it just evolves.
It's evolved into 2 whole different genres from what I can see.

This coming from a person with AESOP ROCK in his signature.

Aesop Rock holds far more integrity as a lyricist and artist than half of the tripe you panhandle for so religiously, so spare me the lobotomy.

Aesop Rock holds far more integrity as an emcee who can chain together sixteen syllable words endlessly and yet say not A GODDAMN THING AT ALL.

You're so right. This is much better.

Thanks for making my eyes bleed, Capo. Those lyrics were brilliant! :tpg:

Weapon has a valid point, Everyone likes there own music.

BUT to say Aesop is pointless shows that you don't understand his lyrics. I just read the qoute in the sig and I have to say it's quite a feat among lyricists:

That right there is COMPLEX as fuck, That Makes T.I. look like a down syndrome baby. BUT like Weapon said everyone has there own style of music, But to say Aesop Rock is pointless shows you don't understand what he's saying.

Capo, is that seriously a song? I'm scared to even listen to it... :(

You guys got some serious hate in your blood. Granted, "What You Know" isn't the most lyrical song in existence, that track is a bonafide banger.

Oh, I understand his lyrics just fine - they're just so needlessly abstract that I don't find them enjoyable to listen to.

You see, your ability to absorb the lyrics is directly proportional to understand why they're so abstract. If you don't find them enjoyable to listen to on THAT premise, then there's a fatal flaw in your personality.

Now, if I may be allowed a small nod to Aesop with a lyrical pun:

You got me fucked up, kid. I don't like people who spit lyrics like that. I hear them, I understand them, but I don't find it particularly enjoyable. T.I. could spit the same shit and I'd be like "....This nigga is trippin'..."

Somehow I get the feeling that your homeslice lacks the opposable thumbs to write lyrics like Aesop, but whatever.

Dawg, you're crazy. T.I. shits on Aesop as a lyricist.