Hold on, hold on

So these guys, they go HUNTING

But they're afraid they might run into something dangerous

So they bring weapons other than the ones they USE FOR HUNTING

Because those weapons are apparently not good for killing animals with, so:

Why hunt using those weapons in the first place?

Hint: It involves rolling D20s!

Genetically engineered bears are the largest cats of them all.

(I quoted this from Manis Tricuspis's post... did you edit it out of a previous post or something?)

Anyway if you were trying to poke fun... meh. I think a sidearm when bowhunting is a good enough idea in a dangerous area as I'm assuming yours is. … A bear would be too big/strong to take down without a strong bow and arrows made for the job, and wildcats would be too quick for most people. Hunting is different from being suddenly ambushed by a predator. ;)

So which is it? Handguns are pointless as you said earlier in this thread or as you just stated (completely contradicting yourself I might add) that a sidearm is good defensive tool used while hunting?

I'm not really sure I would want to try and hunt a large brown bear with a bow. Seems rather ineffective to hunt an animal that can take three .45 rounds and still keep coming at you.

I own a .22 semi auto...but it's more of a showcase type since it's 70 years old. I have experience was .45's, .357's (both revolver and semi-auto types), and have practiced with various rifles before.

What kind of actual gun would I like? Not sure, to be honest :p I'm more happy with semi-auto's than revolvers though.

It is possible to increase a powder charge to get a little more power out of your rounds. However, its a very bad idea. More powder means more pressure, and if you're putting your gun under more pressure than it was designed to handle, you run the risk of blowing it up, along with your hands.

That said, I use SLIGHTLY beefed up rounds in my Makarov. I've modified the gun however, so it handles them well. I'm using an extra-strong recoil spring. I use 95gr Hornady XTP bullets and "Bullseye" gunpowder. Here are some stats:

Normal Pressure 9X18 Makarov loading: 3.6gr of powder, 975 FPS

My +P 9X18 loading: 4.1gr of powder, 1040 FPS

Notice that my actualy velocity gain isn't that much compared to how much extra power I had to use. A 13% increase in powder only gave me a 6% increase in velocity...

Anyway... Yesterday morning I went target shooting with my dad. I shot is .45 ACP 1911 for the first time in many years. Now I want a 1911 even more... I think I'd rather have the .38 Super version, but .45 ACP is a great round too.

I never realized it before, but the 1911's recoil has a very different feel to it than my Makarovs recoil. I believe this is because the 1911 is a locked breech design while the Makarov is a straight blow-back design. The Makarov doesn't "Kick" as much, but it feels like it flops around in your hand alot more...

What the shit? I concede a point to you and this is how you thank me? Go fuck yourself, Bubba.

No you probably wouldn't. You don't have the patience or the skill, being the clubfooted, hamfisted gun-waving retard that you are.

Lay some bait and wait until he's laying down by the bait, then shoot him behind the shoulder. That's how you hunt bear.

It's not the gun that's ineffective, it's the untrained and uneducated shooter who's holding it.

It is POSSIBLE to kill an elefant with a .22

That doesn't mean its the prefered way hunt one...

I might understand using a bow to hunt smaller bear like Black bear... but you'd have to be nuts to go after brown or grizzly bear with a bow...

Nah.

http://www.bowhunts.com/grizzly.html

With a 70# bow or better, using broadheads like Zwickeys', you're set.

Thanks, Gumby, I'm not gonna add any more powder, but I was curious about it.

Whatup, Manis? How ya feel?

Untrained? Your a joke Arrowhead. I am exceptionally trained in the use of a firearm both through personal use of gun, gun safety training, and the fine training provided by this great nations military.

What I can see from your line of thought is this, you're a snob Arrowhead. You think because you spend time to learn a skill that you are better than those who choose a more effective way to hunting which you may not realize takes a whole new set of skills to properly use. This is not to say I am against bow hunting as I do love archery but for the purpose of hunting, home defense, and weapons of war a firearm out matches a bow and arrow in every aspect except sound but even that can compensated for.

Canada allows shotguns doesn't it? Have you ever been skeet shooting? That is fun. Then again from the sound of it you probably enjoy the hunt just as much as the act of shooting the animal.

Ok no more arguing about bow vs gun, this isn't the point of this thread. If you would like to continue to debate this, take it up with me in PM.

Darkk Child: Yeah my grandfather reloads ammo all the time, but you got to beware of hot boxing rounds that shouldn't be. Particularly if your gun isn't rated to handle that sort of ammo.

David4516: I'm with you, I don't plan on hunting a bear with a bow anytime soon. Besides the fact that I don't like the taste of bear meat. I think I will stick to deer and elk.

Stalking an animal and placing one good shot to take it down unawares is totally different from being attacked by it and having to fend it off in a panic.

Double Post:
Where did I call you personally untrained? Duh, I didn't. You're just blowing hot air now.

I'm the snob? You're the one who thinks the rest of us are jealous of you for owning firearms.

Well actually, at close range (which is how a bow is used in hunting), I'd expect that an arrow is every bit as devastating as a bullet, if not more. Of course it all depends on what calibre/type of bullet and firearm you're comparing to what arrow/head and bow.

As for "home defense", I stand firm in my belief that a firearm makes a home less safe, not more. Obviously someone with responsibility and extensive training like yourself can be trusted, but you're the exception rather than the rule. As for war, of course the firearm is superior to the bow, heh.

As for skeet shooting, sounds like fun.

As for hunting... Actually, I haven't been hunting yet. More than anything, I just don't have the money for the bow, arrows and license that I'd need. And with the bow I use right now, I'm not so sure that I could pass the test.

Nah, I think I've said my piece. I'll leave you with this, though: drop your guns and practice archery exclusively for a year or two, and you'll have a whole new appreciation for your guns when you pick 'em up again.

Shame. It's about as good a trophy as you can get. But I admire you for not hunting just for a trophy.

I believe because of the velocity of the bullet that it actually has a higher KJ of impact energy. Don't quote me on that though.

I agree that having guns in everyone's home is not the best idea, some just aren't responsible to operate a gun safely, the same can be said about cars :/. However everyone that I know who keeps firearms in their homes are people who are very safe with guns, not bumbling idiots that shoot everything in sight.

Yeah I hunt for meat, when I take down an animal I want to eat it not stick it up on my wall. I've never actually been bow hunting but the last time I used a bow I probably needed another 3 months of practice before I'd be ready to hunt with a bow. That was a few years ago.

While I'd love to put down a gun for a year or two just to use a bow but I can't. I'll be needing a rifle in less than a year when I get deployed.

Hehe, true... but I'd like to think that cars are a lot more useful than firearms. Unless the world ends and we all have to go back to hunting and fighting each other over food......

That's kind of a black-and-white comparison, don'tcha think? ;)

Sheeit. :| Well, come back alive, bro. :)

On a sidenote, since we're talking about weapons...

Are telescopic baton worth anything?

I don't have the means to bu a 400$ gun along with the ammo and permit so I was wondering if such a baton would be helpful? Or just plain waste of money?

Yes, these situations are totally different in one major respect:

Situation B is not for pussies. "Our weapons are useless, of course, in the event that the animals actually notice us."

Well this is more of a firearms discussion... but you know you can get a Hi-Point pistol for about 100 dollars? A baton is more useful over say a bat because it is easier to conceal. However I don't know the laws of where you are so I don't suggest you hide this weapon on your person until you find out the specifics.

The real question is why do you need or want a baton?

Just remember that before you plan to use ANY type of weapon for self defense, you need to know how to properly use the thing.

Learning a Martial art is also a good idea...

And if you're looking for a cheap handgun that works well, get a Makarov, not a High-Point...

High-Point from what I can gather is not a bad handgun, basic and ugly but other than that I can't find any fault with them. They have gotten a bad name from improper stacking of the bullets in the magazine which will case a jam, simply smack the magazine hard once so the bullets are seated properly and you will have no problem with them. Beside Hi-Point is about 1/2 the price of a Makarov.

If you can muster about 350USD Luger's P90, P95, and P97 all offer VERY reliable handguns for a good price.

I agree with David on that though, you really need to know how to use a baton before you decide to carry one.

Gumby, not 2 days ago I saw a Makarov in a gun shop for $140

I cannot stress enough how much gun you're getting for such a low price. It's a solid, combat tested pistol. Having shot several of them (in both 9X18 and .380 calibers), and owning one myself, I can honestly say I've NEVER seen one jam (I've fired at least 2,000 rounds in my own personal Makarov, jam-free). And thats with several different types of ammo, including my own home-made stuff.

The high point, on the other hand, is a boat anchor. They're freaking HUGE. Size does matter when you're talking about a carry gun. I've actually fired both guns, and trust me, the Makarov is far superior...

Also, it's RUGER, not LUGER, LOL. I have no "hands on" experiance with Ruger handguns, but I love their rifles. If their handguns are anything like the rifles, then I wouldn't hesitate to recomend one.

Huh, was it used? The cheapest I've seen one go for was about 200. I'll have to look into those a little more. I do agree though, Hi-Points are large and ugly but they are of fairly sturdy construction. Good for plinking if nothing else.

Have you ever had the chance to fire a Luger P90? I've got my eye on a really nice one but I would like to hear about someones personal experience with said gun. As for the 2k rounds, I'd expect any decent pistol to be able to do that without a problem. I've heard of some pistols going through 20,000 rounds with almost no reduction in accuracy.

I've also heard good things about Walther PPK/S .380 from my grandfather who carries one with him at all times.

Like I said in my last post, I have not actually fired a RUGER (not Luger) pistol.

As for the Makarov being used, all Makarovs are used, they're millitary surplus after all. The one I got was about $130, and was in nearly-new condition, it looked like it had only been fired a few times.

About the PPK, the PPK and the Makarov are VERY similar. The design is almost exactly the same, the main differances being that the Makarov is slightly larger, both in size and caliber, and their safteys work differently. Either one would be a good choice IMHO.

I think the High-Point would be a great gun for someone who is mainly interesting in plinking and is on a budget. I just wouldn't personaly trust my life to one in self-defense situation.

Mainly because I don't have the means for a firearms, less the desire to own one and not willing to get the permit/license for one. And I wouldn't trust myself with one... I'd probably shoot myself in the foot.

A baton seems safer, easier to carry/conceal and cheaper for my needs when I walk either on campus or anywhere else.

I don't own a gun, but my husband would love to own one. I think here it is legal to carry a concealed weapon as long as you have the right license or permit or something. I am really not sure. I'm not into guns, myself...

:cow:

lol I was really tired when I typed that. Yeah Ruger not Luger lol.

I agree with you, I wouldn't use one to carry but I'm sure they are great to learn on especially when you are trying to teach someone the basics of gun safety. I really wouldn't want to put a 1000 dollar pistol in the hands of some who has never fired one and might possibly drop it.