OK...I'm confused....WTF are we talking about here now? VGM HipHop is better than HipHop? I mean I went back and read how this started but what is the point you're trying to make exaclty?

Also aren't artist like FatJon and DJ Shadow considered instrumental HipHop?

On another note...

I just got all the Samurai Champloo sountracks finaly....Yes I'm kinda late on that but whatever....Best fucking hiphop I've heard in a while. The damn beats are sick!

Also I'm loving this Narls Barley album. It's just something different to listen to but refreshing.

Oh, Gnarls Barkley. Gotta remind myself to check
that out, as well as MF Doom and other Danger
Mouse stuff. Related note: only just bought GZA's
Beneath the Surface. Dunno what took me so long;
I completely like what I hear.

Ahh, MF Doom is iLL, MF Grimm is iLL, NAS Is iLL, Binary Star is iLL, Common is iLL, Big L is iLL, Immortal Technique is iLL, KRS-One is iLL, Jedi Mind Tricks are iLL, Common is iLL, Mathematik is iLL, Cormega is iLL.

Those rappers and many more are iLL, The way I see it Hip Hop's gone down hill and it still is. Apprently the new fad is listening to club music when your not even in a club. I don't understand the whole basis but for some reason meaningful music is gone and apparently wack music is the new basis of it all.

I really think if people were more open minded when it comes to underground (Which there not) Hip Hop would be more marketable when it comes to a rapper trying to his message across. Suprisingly the only recent rapper who has done something new with the rap game and hasn't be washed away based on the media's effect on main stream artists is Lupe Fiasco. Seriously Hip Hop has gone down as a community and as an art form.

Rap is alive, Just not how it should be. Anyone who doesn't understand what i'm saying listen to: I Used to love H.E.R. by Common.

The real reason why people aren't open to underground hip-hop is because 98 percent of 'underground' rappers don't know how to make hot songs.

It's not that people got anything against so-called 'conscious' hip-hop, it's that most underground rappers sound fucking horrible. Their beats suck, their flows and deliveries suck, their hooks are completely uncatchy and thus forgettable, and they just sound unpolished as all fuck.

Guys like Kanye West and Lupe Fiasco get their fair share of radio play because they understand the concept of making good songs.

Ahh, BUT, Listen to Immortal Technique, Or Pitch Black Or Jedi Mind tricks EVEN Mf Doom and MF Grimm or Even Binary Star. They ALL have ill beats.

Are you seriously citing Kanye West as a decent beat maker? the dude recycles his beats and loops more then 50 Cent spews utter garbage and lies about being tough and a street thug.

I've heard all these people. To me, these people's beats suck the wang.

Yes. He's one of my top five producers, actually.

:o, Well I guess thats your opinion. I personally think they all have some of the best beats ever produced...

I've got to agree with you right there. You have a very valid point.

Seriously, you seem to be infatuated with the mainstream trend of re-using old beats over, and over, and over again. Tech and MF Doom have some of the most innovative sounds I have ever heard in rap, and actually put some effort into making themselves stand out from the bunch. Honestly, I couldn't even tell a lot of these popular rappers apart, most of the time.

Now; enlighten me if you will, "Flowman", what exactly constitutes a "hot song"?

Double Post:
You seem to be missing the point here Capo. Last I heard, recycling 70's and 80's songs into "HOT BEATS" and "SCREWTAPES" was the crux of rap music.

YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. LEAVE THE THREAD FOREVER.

A hot song is hot in all aspects - the beat is stellar, the rhymes are awe-inspiring, and the hook is absolutely infectious - you cannot get it out of your head.

There's a reason why a lot of emcees like MF Doom, Immortal Technique, and others will never see mainstream success: They make music that is almost intentionally dull, drab, and unlistenable to by the average consumer. From the beats to the rhymes to the hook, the songs these artists make are inherently weak.

And while you can fall back upon the 'it's just your opinion', you gotta realize that I'm pretty deeply entrenched in the music industry. I know what the fuck I'm talking about regarding this. It doesn't mean that these artists will have to dumb down their lyrics and make a carbon-copy club track on par with "Laffy Taffy" or "Lean Wit It, Rock Wit It." It does, however, mean that they will have to step up their songwriting game.

For example - take the entire QN5 Music roster: Tonedeff, Pack FM, Cunninlynguists, Session, and a few others.

I know Tone personally and Deacon is one of the reasons I started spitting rhymes in the first place. I've heard unreleased material from these guys that if it ever got the mainstream exposure it would simply blow the fuck up.

But when it comes to putting out an album, what do these guys do? They go completely abstract. Tonedeff sabotages himself by putting out a song like "Politics" out as the first 'single' and wonders why he's 'slept on' by the music industry. Deacon and Kno proceed to release an album that is good, but has nothing that is marketable whatsoever - and despite the critical acclaim they receive, they really have nothing to show for it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about regarding these rappers - they either don't have the ability to create a song that appeals to anything other than a niche market or they refuse to in the name of 'art.'

So no, these guys that are stuck in the underground are going to stay that way because they aren't complete as artists.

I've heard this rant from you on many occassions, but it all comes down to this: When you have to adapt your "game" to appeal to wider audiences you fail to see that the masses are fucking morons.

Plus, you really make it a point to make it sound like the underground is a bad place to be. Why?

I'm curious. So if someone makes an album underground and doesn't want the masses to get ahold of it, does that make that person a failure in your eyes, Night Phoenix?

I don't know about other people's motivations, but I'm in this game for two main reasons:

1. To be heard by as many people as possible.
2. To make money.

The underground is the antithesis to this.

I hear a lot of these underground emcees whine and moan about how the cats who are out there in the game suck and aren't 'real hip-hop' and I just laugh. When I listen to these underground niggas and then I listen to more commercial niggas, the difference is night and day - underground emcees just don't have the proper sound to make it.

I want you people to think for a second...

Give Immortal Technique the same promotional budget as say.....Young Joc and see who is more successful.

Immortal Technique makes music that only appeals to a small amount of people. Furthermore, this nigga's songmaking ability is pathetic. In short, the nigga simply isn't pleasant to listen to for most people.

Music is a business. I don't have time to play around and see how many multisyllablic rhyme schemes I can put together. I'm out to make music that people will enjoy and are willing to purchase. Most of these cats in the underground are just playing around. If they were serious, they'd stop making that bullshit.

no. not really.
theyre just aiming for a different market; one that isnt mainly 12 year old girls.
it IS possible to make money on an independent label.

yes, music is a business. but to some people its more than a business. apparently you cant understand this.

I remember a time when people made music because it was about the music. Hip-hop became the cash-whore that it is because of cats like you, plain and simple. It's a business, yes; but it doesn't make it a soul-swap meet.

I mean, did it ever occur to you that maybe personal integrity and making music for the few fans that they have was more important to an artist than peddling monotonous styles to the masses because "yo braoh... dats what dem niggas wanna hear."?

Your dislike of Immortal Technique, well, that's your thing I guess. But to the rest of us who actually dig his music he seemed to manage his messages with his beats just fine. But that's just me.

No shit. Talk to Percy Miller, Baby and Slim Williams, and Micheal Watts.

I understand it better than anyone on this board ever will.

Who the fuck do you think you're talking to? I've poured more time and money into this shit than you can even fathom. I haven't sold my soul for shit. I live, breathe, sleep, and eat music. I am, however, about making music that people want to listen to. I'm about making quality music that stands up against anything on the radio right now but is still lyrically creative. I am of the belief that you can still produce commercially-viable music without dumbing yourself down and the success me and my labelmates are having with a major label at this very moment is proof of it.

Getting money with this music shit isn't selling your soul and I'm insulted that you would insinuate that is is.

And yet, the artists who you quote as having this pontifical lyrical prowess can't stop rapping about woodgrain, spinners and premium gasoline.

Yes, because an artist is completely defined by the single the label decides to release.

The label releases singles which they think are marketable, yes. I mean, you're all here to make money, right? You said so yourself.

However, they are defined by what songs they write. Now, call me crazy here but, when the lobotomized subject material is "what dem niggas wanna hear" that's exactly what the artists write and that's exactly what the label is going to put out.

But maybe, just maybe, there's a tiny little group of people who are tired of the mainstream for this reason and thus have turned to far more intelligent wit, song writing and unique beat producing.

Guess which group I'm in?

All I'm saying is.....for every "24s" there's a "Still Ain't Forgave Myself." For every "Turn It Up" there's a "Think I'm Crazy." For every "Hot In Herre" there's a "N Dey Say".

You seem to have it in your mind that because mainstream artists write about cars, bitches, clothes, etc. for their singles that they are incapable or unwilling to write about other subjects and that's simply not true.

You can't judge an artist solely on his singles.

"Still Ain't Forgave Myself" is a pretty good song on the lyrics side, I'll admit. "Think I'm Crazy" is a bit different subject matter but still a pretty good song as well. Still, that still doesn't deter the fact that there are plenty more underground artists who can convey a human feeling far better than any of your acquaintances.

You want proof? Go listen to The Coup again. I'm sure you've heard them and I'm sure you think they're whack, but I'll never forget the first time I heard "Me and Jesus The Pimp In a '79 Granada".

And you know what the kicker is? They didn't have to sell out for me to hear that single.

I'm willing to agree to disagree. When I listen to 95 percent of the underground, regardless of what they're talking about, I feel completely unmoved. I take into account the entire performance. Sure, there are some gems here and there, but by and large, the whole 'underground artists can convey a human feeling better' is iffy at best to me.

Simply put, I feel that if you put any of your favorite underground artists up against any current mainstream artist on an equal playing field (media exposure, marketing budgets, no. of units shipped first week, etc.) that the underground artists simply wouldn't measure up based on the strength of their music.

Fair enough to me, I guess. But I still think that the audiences have a lot more to do with it than anything. If the audiences had good taste in music we'd both be singing completely different tunes.