No offense, dude, but what the hell?

While America was based upon the very foundation of immigration, the problem is that immigration today is not what it meant to be 100 years ago.

The fact that people repeatedly beat their chests that "the first illegal immigrants were the Pilgrims!" is fucking asinine. For the Pilgrims to be illegal immigrants, they would have to be landing in an established nation with laws. I suppose one could argue that the Native Americans had laws - but they weren't a nation so much as a large series of regionalized clans who's laws changed with their borders.

Yes, the pilgrims landed in America - but so did the goddamned Vikings many, many years before them.

The problem with this immigration situation is that Bush wants it done *his* way. He wants to police our borders - yet calls the civilians who were doing border patrol as "vigilantes". It will boil down to this - either the GOP gets its way and loses all of its power when its voted out or the GOP gives ground and we lose immigration reform.

Le hah There is even some people who Claim the chineese landed in America before the vikings - what does this prove - Some people may have come over here from Europe to escape tyranny and get freedoms - But in the End Greed is what the main cause became - The rulers of the countries pushed to explore and take over land for Money and Power nothing more, And in doing this they nearly wiped a Race of people off the planet, of which only Mutts like me Exist, that carry any of the blood. This is all in the past though while interesting I dont let that affect how i think. I agree with the guest worker program, and the ideas put forth about that.
Skexis
Really DUDE. That is how i feel, I feel the obligation to educate all your fellow man is more important thatn whording wealth, Although this notion seems completely opposed to the every day AMericano Ideals. A better Educated society in whole would make class differences less important, and interactions with other educated people more worth while, than say Buying 10 cars - or throwing away money by having 15 TVs in a house that you cant possibly watch.

Another apt statement. It takes the wind out of the sails of the pro-immigrant flag-wavers who are repeating that the Pilgrims were illegal immgrants. I mean, if they want to make a point about legal or illegal immigration, then they should be able to do without "finger pointing". "Oh the Pilgrims did it!" is not only incorrect but is borderline racist.

I won't bother quoting Gordon Gecko.

I don't see how this is a major problem though. Ancient people crossed the landbridge that spanned from Russia to Alaska in whats assumed to be hunting parties while tracking wild animals. It's in Man's nature to spread out; I don't think thats greed so much as instinct. We don't refer to an increasing amount of poor people as "greed", do we?

Heres a sad fact for you: I'm an even bigger mutt than you. I mean, consider this - there is no such thing as being Irish. We were an English fishing colony that was attacked, plundered and raped by the Spanish and the Danes for decades. Then we were put under the rule of the English king, which we resented for over 700 years. My entire race is based on mass rape and then subserviant rule by a foreign power - we've been dicked for over 1,400 years. What the fuck do you have to complain about?

I don't decry the Spanish or the Danes for doing what they did because that was a long, long time ago and the people who did it are long dead. I'm not foolish enough to try and sued the countries for their sins against my forefathers. Your being a mutt doesn't mean shit to me because theres always someone that has it worse than you.

I haven't changed my mind. I still think that those who came to this country illegally should be thrown out, no matter how long they've been here. However, for those still outside the country waiting to get in in order to work, a guest worker program would make the most sense.

So you are advocating the criminalization and expulsion of 12 million people who are interwoven into the fabric of American society because in the past they comitted a crime, most likely in order to ensure their own and their family's survival?

Come on man, you know better than that.

Most of these people are hard working, and I haven't seen any data that shows that these people are any more than simple, low-wage workers.

And how are they going to find out who is a legal and an illegal immigrant? Aproach wet-backs and chinks for their papers? Ever heard of anything that against the spirit of this nation anymore than that?

Absolutely.

We're a nation of laws and crimes need to be punished. If anything, our justice system is too gimp-wristed as is. Punishment should be severe and inflict pain against the criminal to dissuade him against further acts of criminality. Who are we to deny that perfect mechanisim - learning through pain - that evolution put into us all those ages ago?

While I don't agree with the "they take away our jobs" mentality so many people have, illegal immigration has bled our health services and has repeatedly attempted to ratify their "right" to vote, which is just outlandish in its stupidity.

The fact remains this - its called "Illegal Immigration" because its illegal. You cannot quantify any sort of arguement in favor of illegal immigration without saying you want to break Federal laws. You are in the wrong, you are the problem.

So you want to DEPORT 12 million people?

I fail to see how not punishing people who know they've commited a crime has any value whatsoever.

Yes. Those 12 million people are criminals. They and their criminal employers are leeches of the U.S. economy.

What gets me is the fact that these illegal immigrants can get away with protesting/marching in a nation that they came to and live in illegally anyway. I suppose INS has their collective thumbs up their collective asses at the moment?

I even read something in today's newspaper about a local march. Apparently their was trouble with the immigrants getting permits to protest, so the police bent the rules to give them the proper authorization. OMGWTF.

I could go on and on about how capitalism is to blame, and how a society with an economy maintained by illegal workers will eventually implode upon itself due to the rapid expansion and lack of a sufficently paid consumer base to support it all...but I'm a little too tired to even bother.

There were Africans who sailed here too long before Europeans knew what the "New World" was. Nevertheless, any pro-immigrant person who makes a statement that the "Pilgrims were illegal" lost their marbles.

I'm for illegal immigrants. They help us far more than they hurt us. Did you guys know that illegal immigrants pump 463 billion dollars into Social Security every year? They do this to elude authorities into making them think they are legal. Well, they can't get any money out of the system because they're NOT legal. Take that away from the economy and it will be another leg that will fall from SS.

The way I see it, immigration laws have always been racist in this country. The proposed solutions are a lose-lose situation. These people should not be criminalized.

And you don't sense any kind of connection between what you think should be done and the idea that it may not be as easy as you claim it to be?

I read this on another board and thought it an interesting argument against the protesting:

I don't agree with the assimilation statement though, since America is a "melting pot".

I am sick and tired of people ignoring this part of the debate and how illegals are contributing more to the economy than draining.

People aren't ignoring it, they just aren't convinced it's true. Companies undercutting wages because illegals are available is agreed upon (What's debated is whether this is good or bad). Other than that, the whole stuff about social security, taxes, medical care, insurance etc. are all things that I've seen no conclusive numbers to indicate whether or not they contibute more than they drain. Both cases have been asserted, but neither have been strongly backed.

And the fact remains that *legal* immigrants would better than illegal ones. I fail to see how ignoring illegal immigration is a better solution than reforming legal immigration.

While I do disagree with the statement that illegal immigrants are "adding" to America, I will admit that its a twist statement I did not suspect and will have to research further before coming to any complete conclusion. I think its only fair to research something you disagree with to find out if you are right or wrong in disagreeing with it.

Le Hah - Heres a sad fact for you, U are in No way more mutt than me YOUR WHITE, I am not, while i share European ancestry maybe half if that. Bottom line i dont agree with American laws regarding immigrants, and its people who foster these elite ideas who will make it so man will never achieve a state of peace or anything for that matter, Your like American Fundamentalists. I mean u seem very smart, i respect some of your ideas while i dont agree with most but i respect them. But please dont make assumptions that Irish are a Race because if u look it up Clearly Irish has never been considered anything but white(Excluding Early America, and this is until they where accepted)Race is way to deep to get into here it would take many pages but i can Guarantee Irish is not a race They are part of the White Population( by the way my last name is McDevitt) so i am indeed part Irish decent i even have a wierd Red beard when it grows out with black hair kinda odd but anyways. And also dont compare the Greed of European Kings and Queens with people that where hunters and gatherers that followed their food supply. Although Greed is not exclusive to Europeans as u can See the Aztecs and Incas where not the Nicest of people.
Skexis - Your right in our society it will be unlikely to be done. That doesnt mean it shouldnt be done. Problem is people would never part with thier wealth - People honestly believe they are entitled to more than others - Granted a Doctor should not make the same wage as a Janitor, But shouldnt there be a line where one says i Have way too much maybe it would be better spent on others. Maybe a better educated soceity would have less crime and spend less time fighting over things like, religions, BORDERS, Race, and a bunch of other things.

Oh, so you're an admitted racist then. Why should I bother talking to you, if thats the case?

Fact remains - I'm black Irish. I have spanish blood in me somewhere because some sailor raped some fair-haired woman back in the year 700.

I'm more of a mutt than you will ever be because I'm white. See - when you're black, you're not black - you're from Nigeria. But when you're white, you're only white - you're not English or Lithueanian or Norweigan. You're seen as white. Validation of a white man's heritage is looked down upon just because of the suffering of Africans over 100 years ago.

Racism is backwards compatible.

Thats fine - I disagree with American gun control. But that doesn't give me the right to buy an illegal Russian asault rifle. And disagreeing with immigration law does not give you the right to come into the country illegally. If anything, by resisting immigration law by coming into the country illegally is only going to end up making immigration laws tougher for everyone, even people visiting other countries with have green cards or visas.

Answer me this: Why is it so hard to come to America legally? Why do you have to go out of your way to do it illegally, knowing you're doing it illegally and then think you reserve the right to bitch?

I'm sorry but the fact that you run a fruit stand does not reserve you the right to throw rotten produce at people who refuse to buy it.

Yeah, if you ignore the fact that the Irish had their own language, their own heritage, their own legends, their own history, their own borders, their own way of life, their own basic culture - of course the Irish are only white. Just like how you're only a mutt without a country. You're a half-breed, a mongrel, a part-nigger wetback looking motherfucker.

Your sentiments echo Richard Wagner - whos antisemetic statements are well known. "A person without a country cannot write music" was what he said about Jews with instruments. And now you're telling me I'm "only white"? You are the lowest of the low - a contradiction who says he wants equal rights when all you want is special treatment. I'll spit in your fucking face if we ever meet. You're not even worth punching.

Your prattle about "only white" only succeeds in showing that you don't know shit about the subject. You're flapping your arms, screaming over an issue that you fail to research.

Nearly everyone is a mutt of some sorts... I've got a mix of Irish… Scottish… German, French... Spanish… Mexican... in me.

As for your race argument... what are they listed where you are from? Caucasian... Latin... Asian... Polynesian... etc. I don't see a breakdown of all the Asian races... nor of the Latino races... nor any other races.


In another statement made yesterday I think you made mention of the excesses of Americans that are "Buying 10 cars - or throwing away money by having 15 TVs in a house that you can’t possibly watch"... exactly where in the hell are you seeing this taking place? I live in the Southern California and I sure as hell don't see people with ten cars... or fifteen televisions... hell, those of us living out here are just trying to make it from week to week. So step off your pedestal of grandeur and open your eyes to the reality and not some fabrication of yours.

Who decides what is 'way too much?' The government? How about we just confiscate all income over the amount the government decides is required for a household to maintain itself?

It's getting ignored largely because it's a bullshit argument. Given that these "undocumented workers" are so named for a reason, it's hard to say exactly how many are using fake Social Security numbers, but I seriously doubt that many actually do so. Meanwhile, they are NOT paying any state or federal income taxes, and while they're sitting on jobs Americans might otherwise be holding, those Americans are drawing unemployment and welfare checks from the government.

Meanwhile they're also putting a strain on the health care system, their presence on the road drives up insurance premiums, their put additional strain on the public school systems, and so on. It's hardly a simple matter of money into Social Security = immigrants paying their way - even if we broadly assume a significant percentage of those 12 million illegals even ARE paying into SS.

God u take being white personal dont you - i didnt decide this look it up. I agree Irish had diffirent culture, values and such this does not make them a different race. Look up the Difference in Ethnicity, Race, Nationality, and you will cee what i mean. I am no Racist but your statement about me being a nigger sure makes u seem like a straight up Rainbow coalition Rep. But according to Early American Laws about the one Drop Rule anyone with one drop of african Ancestry was black, So Therefore according to DNA results i think it was about 30% of Americans who claim to be white had about 5% african blood, So therefore there is a large amount of us So called mutt mongrel niggers out there. Anyways man Honestly Race and Ethnicity and Ancestry and all that was a big issue i had when i was young and i did lots of research into it and am still fond of reading new developments about it, and new scientists ideas, and theories. I really dont want enemies and i didnt suspect u to get so violent - but in all honestly While Irish people do exhibit differences in culture, they are lumped into the White Race this no way diminishes the differences they have ( im fond of the music from Ireland actually), Maybe i said that in a wrong way before, so for that im sorry.

Niekon - Where do i cee this
Southern California is one of the places. I live in the DC Metro Area I can name numerous places i CEE it, How about langley highschool where children drive Bentleys to school. Or the houses ive worked on Where u can cee TV's in every room. One other place to cee it is Look at American Diets. About your statement on RACE. U should know there is no such thing as Latino Races ( latino is a subgroup often defined as a race, but it has many mixed ancestry ) In the Latino community it is better broken down into Nationalities, but even here u get problems because someone From Lebanon born in Mexico is now a Mexican - but is he Latino? - Is he hispanic ? Or his he Shakiras Brother? i dont know nobody has clearly defined these lines yet. Obviously Nationality wise he is mexican, Buth Ethnically he may not be, His ancestry sure isnt


Night Phoenix - U know what i was thinking the same thing Maybe Bush should start another Agency that would manage peoples Wealth Great Idea.
Actually though,Your right thats where the problem arises people would have to know themselves when too much is too much.

Ok to finish Lehah Sorry , U know i Agree with u about the WHite thing - White peopel are just lumped into one group, which is sad, Because alot of the diversity is unkown and there is alot. I dont really think this is the place to discuss Race though so ill leave it alone, maybe in another thread. And as far a immigration YES Its against the law - Should peopel be made Felons for Trying to Work In my opinion NO, Should the people already here be punished in My opinion NO - the government Shoudl make it easier for people to come here and work, and that is not easy - While it might be easy for some Rich person to come over and immigrate, some poor person without proper education would have a hard time trying to get into the country, thats why they risk their lives and pay thousands to come.

Because you know better than to refute anything the internet says!

You're really a lost cause. At first I wondered if you were one of those people who makes points but doesn't make use of any sort of grammar, but this just proves that you have no points and have no sort of grammar let alone spelling or punctuation.

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously? "The internet told me so!" is about as lame as you can possibly get.

Igod82: What gives you the right to take something away from someone who worked hard for it and giving to some bottom scum piece of shit that just needs to kill themselves because they are good for nothing? You know what that is called? Communism... Guess what that makes you, a fucking commie.

So have you ever actually read what the definition of racist is?

Webster's Unabridged Dictionary defines racism as the following:

- The doctrine that certain races of mankind are naturally superior to others; program of racial discrimination based on this doctrine, as in the Nazi Germany.

So Igod82 are you saying these people need special help because they are inferior? Because if they were equal to everyone else they wouldn't need extra help right? Remember those retarded kids in school, how they got special teachers and special classes? So are you saying that the minorities are like that retarded kid and that they need special help to do well? So what, does that make white people superior because we don’t get special rights to break the law and get away with no punishment?

BTW it is "see" not "cee". Ever hear of spell check?

LeHah: I think he was one of the short bus kids.