Here's something that'll blow your miniscule mind...

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Wait, what? How in the perfect blue hell does it not matter whose definition of "good person" you're talking about? Well, let me tell you a little story.

Betsy was raised by her mother, Joan. Before Betsy was born, Joan left her husband, Dick, because he was a dick. He was a devout Christian, followed the Bible's word to a T, and because of the way his particular religion interpreted the Bible, he felt a woman should be subservient to him. Joan eventually got tired of this treatment, especially after being eight months pregnant and having to serve Dick's every whim because he was too fat and lazy and tired to do anything but watch television once he got home from doing HIS duty which is, he believes, to be the "provider and protector" of his family. Guess that doesn't include protecting his wife's self-esteem. MOVING ON.
Joan was a complete atheist. She didn't believe in God at all. Didn't think God, or the afterlife, or heaven or hell existed. As such, she felt that everything she did in life, and however she affected people, needed to be as positively influencing as possible, so that her brief existence would have some meaning. On every moral issue she taught Betsy this way, and Betsy grew up with a moral code that practically mirrored the one that the Bible would teach her. Everywhere she went, people asked if she was a Christian, but she smiled, shrugged and replied "I don't subscribe to any religion." People then asked why she was such a goody-two-shoes and she smiled, shrugged and replied "Because it's easy to tell what's right and what's wrong."
Eventually, Dick died, and Joan became a lesbian. Betsy married a man who shared her moral code, but he got run over by a dump truck a year later. She struggled through the rest of her life, working for various charities, and eventually created the cures for AIDS and cancer. Before she died, she started her own religion, a cross between Rastafarian and Amish - but really it was just a religion where you sit around and smoke so much pot you can't afford to pay your electric bill. She passed away peacefully at the age of 72, after drinking enough wine to put Jesus to shame and crashing her car into a lake.

To sum up:

Knowledge of good and evil is given to all men. By their fruits ye shall know them, right? GOOD IS GOOD. Period. You can say that there is no good without God, and that's fine. But saying that an atheist can't do good because they don't involve God is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard of. Plenty of good things have been done without speaking God's name, and plenty of bad things have been done WHILE speaking it.

I thought you were banned. Shame.

Good is doing whatever makes you happy and doesn't interfere with the happiness of other people. Period. If you need a more detailed description, I recommend Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics. While Aristotle's views aren't quite in line with my own, they're another good possibility.Absolutely and positively wrong. Just because religious people shout it all around doesn't make it true. You don't need religion to have morality.

I don't say this often, but I actually agree with Sassafrass here. We are essentially our own guides, whether we take our cues from personal experience, hearsay, history, literature, or in fact religion. We are the ones who choose the rules we abide by, and what we think is right and wrong.

Atheists may differ in their opinions on this, just as Christians or Muslims differ in the rules and values they pick up on, and the ones they choose to ignore.

From a sociobiological point of view, altruistic behaviour usually serves inclusive fitness (the survival of our genes), or the principle of reciprocity ("if I treat you well, I hope you will do the same thing for me"). To me personally, the reason to try to be "good" is simply because I think it's "my job" as a human being as well. Maybe that is the case because it's the way my parents raised me, maybe it's my biology, maybe it comes from experience, maybe it's just me. But I do know that there is some sense of right and wrong there, and I don't need a divine authority to hand it to me.

In the simplest way, "good" is basically what makes me happy; and interfering with the happiness of other people makes me unhappy (most of the time - I make mistakes, of course, and I have bad days, like everyone). What makes me happy is good for me, and often, doing something good for others gives me a feeling of satisfaction. So I guess you could say I do good things out of selfishness, for my own gratification - then again, don't Christians get heaven for it?

Now this is a fact.

I'm jumping in this thread because I wanted to see where the discussion was, and BAM! There's LordsSword running his mouth off again, and making Christians look like dumbasses.

LordsSword, check it out, you aren't connecting reality to your faith. You are assuming waaaay too much and it keeps coming back to bite you. According to the Bible, yes, everything an atheist does is wrong. But guess what, the same is true of everything that you do. Just because you are a devout Christian, doesn't make you right. All have sinned, and come short; even and especially you. Half of being a Christian is learning how to be humble and non-confrontational ESPECIALLY with non-believers. Jesus and Paul demonstrate this in spades. The only people they are contentious towards are other religious people who are spreading false teachings or defaming Christ's name by misrepresenting Him.

And, THAT is what you are doing, and that is why I'm calling you out. You are a disgrace to Christianity on these forums. You are constantly being condescending and preaching "from on high" down at everyone and expecting them to listen. All they will say is "fuck you!" And in many ways, I'm joining them even though I'm a devout believer myself, because you are the picturesque example of why so many people hate Christians today.

So STFU and GTFO.

Ok, I suppose this works for kids. Simple, easy to remember.
Lets look at the reality though.

My critics are not making any attempt to make me happy are they? They are in fact with premeditation trying to make me unhappy.
Your statement is a mere platitude that is trampled on by you & evey new post aimed at me.

Recognise this? Some call it the golden rule:
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The atheist is challenged by their abandoning of what has worked for civilization since the beginning of time: the impression that moral guidelines come from beyond the opinions of men.

The opinion that good=everybody happy system is proven to be a double standard that kids see right through.



Look folks, here is the golden rule at work.

Because this member & I have a rule book as a basis for working out our disputes, we both have a means to have unity despite our differences.
Our unity is wrought through our common acknowledgment of an authority of how life should be lived that is higher than our own shifting opinions.

Furthermore we have a basis for solving our problem instead of ignoring that one exists or the conflict degenerating to 2 people just getting their feelings hurt.

TheReverend and I can even strengthen our faith and knowledge through a prescribed process.
Matthew 7:4
How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
Matthew 18:15
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

I never said an atheist is wrong, they are "challenged" with their own obstacles that keep them from the ideals that we all strive for.

Life can be Hell too, no parent wants that for their kids, whats your system?

LordsSword, not even God himself would listen to your bullshit.

Only those who were taught through neglect have the desire to not listen.
I've have the role of a father and have had the pleasure of the experience for over 5 years. My stepson is an accomplished student and martial artist of 11 who started out as one of those diagnosed ADD kids. His temperament nearly got him tossed from his school.

Having been raised under the despotic whims of a parent who was an atheist before being shot in the face, I know how bad a person can go. I've seen things kids shouldn't be exposed to and survived to tell the tale, warn others and show that there is a better way.

I know my system works, my kids health and strength has earned the respect of his father who has thanked me himself for his sons success. You have your own ways of course, go ahead, experience and time will be the judge.

I firmly believe that LordsSword is actually the antichrist in disguise.

A very clever disguise at that.

Perhaps you are a good father, LordSword, nobody here is able to judge that, since we don't know you. It's the arrogance of saying that atheists are necessarily bad parents, which makes you unpopular here.

Apparently, he had a really shitty upbringing with an asshole father who happened to be atheist.

I wonder if he recognizes that his behavior is just him trying to get over his shitty parents.

Have you stopped to consider that it may not be working for everyone? That not everyone is happy going about with what they feel a delusion guiding their lives, everything they do?

I'm happy you've found Christ. I'm happy you were able to overcome what sounds to be a tough time of your life through his teachings, and the set of beliefs set around him. Honestly. I may not agree with what you believe, but that's entirely irrelevant. I respect what you believe, and am happy to see that you've found what makes you happy, content, whatever it is you may be looking for.

All I ask is that you show me the same respect.

But you're not worth respecting, Capo. You're a terrible person, a heathen, an atheist.

There are two things in the world that I can't stand. There are the people who mess up the there/their/they're words, And then there's the religious nutbars. Lordsword, I'm talking to you.

I really don't care if you subscribe to some book for your life. That's your choice. Just don't tell me that my choice is wrong, because we are all people, too. I hang out with religious people and we have quite the community. I see all this stuff, and being an atheist I shrug and go celebrate Christmas and Easter and I hang at church with my friends. Why? Because I respect the life choices that they have made, just like I support gay and lesbian types. You might say I'm less atheist than apathetic.

I could go around and tear down every sign of Jesus and God that I see. I could run into a church and yell, "You idiots are wasting your lives!" But I don't. I have respect for the people who are out there, and I understand my friends are happier with God in their lives.

What I have seen in this thread is a person who is the true reversal of what I know a Christian as: someone who doesn't love everybody. Why can't you accept the fact that other people find the world more acceptable without a big happy man in the sky?

You ask why we don't treat you the way we want to be treated. Well, now I ask you the same thing, and accept the fact perhaps your lens is a little tinted at the moment, and that there is nothing psychologically wrong with atheist people. I think perhaps in your case, it's the other way around.

Unless I am missing something, I am pretty sure Divest was being sarcastic...

I think quality people are quality people, regardless of spiritual beliefs.

1) Read the entire post much? That's kind of the point of my entire post.

2) Read the section where I referenced the fact that I was talking to Lordsword?

3) He's banned. 'Bout time.

1) If your entire post was clear to begin with, why did you feel the need to go back and edit the information in after I had replied? It wasn't clear but now it is. I am not getting on your case, I am just double-checking as I wasn't quite so sure.

2) Yes but you shouldn't have referenced Divests post as the focal point if you were purely referring to LordSword without mentioning you agreed with Divests post. It was confusing. I am just saying.

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Nah, unfortunately he's not. That's just the title Zeal gave him during his short stint as a mock-admin.

I changed it because, while I was irritated, I realized that if it happened once, it will happen again. I'll probably just take his quote out entirely.

Not banned? That's a shame. Still, this conversation's probably the most interesting this happening on this board, so I might as well stick around. ;)

Dear pissweak individuals of this thread,

There is no middle road.

Either you're with Jesus (insert a fictional character of your choice here) or you are against him.

Saying "oh I won't say anything so I'm not doing anything bad" or "I'm just going to let them the figure it out for themselves" or "I'm going to teach my children about the Crusades and Jihads" IS NOT THE MIDDLE ROAD.

You get NO CLEAN conscience with this. You are actively choosing to teach them one side of the coin and there ain't no three sides to this coin.

I am saying this because some of the pissweak characters in this thread are refusing to consider the weight of their words and the weight of their impact upon another human being: acknowledge what you are doing to your children.

You are not above this religion discussion, you can't be a bystander, you can't be outside of this:
Like the fella from Nazi Germany said "oh they came for the Italians and I wasn't Italian so why should I care?"

No, that's not how it works. You are not on the outside of this discussion and you get no clean conscience "oh, I just wanted the middle road."

Religion defines the rules of this game and the rules are pretty specific: either you're with them, or you're against them.

If you're too scared or weak to justify your position then you are a pissweak individual and you have no place to be raising children.

It pisses me off that you want to raise your children with absolutely no leadership in such a critical issue.

I am an atheist and I will be quite clear cut with my children: you are on one side, they are on the other, and no matter how much you think you're right, you are not on the edge of the coin: you are flat on heads or tails and that's all you can be.
I will teach them wherein and wherefore my beliefs stem from but I will not skirt the issue: belief and larger purpose is a natural leaning of every person and they will naturally want to gravitate toward a neat fairy tale purpose like Jesus.

I'm not saying that "teach them to critically think" is a wrong ideal nor is it an Atheist ideal: I want you to acknowledge you're picking your lot on heads or tails. Your cute clever reasoning does not put you above this basic problem: you're with them or you're against them.

Make up your mind.

I don't think educating your children about world religions means that you haven't made up your mind. It should be part of a comprehensive education to learn about Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Shintoism, etc. ...it's what we learned in school. And although it will be difficult for me because to be honest, all that condescending religious talk makes me sick, I won't teach them that there is some sort of war going on, an "us against them". Why not? Because I want my children to have friends, it's as simple as that. I won't lie to them and pretend everyone gets along, but I'm not going to tell them to be against any of these, either, because I want them to be tolerant and aware towards other people's beliefs. I want them to respect them as human beings - and I hope that they will be respected as well, although they may face some rejection.

Of course I'll explain my own beliefs and my reasons for them first, and make my point of view clear. When they are little, children don't understand the validity of different beliefs, either, so to make it understandable to them, my beliefs will be all they learn, and they will learn about them as "right". That's just what parents do. But if they choose to disagree with that as they grow older (and by the time they hit their teens, they are likely to), that's their choice. They can go to church all they want, as long as they don't drag me there with them. Of course I would be a bit disappointed, but that's life.

You sound like you'd be a kickass teacher or boss, but as a parent, life must be hell.

There is no middle road? What? Religion is not a political preference or even choosing between the black and white evil definitions that much of America might believe in. Religion is a perspective on the world and how they interact with it. Some people want a view on life where they need a supernatural explaination for the things out of their control, or the things they don't understand. Sure, that's fine.

I'm an athiest. I believe that Jesus existed, and I think that he had good stuff to teach. I'm actually pretty pumped that there are millions of people that try to be like Jesus, because he was a good man who had good things to say; his lessons are worth hearing and living by. But do I think he is the son of God? No. That doesn't mean that I have to swear off everything in the Bible.

There is a middle road here. It's the athiests like this that swear off religion completely that annoy the crap out of me as well, because they've become no better than the religion that they left earlier. I have come to terms with the fact that I live in a Christian country, and that I am a minority. I attend church with my family and I celebrate Christmas, because it makes them happy and mkaes the community stronger.

I can see you as people who rip down Christmas trees because, oh fuck, there's religion in my secular life. Oh, no. Get over yourself and realize that other people exist as well, and each has their own perspective.

I pity your kids.

LOL @ another LordsSword blowout. I swear when I stop back every few months to this forum the same shit is brewing each time. Anyway, to reply to the thread:

I can see where both you and neus are coming from, but I agree more with neus (though not harboring so much rage). I won't rip down a Christmas tree because it's religious. In fact, I'll probably use a Christmas tree during the holidays in the future because it's fun to decorate and brings in the holiday mood.

However, when it comes to meaningful things like ideas (because, really, how fucking meaningful is a Christmas tree), I stand on neus' side. I believe children should be taught to consider things rationally, rationally meaning weighing evidence against counter evidence and discriminating which is truth and which isn't. However, most people like to make little exceptions to rationality, such as, oh, blaming god for killing your child who was sick with cancer, or believing in a crucified jewish zombie sacrificial-lamb/man-savior that god splooged out one day.

Apologetics say I can't disprove that this is the way the world really functions, so they're off the hook; they get to believe what they want. Wrong. The evidence against the two above examples is blatantly obvious: there is no correlation between religion and whether or not your child gets cancer, and it is medically impossible to resuscitate a body after 3 days of death. "God did it" may be the answer to whatever argument I make, but it comes back to proof. I have proof that it medically can't happen, you have no proof that it medically can happen. Rationality is the opposite of believing things that can't be proven(see: racism, sexism); it is rejecting them and instead believing that which can be proven. We don't debate the possibilities of whether invisible-monkey-bird-demons are about to eat our face off, and for good reason. We can't prove their existence, and thus the idea of them never materializes into something we should be concerned about. Why the idea of God never received the same criticism is something to wonder about.

In my debates with others I've come to the conclusion that the real reason that anyone comes to believe in the supernatural is because, well, the alternative is too unimaginative. The ideas of atheism are sobering: no life after death, no god looking out for you (or trying to destroy you), the life you are living is not just a test for the future, it's the whole sha-bang. And considering how shitty many people's lives have been, atheism isn't going to be the crowd pleaser, the lift me up pill that so many other religions are. However, the place where atheism shines is in it's rationality, which is something no dogma-based system can attain.

The fault of atheism is the way it's message is presented (see: neus). Atheism can be presented in a hopeful, forward-looking context, but too often it spends time using it's energies arguing against religion instead of for itself (reminds me of a political campaign).

So to conclude, I do swear off religion completely. I don't swear off socializing, humanitarian efforts, basic traditions, or community strength (the things which religion leeches off of to sustain itself). Those are all positive things and need to be freed from their religious context. If I have kids, they will not be raised in a religion, and they will be taught to think critically and rationally. If I were you, Cellius, I wouldn't worry too much. I don't think harassment of atheists is a big issue for school kids (unless s/he wears shirts that say "Blasphemy is a victimless crime" to school). It seems to me that at this point in schools the majority of kids really don't give a crap about religion one way or the other. When they talk to each other it's about friends, food, movies, music, games, not religion. Unless your kid intentionally hangs out with the School Bible Club I doubt he'll have much to worry about.

Your argument is well constructed, but you may want to consider that people aren't 100% rational all the time. I think it's great that you want to teach your children to look at evidence, and encourage critical thinking, but you may still be disappointed. The toughest atheist can still have a moment of intense rage at something, think "fuck God" or "why me?" when their child dies of cancer. We can't understand everything rationally, there are many things we don't understand at all, and different people develop different coping mechanisms, different theories about their world of experience. Atheists are human beings, just like everyone else. Not everything can be proven, and sometimes, we need irrational hope to keep us going, whether this hope comes in the form of religion or something else. And sometimes, we feel irrational anger. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing.

I would want my children to understand that they can't always expect everyone to act rationally, especially when emotions run high, and that they don't always have to be the perfect model of rationality, either. I would want them to be able to deal with that, and not just view the world as the sum of empirical events and formulas.

The sum of empirical events and forumulas and irrationality aren't mutually exclusive. The Universe is a rather dumb (I use dumb in the same sense as one calls a computer dumb) place - it doesn't think and pick the most logical design or course of action, and if it was designed by some intelligence they did a rather piss-poor job.

I fail to see how 'the world is illogical' leads to 'teaching kids logic is retarded', much less to the implied 'teach them religion instead'.

First off, the raising kids debate I find is a little...pointless. If you've raised a child to be a smart person who, when asked, can identify their religion and why they believe it, then you've done well. If the child fits in with Christian mindsets, good for him. If not, good for him too.

As for what I personally think of religion for a religious perspective (as FallDragon and Traveller pointed out in very reasonable posts) I find religion to be a way for many people to fill in the gaps. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense, and for some people, it really is essential to their state of mind to think that karma is the hand of a big smiling man in the sky pushing the good forward.

FallDragon, I don't swear off religion, but most of it I do. It's enough for me to say, "No God," and never even waste my brain cells thinking about it. I'm not opposed to it, it's just there. But what it represents is the more important focus, because personally for me, I've seen some of the greatest acts of kindness done through religion. If that person handed me my fallen wallet because he thought it would get him into Heaven, it's not me to think if that's right or not.

Is the world better off? Maybe. Do I care? Not really. Only when I see people slamming either side do I actually step in (A.K.A. this thread). Otherwise, it's just a part of life.

P.S. Arainach: Big words scare me.