That's true. (?)

Play coy all you want, Aard. If you're NOT pretending you can't tell what I'm insinuating and aren't just wanting to be gay about this, just let me know. Suda51, Hideo Kojima, Fumito Ueda, aside from being Japanese, all three of those developers have something in common as far as game design is concerned. It just so happens they also share a trait of getting lost on the way to film school. It's certainly nothing good, either.

Well, uh, of course I understood what you were insinuating, but there's not much to discuss about 'hurf durf metal gear solid more like metal gear BORING'. Once again it's just a difference of opinions. Obviously, not everyone will like that kind of presentation, and that's fine with me, but I like it, and I like Kojima's style of magic realism. Don't call me gay.

That aside though, another reason why I'm excited about Guns of the Patriots is that I checked out the multiplayer beta, and I know it finally plays like a good game. I just replayed MGS 2 last week, and its gameplay mechanics were downright archaic. You can't even move while crouching -- in a stealth game. MGO, though, was just plain fun to play, even as a grunt with none of Snake's arsenal and gadgets.

It's not a difference of "opinion", Aardark. Look, when I'm playing a game, and the weapon I have equipped gets switched for a Pistol or Assault Rifle I put into my menu because of a cutscene, that's "presentation" getting in the fucking way of what I want to do as a player. Metal Gear Solid 4 is fairly playable, but there's shit the first time around that was extremely retarded to put up with. There's context sensitive information inside of cutscenes that you can miss if you skip them. The game goes out of its way to make you watch cutscenes, cutscenes begin to affect the game. This isn't a healthy mix, it's fucking stupid.

Yes, you can cite Metal Gear Online, but I'm almost done with the game right now and while it has some really great moments... it has some really fucking irritating shit. Specifically an overbearing "presentation" which is sometimes cool and sometimes really fucking stupid. And by stupid, I don't mean "I dun rike your stoly, Mr. Kojima." By stupid, I mean "I didn't want to sit through a cutscene that didn't have a fast forward button unlike codec calls, now I get to suffer through this boss battle because I just happened to ignore your bullshit exposition in favor of enjoying a rather playable hour or so of gameplay inbetween MOVIES."

For everything I like about this game, there are a million instances of "This isn't interesting game design" I feel like citing. Metal Gear Online is not Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots. It's Metal Gear Online. Just to be clear.

Well alright, so what can I say now? I haven't played Metal Gear Solid 4 yet, so maybe liking or disliking it is indeed not an 'opinion' but a fact, for all I know. Okay? You win? I just shared why I'm excited about the game: because I liked the presentation of the previous parts, and the gameplay mechanics in this one seem to be improved, so perhaps I will like it even more! That's about all I can say at this point, until I finish the game (though even after that, I doubt I'll feel like trying to prove to other people that they should enjoy it). I wasn't really planning to get into a big argument over this.

It wasn't about liking it, Aardark... Why does it have to mean I hate it? We get into the realm of game design or game mechanics or whatever else, and I just take issue with how this game might get cited as that "one great thing that finally did X, Y, or Z." "Post Modern Gaming" and the folks who associate it with guys like Suda51 and Hideo Kojima, seem to think it has something, anything to do with improving how we play games. When it's more about fusing another genre into the equation in ways that can really interfere with a person playing.

I don't have a problem with cutscenes, even long ones. But when you begin to try my patience and I get punished for it? That's horse shit. Switching my weapons? Keeping pertinent information in lengthy cutscenes that can't be accelerated? The former head of Sony has the right idea with the new Alone in the Dark. There's chapter select, and supposedly, just MAYBE a cutscene fast forward feature. So you can get to the pertinent info or scan along at your own pace.

But that's not to say MGS4 is bad because of this stuff. I had fun, bit of irritation here and there for what I said.

I agree with both of you guys. One, if you want to divulge vital info, let me access it easily and at any time; not in the middle of a long-ass cutscene that passes me by into oblivion. I was pissed about the length of these damn things after I first met Drebin. It's annoying. Two, fast-forward would also be a nice courtesy if I'd like to watch for some crazy shit about to go down. Listening to Otacon yammer is one thing, getting chased around by some fucking GECKOs is another. That's the kind of stuff I'd prefer to watch.

But I also agree that there's nothing really wrong with the game for those who enjoyed Snake Eater or any of the earlier entries. These are problems or quirks fans are pretty accustomed to, and the improved controls and excellent graphics only sweeten the deal.

And Aard, I play Metal Gear Online a fair amount and it's great. We'll have to add each other.

I enjoy watching the cutscenes from the mgs series. Mgs2 not so much but I do enjoy watching the scenes from mgs4 and some of the flashback scenes with the press of the X button look pretty nice.
I wouldn't mind a fast forward feature but I wouldn't use it unless its a second time playing through it and even then I can always skip the scene if I wanted to.
I haven't tried mgo yet but if the update really speeds things up it should be more fun than the beta brought on.

So, question for those who have beaten Act 2:

Shows a view of him in the mirror, I believe.

Not really.

I just finished the game couple hours ago and i'm truly shocked, awesome game overall and has replay value. It's really different from the rest of the series in terms of mood, what Kojima is trying to represent through Snake all this struggling and his battles is really showing off well. But like they said all the story and everything else wraps up nicely. If anyone has questions i can help or discuss when i can reach them, though i'm sure others will get to them.

Gonna talk about Act 3 for a bit..

Act 4, mainly about location..

Act 4 at the end..

Act 5..

Act 5, very end..

WARNING - HUGE SPOILER Ending..

Great game overall, up there was my favorite in the series next to 3, 1, and 2.

I don't think it has anything to do with 'improving' gameplay, per se, just like I don't think David Fincher or David Lynch have somehow 'improved' film past Spielberg or Coppola. They're just different. I mean, that's the thing. I don't even like killer7 or Ico that much. I have more immediate fun playing something like Burnout or Grand Theft Auto — so yes, in a way that kind presentation can interfere with a person playing, depending on what your expectations are, just like someone wanting to see a Jerry Bruckheimer movie but renting a David Lynch DVD by mistake will probably feel pretty nonplussed.

The point is, those games are trying to move in another direction, they're different from what you're used to seeing, and I like it, because it means that the videogame industry is becoming more interesting and varied, maybe more mature. It's not just about getting lost on the way to film school or whatever. Just because a game has many cutscenes doesn't mean it would necessarily work better as a movie, and it's not just about cutscenes in the first place. It is, as you said, about fusing different genres, and ending up with videogames as a real medium for entertainment and telling stories in its own way that's not quite the same as movies or books. In the future, the majority of games will still be straightforward action, or role-playing, or racing, but more will also be experimenting with something else, and that's generally a good thing, even if the execution is sometimes heavy-handed.

Well, I'm not sure what's up with switching weapons, but in the previous games you could skip the cutscenes and just get all information pertinent to gameplay proper by using the codec later. If that's not possible in MGS 4 and you can actually miss some critical gameplay information due to skipping cutscenes, then I guess that's a problem. Not for me, since I like watching all cutscenes anyway, but I can see how it could be annoying.

Sure thing, maybe we can get some Gamingforce matches going, after everyone's done with the main game. :) Apparently it's region locked, though. That kind of sucks, though I did order the US version at least.

Then these two things don't correlate. You previously said they do "interesting things" with gameplay, and I realize this is boxing you into that statement, but it begs the question... what kind of gameplay is a different presentation? Nothing they've done in this game, hasn't been done in other games. No, innovation isn't the mark of quality. Nor are all innovative things great because they are innovative. I just think this kind of statement always eventually leads to:

Think REALLY hard about what you're saying here. I love video games. I realize that's a personal statement, but I think it bears repeating when this kind of statement pops up. They are a "REAL" medium for entertainment. They are already versatile, already interesting, already thought provoking... in their own way. Ninja Gaiden on the NES? That was the dawn of cinematic games, the idea started there. It's only changed with presentation as technology gets better. Not a bad thing at all. Video games don't need validation, some of the fanbase just needs to realize that these aren't movies, aren't stories, and aren't books. Video games are interactive entertainment. Like any other game you've played, electronic or not.

They are a real form of entertainment already. If you think there needs to be lengthy exposition, cinematic flair, and thought provoking messages for this to be an entertainment form... then I guess you were never here for the game in the first place. At least that's how I feel about.

You're right, these games are different, the ones you've listed. But they borrow elements from other games and make them their own. That's why they're different. Some I feel succeed... others don't. I think you feel the same. The FAILURES are what bother me, because some idiot out there thinks their awesome plot summary provides an entertaining game. They want to write books instead of design and understand what makes a good game. That's what I mean when I say "Lost on the way to film school" or something similar. Their presentation is (generally) well thought out, stories that actually hold up. It's always been the game that I've pulled into question. I think the first Metal Gear Solid title I enjoyed playing was Metal Gear Solid 3. It is the best Metal Gear Solid prior to Metal Gear Solid 4 from a gameplay standpoint. I'm pretty upset that we had to wait that long for it to happen, personally.

Oh well.

There aren't as many codec channels this game. The game relies more on the player piecing the story together, but a lot of pertinent information is laced in 3-4 cutscenes back to back to back. It's more of a first playthrough thing to be honest, as a I said. Once you know how to win, the cutscenes are a matter of whether or not you want to be passively entertained. This is cool.

Christ, Sunny's one of the cutest game characters ever. It tears me up when someone treats her bad:(

Actually, I haven't encountered so many feelings while playig a game. The BB Corps made me very nervous indeed when I first saw them. "Fuck, I have to beat those!?".
Sunny brings both tears to my eyes and a smile on my face.

Well, I guess I'm somewhere in the middle of Act 4. Brilliant location.

Regarding a boss battle:


I can't wait to finish this game and see what it has in store.

Act 4 is full of win.

BB Corps made me nervous too, all of them like the bosses in MGS1 i think. Except for some of them it took me longer to finish than i guess usual.

I'll mix up the BB corps just in case no one wants to know which one they're gonna fight next alothough a couple are pretty obvious.

Laughing Octopus:

Crying Wolf:

Screaming Mantis:

Raging Raven:

MGS4 still lives up to the epic boss fights as its predecessors. Good job Kojima and Team.

TEXT HERE TO SCROLL SPOILERS OFF OF MAIN PAGE THINGER FOR DAGGET ~Skills

omg act 5 is pissing me off.


Oh and also putting on some of the beauty's face camo look pretty funny on snake ^^

The answer is to evade.

oh wait did i not mark my spoilers correctly o-0? Sorry if I didn't

And thanks simo I'll try that out later, what I tried to do was similar except I...


also not sure about anyone else but I kinda miss the codec chats. Not for the long sequences where they explain the same thing as the cutscenes but for some of the interesting tidbits we get to hear and learn about certain characters or places

It's because of the front page "latest post" thing still showing spoilers even when the spoiler tag is used if it's the first line of text in your post.

One thing: if you are aiming to get the statues for nonlethal takedowns on the B&B Corps (don't forget the FROGS in Act 1 have a statue for doing this), turn on night vision. You'll find the statue ASAP if you have that on; otherwise, it tends to be hard to notice.

Tips for the B&B Corps (note: for NONLETHAL takedown, get the nonlethal Mosin Nagant sniper rifle. I made use of it for all the bosses past Laughing Octopus):




And regarding Act 4 and 5's boss-activity. Spoilered in general to hide details~

Yup, what Forsety said. Since I can't actually do anything to fix that, the best I can do is push spoilers forward a bit.

The thing doesn't recognize line breaks, so just fill it with junk text or characters. About 30 will do if you need to push your spoiler down.

For Shenlon if you're still stuck..

I haven't got my strategy guide yet and starting my second play through, trying to go all the way non-lethal. I noticed the FROGs statue in at the end of the fight in the parking garage. There are some for the B&Bs? Is it after actually fighting them and you face their beauty?

I found it amazing that i'm seeing stuff i haven't seen before the first time around playing the levels mainly in Act 2..

As for the non-lethal take down of the bosses, you can still use regular guns like M4 custom or whatever to break them down until your fight their beauty right? I just assumed that's how it worked cause they aren't exactly finished off till the beauty comes after you. (sorry i didn't mark as spoiler cause this should be pretty obvious by now.. i'll edit if it's a problem)

You need to do nonlethal for their first form to get their statue (statue only remains for the beauty forms. You need to collect it before you finish them). Statues exist for all the B&B corps members in addition to the FROGS battle in act 1.

How do you get the camera? And is there a purpose to taking photos?