I'm going to go outside the PC scope for a second to respond to this....that is not to say it's not there for PC games, but I'm a bit better with examples on consoles...

I'd have to say I somewhat disagree here. While very few people are truly innovative, those who are tend to be stifled by those who are greedy, or those people that are innovative tend to have greed take them over. It's not that they don't want to be innovative, it's that they want money. It's already happened in the music industry. There are some artists who are not allowed to release songs because they're "not what the public wants to here" according to the publishers. They don't give a damn about what the artist wants to display, they only display what gets those greedy bastards money. Same with the video game industry, or so it seems. Most games that come out sell well due to massive hype or attachment to a famous name (Final Fantasy, Madden, DMC, whatever....or at least everything that has a number after it). I mean, seriously, most companies who have a successful game going will tend to make a sequel to it. These can be good or bad, depending on how much liberty they're willing to take. I'll be the first to agree that sometimes, some traditional games are always fun, as I'm a fan of Final Fantasy I - IX. But after a few iterations, it tends to become old. Final Fantasy kept it relatively fresh with new systems (Class Change in V, Esper System in VI, Materia System in VII, GF System in VIII, and Weapon/AP system in IX). This I can respect because it feels relatively new as opposed to Madden 95 through Madden 07. It's probably a bad game to use as an example, but it's the one that most clearly illustrates my point. Halo/Halo 2 play the exact same way, so while the first one is genuinely fun at times, the second one sucks balls in terms of new stuff. Fighting games also suffer from this, referring to reiterations of fighting games from a single series. I don't think the gameplay for Tekken ever changed from the original up to Tekken 5. Granted, I'm not a fan of Tekken and have never played much of the games, and am somewhat Biased, but still. Racing games also somewhat suffer from this to some extent, depending on which game you're talking about. Mario Kart series has kept things relatively fresh with the addition of new weapons, new hazards, new courses, and even new systems to keep things fresh. I'm talking about the jump from Super Mario Kart to Mario Kart 64 (3d upgrade, dropping the usage of coins pickup, dropped the feather pickup, added variations to the original pickups, a drift system, etc.) and from Mario Kart 64 to Mario Kart: Double Dash!! (an upgraded drift/powerslide system, new pickups/upgrades to pickups, system of tag-team racing (for better or for worse), new courses, now modes of multiplayer battle, etc.) and hell, even from Mario Kart: Double Dash!! to Mario Kart DS (again, new weapons, new drifting/snake system, new single player modes, I can't say much else since I haven't played this game yet.) Now you got games like Gran Turismo that start off pretty nice and then kinda decline in quality as you go. I'm not sure about that since I've only played the first one and seen the last one they released. And that last one they released, you didn't even race. Maybe I'm mistaken that Gran Turismo is a Racing Sim, but I previously thought and went into it thinking it was a racing game. And if games have plateaued already, I guess it's time for Nintendo to bail us out again, with their concept of changing how you play the game with it's new system, Wii.

Additionally, I think your chess arguement is moot at this point. Chess is a single game that hasn't changed at all. Of course it's still fun. If you took Super Mario 64 now and played it 1000 years from now, it'd still be just as fun, maybe graphically inferior at that time, but the fun factor is still there. I'm talking about a series of games that have evolved. A more apt example would be new card games that keep coming out. All the variations of poker can suffice as examples of what I mean. Card games in general have evolved over time. New games are constantly being made, so creativity hasn't been stifled just yet.


I think that's what we're trying to avoid, or else who in their right mind would buy new games if that happened?

It would be graphically inferior? Are you sure about that? 'Cause I'm not so sure.

Yes but they are created at a much lower rate. That the key point as I'll explain further below.


You may try to avoid it all you want but this isn't a lost battle, it's a battle that never existed. What you are saying is complete nonsense and just adds to convice me that humans have no sense of time at all, maybe that have the notion of days and weeks or even months but that's about it.
You are saying that in the comming, say, 5000 years (should the conditions allow it of course) we will continue to see the current rate (5/6 games per years?) of 'inovative' games just like today. Well even if it could be, then let's just add some 10000 years on it just for kicks, do you think it's possible to keep this rate for 15000 years? Or should I make it 67000 years just for fun?

This is a industry of miserable 30 years, a petty value even for human standards and we are already strugling with this 'need' for 'inovative' games and systems, how can you expect it to go on continously for 5 billion years (until the extinguish of the sun)?
It won't, not even for 200 years, just accept that you'll be playing the same Megadrive games when you are 80 years old and get over it.

As for buying new games... well you won't. Just like you don't buy a new chess set or a deck of cards even week you won't be buying a new game every week. This means that the gaming industry will colapse/crash or wane just like many other have, it won't disapear but shrink and stabilize into a (much) smaller size.

Relatively Inferior at least, compared to whatever will come out in 1000 years.

We are talking innovation here right? Innovation simply cannot be forced. Innovation will continue to come out, or should I say, the potential for innovation, at the same constant rate. It's what people do to stifle that innovation because of money. There's going to be stuff new that comes out all the time, it just depends on what gets published, which is where much of the problems lie. Those in the business get so caught up in the business aspect that they don't allow anything that seems risky to be published, which is a shame since with innovation comes risk. If you're not going to risk anything to try anything new, of course the thing won't go anywhere. I'm saying that it's not a lack of innovation that's going to kill games, it's the bloodthirst for money that's going to kill it. Just like how it killed much of music nowadays, it'll chip away at games, releasing only what gets them money and not what is a breath of fresh air. Why do you think every goddamn new game comes out is the exact same rehash over and over again, with possibly a different story behind it and better graphics? It's because those who publish the games are not going to bet on a loss over something that is guaranteed to win, whether it's because of massive hype or famous title. As long as we keep new possibilties open, then yes, I am saying that the same rate of innovative games will come. Now, if we were to drop any notion of trying anything new and taking any risks, then yes, innovation in this industry would die.

The need for innovation will always exist for everything that has ever come. Ever since anything came out, things need to be constantly evolving. Why do you think PCs have to constantly change architecture rather than just pump out faster clock speeds all the time? Innovation and new things will beat out old trends because they may work. Keyword being _may_. We'll take PC Hardware, We have slowly moved through different RAM types no? Remember what happened to RAMBUS RAM? Never got far off the ground. Intel has resorted to DDR standard and on to DDR2. Things will constantly change, whether for better or for worse. Change is a necessary part of everything. You will not be playing the same games 80 years from now because if you are, it means either 1) The industry has crashed, or 2) The industry is about to crash. If change is about, you will be playing lots of different types of games in several different ways.

What did I say about the Chess argument being moot? You don't buy a new chess set for every new chess game you're playing. Once you buy it, you own it forever. Same with the cards, for however many types of card games you play. The gaming industry will not crash, it'll have it's ups and downs, sure, but it will not hit rock bottom. That is, unless innovation completely dies out, which is just not possible, as long as somebody is willing to take the risk.

Haha, okay. You live within the same time constraints as everyone else. Stop trying to speak as though you don't. It makes you sound retarded. Besides, haven't you ever read a book or played a game? It's the people with limited time on this earth who always make the most out of it.

It's odd that we get the same thread every year for both console and PC games... Is it the decline of mankind like wut?

Must be the decline of mankind, it got me to sign up on gamingforce once again ;) [Nice avatar Kamui, can't beat X!]

Decline of PC games? I suppose it has declined, or at least changed judging from 1990s Electronics Botique shelves lined with PC games, to today's EBgames with a section in the back of the store for PC, totally dwarved by sony's console section.

The more I think about it, the Decline of PC games is probably going too far. Where most games and fans at one time for the PC would be found in the public eye [on the shelves]; Thanks to the internet among other things; PC games are now split between Massive/multiplayer games, [I'm playing Guild Wars lol as I type this], retro gaming [I bet good money there are people playing Doom or Quake multiplayer as I write this], Emulation [opening the gates to so many older games], translations [!!!], and modding [long lasting communities to newer and older games]; PC gaming is very much alive. Although, I imagine console games is where a majority of the money is; aka easy access and powerful advertising.

And as previously pointed out, although shelf games may be thin; internet access and a few good leads can lead you to ridiculous amounts of games hiding somewhere in google online~

For example:
http://www.romhacking.net/
- tons of translation links and rom hacks [mods on games like metroid, mario] i.e. Seiken Densetsu 3 [never released in US!!! but a great experience translated!]

http://www.mp2d.co.uk/index.php
- just an example of freeware works; [Metroid Prime 2d in the works!]

http://www.mwmythicmods.com/telesphoros.htm
- Morrowind, just an okay game? Or surpassing Oblivion in amazing. If you find the right set of mods, this can be so true. [pretty updated list on some great mods] (many more exist)

I know NWN, Baldur's Gate 1/2, half life1/2 have a million and one user creations.
I know a quick search on google will find tons of freeware games.

Er, so where am I going with this; PC gaming is very alive. I dare say much more is out there for the PC than ever on the console. But, it's a jungle out there. I mean in here... [help!]
EDIT: Having so many options probably hurts business, but you have little excuse if you get bored!

lol... Final word, I love PC and Console gaming, I wouldn't want to see either decline. :edgartpg: (what is this smiley?) [lol oh I see edgar nm [...]]

Money talks, everything else walks...

First: If you take a look at pricing, often multi-platform games are released at a lower price than their console counterparts. Second: These games drop in price much faster than their console counterparts. For example, I picked up Psychonauts for PC for $30 while it was still $50 for PS2. For non multi-platform titles, this still usually holds true, except for the truly grade-A hits like HL2, etc. Third: The PC game section in the game stores around here has dwindled to next to nothing. It's half what is what when I was an undergrad. Stores will devote more shelf space to their profitable wares, end of story. We all know sales do not necessarily equate to quality... but developers migrate to where the $ is so this does have an effect.

On a related note, before the Saturn and PSX came around, everyone was playing PC games, or even putting a few quarters into the arcade, rather than Genesis or SNES... It seemed like there were a ton of cool PC titles. Nowadays, everyone just plays HL2 on their 24" lcd monitor. There are great titles, but a lack of variety. Just my observations...

I think this is true because PC games are much cheaper to make and publish because of the relatively cheaper "dev kits".

Well, they begin lower too, so that might just be a later effect of the first point.

Damn straight. Around here in Virginia, there's only one section marginally smaller than the PC section and that is the Gamecube section (I play PC and Gamecube games....:doh: )

I wouldn't say a lack of variety, at least not with respect to genres, but more of a lack of a quality control. Many games have some of the best ideas out but implement them very poorly into a game that could be considered poor back in 1992.

Omni - good point on the first two parts, except I'm not sure that Valve spent less money on HL2 than MS did on Halo 2, for example?

And as for variety, I'm just talking amongst my own personal preference, which includes RPG's (besides Oblivion, I'm not sure I can even name a title that came out this year that I'm interested in, and Oblivion is frankly a flaming pile of p00 that won't run on 20% or greater of systems that exceed recommended specs, including mine, apparently), sci-fi/fantasy FPS (there are so many war FPS games it's getting ridiculous, but where are the new Unreals and Half-Lifes?) So, for that part it's just based on my own personal preference - some may find a good deal to like in the PC platform's recent line-up.

Yep, even though the PC has good stuff for it, new stuff is coming out so slowly that the ratio of crap to good games is extremely exaggerated for the worse. I'll be the first to admit, I do like some of the games that have come out somewhat recently, but I can't recall liking any game since Oblivion in March this year.

Hitman: Blood Money is something worth looking at.

It's not just that, PC developers are actually capable of creating games from scratch, so long as they're executable from DOS, Windows, or Macintosh platforms.

Which is also, unfortunately, a matter of money. Publishers aren't as keen to support QA teams that have game testers who are familiar with the code as opposed to a bunch of nerds that raise their hands whenever there's a problem. Professional QA teams have been going the way of the dinosaurs ever since publishers tried to follow in EA's footsteps.

The CRPG also died with Black Isle studios. The combination of Interplay's massive managerial incompetence and Troika's going belly-up has meant the death of the original CRPG. Now former Black Isle members are stuck making sequels to Bioware games that are much more worth playing than their predecessors.

S.T.A.L.K.E.R it seems will finally be released this next year, though, although it's not certain how much of a roleplaying element it'll actually have. There's also an X-COM style sci-fi tactical RPG that'll be released over Steam at some point.

Spore is set to dominate the way people perceive PC Gaming, and Paradox has announced that the tried-and-true Europa Universalis engine will be replaced with a fully 3D one for EU3.

I'm at that age where I've been around since the beginning of pc gaming. I think the biggest problem is that the pc game industry is flooded. I remember when i was alot younger, and I always hear about one game at a time. There would be one or two games that people were talking about. Now theres just way too many. So many games are coming out. So many games of the same genre anyways. Alot of people just play none rather than trying to pick just one to play at a time. So many games coming out nowadays are simply graphically enhanced clones of previous games. I'm finding it really annoying.

People seem more geared toward console gaming than PC gaming, at least where I live.

I'm a confessed PC lover and Console hater. I think there has been a decline in PC Games over the past few years, but an increase of the same game on multi-formats. PC Games are also better value as they are played for longer due to the ability for a large percentage of them to be multiplayer and to have user-generated content created. Just my 2c.

Yeap. What a lot of people do ( ;) ) Is end up pirating games simply because they don't have the resources to try out games to see whether they're engaging. Pirating is driving many producers away from PCs and towards consoles.

This forum (the PC Gaming forum) has been dead for quite some time I feel. I look at major titles coming out and all I'm really interested in is Bioshock and UT2k7. Those games don't come out until the fall. Maybe, maybe we'll get HL2 Episode 2 at the very end of this year. Stalker might be good, maybe, we'll see. It seems like oftentimes there are more good console releases in certain months than there are good PC releases the entire year.

If there were still as many good PC games coming out consistently as there were 4-5 years ago, I would have already upgraded my PC. Now, I'm actually holding off as there's no need. My rig plays all the games I have an there's no need to buy any until 2008 at this point...

Im definitely hyped about UT2k7. that shall be an exciting release. Naturally I won't have a computer that runs it for some time. But eventually I will end up playing it.

PC gaming is definitely in decline. I struggle to find the games at my local stores, they tend to hide them towards the back of the shop. Thank god I found Internet shopping.

They are releasing a lot of games for the PC these days, but most of them are games that most people would never dream of buying. Instead of putting time and effort into the games, they are just churning them out. So all we get are a few good games a year, whereas the consoles tend to get more decent games on them than the PC does.

There are only really a handful of PC games that interest me that are coming out soon. C & C: Tiberium Wars, Quake Wars (or whatever they are calling it now), UT2K7, Bioshock and possibly Crysis. But other than this there are no games that I have any interest in for the PC.

Crysis, Stranglehold and Blacksite: Area 51 are in my sights now. Might upgrade to Vista / DX10 for Crysis if the hype is to be believed. Alan Wake would be a departure for me but I'm willing to try it.

By the time Crysis is released (Sept 2007) Vista might be a worthwhile investment, but as it stands at the minute it would just be a waste of money.

Another thing that is contributing to the decline of PC gaming is all the proposed "Vista Exclusive" games that are going to be coming out in the near future. A lot of people that I know don't want to get Vista, which would mean that they would be unable to play some of the games that are going to be released for Vista. Hopefully Microsoft will see sense, and make the games available to play on other versions of Windows. Otherwise, the PC gaming scene will slide further into decline.

It doesn't look like there's too many Vista-Exclusive games on the horizon. Maybe a half dozen- please correct me if I'm way off here. Most of the games (Crysis included) seem to be compatible with XP/DX9. I think there'll be some Microsoft or Microsoft funded games that will be exclusive to Vista but I believe the majority will still support XP/DX9 in some form as I doubt developers will "put all their eggs in one basket".

That said it's only been the last two games I've purchased (Neverwinter Nights 2 and Splinter Cell Double Agent) that I've found that Windows 2000 was no longer supported. Unfortunatly I don't think that XP will have the same longevity in game terms if Microsoft forces DX10 and Vista too much. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

In terms of future mindedness, with Vista etc, it is really hard to see whether PC gaming increases or not. It all depends on the adoption of Vista. Right now, people that are in the "know" don't want Vista, or are unwilling to buy it. They better have some damn awesome exclusives or they won't be getting the enthusiast gaming crod.

In terms of right now, PC gaming is faaaaar from dead. Though the forum here on GFF might be dead, I think that is primarily because those that do PC game, have other communities that they are involved with. I'm playing Company of Heroes and I am active member at gamereplays.org; many others are involved with WoW guilds; I think more than one person has Oblivion on their PC; I haven't even mentioned FPSs yet (HL2, UT2k, BF2, etc)... The lists go on and on. PC gaming is far from dead, though it seems to pretty much be dead here on GFF.

Also, with the PS3/X360, we are seeing a upper-echelon of gaming, a high-class type of gaming. Expensive 1080p screens with expensive consoles. This is a trend that will eat into PC/Windows gaming because generally it looks as good or better than the PC equivalent, and that was one of the PCs great strengths.

PC Gaming as a commercial enterprise will die. The AAA boxes have been dying out since the turn of the millenium, and with smaller and smaller PC sections at retail stores it's a good chance that everything for the PC will go digital.

People are tired of the same old shit being recycled over again and again. It's a graphical crawl, and "next gen" is defined mostly by its bloom.

The way I see it, PC Gaming will go back to what it used to be, a hobbyist's pursuit, and we'll finally get to see a majority of games made by people who want to make them.

Looking back on my old post is funny, though. It's been almost a year, and apparently the RPG component in STALKER is annoying even though it's a solid game (it's shipping to me right now), and Europa Universalis 3 is phenomenal.

Still no real word on that X-COM-esque squad game, other than that it's not vaporware.

RPG-wise, none is better than Diablo 2 LoD (based solely on gameplay) since it was released back then, Titan Quest came close but didn't nailed it.