I don't think Galileo was too down with the whole Church thing. And don't you think it's possible that many of them were just into Christianity because they were brought up that way? :tpg:

I like how when it's another religion being violent, they're following it completey. But when a Christian goes and burns some teenagers at the stake, they're not following the tenets of the religion at all.

Well... somehow I don't think that anyone will deny that the Aztec religion was a big fan of live human sacrifices.

I'm an atheist. I attempt being religious when I was little, but I prettymuch gave it up around the time I was twelve, when I realized that the idea of God was prettymuch made up.
If you want hear about attemps at destroying, how about the Jews?

Need a good example of Christians trying to destroy a peaceful group? How about in the 'crusades', where pagans had to convert to christianity or die.

You clearly have no idea what the crusades really were.
Please be silent, and read a book that actually gives a more in depth analysis and FACTUAL treatment of the crusades, rather than the brief histories found in high school history books.
Or would you like me to give you an education in Crusade history?

Please give me an education.

The crusades weren't even about Pagans. Technically, since Islam is an Abrahamic religion, they are not strictly Pagan.

And don't you think it's possible that many of today's scientists are not into Christianity because they've been indoctrinated into thinking science has made it obsolete and as such, it's embarrassing for them to be spiritual in the scientific community? :tpg:

Although really, that is not just "possible." That is actively going on in the scientific world. We have a new dogma system on our hands, and no one wants to admit it. :(

let's not forget about the crusades!... Christians didn't seem to peaceful then, now did they? :poke:

Every major religious group has had it's bad times and bad leaders. Christianity is as guilty as any other religion for blood stained hands.

I myself am a Pagan as well, and have experienced the same 'coming home' that Megalith is talking about. I see nothing wrong with my beliefs and I see nothing wrong with christian beliefs. The point is that we all have faith, one way or another.

I havent been to church in a long time, and I do not consider myself religious. But when I did go to church, it set moral boundaries with me that have stuck with me for about 7 years so far, that I doubt I would have had without it. Although I kind of think religion is a crock, I am thankful it served me in this way.

The crusades started when the Turkish empire and various other muslim groups moved in on the trails from Europe to to Jerusalem, and regularly slaughtered massive groups of pilgrims on their way to the Holy City, and even within the town, with the purpose of driving out the "filthy chrstian infidels" and such. Beforehand, the middle east region, under Christian rule, was in a relatively peaceful state, allowing all peoples of all faiths to come and go as they chose.

Due to the violence though, Alexius Comnenus, then emporer of the Byzantine empire, wrote a letter complaing to the Count of Flanders about the problems with the Turks. The Count then passed this issue on the the pope, Urban II, who saw this as an opportunity to not only protect the citizens of the Christian nations, but also to unite Europe (which had been rather fractured and warring for a long time since the siege of Rome) for the purpose of driving these murderers of Christians out. And thus, the first crusade was called. Not to "convert the pagans" or whatever, but to drive them away, and keep them from killing innocent civilians.

Interestingly enough, the first crusade that was REALLY performed was started by an overtly radical monk named "Peter the Hermit," and he whipped up an "army" (if you could call it that) of civilians who would march ahead of the offical army and do something. (what they intended to do... I dunno :p )
This time is actually what people are really talking about when they refer to the Jews being brutalized in medieval Europe. (However, keep in mind that at this time, the Catholic church did not allow the scriptures to be accessible to the common person in their own language)

Before this time, the Jews lived with other Europeans in relatively good peace, although inevitable cultural tensions were there (the Jews deliberately isolated themselves and their culture from the surrounding peoples, for obvious reasons). However, the uneducated masses viewed the Jews as the enemies of God and murderers of Jesus, and other such uninformed crock, and thought that if the warrior crusaders could defeat "the enemeies of God," then they could do that at home. However, the Catholic church itself took an active role to condemn such acts, and had it's clergy preach against such violence and in some cases, set up safe houses for the Jews. Unfortunately for many areas, the people would not listen to reason, and either drove out the clergy, killed the priests, or just ignored them. And then proceeded to attempt to "purge" Europe of Jews. Then, they marched on to Constantinople, ransacking all sorts of towns and villages for supplies, without an afterthought, and when they arrived, the Byzantine emperor just arranged to have the shipped off to Anatolia, rather than cause a mess in his city.
Upon arriving in Anatolia, they pretty much murdered a bunch of Byzantine Christians, and then were wiped out by the Seljuks after holeing themselves up in a castle.

Then the first REAL crusaders came up to Constantinople, where the different nation's armies diverged and went on their own individual campaigns.

Anywho, I just realized that I am getting needlessly detailed.
Basically, it just kept escalating back and forth, with each group trying to gain control of the region over and over, and vendettas, wars within wars, and what have you. The rest is essentially unimporant to my original point, which is that the Crusades were not an evangelism campaign, but instead were a campaign to ensure the safety of the European nations' citizens.

And getting even closer to my original original point, these violent campaigns were not in conformity to scriptural doctrines, where such violence is considered absolutely unacceptable.
One can certainly not say that the same about the Muslim belief system; suggesting that is it built upon purely peaceful notions.

Fyodor, your attention to detail and knowledge of the subject is intimidating to say the least... Let's get back on track to what this thread is truly asking though:

What does religion mean to you?

I want to elaborate on this question for you. In an earlier post you mentioned church and relations with your fellow Christians is a very important part of the Christian religion... What is your relationship with Pagans, and how do you value it?

Sure.
To me all pagans are still humans, and deserving of the same amount of respect and love as any of my other neighbors. I feel that they are dangerously wrong in what they believe about the world, but that does not lower my respect or value for them one bit. Sometimes I value my relationships with non-christians even more than I do with christians, because of something like a "salvation factor." Basically, I care enough for other people, that I would rather see them experience the best they can get, and avoid the worst they may run into. (heaven/hell, and healthy/unhealthy life)

You're a Virgo, aren't you? You communicate like one.

any-hoo, I'm not trying to sway your opinion on your own religion, that would be rather facist of me... I tend to keep an open mind on all religions. In fact, I still go to church on occasion to listen to the sermon. I take the pieces from the ways of life and faiths that I find and do what makes me feel at peace. Christianity has a lot to teach that is good, but it also has a lot that I choose not to believe. Paganism has a lot to teach as well, and some of it I find very intrigueing to practice. I'm sure my eclectic nature is frowned upon by the christian religion, but I don't feel a need to make anyone happy with the way I pray other than the powers I pray to.

Faith is about peace of mind for me... I have found it.

Does anyone think that faith should simply be what you consider to be the truth, regardless of how it affects your life positively or negatively? Because that's basically how I feel. A lot of people see religion as something helpful. I mostly see it as something that gets in the way of what I naturally want to do. But I regard it because I believe what I'm following is the truth.

There's a part of me that would like to eat sweets and processed foods all day and nothing but. However, I know that this is a bad idea and I'm not going to do it. To me, that's what faith is. It's the truth that at times I may not want to accept, but I do simply because I know its the truth.

Nice. I have my birthdate broadcasted publicly.

(what a joker):juggler:

Of course, it's why I think pointing to it for either reason doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Religion doesn't have anything to say about science and science doesn't have anything to say about religion (well, I guess "shouldn't" would be better word choice there since people try to make it seem like they do anyway).

And of the tribes that were in what's now America and Canada? They may have been violent, but that was over land disputes and issues similar to what Europe went through for, what, a couple thousand years?

I'm curious as to how the Catholic Church has never been involved in violent acts, though. I mean, if they've never done any of that stuff, how'd they manage to build up such a fantastic reputation?

you love a tangent, don't you? ^_^

Thank you for your enlightening history lesson Fyodor D.

Ok, I guess I will have to look deeper into the religious nature of american indians. But I still believe that a large amount of them readily incorporated war and battle rituals into the acceptable practice of their religion.
As for the RC church, I won't defend, because they pretty much did the same thing that I believe these indian tribes have done. They deliberately (and impressively seamlessly) incorporated war and violence into it's acceptable religious practices.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Scientific is not synonymous with secular. Pop culture and pop science today seem to think otherwise, though.

Do you think there are people out there that think just because something's independent of religion it's scientific? I don't know of many people that think the UFO chasers or that timecube guy are among the scientific elite.

Fyodor, as far as I remember, the tribes that lived on the plains and further in the south tended to be more violent. However, the ones that lived in the Northeast were pretty laid back as far as things go. I think a lot of them just get a bad rap because the Europeans would have tribes fight against each other so they wouldn't do the actual clashing, kinda like what happened back in Korea.

Danka.
I will have to do more research.
(SO MUCH FUCKING STUFF TO LOOK UP!!! ;_; )

Being a Christian, religion plays a very important role in my life. I'm very much a believer and I will admit that I don't do all that I'm suppose to do all the time. Before I became a believer, life wasn't very kind to me at all (harsh is more like it). After I came to know God, life got better and the hard stuff wasn't so bad to deal with anymore.

I'm a Christian. It's been a long road to the point where I am now in my faith, but God has let me feel what I've needed to come to Him. I've been blessed with a fiancee who is also Christian, and everyday we continue to encourage each other as Christians. So yeah, it's something I want to be central in my life.