I like guns. I've had exposure and access to guns since I can remember. I got my first one when I was 8 (a good old 4-10 shotgun) and got my first pistol at 13. I've yet to kill anybody with my guns and nobody's killed me with them yet. I do like to go shooting on occasion, but i'm not a freak about it. I'd carry a pistol with me on long road trips and stuff just to be safe, but I've never driven around town playing Wyatt Earp.

I think gun control has really become a scapegoat for bigger problems. People have been killing each other since the dawn of man. People are going to kill people, with guns, knives, and their hands. Saying that guns are the issue here is pretty silly. People are violent creatures, hell, all animals are. The world is not a pretty place all the time. So get over it and quit all the senseless gun bashing.

Guns are pretty remarkable from an artistic and engineering standpoint. The efficiency of a .22 long bullet is pretty amazing. It's actually able to harness near 20 some % of the energy of the explosive inside. It's also amazingly accurate to some distance.

Wait a minute, who started this goddamn thread? Don't you realize that you'll never win over these people? Does anybody recall a time where there was a debate here in the PP over something like this where somebody said:
"Well shit, that was an amazing arguement. I'm just going to have to change the way I think about that one. Thanks for the enlightenment!"?

What about other forms of collecting? Like Coin collecting or stamp collecting? Sometimes people just want to have something for a collection, without any intention of acutally "using" it...

Actually, you'd be suprised... I think something like 50% of the US population are gun owners...

I dis-agree, but I don't think I'm going to be able to change your mind on this one...

And Gumby, you CAN hunt with a sword. I think I read someplace that in the old days africans would hunt lions with swords as a "right of passage". Basicly, if you can kill a big ass lion with a sword, then you're badass enough to be called a "man", LOL...

Skexis, I think you have the wrong idea. I've said this already, but when I'm talking about "gun ed" I don't mean taking kids out the the range and showing them how to shoot...

I would however like to point out that I've been shooting since I was about 5 or 6, and I didn't turn out to be a violent killer. Therefore I think there is something wrong with your argument...

No one is saying there aren't children who can handle a gun intelligently and with restraint. Hell, I've gone shooting myself, as young as 8. Enjoyed it. Would probably buy a gun if I ever had the desire to spend hard earned money so I could shoot recreationally. But how sure are you that your childhood is a representative sample of children everywhere?

Children can be taught by their parents to use guns safely, if the parents wish their children to learn how to use guns. But the parents that take the time to explain consequences probably won't outnumber the ones who stick the gun in a closet and hope that everything will turn out okay, and hope it will never see any use.

I'm not trying to imply that guns make killers out of people. In fact, I specifically said that it's not the "guns' violent nature" that causes the violence. It's a matter of probability, of increasing the availability of their use.

But I guess I am a little hazy on the idea of "gun education." Exactly what do they teach you? What the safety is? What the barrel does? "Point away from face before opening"?

David I thought they used long spears for that... I could be mistaken though.

MeTheGefling: I started this thread to get them out of my DD thread on firearms.

Did you even read what I wrote?
I didn't say you can't collect guns, I am saying guns can't be used for collecting. You pretty much contradicted what you said anyway, "Sometimes people just want to have something for a collection, without any intention of acutally "using" it."

What guns can or can't be used for is irrelevant to this discussion. Hemp making nice rope didn't stop its prohibition.

Yeah, yeah I know. Gangbangers already have access to light smgs like Mac-10's. AKs would make a bad situation much worse for the cops though.

We're supposed to steal credit cards, and like order pizza that they didn't order. Viva la resistance!!!

All too true. I think the Politizer is equipped with former Bundeswehr stuff though. Our Army is bound to have old caches of M-16's lying around. So that's money already spent. Who knows!

So, how do we know what Gangbangers have access to?

My mommy, who was a teacher. Retired now. At one point in her career she taught gang members, rapists, and various other juvenile offenders at a "special" alternative school. She had to be on the look out for the kind of stuff. 'Lest someone shoot up the school.

That's also the source of how I knew that five gallons of gasoline equals to about a stick of TNT. She always brought home stories about how her students were uhh talking about ways to make car bombs out of materials commonly found among the average household. Scary really.

*edit!* Of course she turned them into the police, but that still doesn't change the fact that they probably know how to do that sort of stuff.

Most police now carry AR-15's in place of the traditional shotgun. Other favored patrol rifles are the Ruger Mini 14 and the old M-1 carbine. Some agencies also carry the pistol caliber rifles from Ruger and marlin chambered in .40 or 9mm.

The idea that the police are regularly outgunned is a myth.

I was just clarifying the meaning of that statement to david not making a comment that all guns are used for murder. It's simply easier and takes less commitment to kill someone with a gun is all. Which could potentially make someone already inclined to kill more likely to. In say a home defense situation even if you were needing to fend them off with a bat while it is an inferior weapon you have to admit that you can generally stop a person without killling them while there's less of a guarantee of that with a gun.


Hell I'm not even against guns I just don't believe thay're as necessary or as much of a solution to some problems as soem people try to make it. The whole every problem looks liek a nail when all you have a hammer saying causes problems when people replaces hammer with gun. And I've known enough people who seem to feel that way to at the very least make me uncomfortable with just any idiot beign able to get one.

I wasn't trying to imply that it was. My childhood was far from average in that respect. In addition to guns, I've also had firsthand exposure to scientific research involving high explosives as well as commercial blasting, which isn't something that the other kids in first grade did on the weekends with their dads.

"What'd you do over the weekend."

"I helped my dad blow up a beaver dam, and next weekend we're going to turn some marshy area into a duck pond for the park rangers."

no kidding, although the police will claim that they're "outgunned" all the time. they claimed they were "outgunned" during the Columbine shootings.

Yes I see your point but it does not discourage me from having the desire of owning a firearm. I have received a lot of training with weapons, both from the civi world and from the military. I know how and when to use a weapon to defend my family and I. This is why I am very pro gun ed in school. If more people were properly educated on firearms we'd have less accidents, particularly with children.

Nor should it that was hardly my point. You can have all the firearms you want it's your choice. I'm just saying maybe at a minimum they should screen more carefully who can get guns and add a higher requirement of courses to get a license. I don't know exactly what the current requirements are I imagine they vary from state to state but they need to make damn sure every aspect of what people need to know and be trained in is covered before the person can lay hands on a gun. And I'm still not sure how much people need say an assault rifle for either hunting or self defence so I'm a might shaky on whether they should be allowable but I must admit they are nifty.

The rest was just clearing things up for david as he was misinterpriting the one Sin City quote as being some bullshit about using honourable weaponry.

Then how about you inform me, then? Honestly, I'd like to see some facts presented to this discussion and solid proof that legally purchased and owned guns would never be used for murder.

This news just in: Ancient Greeks had guns!
LOL! Oh wait no.

Look here's the difference between swords and guns. If someone came at you with a sword not only could you fight back but the fight would be noble and fair in a sense.
I say noble because only noble men were armed and when they did challenge and dual to the death it was a fair contest.
With a gun bang you're fucking dead. If you're regular home invader comes in guns blazing. If he even sees you reach for a gun he'll shoot you dead before you even get it from your bedside drawer, or your blazer pocket. You're a gonna.

At least if you're unarmed you can surrender. But hey home invasions everyday.

Also lol guys the guy that robs your home with a gun isn't a hardend criminal from the underworld with all the secret links to get the latest in illegal weaponry. They're normally young men who had a shit upbringing, dropped out of school and can't even organise opening a bank account.

The gangs, the mafia are the ones with the links, the ones who'll illegally obtain weapons and here's the thing, they don't come after you, they go after rival gangs. If you're shot by the mafia you're most likely a crook yourself and deseved it. I can assure you, since Australia banned guns semi automatic and consealable guns the vast majority of people shot are bikies and underworld figures.

Pretty much spot on.
In a country where lethal weapons are unavailible, if you really wanted to kill someone who have to goto pretty extrodinary lengths, lengths most people aren't prpared to goto. If you live in the states, you just gotta buy the gun buy the bullet and bang. Piss easy.

I'd hardly call the Ancient Greeks a free society.

So how do you feel about Dueling pistols?

Dueling pistols is pretty cool actually but people arn't up for it today.

I think it's because it's illegal.

Imagine Dick Cheney and John W. Snow in a pistol duel.

Dick Cheney shoots his second. Why lie.

I was just suggesting a modern version of the Hamilton vs Burr duel.

Rock, I suggested that you do some research on this matter before you continued this debate. Also no one in their right mind would say that no legally purchased guns would be used in crime. That

These were all found in a 2 minute google search.
Statics
Lowest violent crime rate in 30 years. Gun ownership is up.
1999 state comparison of crime rates
American Enterpise Institute for Public Policy Research

There were about 500,000 guns sold last year. Last year there were only about 31,200 violent crimes that involved guns. This does not take into account all of the guns that were sold in the past 100 years that are still in current circulation of the gun market. You do the math; VERY few of the guns on the market are actually used in violent crimes. Then when you look at the fact that our crime rates are going down to 30 year record lows after out assault weapon ban was lifted while the Great Britain which completely outlawed handguns in 1997 have sky rocketing crime rates.

A lot of good information

You wanted hard facts Rock, there they are. I'm sure there is much more information out there.

I didn't feel like reading the entire thread, but I read the first page or so.

Here is my opinion... I live on a farm of 1000 acres and we fire guns for hunting animals or for sport. I think that guns like shotguns/rifles/etc. are just fine. However I think pistols and military fully automatics are NOT! I live in a rural town of 628 and I have yet to see someone hunt with a pistol or an M-16!
The only incidents we here about handgun crimes are in cities. The people of NYC don't take Friday off and go hunting for elk somewhere in NY state with their concealed pistol, but when they want to feel superior (for whatever reason) they might be inclined to take it or even worse, use it!
Sometimes when I am really angery at someone and I'm talking to them and they are making me extremely pissed, I think, "If I had a pistol, would I shoot this person in the face?" Some times I really think about it, but 5 minutes later I would regret it and the decision for the rest of my life!
I don't know how I would argue on a basis of self defense. Using guns for the purpose of killing someone just gets to me.
It's kind of like the 2nd Sabrina the Teenage Witch episode, Bundt Friday. Jenny says, "I know the world would be alot better if everyone told the truth, but we all know we can't stop someone from lieing."
In this analogy, we can agree that just because you can't tell someone to stop lieing and tell the truth (by using truth sprinkles on their Bundt cakes!!!!) doesn't mean that we can just all lie and not feel any regret from it. Just like lieing is considered a bad thing (which it is!) and a sin for all of your Christian-heads, carrying concealed handguns and military special wepons shouldn't be aloud without a proper excuse (military or whatever).

Thanks,
Joseph

I don't think that "are you for or against gun" the right question (ot i'm probably misunderstanding... anyway)

If you look in canada, what was suppose to cost less than 50M$ (the gun registry) has become a 1G$ (and counting) hole. Ayway, do you really think that criminals register their weapons?

This man has just used a Sabrina the Teenage Witch quote.

I think he's trumped EVERYONE.