Yep, I'm with Yggdrasil on that one. I believe that a lot of children grow up not really knowing what they believe.
Children have their belief systems already determined many times, handed down by their parents and the children willfully accept. Its easy to do as we grow up being influenced by our parents in most respects, religion included.

There are good and bad parts to gain from religion. The consideration of course being the ability to recognize where the line is drawn.

Just do what I intend to do and tell them that if God does exist, he's probably an asshole anyways.

I think a lot of the time parents treat their children as objects rather than individuals and force a lot of their own beliefs on their kids. I'm not saying little kids should be making tons of adult decisions or stupid crap like that, but most children are indoctrinated into whatever religion their parents decide for them from early on. A lot of the times kids will just try things for themselves and decide if they like it or not.

I was forced to go to church a lot when I was younger, but I never enjoyed it and in the end I didn't have to keep going because I made it pretty clear church wasn't for me. I guess it's all about what you absolutely think your kids have to do and how casual you want to be about this issue. I'm an atheist and I never want to have children, but if I ever did decide to pop out some little bastards, I wouldn't stop them from going to church if they felt like it or any other religion as long as it wasn't harmful. Parents have to realize at some point their children are going to make their own decisions someday and that they can't perfectly sculpt them into whatever they wish.

I will finish with this. Santa in his current depiction is the same as anything a child can believe as "real" like boogymen, toothfairies, ect.
My position is to just be truthful and not set myself up to be branded as habitual liar.
The Santa thing may seem harmless but by our actions we teach what is improtant.
To her it was quite real. My solution fixed her problem & gave her comfort. What would you do?

I think children are too young to decide their faith so it's needless to have them mentally subscribe to a religion. When they grow up to a age where they have a firm sense of reality (knowing right from wrong, knowing that santa/tooth fairy/non-tangible fantasies aren't real), let them find out what they believe on their own instead of "brainwashing" them with your own beliefs when they are at a sensitive age.

I was born into a Christian family (United Church of Christ), however I deviated from that belief in high school and now I'm currently an Atheist.

Frankly, when I was a kid, I loved Santa. It was magic.

When the time came that I was old enough to reason that Santa was not "real", in the most mundane sense of the word, me, being the reasonable and grateful human being I am came to love and respect my parents more for it, knowing just how much effort they put into it, to suspend the illusion that just maybe there is in fact a great benefactor out there that does not discriminate between race, or religion, or anything else, but good and bad.

I don't lie. I don't cheat. I don't steal. I grew up close with my parents and all people around me.

I feel sorry for your kids. Instead of allowing them to believe that, just maybe, a little bit of beneficial magic (God fits this category too) can exist, you force them to cope with and directly accept a world wherein people hate, lie, cheat, kill, whatever they want; where people dangle food over the heads of starving Muslims and call it "evangelism during Christmas".

And then you wonder why your kids still lie, and cheat, and steal cars and beat up the neighbour's little handicapped boy.

Thank you, but sometimes I think "the truth" can be just a bit more harmful than "Santa".

Umm... I'm sorry, did you just say that people lie, cheat and commit thievery because they're told that such things exist? Ok, Huxley, do explain to us all about how a false sense of bliss and pleasantry will make it all true. Seriously, try and convince a few of us that lies about the state of the world will fix it. No, no, really. We can wait. We have the time. Go for it.

Or maybe an understanding of how the world works from a younger age might encourage people to do something to change how said system moves. Or maybe you're arguing about base human nature being changed by a lack of knowledge. Either way, I'm sure your reply will be a doozy.

If my kids decide to start believing in some imaginary being, or God, or whatever they may come up with. Who am I to stop them? Who am I to deny them something that makes them happy.
I won't go as far to say that they'll start lying, stealing and cheating if they don't get a chance to believe in such stuff. But I do think that at a young age, before kids can discern the difference between what is positive and what is negative to it's fullest extent, they should have as many positive influences (bliss and carefree imagination perhaps? belief in a jolly fat guy who brings gifts?). This goes a long way towards filling their hearts/minds with positive things, and if it's only positive stuff going in, then it can be assumed that positive stuff will come out.

While sentimentality isn't without its charms, I disagree. Lying to someone about a fat jolly man dropping down the chimney is nothing short of hysterically misleading. It certainly doesn't do much to form a practical mind in developing children around the world.

It is cute, but who cares?

Magic exists in many places. God doesn't need to be the only constant in the realm of miracles.

Cuz dey don't beleeve in deh 10 commandments?

Harmful only to a child. The truth doesn't go away just by covering it up with a lie.
Only in knowing the identity of 'harm', can it be avoided and dealt with.

Who said that God is the only constant. God fits into the broader category of 'beneficial magic'. Read before uttering robotic responses of a devil's advocates nature.

A doozy? Here's a doozy:

Forgive me for misunderstanding. I didn't realize we were trying to fix the entire freakin' world with this thread. I was under the impression that the topic was about family and raising children.

You want a fix? Try getting over yourself. The only real problem with society today is everyone's damnable fixation on themselves, and what makes them and them alone happy. You happy having sex with everyone you can without calling them after? Do it. You happy screwing people out of their money via credit card scams? Do it! Go ahead, no one's stopping you today! You get your jollies by anonymously attacking people from behind on the internet (oh, I'm sorry, I meant "tEh f!@m!ng N00bSxors")? Great! Contribute all the malice you can!

I intend to protect my kids from people like that.

Way off-topic.

***

On another note, thank you RainMan for a far more informative response.

Yeah, I agree. I just tend to think it's better to suspend their inevitable hatred of society until they're more prepared to deal with it.

Generally kids are rat bastards up *until* it's Christmas time, because then they can act good and think they deserve the presents they're getting. Of course, it's also vacation time at that point, so all the easier for them.

I would actually attribute this discovery to the early Greeks but like most scientific discoveries of the day it wasn't to be circulated until much later. I think I say something uncontroversial when I say religion did not begin with monotheism and certainly not the plagirism of Islam. Try to imagine the first few tens of thousands of years of life humans lived on the planet: starving to death, dying in terrifying natural events, dying of diseases which would have been entirely inexplicable, fighting over food and land with other tribes. You can fill in the rest of what life must have been like with your imagination. And certainly having Gods all the way. Worshipping other animals at a very early stage. Which incidentally persists today. I really should not have to provide examples of knowledge humans have managed to win for themselves. To credit religion for these advances seems at best absurd. Religious persecution, in the year 2007, is still trying its best to limit medical therapies and scientific understanding.

Santa Claus: An all loving, all knowing, fatherly figure who knows exactly when you are behaving good or bad and can reward you with gifts for behaving well or punish you if you have not. This is sounding familiar. And much like God, both are non-existent. But think of the implication of this nonsense. It is as far as I'm concerned the sinister attempt to make religious belief palatable for children. Of course children don't understand religion, so why not create a Sesame Street character, keep the authoritative principles but toss out ressurections and immaculate conceptions and the theological baggage and call the whole thing Christmas. And this has a further implication. How many children live (in North America) in low income families who's parents simply cannot afford the expense of this ridiculous celebration. What are these chidlren to think when their pine tree doesn't have so much as a piece of tinsle dangling off it? So my question is this. Is it ethical to lie to children and train them to believe things which are not true? I would submit, no, it's not.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realise that walking up to you and saying something in a public forum I knew you would read counts as "from behind." I imagine if I'd called you a cunt to your face, I'd somehow be talking behind your back, then?

Also, you're an idiot. Feel like screwing people out of money with credit cards? You can't do it, because it's illegal. It's called a law. As for fucking people in a casual fashion... on yeah, the world would be a miserable place if casual sex wasn't repressed by conservative morality. No one would be happy and less prone to jealousy and idiotic concepts of possession of a person. And as for "flaming" you? I demand a certain level of intellect, mate. If you hadn't come barreling in with a poorly supported and wickedly poorly thought out argument, you wouldn't have been tagged. But I get the impression it's about all we'll see out of you.

You intend to protect your kids from different views of the world? Thank god I'm not your kid. You should home school them, too. Really limit that perspective thing. Dangerous, that.

Who said anything about shielding kids from different views? The whole point of Pretzel's original post was just to say that you shouldn't shield them from such things as Santa and God. Don't force it on them I guess, but don't feel like you can't teach them about it either.

He's talking about selective morality, don't delude yourself that he's talking about open access to information.

Here's how I understood that:

Everyone is fixated on pleasing themselves. They figure 'Hey, I wanna have casual, uncomplicated sex with no strings attached? Yah, I'll do it' and not feel guilty about it. It's not so much the act of sex itself, but the general idea that everyone is out to please themselves and only themselves. That everyone is fixated on doing what is best for them in the long run.

I don't know if he's saying "Oh, can't let my kids know about that" or if he's saying "I'll encourage them not to take that path, and explain to them why I don't think they should, but in the end I'll have to accept the fact that they will be free to do as they please. I just hope they respect me in what they do"

I feel sorry for you if you consider yourself rather brave for being so bold on the internet. Frankly, I find that people like you simply do it cause they don't have the sac to be an asshole in reality.

And besides, what the hell have you even contributed to this thread, anyways?

Actually, no I didn't. I was alluding that people grow up to lie, cheat, and commit thievery when it's all you subject them to. The world's come to a point where sometimes I think imagination is the only escape from all the bullshit. But nonetheless, lying, cheating, and stealing is all you ever subject someone to, it's all they're ever going to know.

Besides, who's a better role model? Fictional Santa Claus? Or Britney Spears?

Oh, and seriously, don't kid yourself that your child is gonna simply know better than to look up to someone like that.

:twitch: Brilliant follow-up.

Oh my God!! Rules!! Better run for your life!!

Weak.

I'm not talking about selective morality. I'm talking about letting your kids have a little imagination! Open access to information? Where the hell did I say I was going to deny my kids that?

I intend to protect my kids from morons like yourself that are too stubborn to see any value in anything but their own judgment. This isn't even a debate anymore, it's a debacle!

I'd say that in all of the blathering babble that you've spilled into this thread, this is about the only worthwhile thing you've said. And even at that, it's weak. Children don't strive to change the world. A nine-year-old doesn't look at the state of the world and think to him/herself "Hrrrmm, I wonder how I can fix this when I grow up." They conform. They emulate. That's it. Kids accept their environment for what it is. It isn't until a certain level of development is reached that they even realize that they can alter the things around them.

You wouldn't know intellect if it smacked you in the head. Not that it ever will, so long as you keep it stuffed up your arse.



If you have something to contribute, do it. Otherwise, stop fucking around, and quit following me. I'm done with this.

Yes, I consider myself bold because I countered your comment about it being some sort of sneak attack. Get a grip. And as for being an asshole in real life, son, people around here know me better than that. Ask your boy Smelnick.

Well I debunked your bullshit, for a start.



So you're basically arguing nurture vs nature, and think that if we don't talk about Santa Claus, then they're going to only be exposed to the real world. Which is nothing but thievery and deception? Yeah, nothing good ever happens ever in the world. Ever. Not ever.

Who's a better role model? Santa Claus or someone who actually makes a difference in the world?

Wow, yeah. That would hold up, except for the fact that you're acting like it's completely acceptable and there's no part of life that is against it. Oh my god, logic!! Run for your life!!!


Oh yeah, not selective morality at all. CASUAL SEX IS BAD!



Yeah, one day we'll compare academic standing and you can laugh and talk about how that doesn't matter when it comes to intelligence.



Yes. If you teach them that the environment is fixed. And where exactly is your degree in child psychology? Yeah, no kid ever took up Amnesty International letter writing or anything to try and change things. Misguided as it might be. You're really used to people just taking your concept of things as legit, aren't you?



Big kid's can use curse words. And you're right, I have no concept of the intellectual. I don't live in that world at all.



If only I believed that for a second.

Actually, i think it would be better for everyone of people practiced a certain amount of apathy and selfishness. Really, most societal problems stem from too many people trying to get up in other people's business; trying to make everyone else conform to their wants and desires, instead of just doing "what makes them and them alone happy". People care too damn much about how other's act and think.

then again, i'm a libertarian. actually i'm an anarchist, but i like libertarianism just as much.

and now that this thread has served its purpose, long ago, perhaps we should move on?

Believe it.

Yeah, but aren't most people just trying to make others conform, only so that they themselves can feel more righteous themselves, and in the eyes of others with similar beliefs? It's certainly not out of concern for the convertee's well being... Usually, anyways.

Besides, there's too many groups of people out there that get their jollies only by butting into other people's business. ie: Jehovah's Witnesses.

if you want to start breaking it down, then eventually it can be said that everything is purely self motivated. everything.

Also, those kinds of people seem to want others to conform to their ideological system because they truly believe that it is the one and only way to behave. And indeed most of those peoples are getting up in your business because they are concerned for your well being (which is at risk because you don't follow their ideology). They consider that a selfless act, in an attempt to save your soul, or your peanut butter or whatever the hell it is they try and save.

Ok, if you're going to single out one religious group, you sort of have to do them all. I don't much care for christians or catholics or protestants or baptists butting into my business either.

hope this helps
 

I was personally brought up to believe in many religions. It made me nothing short of mad. You most definitely need to sit down with them and explain to them exactly what it is that you believe, but at the same time make sure your not coming on to strong. My dads family is Jehovah witness and my mom is catholic. They never sat down with me and both family's made me go to church which i grew to hate. As of today, i hate conformed religions of any sort, but then again i never got the chance to hear other religions referred to as anything good. As for them being outsiders, people arent too focused on religion in schools nowadays and i dont think that they would get much guff. So just sit and explain what you believe and make sure to tell them that they dont have to believe the same and i think you should be fine.

So, are you going to protect them from you?