If ALL of you people promise to cut out the name calling & harsh statements, I will gather my sources and present them.

If not I can only assume that what I provide will be a platform for more ridicule.

I am showing where I am on the landscape of myriad beliefs and a course to a defined concept of virtue. This is what my religion means to me and this is what a christian is supposed to do.

Can you or anyone else here do the same?

All I can see right now is a body of people that slam ideas but present no particular source of their own (with quotes or statements) as their guide for the concept of virtue. Its easy to walk around with a hatchet and destroy things but what do you build your life on?

Secular humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You're welcome.

Good for you, you are showing where you stand on the pedestal of christianity, that's fine and dandy, that's wonderful news.

And about 50 years ago to when christianity began, you would probably be looked upon with admiration. But you see, in this day and age people see through all the bullshit, we've become smarter than the average "flock" and realized that there are too many contridictions in that little book of yours to have any merit on why we should build our life around it. I certainly don't wish to be a hypocrite, hence I don't follow the bible.

As I said before, in my last post, I'm pretty sure you have just quotted Sitting Bull.

I have just one, miniscule question for you...What right do WE have as people to tell people what to think, what 'moral' rules to follow? I'll admit, most things the bible teaches is to love, and not judge...to not hurt the fellow person...but...once again I'll be damned if only about 2% of people who follow that book actually live that kind of life.

The other 98%, well...

"You don't read the bible? Oh FUCK YOU...Go to hell ya blasphemous bastard"

This is the second time I've seen you take the stance that only christianity provides a moral basis for human action. Do you really think that without your religion, which is young compared to many, the world would fall into anarchy and cruelty?

This is why I say you're uneducated. And yes, do explain to me how the earliest civilizations all practiced this universal concept, and I will slap you with 100 academics who will tell you no universal exists, and that you're an amateur if you think it does. Not smart.

At the risk of sounding like I'm siding entirely with LordSword (which I'm not), Christianity actually began roughly 2,000 years ago with the teachings of a man named Jesus. Whether or not Jesus was who He said He was is up to the individual to decide.

LordSword: Not everyone needs some kind of ultimate platform to build their lives on. Morality is not an absolute concept for everyone, it's not that hard to come to that sort of realization. People can be good without being Christian - even the Bible attests to this fact. I see this in people all the time. Athiests aren't stupid or evil, they just have a different belief system, and trying to say they can't be moral because they don't have some sort of higher guiding source to direct their lives is just plain stupid.

And assume for the sake of this paragraph what you said about spiritual concepts since the dawn of civilization is true. Why does the fact that people have believed something for hundreds, or even thousands of years, make it true? A common example is how people once believed the earth was flat. Just because people believed this did not make it true. I am not commenting on the ultimate truth of your statement - merely the flawed reasoning behind it. The "correctness" of concept or idea is not determined on how many people have believed in it for however long a time.

Ok, now we are gettin somewhere. What does this mean to you? How has humanism proven to you to be superior in its definition of virtue?

Can anyone else lay down their hatchet for a moment and share their position?


The bible clearly defines what it means to be a Christian. If you see a person claiming to be a follower of Jesus and then acts like a hellion you can't blame the book. This is the stregnth of the book its a guide to set believers straight. The person acts the way they believe and if its ungodly behavior that person doesn't follow Jesus Christ.

Dont let a few bad people undergird prejudice.

Consider the previous posts and see if you can find love & compassion linked with the stated beliefs of the people who typed them in for me to see. Let that be proof of my position.

* Need to test beliefs - A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.

* Reason, evidence, scientific method - Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.

* Fulfillment, growth, creativity - A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.

* Search for truth - A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.

* This life - A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.

* Ethics - A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.

* Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

Humanism is based on things like logic and reason, rather than tradition and dogma.

I know, I guess I just worded the statement I made above the wrong way, what I meant was that entire gap of time when it began, to about 50 years ago, that's when he would have been praised or something. My bad :eagletear:

Additional Spam:
Then you have to admit, if only 5% of the people who actually read the bible, and follow it are doing it right, then the book isn't doing it's job, is it?

*Hands clapping.* I like your reply. Thanks for breaking it down in simple terms.
Based on my experience of your humanism my only complaint is that it fails to have a central vehicle for calling people to some form of standards in ethical conduct.

I read the part about life & ethics but I have yet to experience your actions that express your commitment to such concepts. What I mean by this is the plain fact that when you see a person being abused (such as the verbal forms leveled against me) you did nothing to stop it. I saw no statement that called for a higher standard to which the other members here should strive for in the treatment of their fellow man.

I would expect this from Jackyboy the nihilist but not from someone who has more definition of ethics in their beliefs.

We can argue all day on the fine points of information, but its how we live out what we say that tells others what we believe.

My religion means calling people to a higher standard and stopping to take the time to consider how your neighbor feels. Have my statements ever been an attack on the person of my fellow members?

Yes I ask the questions, yes I have opinions but I never try to do it in a way that is intended to do harm. Jesus did the same thing and look what happened to him. Has anything really changed in 2000 years?

I think it is doing a good job. Its sifts the believers from the nonbelievers.

If that's your definition of abuse you should toughen up. My friends and I are often far more cutting and insulting in our remarks about each other.

Also, this is the internet, who takes anything said here to heart?

No, but I think you aren't being empathetic enough. I'm not saying that insulting you needlessly is justified, but you might consider that, oh, your beliefs and our beliefs (the majority of the people here adhere to some sort of secular humanism) might be similar or different, but regardless, it's the human condition to have a tendency to preach, rather than act.

Christianity, in its lifetime, has stressed SO much the primacy of faith over works that Christians have a tendency to do likewise in their life. Rather than turning the other cheek, you've been asserting your position using "evidence" we don't believe in, and reprimanding us for being "mean". "Have my attacks ever been an attack on the person of my fellow members?" No, but you're passive-aggressively assuring us we're hellbound and - worse - we're being "bad people". If you'd stop to think that Christianity, while hardly persecuted (it's a majority) is certainly DISLIKED by non-Christians for its perceived hypocrisy, you might come at us in a more pleasant, less demeaning, tone.

Toughen up? Lets read this again-->Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.

We here are good at the exchange of ideas part, but what about good will & tolerance?
It appears that your belief system requires that people that dont measure up to some standard of "toughness" need to have the good will and be tolerant and not the folks who are able to measure up.

I'm only using the standard by which many here measure christians by.

I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. My position is not ment to say that I am a better, smarter, more virtuous person than anybody else.

My religion means looking at myself, seeing my personal faults and dealing with them first before I present my case for virtues. Earlier in this discussion a person asked me about pride being a sin.

Without going into the specifics of of pride and how it works on a biblical level, I will say that I am a man plagued with a host of issues that threaten to undermine my life & spiritual developement. I am a messed up person who believes that I need help because I have tried being the "best" I can your way and discovered that I fall woefully short of even my own goals.

I have however found help in a bible. Its straight forward critisism of the human condition speaks to me with accuracy my state and the state of the folks here. My belief that Jesus is my Lord & Savior isnt just some fanciful notion that I just tell folks to make myself feel good. I really take it seriously as if God Himself is watching & working in my actions right now. With this mindset my perspective on how I approach problems and life in general is an improvement on the ways I lived before this paradigm shift.

Even though this is the internet I am still obligated to care because my God would want me to. My religion means to pursue virtue at all times in all situations.

I had nothing but goodwill and tolerance when you first started posting, but your constant refusals to back up your arguments with any sort of evidence has eroded any goodwill I once had. I will be tolerant and have goodwill to people who deserve it.

If I were to debate a theist and refuse to explain any of my arguments or offer any evidence for them, and instead repeatedly trot out the same old, worn-out arguments that he has already questioned and/or dismatled then I would say that he is quite entitled to get annoyed at me.

I do not believe that there is a god. There is only one existence I can be sure that exists, that is my own. It is difficult for me to comprehend whether or not any of you actually exist or are simply a part of myself. Hence if i were to believe there is a god, it would by myself.

How do you know you exist?

So we have to measure up to your standards to deserve some of that good will you were talking about?

I may never measure up to the standards of the folks here cause I can't even measure up to the standards of my God on my own merit.

This is why I depend on his provision of the sacrifice of His son Jesus. Jesus died to fill the gap that our inadequacy creates between each other and our creator. Because of this generous provision I never insist that people need to be what I expect them to be in order to have my respect.
(Matthew 18:21-35 Colossians 3:13)

I know because the people here respond to me.

My religion means wisdom & discernment through the methods of God.
(Romans 12:2)

You were afforded goodwill but threw it away by being constantly infuriating and obtuse in your posts. Yes there is a standard for my goodwill and tolerance, it is not unconditional but rather depends on people showing that they deserve it. Your constant evasion of questions and repetition of past arguments has shown me that you don't presently deserve and instead I will withhold it until you give me a good reason not to.

The stadards of my fellow posters are much lower than the christian god. We merely ask that if you make a point then to include some logic and reason in it. We don't ask that you are perfect even though we made it impossible for you to be.

Ok. Time to get to the logic and reason. To wrap up what religion means to me I'll finish with "purpose".

The Christian walk has given me purpose in living that the "get tough" & "Get a life" philosophies lack.

I am aware of the conditioning that demands that if someone thinks outside of the "accepted model" they are to be cast out, ridiculed & punished. Some folks here find purpose in this.

Before the bible, my perspective was alot like yours.
The self made man, capabale of anything, master of my own fate, ect.
I was groomed to follow the footsteps of my parents by constantly being immersed in their hedonistic lifestyle. Eventually I did live their way.

I know where many of you are comming from, because of my experiences I fear where many of you are headed but thats beside my point.

As a Christian, I feel that my religion offers a purpose that is superior to any other lifestyle in virtue.

From my perspective the prevailing philosophy here is to persevere in becoming as crystal hard & numb as you can to life. I see it in the lack of concern for others in the posts.

I ask what purpose do you serve in your philosophy?

My puropse has been to show a better way than you know, not provide some proof or cunning argument. Through our discussion my purpose has been aimed at your hearts just like the bibles teaching aims at the human heart.(Ezekiel 11:19)
The reason my purpose is aimed at your heart (the place in you that drives your desires & actions) is because even if I was to pray and an angel tapped each of you on the shoulder the proof would only change your mind.
I have seen it first hand with an agnostic friend of mine and read plenty of examples of it in the bible of how this tactic fails.
My purpose has been to present an alternative to an earthly hell that leads to a spiritual one.

The classic farce of humility. It's funny how Christian like touting how they don't measure up, yet they claim their beliefs are eternal truths forever more.

LordsSword, by being Christian you are being completely egotistical and self-absorbed whether you want to realize it or not. The religious, by definition, require a self-absorbed view of the world where they are the singular holders of sacred truths. So at least cut the humility act, please.

I admit being self absorbed. There is no denying this.

The bible cant be found as the basis of the fault you pointed to.
The book teaches against such an attitude.

There are many more faults that can be found in my character but I never claim that I personally have the answers to remedy my issues.

Again & again I state that my answers have been found in the bible and that I rely on it & fellow believers to strengthen me in my personal weaknesses.

Christians often say they have sacred truths because they have experienced improvement from following biblical teaching.

You have only yourself to blame for the replies you have been getting. Time and time again you have been asked to back up your arguments with evidence and instead of doing so you have started claiming victimisation.

How exactly were you groomed? I was immersed in my parents lifestlyes but as an adult I have never lived life according to anybodies beliefs but my own. You seem to be rather weak-willed.

Name one virtueous act that cannot be performed by an athiest.

My 'prevailing philosophy' is that there are a hell of a lot of people who have much tougher lives than I do, so to complain about anything in my life is just selfish. Instead of complaining about things, I do what I can to change them.

Look at my previous post about secular humanism.

You've never given me the slightest reason to believe in this. I refuse to make a 'leap of faith' for Christianty just as I refuse to make a 'leap of faith' for a deposed Nigerian offical who needs my help to launder money.

You should take a basic psychology class, because your understanding of how things work is woefully inadequate.

Examples please.

Yet they remain curiously unable to substantiate these claims.

Please cut out the Argumentum ad nauseam because it is becoming rather tiring.

I've only stated what my religion means. I dont need evidence for that.
I suppose I have gotten what I have expected.
John 15:19 If you belonged to the
world, the world would love you as its
own. Because you do not belong to the
world, but I have chosen you out of the
world-- therefore the world hates you.
My religion means doing what I have done knowing what will come.

Sincere prayer to God. Not virtuous to an atheist but to the rest of the world its a thumbs up.

I have seen a few views of courage here in this thread, where is yours? What will it cost you to just ask Jesus to forgive your sin?

I'm am expert at this am I not? When patience for this thread finally collapses from fatigue I will know that God is finished with it. Until then I will state in every way possible what my religion means to me.

You have on countless occasions also maintained that you are right and everyone else is wrong. For that you do need evidence.

The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclus-
ively for them that believe in it. Further,
the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for them
that believe in it on the supposition that
they'll go there if they don't.
HBT; The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1

One of my best friends is a Christian. He was president of the Christian Fellowship at university and goes to church many days of the week. He is also universally liked by thiest and athiest alike because unlike some people he does not intentionally provoke people in order to confirm his own biases.

How has prayer ever helped anyone other than by being a rather childish placebo. I'm afriad you'll need to do a little better than that.

What in the blue hell does courage have to do with anything?

£1 billion, I will accept a cheque.

It's not something you should be proud of.

LSword, if you really want to non-fundamentalists to have any respect whatsoever for you stop being such a conceited, cowardly, infruriating, dense, passive-agressive, obstinate, idiotic, bragging, self-righteous, childish, foolish zealot.

Wouldn't it be more prudent to ask the person I've actually sinned for forgiveness? Seems a bit odd for them not to be the determining factor.

Not in this context. We need a new thread.

By its nature the gospel message is confrontational. Hence the reason why we are at this point. Ask your friend if he has ever been given a hard time about his faith.

Its still virtuous to give a placebo if its the best that you have.
Dont complain about the remedy if it works.

To embrace the concept of God & his promises with no proof requires courage. The Bible & Christian history is replete with examples of this concept put into action. Ask your friend.

I found out long ago that a person reveals what they truely are under stress. With all your smarts this is what you are reduced to when you are pressed to the limit. Humanism is but a mask you put on but we know what you really look like.