Actually I think the analogy is near perfect. Both Cars and Guns are mechanical devices that when used improperly or not treated with respect can become VERY deadly. There are millions of guns in this country. There are also millions of cars in this country. The funny thing is that more people die in car wrecks than in gun fights... so maybe we should outlaw private ownership of motor vehicles?

The airbag/handgun analogy isn't quite as good, but it's still works. Both can be life savers in an emergancy situation, both are something you hope you'll never need to use, but both are something good to have, just in case the worst should happen...

Thats funny, I use my guns for lots of things, other than killing people...

I call bullshit on this one.

Pride has nothing to do with it. What if Mr. Bad Guy wants more than just your TV? What if he wants to rape your girlfriend/wife/mom/sister/daughter? You have no idea why he's in your house, and giving him the benifit of the dout isn't too smart if you ask me...

I mentioned this in the firearms topic in general disscussion, but I'll say it again here. When you're out on the streets, using a gun to defend yourself should be your VERY LAST RESORT. You should run if possible and avoid confrontation. BUT, when someone breaks into your home, things change. You have to assume that the invader is out to harm you and your family. I wouldn't hesitate to kill a home invader, not for one second.

I think the AK-47 argument is a weak one. As others have pointed out, I can kill you just as dead with a pistol or a shotgun, so what differance does it make?

As for the background check, I agree with you, and in fact, to buy ANY gun, you do have to have a background check. There is a loop-hole in the law however that I feel needs to be closed: Used Guns. If I buy a gun, I have to have a background check. But say after a few years I decide to sell that gun, I can sell it to anyone without doing a backgrond check on them. I think you should have to prefrom a background check anytime a firearm changes ownership, not just when you buy one new from the dealers...

The goverment. I bet the Jews would have loved to have had AKs when the Nazis came knocking on their doors...

Because, sadly, in the real world bad things can happen to good people.

I'm talking about violent crime rate, that includes murder, assualt, and rape.

Also, I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that a crime has to involve a gun to be considered a crime? So it's okay if I kill you with bow or sword, but not a gun?

So what? Alot of people have a hard time, that doesn't mean it's okay to break into someones house.

Minion, you seem that think that criminals are really a bunch of nice guys at heart, that they're simply mis-understood. I don't buy that...

What are you trying to say here, that all gun owners are fat chain-smokers? LOL...

I'd like to see some actual numbers here. I don't think that the US has as high a crime rate per person as what most people seem to think it does...

I wish there were some sort of "gun education" in public schools. We teach kids how to be safe with sex, but not with guns... whats up with that?

I can only assume that you're joking... crime (including murder) has been around long before firearms...

I can refute that. It's simple. Guns don't cause crime. They are simple objects. Sometimes guns are used in crimes, but they are never the cause of the crime. I'm suprized that more people don't understand this...

Criminals, by definiton, don't obey the law. So what makes you think that they'll obey gun laws?

I believe that you are either justified in killing someone, or you aren't. The weapon that you use is irrelavlent...

Again, I don't understand this line of thought, that it's "honorable" to kill someone with a blade, but "cowardly" to do the same thing with a bullet... the end result is the same, so what differance does it make?

I agree, and I'm actually thinking about changing my offical political party to Libertarian myself, LOL...

I'm not sure if thats true or not, but if it is, it's very sad...

When I was in middle school they offered a gun safety coarse and at the end of it I received a gun safety card... before I left that middle school the program was coming to an end. This is what happens when you have people in charge of a school who are Anti-gun; the basics involved in using a firearm are not taught to our children.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

It is a bad thing. It's bad because kids that have no fucking idea what they're doing sometimes get their hands on guns. There'd be fewer "accidents" if kids were told how to properly handle a firearm...

Sometimes I'm still a little surprised at some things due to my not being from the US. Here it'd be laughable to teach kid's gun safety, or how to shoot etc. as a matter of course in public school. But apparently it's just the opposite wherever David and Gumby are..

On the subject of killing intruders because they are 'the bad guys': There are degrees to being a bad person or criminal. I think Minion's point is that just because someone will steal (bad), does not mean that they will rape/murder (more bad). So the argument that they *might* do worse than steal, so you ought to kill 'em, y'know, just in case, sounds a bit harsh to me. Shoplifters aren't executed for a reason, and so on.

On the subject of availability of firearms: Yeah, weapons are easily bought illegaly. My argument against this, is that if every joe sixpack didn't buy gun(s), then there would be a whole hell of a lot less made. A whole hell of a lot less stolen/lost/resold illegaly. Those illegaly obtained weapons have to come from somewhere, and they are only made because there is a legal demand for them.

On the subject of 'guns don't kill people': If you are in a confrontation, and someone pulls a weapon it escalates to situation. What might have been a fist fight turns into a killing. So one's response of carrying a weapon, and pulling it when they are 'in trouble' has a great chance of increasing their risk in that situation. I've been in this kind of situation before, and what was a manageable situation got immediately out of control because someone wanted to pull a weapon.

And just so we are clear, I don't think that guns should be banned. I think that the population should think a little more clearly about why they are buying and using them. I hear an awful lot of excuses about owning them, maybe instead of excusing the behaviour you might examine for yourself why you 'need' them.

Also, what other uses for your guns have you found? I'm reminded of Homer trying to get a cat out of the tree... You cook with them? Clean with them? Seriously, as far as I know, they only do one thing, put a hole in whatever you shoot 'em at. Please elaborate on all the other practicle things you do?

Because kids should have access to guns! Okay!

Man, I love it when people don't read my entire post. Go back and read the very next line that you neglected to quote.

I think it has mopre to do with how much more easily someone can convince themselves to shoot someone over say beating them to death with a baseball bat. The former jsut requires pulling a trigger form a relatively safe distance whereas the latter means you need to get up close to summon and put a lot of physical effort into ending up with lot more blood and sweat on you as a result. Not to mention the greater physchological commitment required to hit somone over and over as opposed to pulling a trigger once. And the whole fact that guns don't offer a lot of option on how lethal the force is you use. I mean there's really only one option if things have escalated to the point of gun drawing as you can't really just knock someoen out with one.

Nigga plz, if I carry anything bigger than a 9mm automatic, I'm already outgunning the police. Your standard shotgun is heavier firepower than what most beat cops would use (though they have to get it off the gun rack).

Besides, if citizens can't own anything that can penetrate Level I armor, how are we supposed to effectively rebel? :'D

The simple solution to this problem would be giving police better body armor, and better firearms, but that costs cash money, and lobbyists love pushing peacenik issues that get the standard police caliber down to 9mm from 45 cal.

It's not a matter of letting kids have guns, it's a matter of shattering the illusion that guns are toys. Something that can only be properly done by a symbol of authority, like your parents.

Maybe it shouldn't be a school thing, but parents with guns should teach their kids how to use them, and why they shouldn't mess with them. Also locked, all that sort of thing.

Shoplifters, on the other hand, are invited onto the property. The same can't be said for a home invader. You also have a clearly defined area of intent with a confirmed shoplifter. With a home invader, the intent could be any number of things. This is why the severity of self-defense on the behalf of the property owner must be entrusted to him or her, to practice at his or her discretion.

This is true. That does not, however, eliminate the demand for black market firearms, which will then come from outside of the country, usually in the form of Soviet Surplus and 3rd World knockoffs. The end result, then, is less firearms overall, but more dangerous firearms.

Use it as a crutch. Clearly you hate cripples.

The way you put it makes alot more sense than the way Gumby and Mr. Numbers presented their argument. I still disagree that it's a great idea to be gung ho about teaching kids how to use guns, but then maybe I have a different idea of what age group 'kids' encompasses.

Too many people blame firearms for bad things. Saying guns kill people is like saying pencils cause spelling mistakes.

I can't believe I posted in the political palace ._.

Yeah, but pencils weren't made to butcher vocabulary.

If I see another "Guns don't kill people" post, it will be deleted.

Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people.

bullets + high velocity kills people!

Holy shit, I think you may have come up the worst analogy ever. Let's outlaw rocks, they aren't meant for killing, but you can kill people with them. Hell let's outlaw XBOXES, they are also not meant for killing, but you could kill someone by dropping it on their head.

Cars cause deaths, but that's not their purpose. You aren't going to buy a car because of it's perfect grandma killing abilities, you are going to buy a car or vehicle that suits your transport needs. Whether it be a family car for taking the kids to school and sport, a van for deliveries, a ute for carrying shit in the tray or just a small car for travelling for work. Cars aren't meant for killing.

Comparing guns to knives isn't even all that logical. Most knives that people are in possesion of are kitchen knives. Thier purpose? Cutting veggies, cutting pastry or cutting the chicken fillets into smaller pieces. Sure you can get the army knives and the flick-knives in which one of their purposes would be "protection" (stabbing people). But knives have many more practical uses and most would not include killing or stabbing.

Guns however, what purpose do they have? Shooting and killing. You aren't going to buy a gun for it's ability to cut vegetables, you are going to buy s gun for it's ability to kill people. All guns have no other uses than shooting, whether it be shooting cans, shooting animals or humans. You are damaging everything you shoot, you aren't going to shoot something to help it.

What gets me is the pointlessness of so much gun violence. Unfettered access to high powered weapons can turn the most unambitious, offkilter dim-wit into a mass murderer. Would Mr Seattle Pizza deliverer cum last action hero have bothered to kill all those people if it wasn't so damn easy?

It is hard to hear the endless parade of rampage stories and not think that some kind of robust control scheme needs to be implemented and enforced to keep guns out of the hands of the asylum crowd.

That is correct, however, how is the home owner suposed to be able to sort the semi-bad guys from the really nasty bad guys at 3am in the dark?

I don't think so. Take weed for example, there is no legal demand for it, but it's still easy to find. Also, prohibition was another example of this. It would be the same with firearms...

You are 100% correct. The ONLY time it's okay to "shoot first, ask questions later" is in the event of a home invasion. As I said before, when you're out on the streets, your gun is your very last resort, you don't pull your gun unless you're going to die if you don't shoot. In reality, carrying a gun is only a tiny part of the "self-defense" puzzle. There's alot more to being safe than just having a pistol. Its a good idea to carry things like a cell phone or flashlight. Learning a martial art is also a great idea. I've been practicing TaeKwonDo for a few years now, and I hope that if I ever have to defend myself, I can use my fist instead of my pistol. The problem with relying on the gun alone, is that if your only tool is a hammer, all your problems will start looking like nails...

What does 'need' have to do with it? I hear this alot "you don't NEED a gun"...

I hope I never NEED one. However, it is possible that I will one day, and if that day comes I want to be prepared. Also, there are many reasons why I WANT but don't NEED one. Target shooting and hunting mainly. Isn't that enough reason?

I've listed "other uses" already many times in this thread... but here goes:

Hunting
Target Shooting
Collecting
Self Defense

When did I say that? They shouldn't, however the fact of the matter is that sometimes they do, and then bad things happen because they don't know what to do in that kind of situation. I like the way that Bradylama puts it, they need someone to teach them that firearms are NOT toys...

Once again I agree. As I said, having a gun is only a small part of being able to protect yourself... if you're only tool is a gun you're very limited in what you can do...

When I say teach kids about guns, I don't mean take them down to the range and have them fire off a few rounds, I mean teach them the saftey basics like "don't point a gun at people"...

Collecting isn't a use.

"Oh, hay! What do you use that gun for?"
"Oh collecting!"
"Right, what do you collect with it?"
"Guns.."

You can collect guns, but guns can't be used for collecting.

CetteHamsterLa: Hitting someone over and over with a baseball bat to kill them is murder. Shooting someone because they are shooting at you is self defense. You make it sound like I as someone who wants a gun to defend my home that I am just out to kill any jackass who breaks into my home. You are dead wrong. I know when a gun necessary and when it is not. Anyone who has been properly taught about firearms knows this as well. This is another reason why our children should receive gun training.

peeack, all American children should be taught respect for a firearm. You seem to think they should never touch them which is stupid. I fired a 30/30 when I was 8. That gun has a lot of kick for a child that age and I have always had a healthy respect for guns. This prevents kids from wanting to play with something that is very much not a toy.

PUG1911: You make it sound like every time someone breaking into a home that the people who are armed will kill this person. That is not the case, if I have to draw a weapon on someone who has broken into my home I would not fire unless it was warranted, ie they have their own gun pointed at me, they try and charge me, or any other aggressive action for that matter. If they turn and run, that is the end of it and I will leave them to the cops to catch them. Gun owners are not cold blooded killers like so many people like to make us out to be. My primary use for a firearm would be target practice, a fine use of a firearm. I also like to hunt, again another use for a firearm that is not used against another human being. But do not think that I will hesitate when some shitbag violates my rights that I will not stand up for myself.

NovaX: I can kill you with just about anything. A sword for example is designed to kill people, a gun however can be designed to do more than. You act as though all guns are used to kill people, the simple fact is that very few of the guns sold in the US are used in violent crimes.

Funny thing is that more people drive a car then own a gun too, but please keep doing your number spinning...

Double Post:
So wait, swords can't be designed for self protection, but guns... can?

Seriously what other use do they have other than killing? Hunting is killing, target practice is just that, practicing for killinga target. And if, as you say, very few guns are used in violent crimes, the simple fact is they are not being used. Guns can't be used in a non-violent manner.

A sword was designed explicitly for fighting with other humans. Firearms however can be designed for hunting as well as weapons of war. So please do not twist my words.

So people never fought wars while using swords or hunted with them either?

This isn't quite the same argument as sex education, so don't try to make it out to be. Obviously it depends on age level, but a kid that knows how to use a gun, what a gun case is, how to undo a gun lock, how to safety off, load and fire, is going to be more danger to others. You know how there's that whole argument that kids are still emotionally developing into their late twenties? Well, I think adolescents with guns is just as bad an idea as trying to lower the drinking age to 18.

Most adolescent judgment is already impaired, so why tempt fate? It's an assumption that just because you can do something, you should. I for one would predict a severe increase in not only gun related violence (crimes of passion) but also a basic increase in criminality. Not by virtue of guns being violent implements, but because you're sanctioning the means of their use by people not sufficiently mature to see that they're put to good use.

Roger roger. Makes it a whole lot easier to trace/track down/incarcerate.

Respect != use.

I got taught not to run out on the road, cause I could get my arse run over. I wasn't taught to drive at age eight, to demonstrate the power of an automobile. Poor analogy I guess, but you can see my point (probably not though). What purpose does an eight year old have ever touching a gun? Here Jimmy, I'm going to teach you how to shoot guns! So you'll no never to shoot guns! I don't get it.

hurrr.