Oh, yeah. I know. I was just insisting on you arguing on your own terms. Opening up the intertextual can of worms is something that irritates me even when very knowledgeable people do it, and it's something that (you'll admit, so I'm not just patronizing) you're weaker regarding.

Yes, but if we're aiming at the discovery of truth here and Lord'sSword has found his in a conservative (however much that may be), closed reading of the text, I feel like you're just being unnecessarily specific and harsh here without being productive. Maybe it's throwing off the topic? I don't know. That's how it strikes me, no offense.

Oh, and Lord'sSword, I'm on your side. Don't get me wrong, I'm a theological conservative.

How would you know, though, had I not said I'm not a Bible fan?

There are theologians out there that know it backwards and forwards, but are not Christian.

If you're looking for specific comments, I'd refer you to the numerous posts disregarding the Old Covenant-New Covenant concept, the most recent of which is on the last page. Also, though it was painting with a broad brush on my part, it seems that most people who throw out some of the criticisms that you used are weaker on such matters than I'd prefer.

Again, that's no genuine jab against you, since you clearly have some grasp of the text, whatever your actual verdict may be on its truth. That's all.

If I've been brusque with my comments, then I do feel a bit bad. As I've mentioned previously, religion is a touchy subject. As far as 'truth' goes, what is that exactly? I just don't like someone else implying that truth is an absolute term that isn't defined in the mind of the individual.

No, I am not being specific at all. If anything, I am being far too general...but I think I understand what you mean. As far as being productive goes, I don't really see how your comments are productive. LordSword continually makes his own comments and doesn't need you to poorly defend him without offering additional commentary.

No offense taken. However, it seems a bit presumptuous of you to keep chiming into this thread without offering any fodder for this discussion. If you have an argument, please feel free to contribute. Otherwise, pipe down.

Thanks, I knew if I stood my ground long enough the rest of my spiritual body (Romans 12:4) would kick into gear. Stories of heroes
in the faith has taught me this much and more.

I have yet to mention my occult background. I have "practiced" several other belief systems (mainly new age) and that is a part of my life I am especially ashamed of. I did some bad stuff and I knew it was bad but my past belief systems never aligned with my conscience, this is the reason for my current position.

I am aquainted with hinduism, buddahism, islam, and even the satanic following. ALL of them require people to "earn" the favor of their associated deitys through "correct" living and or practice of the given system.

I continue to stress freedom time and again because the bible teaches the we can be free from such systems by accepting the fact that there is nothing we can do to earn our way into happiness & heaven. Its free when you give up your way, place God first and ask Him to save you through His plan through is plan through Jesus Christ.

How about you give God a chance with a simple request for forgivness of the bad things you've done & a request to be saved through Him being in charge.
You will get immediate evidence from your decision as I did because you are given a gift (1 Corinthians 6:19).

Those other systems left me wanting and empty because there is never enough you can do and we are left with no evidence of any eternal reward for efforts.

Here is a great source on truth: http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_P...y/TD1W1099.pdf

Which religions other than Christianity have you practiced? Not the Occult. Genuine, widely-accepted religions.

What do you think the 10 Commandments are? What do you think RELIGION is?

Do you honestly think that Christianity is EXEMPT from this? Your deity essentially says: "If you do not follow my rules, and if you do not love me, you're gonna PAY, boy."

What are you smoking, LordSword?

...

What do I even say to this.

Do you understand anything you read, LordSword? Go back and read that.

"You're free if you do everything God says."

How about you start minding your goddamned business. Pray to whatever you want, and I'm cool with it.

Start recommending shit I should try to get on your god's good side, and I start to lose it.

MY recommendation? Get educated. Start respecting other people and THEIR choices. (How many times have I said this to you, LordSword. You're absolutely RIDICULOUS)
Like what?

FREE IPODS?

Yea, thats probably because you decided to try something from the "Occult," as you said.

There are a lot of half-wits out there.

If you're trying on religious shoes to see which one best suits your needs, there's no harm in it. You're exploring yourself and your options.

But DO NOT tell people what they SHOULD and SHOULD NOT DO. One day, maybe you will understand.

We all know the New Covenant ridiculousness was made up by that blasphemer, Saul of Tarsis, anyway.

Yahweh was talking to Jews. Let's please remember that gentiles have to make up gods out of men in order to feel included.

None but you put me in bind. I could spend more than a lifetime trying to get just one system right. Your request is not humanly possible to carry out. My request takes only a moment. If I am wrong what will it cost you?

A guide that shows how badly we need a God to save us.

But His love is not earned though some act on our part.

I was big on pot, but now I am high on God.


I'm free in my country so long as I obey the laws. Whats the difference?

If my God was not real you have no reason to get mad. Why get angry at some loonie who lives in a make believe world?

Your problem is that on some level this discussion is important to you cause you do believe there is a God, my book says you do as well.


My religion means war in all aspects of life to me. From the moment I wake up the war is on against everything that seeks to undermine my walk with God. Most often the fight is against myself but in times like this, its a struggle of ideas. I continue the fight cause it makes me a better Christian.
People who come against me force me to practice my faith better.

I am fan of the R-type games and many here remind me of the drive it takes to play. One man, one cause against so much opposition. Some here tell me to basically sell out and try some other "religion" but where is the compromise of their part. Its a war but not against you guys, my struggle is against the very reality that has been given for you perceive.

What authority says I am wrong anyway? I asked this a few posts back and got no answer. You (the reader) dont know & don't care, your happy where you are being plugged in to something thats sucking the life out of you.

You don't need religion. You need a therapist.

Did you just seriously compare video games to religion?

Dude. GET A THERAPIST. IMMEDIATELY.

You dolt, there is no "right" or "wrong" opinion, provided no one hurts one another OVER their opinions.

You're stomping all over everyone who doesn't believe in what you believe. That's so wrong, I can't even begin to explain. You seem not to understand though. Maybe if you got a therapist....

God can be neither proven nor disproven. Therefore, it's all a matter of speculation. See how that works?
"Sucking the life out of me?"

First, you said atheists "had never been through hard times" because we hadn't found god.

Then, you say that we're having our lives sucked out of us.

Who the bloody FUCK are you to judge how I lead my life?

You seriously embody most of what I hate about evangelism. Congratulations.

My religion means direction for me. My guide, the Bible, offers direction on what is right and wrong. It also gives guidance on defining the sources of right and wrong. What authority says its wrong for me to disagree and dialogue with people with opposing views.

I've sat down face to face with Muslims, Atheists, Jehova Whitnesses and hashed it out with them and they respected me more when I had answers for their questions and questions about their views. We even launched belief proposals against each other as well and walked away with no ill will. Often they are honorable opponents with well reasoned convictions because they have rule books too. You have no source of rules leaving you with no defense, no structure and no direction thus I offer you my own. Structure is the basis for all freedom in every discipline imagined. Please consider mine.


Our bodies are not made to cope with the stress of anger. I was raised by an angry atheist and have met many more afflicted with the same malady. Anger does suck the life out of you and it makes you a prisoner in its own way.

I won't consider yours because you won't fucking consider mine.

FIRST of all, people of opposing religions are not "opponents." what the fuck is wrong with you to think that they are.

I don't need to justify my lack of faith to you what-so-ever. I have structure and I have morals. You don't know jack shit about me, and the instant you presume to know anything about my personal moral structure is the second I call bullshit on you.

I will repeat myself AGAIN so maybe this time you will understand!

Being an atheist does not mean you do not have a moral structure. It does not mean atheists are bad people. It does not mean atheists are "lost" or "need help."

It means we've thought through our religious options and decided NOT TO FUCKING GO WITH ANY because we -JUST. DON'T. BELIEVE. IN. IT.-

You can think I am lost, you can think I'll burn in hell - you won't know shit until you die. Only in death will anyone know any "truth," and until then, we can only speculate on what happens. I mean, hell. We just may die, go into the ground, and that's that. We may not even THINK after death as a "soul" or whatever voodoo shit people believe in. We very likely just fucking die. I know, I know. It's a hard thing to accept! Not everyone can, I guess. Thus: religion.

I am a good person, and I work hard to do the good things in life, both for others and for myself. I'm not perfect, but no human is. The only difference between you and I is that you use your faith as a reason to be good and strong. I use myself.

What the fuck do you know about my anger, O Ye Presumptious One?

Because I use the word "fuck" or "shit" or ANY OTHER profanity does not mean I am ANGRY. I'm not. I assure you, if I were really angry, I wouldn't be here right now, typing this crap.

I am disappointed that there are humans like you who exist in the twenty-first century. You're the reason wars are fought. You're the reason people ramp up emotions towards one another.

Your religion is NOT RIGHT, as no religion (or even LACK of religion!) IS RIGHT. THERE. IS. NO. SUCH. THING. AS. A. "RIGHT." OPINION.

Additionally, why would you even want to deny a human emotion. You make no fucking sense.

It's very unfortunate you don't study a bit of your cultural history. You could learn much about the great but sadly forgotten secularists, Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin, the two men to actually organize the march on Washington. As for Dr. King, it's a very good thing he only took a very small portion of the book of Exodus and used it as a metaphor when he said, "my people should be let go." Had he quoted the entire book he would have followed, "And once my people are free, they are then permitted to steal your land, rape your women children, and kill everyone who gets in their way."


I stand for the Iliad, a document that has proven its worth, can be seen & researched by others and discussed openly to the benefit of all.

I stand for Das Kapital, a document that has proven its worth, can be seen & researched by others and discussed openly to the benefit of all.

I stand for Mein Kampf, a document that has proven its worth, can be seen & researched by others and discussed openly to the benefit of all.


You're right, many of us only have those silly, unreliable things like reason and logic and intellectual honesty and literature and scepticism and morality and ethics and science and politics and economics, mere piffle when having a discussion about humanity and its role in the universe.


Even virtuous men can perform just acts for wicked reasons. If you need a religious warrant to keep you from murdering or stealing or to perform good deeds in the name of your faith, then very clearly this should not be confused with morality.


Science, reason and the others I listed above are to be wholly credited in finally giving humans the understanding and courage of stepping away from that horrible period we call the dark ages and leading us into the age of enlightenment. Something we can all be grateful for. Thanks to science we no longer have to burn women to death for casting spells on neighbours and people like J. K. Rowling can even make a very good career writing novels depicting fictional wizards.




This is a weighted statement since you should have included theist to complete the definition of agnostic. Also, your use of "arrogant" is simply a red herring. Since atheism is a term devoid of any philosophical content I'll use the more appropriate worldview positions of the atomists, materialists or the physicalists. I'm here to tell you that arrogance has no relation with someone who holds this philosophical worldview which merely describes the universe as being made up of atoms or "stuff" and does not contain anything immaterial such as souls. It's a very serious and interesting philosophical view started by Democritus and Epicurus and persists today in Daniel Dannett, dare I say myself, and many others.

Now that you've broken out of your Socratic defense strategy, maybe you could share how your agnosticism works with regards to Santa Claus, Big Foot, Russell's Teapot, Sherlock Holmes, the inexaustable laundry list of other imaginery folk figures and the thousands of dead Gods which lie burried in that mass grave called mythology.

If God could be disproven then the logical consequence of this would see atheism as a truism or a tautology and theism as entirely nonsensical. Since God, or anything for that matter, cannot be disproven, anyone who describes themselves as an atheist is in a strong language describing themselves as agnostic with a lean towards a disbelief in the existence of the object in question (90-10). The problem of agnosticism is that it gives a false idea that the existence of the "thing" in question has an equal 50-50 chance of either existing or not existing, which is, I'm sure you must agree on, an entirely false impression. If you disagree then I can only describe you as a fundamental agnostic (strictly 50-50) which is a rather odd and frankly hopeless view.

I think it's dumb not to at least believe that there might be a remote chance of some higher power out there. I wouldn't ever want to be an atheist. Because my imagination wouldn't allow it anyhow. I have the imagination, and the open mindedness to believe in a God. To say that without God, I'd be an immoral individual is idiotic as well. Being a Christian didn't give me my morals. My morals are just part of what make me a Christian. I have no problem with people who are atheist, or agnostic. But seriously, if they can get in other people's faces about there being no God, why can't I get in there faces about there being a God? There really isn't a difference at this point. I've been finding both cliques of people to be equally annoying as of late.

Interesting point Smelnick. Imagination is a very powerful thing sometimes. When I was a child, my imagination was vast and God flourished in my mind's eye. As time went on, I simply couldn't keep keep pretending.

I don't want to be an atheist either. I'd love if God existed and it was irrefutable.

Agreed. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like without the suggestion of God. Would it better, worse?

What I find annoying is certain people at my church. People go to church to seek perfection, both spiritually or whatever. But there is actually people at my church who judge other people, who are coming from a life of drugs and shit, and their coming to church to get clean. Basically my point is, you don't need to be perfect and then come to church, you come to church to get perfect.

How so?

Demonstrate, will you, how the existence or nonexistence of an unknowable omnipotent being can be said to be more or less likely in any fashion whatsoever past your own inherent bias.

Fuckin' clown.

Are you agnostic as to the existence of Invisible Pink Unicorn?

I personally think whether or not one is theistic leaning agnostic or atheist leaning agnostic really depends on whether or not one accept solipsism as a valid argument when it comes to the discussion of observable physical realities.

Atheism is the denial of anything existing outside of our realm of observation. Are you arguing that because we don't see something it can't exist? How very solipsist of you. :cheese:

These are purported to exist within our realms of perception and not outside of our ability to grasp.

Are you just trying to use big words to make yourself sound smart or is there an actual point hidden in there?

I don't believe in any sort of supernatural being, though I don't see any reason why I should reject the possibility that one should exist.

PS: I'm a determinist (and it's a terribly boring belief).

Athiesm is a term that describes somebody who does not believe in God or deities. I say that if there is no evidence that something exists then there is no reason to believe it exists, not that it can't exist.

It's also a possibility that a Nigerian prince really did e-mail me and ask me to help him transfer his money.

Where are you getting this definition?? =/

I always figured atheists to be people who didn't believe in any god. Agnostic to me is someone who believes there might be something, but not in any particular one

The whole Pink Unicorn gambit is so played out, guys, honestly. A pink unicorn is not significantly sillier than any other theoretical entity, I see no particular flaw in a sustained indecision re: pink unicorns. Agnosticism is not a pick-and-choose philosophy, it's a concrete decision to admit that I don't fuckin' know!

Indeed! But statistically we can observe many hundreds of instances of such requests and determine that the likelihood of such requests being valid is very low. This is science! However, we cannot outright deny the existence of any secret princes in Nigeria, we have to way to determine that. To say outright that no Nigerian prince could ever conceivably send email is unprovable and rather unscientific indeed.

You gotta admit though, its got a nice ring to it.

I defined it that way as to distinguish between people who simply don't believe because they don't know (agnostics) and those who actively deny the existence in some supernatural being.

See, that's the thing. Religious people see the universe as evidence that some sort of God(s) exist. I imagine it seems as self-evident to them as my belief in the electron existing is to me.