So then you must also believe the only way one may be a follower of Jesus is to hate your mother and father and siblings and you have also, I'm assuming, sold all of your earthly possessions. Or is this something we don't have to do anymore since we live in a different period?

Religion is nothing more than spiritual fast food for the undereducated and credulous. It could just as easily adopt the slogan, Your Way Right Away!

I should also say that is a very disappointing reply. You openly challenged me to a debate to which I provide a roughly 1,000 word essay including why I believe religion to be false and the best you can do is respond to an irrelevant ad hominine and provide a few short incomprehensible words regarding something I suspected already; your belief in religion stems only from the comfort it offers to you. What else can I do then but assume for the moment I have the stronger case. I gave to you I didn't count how many points to retaliate on which were ignored.



Despite being so made that i cannot believe, I am according to at least one theory, created in the image of God. Which makes the image of God rather problematic does it not? The consequence of this is that even before I was conceived I was singled out in God's plan to be condemed for thought-crimes I did not choose to commit and could not have evaded. So regardless of what I may accomplish in my life in terms of spirituality and ethics I have an eternity of hellfire to look foward to. I suppose I can take some solace in knowing that God loves me.

Bollocks.

I couldn't agree more. I feel that this an important undercurrent to all modern religion and a reason why quite a lot of it pisses me off. Its anthropomorphized hogwash to coincide with man's limited ego and hopes for immortality. It offers him NOTHING that he wouldn't be able to find himself. Morever, it gives people a drug that they become dependent upon.

Even in the Mesopotamian religion began the time when 'blessings' could be bought from the church, for a price. Things such as fertility of women, land and welfare were things that the church had 'jurisdiction' over...but it only worked out through monetary compensation. Funny how that works out.

As George Carlin so eloquently describes God and the despicable materialistic nature of religion: George Carlin - Celebrity Atheist List

I can really see why religion is such a bane on human existence now.

Awesome. Finally you understand. Now isn't it nice to be on the same page? Now you see why I believe what I do. Because I like it. Does there really need to be any more of a reason?

Not really, and there's no reason for anyone to try and dissuade you from it. You wouldn't like it if an evangelical Christian was preaching to you, JackyBoy, and I'm sure Smelnick appreciates your preaching just as much.

Did you see how the Pope just recently dropped Limbo? Limbo is over now. Unbaptised children don't go there anymore to spend an eternity in loneliness and isolation because they didn't get the sprinkle of water. You can relax. No you can't. That's where millions of parents thought their dead children had gone for hundreds of years. Frightened, upset, it was real to them. It was cruel to tell them this nonsense to begin with it's even more to cruel to say, afterall it doesn't exist.

But nevermind that. After hundreds of years of being told this fabrication we can still be sure the universe was design so you could be here right now to download videogames off the internet. You are the object. And despite the fact that you were created a worm, a sinner, a wretch, the cosmos cares what happens to you.

I see we can agree on one thing. Religion is a bane to our species. Humans will be far better off once we have emancipated ourselves from these horrible bronze-aged, Palestinian myths.

I take some comfort from the fact that humans at one time used to believe in polytheism. Belief in many Gods. We then started to believe in monotheism. Belief in a single God. So you see, we're getting closer to the truth. This is progress.




I went jogging earlier this week and noticed these signs all over Guelph, my home city. How long they have been there I can't say. These photos are taken just outside my apartment which I snapped a few minutes ago. Even Canada isn't safe from this theocratic bullshit. I'm very tempted to write a letter to my local newspaper, The Guelph Mercury, to complain about it.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...h_IMG_0072.jpg

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...h_IMG_0073.jpg

I don't think we can even agree on the use of sarcasm on the internet. :(

INTERNET RELIGION IS SERIOUS BUSINESS GUYS!

Sarcasm eh? Are you trying to fool me or the guy that lives down the street? I'd give you a 1 out of 10 but I don't think you were even trying. I've been meaning to ask actually, how would you describe yourself anyway? A Christian atheist leaning towards agnosticism perhaps? You have a really interesting position I've been able to gather from your replies. The, all you bitches are wrong I don't have an opinion, argument. It could be some post-modern philosophical view I haven't manage to research yet.

I'm not sure why this is the second comment where you come in and essentially mock the discussion going on.

Sure, the discussion isn't always the most intelligent, but it's nice to see any genuine conversation about something so widely interpreted.

In fact, any religion thread where the monkeys aren't slinging their poo at each other is a good one (ie: insulting each other left and right). You should encourage the discussion - not spam in it.

I wasn't speaking of the thread in general. I think it's awesome that there can be intelligent discussion about this. I was merely referring to RacinReaver's sarcasm and the response it.

I have no right? I stated awhile back that my religion means freedom for me. The world system quite often tries to put chains on people with the system of being P.C. but a Christian is not in the business of keeping freedom to themselves. A Christian is supposed to declare the freedom through Christ. (Mark 16:15, Matthew 5:16,
2 Corinthians 10:5)

Throughout history everywhere the church has gone, people have become free. Through Christian education & moral conduct the people of the democratic governments of the world have enjoyed freedoms that other religious systems don't have. Even our sciences have the Christian faith to thank because of the freedoms the belief system provides.

In the U.S. my freedoms come from God not people. THANKFULLY I have the right to speak which the admins of this forum respect. You have the right to ignore my posts.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Luke 11:34
Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your body also is full of darkness.

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

And you wonder why people dislike you folks as a group.

You've been bred to shit all over everyone else' religion. You realize that MOST Christians keep their religion to themselves? Right?

Speaking of silly things the Bible tells you to do:

Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
But in the Old Testament vs. the New Testament, we suddenly have a WHOLE NEW GOD!

Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."

I think you better start being less selective about the directions you follow when it comes to obeying the Bible and the word of god.

Tell me about the Crusades and how you can excuse that.

This nation - the one you live in - was founded for "religious freedom." Which means everyone here gets the right to believe what they want. (Of course, provided they follow legal provisions)

I recommend you start living by this and respecting your brother and neighbor.

[b]In the U.S. my freedoms come from God not people.[/quote]
O, you're a JEM.

How can people like you even EXIST today. It's the twenty-first century. Sigh

You want to try to say this again in English?
I do. And you can ignore mine.

Ezekiel 25:17
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...Dawkins102.gif

Ugh. I hate people who quote single bible verses LordsSword. (Oh man, I just realized the irony of your name.)

I don't think the bible should be taken out of context that way. You shouldn't live your life by single verses. Take it as a whole. What is the whole passage saying, not the itty bitty little sentences within.

Also LOL Capo. I love the old testement. FIRE AND BRIMSTONE!!

Thats nearly impossible to do. The average religious follower won't look at the bible in its entirety for the fact that much of the teachings seem to run against each other or out of laziness. Much of the bible wasn't meant to be taken literally and thats where the problem of misperception becomes widespread. This leads to HUGE problems in ideological cohesion.

Much of the bible is contradictory, and leads people to believe that they need to both suffer and allow others to suffer in God's name to truly be "saved", hence the 'holy warrior' or one who struggles in the name of God.

However, there are people that well enough understand the teachings in the bible and make a point to slander it to gain control of others. Such as this fella.

http://www.gamingforce.org/forums/ge...tml#post501001

RainMan and Sassafrass, this is just a reminder not to be too overzealous about your knowledge of the Bible, religious history, and Christian theology. It makes you look as silly as I do when I try to grasp dynamics.

That being said, continue to contribute worthwhile sentiments in other areas, since (although I don't have the time here to contribute) I'm really enjoying everyone hashing out their differences. Thanks. Also, my apologies to Lord'sSword, who, despite not being my theological doppelganger, I feel like I should be aiding.

You know, when read as God being the source of reality and not as YHWH in the sky, this is actually quite a beautiful passage, I think. Reality favors the benevolent and strikes down those who are malevolent. What's wrong with that?

And as for you, LordsSword, declaring your freedom "through Christ" does not mean annoying the hell out of people around you. Your actions speak louder than your words. Meekly explain to people who ask you, "Why are you such a nice guy?" that your faith sustains you. That's enough to save those who would be saved.

Incidentally, I'm almost finished with the first five books (Genesis-Deuteronomy). Off to the prophets, next.

I don't read the Bible. I stole passages from a Christian site. =p (Though I know some about theology, I don't really toss it around. It's inconsequential. I agree with what you're saying.)

Don't mistake me for a Christian. I was just tossing back to him what he tossed at me. I am not zealous or anything. I don't really have much to be zealous in.

You have a good point though I am merely making general statements indicating how problems arise in the berth of a document which was constructed over the course of thousands of years. There is bound to be a point where old world views meet current world views and its a rather violent clash of idealogies, at times. Even more confounding as some 'impertinent' information is dropped to make way for modernity creating large gaps in the text.

No document is perfect and that someone should look at the bible as flawlessly constructed and therefore refuse to think outside of the document, perplexes me a great deal. I think I am zealous. Its definitely not a strong point but I still stand by my previous statements.

Another thing my religion means me is to me is courage. In the face of incredible odds. The Christian is called to stand up against the pressure of others to conform (Romans 12:2).

My faith tradition started with nonconformance and continues to this day. As a black man I have my brother in the faith Martin Luther King jr. to thank for his nonconformance. I am made free because he too made a stand in his day to speak out and not give in.

I stand for the Bible, a document that has proven its worth, can be seen & researched by others and discussed openly to the benefit of all.

Many here don't have anything to stand on at all but their collection of rumor, here-say and shifting information that constantly needs updating.

To me my book is a proven source of virtue but I have yet to see if my opponents seek to show the source from which they define what virtue is so as to show grounds for their judgments against me and my statements.
(Luke 6:42)
What makes YOUR opinions better than the bible? I bet you dont even know where your views come from even though it means "supreme authority over religious views" to you.

I know the origin of my views and thus my religion means strength in all situations as well because it doesn't seek to hide behind tough statements and a forceful position to convince others.

My religion is backed by centuries of researchable facts of its benefits to humanity. To those who are critical of the bible, what about your belief system? What is its track record? You probably don't care but I care about my belief system because at its heart it means caring. It means caring even if others hate me. My motivation is backed by caring for YOU your current state in life and your eternal position in relation to the God I believe in.

But see, this is exactly what I am talking about. This contradicts the hell out of itself. It is trying to promote a system of thought and living through uniformity. It encourages Christians to convert others into its own principle, en masse. This IS idealogical conformity for the masses, in its most pure form. Does anyone else see how this contradicts itself?

These FACTS change considerably with the changing of times. For instance, people were burned at the stake for saying the world was not the center of the universe in the sixteenth century. Though this isn't the case nowadays (thankfully), the fact that the bible was crafted through trial and error means that its anything BUT 'god's breath'.

But what is your basis for thinking that you are right? We all have gone to school and know that there is such a thing as a right & wrong answer to the basic facts of reality.
What body of knowlege do you turn to that says that I am wrong?

No the "practice" of the Christian faith has changed with the times. At the start believers died because they would not deny their beliefs. That was biblical.
Doing the same to others is not sanctioned by the bible at all which gives me comfort because its message does not change unlike P.C. culture we live in today.

An agnostic who's not arrogant enough to consider himself an atheist.

Look, LordSword.

You presume (probably out of your own ignorance) that the Bible alone teaches "right and wrong." Morality, if you will. Do you enjoy being ignorant?

I recommend - seriously recommend - that you try reading up on other religions, if anything for education.

No one is saying you have to BELIEVE in the religions you would read about, but I honestly think you need to explore the lines of religion a little more before you start believing everything people of your faith are spitting out to you.

If your pastor or whatever told you that the sky was red 100% of the time because the Bible said so, would you actually believe it?

There are so many religions out there that have some strong moral foundations. Christianity is not the one and only, believe you me. Since the beginning of man, there has been some basic foundations of "morality," however primitive. GOD did not set forth morality - humans did.

The Bible isn't exactly perfect when it comes to morality, either. If you'd like examples, please let me know. I know people don't enjoy scripture posted if it can be avoided, and I'd like to respect wishes (if you get my drift).

Maybe you'd even enjoy the line of philosophy, if you bothered trying to explore the world of ideas outside of your church.

There's so much out there to know, LordSword. It seems thoroughly depressing that you wouldn't explore it.